My assumption with how this Captain America stuff works is that
Part of it has to do with him being de-aged. Like, those Hydra affiliations were buried deep within his psyche, and he never really acted on any of that previously or acknowledged them or whatever. He was loyal to Hydra as young man, but when Hydra became literal Nazis, he was more loyal to his country and he fought against Hydra as a result. And then just, you know, kept fighting against Hydra.
But the de-aging process put him back in the mental state he was in before he went to war, and his loyalty to Hydra no longer seems like, well, the big problem that it would have been back when they were literal Nazis.
It's bullshit pseudoscience and doesn't really make me much happier about it, but that's what I'm thinkin'
Brevoort says he has been an undercover operative so unless he has only recently been doing that that, sadly, seems unlikely.
It certainly could be that he was under some sort of mentally-programmed cover that never got activated, which would save them from having to explain all the previous stuff. Something about him getting de-aged somehow triggered his activation or whatever. Still don't really like that though.
That would go against the but where they straight up say "This is Steve Rogers acting as himself." he's not being controlled or influenced by anyone according to Brevoort and Spencer. They go out of their way to clarify it isn't any fuckery and is the real deal Steve Rogers.
Which again, could be a lie!
But for now it is more likely to be the truth
Nah, not like typical Hydra brainwashing. Like something Steve, who was a registered card-carrying member of Hydra, specifically volunteered for. Like he was supposed to be on a temporary mission somewhere so he repressed his Hydra affiliations, but then something screwed up his intended trigger and whoops, he's stuck like that now.
My assumption with how this Captain America stuff works is that
Part of it has to do with him being de-aged. Like, those Hydra affiliations were buried deep within his psyche, and he never really acted on any of that previously or acknowledged them or whatever. He was loyal to Hydra as young man, but when Hydra became literal Nazis, he was more loyal to his country and he fought against Hydra as a result. And then just, you know, kept fighting against Hydra.
But the de-aging process put him back in the mental state he was in before he went to war, and his loyalty to Hydra no longer seems like, well, the big problem that it would have been back when they were literal Nazis.
It's bullshit pseudoscience and doesn't really make me much happier about it, but that's what I'm thinkin'
Brevoort says he has been an undercover operative so unless he has only recently been doing that that, sadly, seems unlikely.
It certainly could be that he was under some sort of mentally-programmed cover that never got activated, which would save them from having to explain all the previous stuff. Something about him getting de-aged somehow triggered his activation or whatever. Still don't really like that though.
That would go against the but where they straight up say "This is Steve Rogers acting as himself." he's not being controlled or influenced by anyone according to Brevoort and Spencer. They go out of their way to clarify it isn't any fuckery and is the real deal Steve Rogers.
Which again, could be a lie!
But for now it is more likely to be the truth
Except
This wouldn't be mental manipulation. This would be accidentally changing who Steve is on a fundamental level. So you can say Steve is acting as himself, but his self is now a different man.
It's the only way I can see them doing this story without ruining continuity and the character. It uses things introduced earlier in ways that make sense, and give the story an eventual out/way to fix things.
My assumption with how this Captain America stuff works is that
Part of it has to do with him being de-aged. Like, those Hydra affiliations were buried deep within his psyche, and he never really acted on any of that previously or acknowledged them or whatever. He was loyal to Hydra as young man, but when Hydra became literal Nazis, he was more loyal to his country and he fought against Hydra as a result. And then just, you know, kept fighting against Hydra.
But the de-aging process put him back in the mental state he was in before he went to war, and his loyalty to Hydra no longer seems like, well, the big problem that it would have been back when they were literal Nazis.
It's bullshit pseudoscience and doesn't really make me much happier about it, but that's what I'm thinkin'
Brevoort says he has been an undercover operative so unless he has only recently been doing that that, sadly, seems unlikely.
It certainly could be that he was under some sort of mentally-programmed cover that never got activated, which would save them from having to explain all the previous stuff. Something about him getting de-aged somehow triggered his activation or whatever. Still don't really like that though.
That would go against the but where they straight up say "This is Steve Rogers acting as himself." he's not being controlled or influenced by anyone according to Brevoort and Spencer. They go out of their way to clarify it isn't any fuckery and is the real deal Steve Rogers.
Which again, could be a lie!
But for now it is more likely to be the truth
Nah, not like typical Hydra brainwashing. Like something Steve, who was a registered card-carrying member of Hydra, specifically volunteered for. Like he was supposed to be on a temporary mission somewhere so he repressed his Hydra affiliations, but then something screwed up his intended trigger and whoops, he's stuck like that now.
I guess but that still seems unlikely given they are talking about his undercover status like it is has been a long term thing
And it fits well within the technically correct realm of being the "real Steve Rogers" but I personally wouldn't consider Steve being affected by being trigged from decades old mental tampering he had done as a much younger, and likely militant, man the real deal.
My assumption with how this Captain America stuff works is that
Part of it has to do with him being de-aged. Like, those Hydra affiliations were buried deep within his psyche, and he never really acted on any of that previously or acknowledged them or whatever. He was loyal to Hydra as young man, but when Hydra became literal Nazis, he was more loyal to his country and he fought against Hydra as a result. And then just, you know, kept fighting against Hydra.
But the de-aging process put him back in the mental state he was in before he went to war, and his loyalty to Hydra no longer seems like, well, the big problem that it would have been back when they were literal Nazis.
It's bullshit pseudoscience and doesn't really make me much happier about it, but that's what I'm thinkin'
Brevoort says he has been an undercover operative so unless he has only recently been doing that that, sadly, seems unlikely.
It certainly could be that he was under some sort of mentally-programmed cover that never got activated, which would save them from having to explain all the previous stuff. Something about him getting de-aged somehow triggered his activation or whatever. Still don't really like that though.
That would go against the but where they straight up say "This is Steve Rogers acting as himself." he's not being controlled or influenced by anyone according to Brevoort and Spencer. They go out of their way to clarify it isn't any fuckery and is the real deal Steve Rogers.
Which again, could be a lie!
But for now it is more likely to be the truth
Nah, not like typical Hydra brainwashing. Like something Steve, who was a registered card-carrying member of Hydra, specifically volunteered for. Like he was supposed to be on a temporary mission somewhere so he repressed his Hydra affiliations, but then something screwed up his intended trigger and whoops, he's stuck like that now.
I guess but that still seems unlikely given they are talking about his undercover status like it is has been a long term thing
And it fits well within the technically correct realm of being the "real Steve Rogers" but I personally wouldn't consider Steve being affected by being trigged from decades old mental tampering he had done as a much younger, and likely militant, man the real deal.
Man, I dunno how they can even DO this without at least some of what they've said being a technicality.
Brevoort says this adds a Hitchcockian element to the series whenever Steve is with other heroes as you know he is Hydra and has his own agenda but they don't and that covers are somewhat misleading.
Steve is shown trying to be a mediator in Civil War 2 between Tony and Carol
He is totally secretly instigating shit and making it worse between them so Hydra can gain a more stable foothold or something in the chaos
Just what I want from comics. Every time Steve Rogers is in the room, worrying about whose lives he's going to fuck up. Fear and mistrust: Captain America!
Fuck everything
Goodbye
+1
Options
MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
I mean there's still Sam Wilson's book, unless you've completely soured to all Spencer properties.
I know Blank has said he's still fine with Sam, but if this is the new status quo for Steve Rogers, it's going to be hard to completely avoid or ignore it. Every time Steve appears in anything, it's going to be couched in this stuff because this is who the character is now.
Spencer hints at Sam being affected by this in a major way and stepping up big time so If we are getting a garbage secret hydra plot at least we get Sam picking up Steve's newfound slack as the MU's premiere big damn hero
I will figuratively eat my hat if any of that isn't a fakeout
I'm late to this, but if it's a fakeout, then it's not a shocking reveal
Peter Parker is totally dead and Doc Ock is in his body.
Still a shocking story that turned out really good even if it turned out Peter was still in there almost immediately.
This is why I am cautiously optimistic. Still, just like the Superior Spider-Man, it's up to Marvel to sell this to me, and it's not an easy task.
I don't think it is comparable to Superior, myself
Peter died, but a mental record of him lived on in his head. So you got both Ock in his body and his eventual return without cheapening Ock as Spider-Man because he was the real deal the whole time and then willingly sacrificed himself.
In this case either Steve is Hydra, Steve is pretending to be Hydra or Steve has been changed to be or believe he is Hydra. All of these are bad options because the first is, well, the first. The second is a super guessable, unexciting toothless fakeout and the last means it isn't really Steve so it isn't really shocking or Earth shattering at all.
I am struggling to think of any other ways they could handle this.
I clicked on the spoiler. I should not have clicked on the spoiler.
I'm... Yeah I'll just ignore it until it goes away. It didn't work with Brand New Day (yet) but I'm hopeful it'll work with this. Even if it doesn't, I have tonnes of back issues to cherish forever.
I'm telling you guys I'm totally right about how they're gonna make this work.
Preparing a post to make three years from where I'll be all smug and brag about how smart I am.
I can see them making it a great story and a fascinating look into how Cap "actually" is.
But at the same time, they've it sounds like they've poisoned the very well this character came from and diluted their entire history. Its very pyrrhic, conceptually.
Superior Spider-man just changed the status quo going forward. It didn't claim to retroactively modify the character of Peter Parker throughout his history.
I'm telling you guys I'm totally right about how they're gonna make this work.
Preparing a post to make three years from where I'll be all smug and brag about how smart I am.
I don't think that makes it work though
Kobik changing his past means that it isn't really Steve Rogers so this is basically Evil Steve Rogers: Captain Hydra and there are no real stakes because it isn't really him.
Like, I fucking hate this story but they are telling it and have crossed the Rubicon so don't half-ass it now and go OH NO HAHA IT WAS AN ALTERNATE STEVE VIA COSMIC CUBE
If some future writer wants to do that then rock on but if this is the story they are set on telling, doing anything other than Steve being Hydra makes it toothless.
The more I think about it, the more I think it has to be
Kobik
I don't think this is possible, based on the epilogue of Remender's Captain America
Now, it's The Unknown Council for a reason, we can't be sure that it's Steve under the hood, but I think that's far more likely than there being 2 long-standing Avengers in Hydra who are longtime friends with Sam.
and this was a year and a half ago (October 2014), long before Kobik.
Pardon my bringing up the 90s, but is this totally the Crossing again? Didn't that reveal that the Tony Stark we all loved was super secretly evil the whole time and working for Kang? And he could only be defeated by ...Teen Tony!
There we go. Coming soon in Marvel NOW! Teen Steve, the new Nomad.
Pardon my bringing up the 90s, but is this totally the Crossing again? Didn't that reveal that the Tony Stark we all loved was super secretly evil the whole time and working for Kang? And he could only be defeated by ...Teen Tony!
There we go. Coming soon in Marvel NOW! Teen Steve, the new Nomad.
ooh
Bringing back around to my original theory about the big mysterious reveal
A survey team studying the rate the polar icecaps are melting makes a startling discover - Captain Steve Rogers, hero of the second World War, looking uncannily like Chris Evans
The world is shocked, but all available tests confirm, this is the real Captain America, frozen since 1945... so who is this person that's been claiming to be him for decades? CAP VERSUS CAP
Well I guess Marvel achieved what they probably wanted, publicity. This already has an article on Der Spiegel which is one of Germany's major news magazines.
I'd just like to remind everyone that Brevoort loves to say things that are technically true but are extremely misleading, and sometimes he just outright lies.
Remember how he said that Age of Ultron was absolutely not an alternate future story?
Spencer is saying the same exact things though.
Like they absolutely could be lying through their teeth (because he already did about what this book is really about and admits that) but why should we assume they are when this is a being treated like a big huge shocker that deserves EW and USA Today interviews.
Either they're total assholes and going for cheap controversy buys in a way Marvel hasn't done in a while or they are telling the truth and everything that Spencer says sounds like the latter.
Well, to be fair, if they went "Don't worry, this will get explained as a retcon or a trick, and Cap will remain an unblemished flower" they'd basically be telling us the end of the story before the second issue is even published.
Well in good Marvel news Jason Aaron is doing some RAD SHIT with his young Thor stuff in Mighty Thor
This two parter starred a Viking that got pissed Thor stole all of his glory and prayer to Loki to become mightier than even Thor
Well he and Thor brawl all across the Earth and run into or gather the attention of some interesting folks
The Ghost Rider of the Americas and his Spirit Bear
The Black Panther of Wakanda
The Princess of Atlantis
And the Iron Fist of K'un Lun
And the final page shows some primitive art of all of them, even Viking Hulk, assembled together while the narrator talks about how stories are endlessly retold
Well in good Marvel news Jason Aaron is doing some RAD SHIT with his young Thor stuff in Mighty Thor
This two parter starred a Viking that got pissed Thor stole all of his glory and prayer to Loki to become mightier than even Thor
Well he and Thor brawl all across the Earth and run into or gather the attention of some interesting folks
The Ghost Rider of the Americas and his Spirit Bear
The Black Panther of Wakanda
The Princess of Atlantis
And the Iron Fist of K'un Lun
And the final page shows some primitive art of all of them, even Viking Hulk, assembled together while the narrator talks about how stories are endlessly retold
VIKING AGE AVENGERS Y'ALL
Viking Hulk? is that who the dude who prayed to loki is or somebody else
Well in good Marvel news Jason Aaron is doing some RAD SHIT with his young Thor stuff in Mighty Thor
This two parter starred a Viking that got pissed Thor stole all of his glory and prayer to Loki to become mightier than even Thor
Well he and Thor brawl all across the Earth and run into or gather the attention of some interesting folks
The Ghost Rider of the Americas and his Spirit Bear
The Black Panther of Wakanda
The Princess of Atlantis
And the Iron Fist of K'un Lun
And the final page shows some primitive art of all of them, even Viking Hulk, assembled together while the narrator talks about how stories are endlessly retold
Well in good Marvel news Jason Aaron is doing some RAD SHIT with his young Thor stuff in Mighty Thor
This two parter starred a Viking that got pissed Thor stole all of his glory and prayer to Loki to become mightier than even Thor
Well he and Thor brawl all across the Earth and run into or gather the attention of some interesting folks
The Ghost Rider of the Americas and his Spirit Bear
The Black Panther of Wakanda
The Princess of Atlantis
And the Iron Fist of K'un Lun
And the final page shows some primitive art of all of them, even Viking Hulk, assembled together while the narrator talks about how stories are endlessly retold
VIKING AGE AVENGERS Y'ALL
Viking Hulk? is that who the dude who prayed to loki is or somebody else
See the biggest problem I have with the Cap stuff is
taking a character who has always, always stood for what is good and right in the world and saying he was evil all along. And I know they're saying Hydra isn't completely evil blah blah blah but no. Sorry. Hydra has always been evil. Not only does it destroy the character and everything he stands for, it doesn't make a lick of sense.
I mean come on. Cap as a character was created by two Jewish men. You're telling me he was secretly on the side of the Nazis the whole time?!
Yeah, this is gonna be the next Electric Superman. A few odd years from now it'll be swept under the rug, and we'll all pretend it never happened. Just like OMD! Color me neither impressed nor interested.
I'm telling you guys I'm totally right about how they're gonna make this work.
Preparing a post to make three years from where I'll be all smug and brag about how smart I am.
I don't think that makes it work though
Kobik changing his past means that it isn't really Steve Rogers so this is basically Evil Steve Rogers: Captain Hydra and there are no real stakes because it isn't really him.
Like, I fucking hate this story but they are telling it and have crossed the Rubicon so don't half-ass it now and go OH NO HAHA IT WAS AN ALTERNATE STEVE VIA COSMIC CUBE
If some future writer wants to do that then rock on but if this is the story they are set on telling, doing anything other than Steve being Hydra makes it toothless.
I disagree that it needs to be a real permanent change to "matter" or be a good story.
What will make the story "matter" will be the characters interacting and feeling things and doing things and resolving the problem.
It can just be a story that has an ending and still be interesting and develop characters.
Posts
Except
It's the only way I can see them doing this story without ruining continuity and the character. It uses things introduced earlier in ways that make sense, and give the story an eventual out/way to fix things.
I'm banking on it, now.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
And it fits well within the technically correct realm of being the "real Steve Rogers" but I personally wouldn't consider Steve being affected by being trigged from decades old mental tampering he had done as a much younger, and likely militant, man the real deal.
Fuck everything
Goodbye
I'm late to this, but if it's a fakeout, then it's not a shocking reveal
I know Blank has said he's still fine with Sam, but if this is the new status quo for Steve Rogers, it's going to be hard to completely avoid or ignore it. Every time Steve appears in anything, it's going to be couched in this stuff because this is who the character is now.
But
Peter Parker is totally dead and Doc Ock is in his body.
Still a shocking story that turned out really good even if it turned out Peter was still in there almost immediately.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
That isn't even remotely the same thing
Honestly, while it started kinda dumb, the whole story line was worth it for the Goblins expression when Peter got back and delivered the one liner.
If I can avoid spoilers though.
This is why I am cautiously optimistic. Still, just like the Superior Spider-Man, it's up to Marvel to sell this to me, and it's not an easy task.
Preparing a post to make three years from where I'll be all smug and brag about how smart I am.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
In this case either Steve is Hydra, Steve is pretending to be Hydra or Steve has been changed to be or believe he is Hydra. All of these are bad options because the first is, well, the first. The second is a super guessable, unexciting toothless fakeout and the last means it isn't really Steve so it isn't really shocking or Earth shattering at all.
I am struggling to think of any other ways they could handle this.
I'm... Yeah I'll just ignore it until it goes away. It didn't work with Brand New Day (yet) but I'm hopeful it'll work with this. Even if it doesn't, I have tonnes of back issues to cherish forever.
But at the same time, they've it sounds like they've poisoned the very well this character came from and diluted their entire history. Its very pyrrhic, conceptually.
Like, I fucking hate this story but they are telling it and have crossed the Rubicon so don't half-ass it now and go OH NO HAHA IT WAS AN ALTERNATE STEVE VIA COSMIC CUBE
If some future writer wants to do that then rock on but if this is the story they are set on telling, doing anything other than Steve being Hydra makes it toothless.
Press release is exactly what you would expect, lots of new series and creative teams spinning out of CW2
Looks like it will be revealed July 13th
I don't think this is possible, based on the epilogue of Remender's Captain America
Now, it's The Unknown Council for a reason, we can't be sure that it's Steve under the hood, but I think that's far more likely than there being 2 long-standing Avengers in Hydra who are longtime friends with Sam.
and this was a year and a half ago (October 2014), long before Kobik.
There we go. Coming soon in Marvel NOW! Teen Steve, the new Nomad.
There is no way in Hell.
ooh
A survey team studying the rate the polar icecaps are melting makes a startling discover - Captain Steve Rogers, hero of the second World War, looking uncannily like Chris Evans
The world is shocked, but all available tests confirm, this is the real Captain America, frozen since 1945... so who is this person that's been claiming to be him for decades? CAP VERSUS CAP
Well, to be fair, if they went "Don't worry, this will get explained as a retcon or a trick, and Cap will remain an unblemished flower" they'd basically be telling us the end of the story before the second issue is even published.
Well he and Thor brawl all across the Earth and run into or gather the attention of some interesting folks
The Ghost Rider of the Americas and his Spirit Bear
The Black Panther of Wakanda
The Princess of Atlantis
And the Iron Fist of K'un Lun
And the final page shows some primitive art of all of them, even Viking Hulk, assembled together while the narrator talks about how stories are endlessly retold
VIKING AGE AVENGERS Y'ALL
Oh my gosh this sounds amazing
I mean come on. Cap as a character was created by two Jewish men. You're telling me he was secretly on the side of the Nazis the whole time?!
I disagree that it needs to be a real permanent change to "matter" or be a good story.
What will make the story "matter" will be the characters interacting and feeling things and doing things and resolving the problem.
It can just be a story that has an ending and still be interesting and develop characters.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog