XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
You seem to not get this at all, so I'll spell it out.
ITS THE LYING PART.
I dont give a shit about their fucking equations.
But the only thing that was "lying," as far as I'm aware, was the XP numbers being displayed and that seems far more like a coding oversight. But maybe it was intentional!
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
This would be strictly worse in terms of XP per hour than the previous system, since under this one you don't gain more XP for trash mobs prior to completing a public event.
And yet I'm reasonably confident that most people (absent the higher "base" rate to compare it to) would consider it "better," because it would *feel* like you're only ever being given more XP, not having it taken away.
I think you are missing the point. The problem isn't the method of how the exp is being throttled or whatever. We already have a 3x exp buff for the first three bright engrams and then it goes back to the super grind. That is more similar to your suggested "better" method and not a single person has really thrown a fit about it. Why? Because its clear and open and communicated up front to the playerbase.
This throttling mechanice, however, was hidden from the playerbase. Not only hidden, but the UI was straight lying to the players. That the system is directly tied to their cash shop is what makes it feel even more scummy.
I mean, aside from the bit about it being lying, yes, that's what I said? If the numbers had been presented differently, nobody would have had an issue with the throttling, because it could just as easily have been presented as a buff while the "real" base XP was the fully throttled one.
This is all just further solidifying my belief that letting players see too much is a terrible idea.
Thats what you get from this? Really?
That Bungie should have hidden even more from the playerbase?
Yes.
If you never see the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then suddenly it's not throttling, it's an XP buff that decays as you grind Public Events or whatever and builds as you do PVP or raids.
But because you got to see some of how the system handled XP, it's definitely throttling and taking XP away from you.
If we never saw the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then people would still have done pixel analysis on the exp bar and we'd be right back to where we are. Unless you are saying that Bungie would have then be able to lie to us and state it was an XP buff*, despite it actually being throttling, which seems like a weird thing to be advocating for.
*Because it was not an XP buff. Not in any way shape or form. Since no matter how long you stayed in PvP and Raids, your XP would be throttled just as fast in PEs. They weren't correlated with each other.
So I guess they should take away the EXP bar, too, in order to prevent the players from understanding the system. You know, in case they figure out the psychological techniques being used on them to keep them playing the game. Less information about the reward systems in place is never good. Again, I point to the very clear 3x buff we have right now. Everyone is fine with that. We have all the information about how that works, people understand it and they are cool with it. And I think that's because we have all the correct information about it. Even if they changed it to, "After your first 3 bright engrams a week, you earn EXP 3x slower", I still think most people would be ok with it. This whole issue has barely anything to do with how its "packaged" and instead has everything to do with hiding information from the players and using the game to lie to them about their progress.
Again, absent the actual numbers, the previous system could be replicated by having a low base rate of XP gain with a buff that decays as you gain XP via Public Events or other large masses of XP. Analyzing the bar, or even the XP values in DIM, would not tell you the difference.
Would you have been okay with the existing system if the XP values being displayed were correctly adjusted? If not, then your issue isn't with information being hidden, it's with feeling like something is being taken from you.
Yes.
That's the whole point.
Oh! Well then, I guess I've been getting the wrong impression.
But surely now that this issue has been gotten rid of everything is fine.
Nope.
Because like @Erevar has said, once you catch a liar, and said liar only admits to lying because they were caught, it becomes impossible to not question most anything they tell you for a period of time.
Even worse, is that after catching Bungie hiding and lying to their players, they didn't change the system to favor the players even in the slightest as a way to gain some goodwill, they instead doubled down and changed the system to still be as punishing to the player. That doesn't sound like they feel even the slightest bit like they were in the wrong for lying to their players about this part of their progression/reward system that ties directly into their cash shop.
Well, actually what they did was then lie to the players again because they said nothing about doubling the time it takes to get a level.
So they lied to the players to try and squeeze from money out of them via microtransactions, then refused to do anything about it till they got caught by the gaming press, then said they stopped what they were doing but at the same time changed a different part of the system without telling anyone to try and continue to squeeze more microtransaction money out of the playerbase.
It's all making it fairly clear that they are really interested in fucking with the gameplay experience in secret to try and make us buy lootbox lottery tickets.
+5
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SurfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
but the time it took to reach 80k before and after the change are entirely likely to be different, so doubling the xp is completely meaningless except as not the most adroit PR presentation of the concept
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
Again, part of the "throttling system" could have been a base 2x modifier.
Throttling system:
XP gain = base XP * (complicated stuff) and XP per level = 80k
which is the same as:
XP gain = base XP [* (complicated stuff) * 2] and XP per level = 160k
New system:
XP gain = base XP and XP per level = 160k
which is the same as the second version above minus the "throttling system" (the part in brackets).
Just because you got to "see" the 80k number doesn't make it the "real" number.
Again, all this is beside the actual point of the matter. Which is that were intentionally obfuscating something to the players and violating their trust. The theory that it was a 'coding issue' doesn't really hold water for me, seeing as it was only addressed when it found out/became a thing.
Again, all this is beside the actual point of the matter. Which is that were intentionally obfuscating the XP gains. The theory that it was a 'coding issue' doesn't really hold water for me, seeing as it only addressed when it found out/became a thing.
Yes, things are usually only addressed when they are discovered, it's true.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
but the time it took to reach 80k before and after the change are entirely likely to be different, so doubling the xp is completely meaningless except as not the most adroit PR presentation of the concept
But they aren't. It's likely to be slightly different, but it's not going to be very far off double. Especially depending on what activities you did.
Shit, I can tell right now. Because the character I've mostly just been doing IB with this week has had their XP gain slow to a crawl. I've still got the well rested buff or whatever it's called.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i do think it is lame that they throttled xp but presented it as the same unless you paid enough attention to notice the bar not moving as far with the same result
not even for being devious, just for being poorly designed presentation of a pretty basic concept in gaming these days -- namely that of rest xp
it is frustrating to have the curtain pulled away, for sure
Again, all this is beside the actual point of the matter. Which is that were intentionally obfuscating the XP gains. The theory that it was a 'coding issue' doesn't really hold water for me, seeing as it only addressed when it found out/became a thing.
Yes, things are usually only addressed when they are discovered, it's true.
If you really believe that Bungie was oblivious to the fact that their gui was displaying inaccurate XP gains then I have some pop tart codes to sell you.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
but the time it took to reach 80k before and after the change are entirely likely to be different, so doubling the xp is completely meaningless except as not the most adroit PR presentation of the concept
But they aren't. It's likely to be slightly different, but it's not going to be very far off double. Especially depending on what activities you did.
Shit, I can tell right now. Because the character I've mostly just been doing IB with this week has had their XP gain slow to a crawl. I've still got the well rested buff or whatever it's called.
they aren't even done implementing the changed system though
What I find amusing is that if the numbers had simply been displayed differently, the lowest rate of XP gain could easily have been the "base" rate, with a boost for initial XP gain or longer activities. But instead, because of how the information was presented, the throttling was Bungie "taking away" XP.
It's a very fundamental psychological difference that Blizzard tested way back in the WoW beta. XP gains used to be diminished for players that played for long sessions and players complained. Blizzard changed the mechanic before release to give you bonus ("rested") XP for logging out at an inn that accrued over time (while also setting a limit to the amount of bonus XP that you could bank) and the complaints disappeared.
Same effect, different messaging. Bungie messaging has very rarely been anything but utter shit. Never mind the fact that all this information was initially hidden from players, and it always looks worse for things like this to be discovered instead of the developer being open an honest.
This is my biggest headscratcher with Bungie. It's like someone knew cutting edge stuff circa 2005, Rip Van Winkled it for 10 years, and woke up thinking there was nothing better in the world than when they went to sleep. I'd be more forgiving if these were attempts at new systems & mechanics but these are literally just old shitty systems hidden behind a deceptive --- no, DECEITFUL -- UI.
Yo surfpossum is your argument ‘what really is a number, man’
i mean, that's kind of the root of the issue here
80k was (is currently) the set amount of xp needed per level
but that number is meaningless as your ability to earn xp varies due to several factors
doubling the cap to 160k but removing the sliding scale of xp may in fact result in it take less time to earn a level
i suspect they have an idea of how much time it should take to earn a level and are basing things off of that
the number itself is literally meaningless
Chanus, explain how raiders and pvpers are going to feel that adjustment based on time to earn a level since they had little throttling going on and eat the full hit of this xp doubling.
Then consider how rewarding strikes are in D2.
Do you really think Bungie has a handle on their reward system?
You're also old, let the cynicism flow through you my friend.
Again, if they are going to have that kind of systems that's fine. But be straight with it. I mean cripes -- how many colors does the experience bar in Diablo 3 change depending on what amount of buffs or fountains you have going on?
Again, all this is beside the actual point of the matter. Which is that were intentionally obfuscating the XP gains. The theory that it was a 'coding issue' doesn't really hold water for me, seeing as it only addressed when it found out/became a thing.
Yes, things are usually only addressed when they are discovered, it's true.
Just like how treasure chests stop giving out loot if you open too many too quickly? On its own, you'd assume it was a quirky bug, but now it looks to be part of a broader design to slow the rate you get things if you play too much.
Should I begin to question the poor raid drop rates I've experienced due to fluke or because I played a lot earlier in the week, and so the system decided to slow things down for me?
PSN Fleety2009
+6
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Sirialisof the Halite Throne.Registered Userregular
edited November 2017
If Bungie found out that they had given too much Bright Engram XP to players (Unthinkable, companies triplecheck anything related to their cash shops economy otherwise their publisher destroys them)
What would Bungie have done then?
IMMEDIATE SERVER STOP UNTIL IT WAS FIXED.
They have done this in Destiny 1 already, back when there was a bug that gave strange coins, it took 10 minutes until all the servers were offline and only brought back up when the emergency fix was ready.
This inconveniences players, so its rated as "When we get around to it"
The XP garbage is exactly why I'm vociferously anti-lootbox (to the point that it definitely pisses off other folks on here). It is impossible to add microtransactions, especially loot boxes, to your game without it having a massive warping effect on the gameplay.
Honestly? D1 was fine with regard to the loot boxes and gameplay.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
but the time it took to reach 80k before and after the change are entirely likely to be different, so doubling the xp is completely meaningless except as not the most adroit PR presentation of the concept
But they aren't. It's likely to be slightly different, but it's not going to be very far off double. Especially depending on what activities you did.
Shit, I can tell right now. Because the character I've mostly just been doing IB with this week has had their XP gain slow to a crawl. I've still got the well rested buff or whatever it's called.
Yes, you've lost both the built in 2x modifier and the PVP buff that you had under the throttling system.
edit: to be clear, this is partially in jest; I don't even know if the changes are live.
Again, all this is beside the actual point of the matter. Which is that were intentionally obfuscating the XP gains. The theory that it was a 'coding issue' doesn't really hold water for me, seeing as it only addressed when it found out/became a thing.
Yes, things are usually only addressed when they are discovered, it's true.
If you really believe that Bungie was oblivious to the fact that their gui was displaying inaccurate XP gains then I have some pop tart codes to sell you.
I mean, it's possible that it was intentional. I don't see it as being obviously so.
If Bungie found out that they had given too much Bright Engram XP to players (Unthinkable, companies triplecheck anything related to their cash shops economy otherwise their publisher destroys them)
What would Bungie have done then?
IMMEDIATE SERVER STOP UNTIL IT WAS FIXED.
They have done this in Destiny 1 already, back when there was a bug that gave strange coins, it took 10 minutes until all the servers were offline and only brought back up when the emergency fix was ready.
This inconveniences players, so its rated as "When we get around to it"
I mean, the numbers being displayed incorrectly has literally no impact on gameplay or the rate at which you earn brights, so... no, it doesn't seem like it would warrant taking the servers down.
Yo surfpossum is your argument ‘what really is a number, man’
i mean, that's kind of the root of the issue here
80k was (is currently) the set amount of xp needed per level
but that number is meaningless as your ability to earn xp varies due to several factors
doubling the cap to 160k but removing the sliding scale of xp may in fact result in it take less time to earn a level
i suspect they have an idea of how much time it should take to earn a level and are basing things off of that
the number itself is literally meaningless
Chanus, explain how raiders and pvpers are going to feel that adjustment based on time to earn a level since they had little throttling going on and eat the full hit of this xp doubling.
Then consider how rewarding strikes are in D2.
Do you really think Bungie has a handle on their reward system?
You're also old, let the cynicism flow through you my friend.
i'm not saying they're right, i'm just saying i suspect they think they have an idea of what they're trying to do
Yo surfpossum is your argument ‘what really is a number, man’
i mean, that's kind of the root of the issue here
80k was (is currently) the set amount of xp needed per level
but that number is meaningless as your ability to earn xp varies due to several factors
doubling the cap to 160k but removing the sliding scale of xp may in fact result in it take less time to earn a level
i suspect they have an idea of how much time it should take to earn a level and are basing things off of that
the number itself is literally meaningless
Chanus, explain how raiders and pvpers are going to feel that adjustment based on time to earn a level since they had little throttling going on and eat the full hit of this xp doubling.
Then consider how rewarding strikes are in D2.
Do you really think Bungie has a handle on their reward system?
You're also old, let the cynicism flow through you my friend.
i'm not saying they're right, i'm just saying i suspect they think they have an idea of what they're trying to do
Yo surfpossum is your argument ‘what really is a number, man’
i mean, that's kind of the root of the issue here
80k was (is currently) the set amount of xp needed per level
but that number is meaningless as your ability to earn xp varies due to several factors
doubling the cap to 160k but removing the sliding scale of xp may in fact result in it take less time to earn a level
i suspect they have an idea of how much time it should take to earn a level and are basing things off of that
the number itself is literally meaningless
No, it's not. Because we have a good idea how the XP scaling worked from people's detective work and from what Bungie has said. We know roughly what the cap was and we know roughly how fast it triggered.
We know that XP gains across a lot of activities are not now going to be constantly doubled in value.
And because we know the amount needed has doubled in value, we know they are trying to slow us down still.
Given that they are most likely on crunch now for CoO I'm rather more prepared to attribute to a lack of resource what some are attributing to malice.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
we know 80k was the mark for an engram and we know you could earn between 4% and 100% of an expected xp rate at various times, depending on the activity you were doing and the time you spent doing it
the numbers are meaningless
the key will be to see how much time it takes to earn a bright engram after the change is completed
Again, if they are going to have that kind of systems that's fine. But be straight with it. I mean cripes -- how many colors does the experience bar in Diablo 3 change depending on what amount of buffs or fountains you have going on?
Also Paragon leveling has a known exponential curve. End-game XP has minor/incremental rewards that directly relate to player power, also.
Basically I've been playing Diablo 3, Season 12 instead of Destiny 2. =P
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
I don’t care one iota about bright engrams but it’s pretty obvious that bingos fucked up.
1. Players discover experience throttling that is not communicated through the UI.
2. Bingo announces that they are disabling throttling. Naturally players assume that this means that grinding public events will now let them level up faster. Bungie also announces that they are disabling the throttling behaviors that are player beneficial because lol idk.
3. Players discover that the cap has been raised so disabling throttling has actually been a net negative for them. cue the posts on DTG comparing destiny to an abusive spouse.
So yeah, breaking down the numbers is meaningless. What is meaningful is that people thought bungie was making their grind easier only to discover they were making it worse.
we know 80k was the mark for an engram and we know you could earn between 4% and 100% of an expected xp rate at various times, depending on the activity you were doing and the time you spent doing it
the numbers are meaningless
the key will be to see how much time it takes to earn a bright engram after the change is completed
But they aren't because we know a bunch of the numbers, not just the total amount of XP. Those other numbers provide context. And that context is "It's now slower to get Bright Engrams, especially in certain activities".
Games lie and hide information all the fucking time and no one gives near as big a shit. The only reason why this is a "big deal" and people are crying about being "lied to" is that it's loot box adjacent. Even though it's consistent with them being anti-farming for things that aren't attached to loot boxes, like chests and whatnot, since this time it is affecting loot boxes its suddenly not only considered way more scummy than the exact system functioning elsewhere, but is also determined to be a malicious targeted fleecing of the players instead of an intentional design decision that applies to all of their systems.
If you want Bungie to communicate more, blowing up bullshit like this way out of proportion surely isn't going to entice them to engage the players as rational actors.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
If Bungie found out that they had given too much Bright Engram XP to players (Unthinkable, companies triplecheck anything related to their cash shops economy otherwise their publisher destroys them)
What would Bungie have done then?
IMMEDIATE SERVER STOP UNTIL IT WAS FIXED.
They have done this in Destiny 1 already, back when there was a bug that gave strange coins, it took 10 minutes until all the servers were offline and only brought back up when the emergency fix was ready.
This inconveniences players, so its rated as "When we get around to it"
I mean, the numbers being displayed incorrectly has literally no impact on gameplay or the rate at which you earn brights, so... no, it doesn't seem like it would warrant taking the servers down.
Point at anywhere in my post that mentions anything about numbers being displayed incorrectly.
My example specifically stated that it was about what would likely have happened if Bungie had accidentally given players more XP than they intended.
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We're going by game/hollywood standards. :P
hollywood is just as real as the thought of me exercising
Well, actually what they did was then lie to the players again because they said nothing about doubling the time it takes to get a level.
So they lied to the players to try and squeeze from money out of them via microtransactions, then refused to do anything about it till they got caught by the gaming press, then said they stopped what they were doing but at the same time changed a different part of the system without telling anyone to try and continue to squeeze more microtransaction money out of the playerbase.
It's all making it fairly clear that they are really interested in fucking with the gameplay experience in secret to try and make us buy lootbox lottery tickets.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
That awkward moment... when Apothe0sis betrays you so people will like him/her again. :pop:
but the time it took to reach 80k before and after the change are entirely likely to be different, so doubling the xp is completely meaningless except as not the most adroit PR presentation of the concept
https://medium.com/@alascii
Confirmed: Surfpossum is Jaden Smith
Throttling system:
XP gain = base XP * (complicated stuff) and XP per level = 80k
which is the same as:
XP gain = base XP [* (complicated stuff) * 2] and XP per level = 160k
New system:
XP gain = base XP and XP per level = 160k
which is the same as the second version above minus the "throttling system" (the part in brackets).
Just because you got to "see" the 80k number doesn't make it the "real" number.
i mean, that's kind of the root of the issue here
80k was (is currently) the set amount of xp needed per level
but that number is meaningless as your ability to earn xp varies due to several factors
doubling the cap to 160k but removing the sliding scale of xp may in fact result in it take less time to earn a level
i suspect they have an idea of how much time it should take to earn a level and are basing things off of that
the number itself is literally meaningless
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
But they aren't. It's likely to be slightly different, but it's not going to be very far off double. Especially depending on what activities you did.
Shit, I can tell right now. Because the character I've mostly just been doing IB with this week has had their XP gain slow to a crawl. I've still got the well rested buff or whatever it's called.
not even for being devious, just for being poorly designed presentation of a pretty basic concept in gaming these days -- namely that of rest xp
it is frustrating to have the curtain pulled away, for sure
If you really believe that Bungie was oblivious to the fact that their gui was displaying inaccurate XP gains then I have some pop tart codes to sell you.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
they aren't even done implementing the changed system though
This is my biggest headscratcher with Bungie. It's like someone knew cutting edge stuff circa 2005, Rip Van Winkled it for 10 years, and woke up thinking there was nothing better in the world than when they went to sleep. I'd be more forgiving if these were attempts at new systems & mechanics but these are literally just old shitty systems hidden behind a deceptive --- no, DECEITFUL -- UI.
Chanus, explain how raiders and pvpers are going to feel that adjustment based on time to earn a level since they had little throttling going on and eat the full hit of this xp doubling.
Then consider how rewarding strikes are in D2.
Do you really think Bungie has a handle on their reward system?
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Just like how treasure chests stop giving out loot if you open too many too quickly? On its own, you'd assume it was a quirky bug, but now it looks to be part of a broader design to slow the rate you get things if you play too much.
Should I begin to question the poor raid drop rates I've experienced due to fluke or because I played a lot earlier in the week, and so the system decided to slow things down for me?
What would Bungie have done then?
IMMEDIATE SERVER STOP UNTIL IT WAS FIXED.
They have done this in Destiny 1 already, back when there was a bug that gave strange coins, it took 10 minutes until all the servers were offline and only brought back up when the emergency fix was ready.
This inconveniences players, so its rated as "When we get around to it"
Honestly? D1 was fine with regard to the loot boxes and gameplay.
edit: to be clear, this is partially in jest; I don't even know if the changes are live.
I mean, it's possible that it was intentional. I don't see it as being obviously so.
I mean, the numbers being displayed incorrectly has literally no impact on gameplay or the rate at which you earn brights, so... no, it doesn't seem like it would warrant taking the servers down.
i'm not saying they're right, i'm just saying i suspect they think they have an idea of what they're trying to do
Sell more silver?
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
No, it's not. Because we have a good idea how the XP scaling worked from people's detective work and from what Bungie has said. We know roughly what the cap was and we know roughly how fast it triggered.
We know that XP gains across a lot of activities are not now going to be constantly doubled in value.
And because we know the amount needed has doubled in value, we know they are trying to slow us down still.
Because these numbers are not meaningful.
the numbers are meaningless
the key will be to see how much time it takes to earn a bright engram after the change is completed
Also Paragon leveling has a known exponential curve. End-game XP has minor/incremental rewards that directly relate to player power, also.
Basically I've been playing Diablo 3, Season 12 instead of Destiny 2. =P
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
1. Players discover experience throttling that is not communicated through the UI.
2. Bingo announces that they are disabling throttling. Naturally players assume that this means that grinding public events will now let them level up faster. Bungie also announces that they are disabling the throttling behaviors that are player beneficial because lol idk.
3. Players discover that the cap has been raised so disabling throttling has actually been a net negative for them. cue the posts on DTG comparing destiny to an abusive spouse.
So yeah, breaking down the numbers is meaningless. What is meaningful is that people thought bungie was making their grind easier only to discover they were making it worse.
https://medium.com/@alascii
But they aren't because we know a bunch of the numbers, not just the total amount of XP. Those other numbers provide context. And that context is "It's now slower to get Bright Engrams, especially in certain activities".
If you want Bungie to communicate more, blowing up bullshit like this way out of proportion surely isn't going to entice them to engage the players as rational actors.
Point at anywhere in my post that mentions anything about numbers being displayed incorrectly.
My example specifically stated that it was about what would likely have happened if Bungie had accidentally given players more XP than they intended.
I did too - but it's just DodgeBlan referencing the DTG subreddit (which has become Hell on Earth)