Seems like her dmg can quickly outdps yrel healing.
I haven't tried the matchup yet. I'm skeptical, though, only just because Lunara doesn't have self-sustain of her own, so if Yrel get's a charged jump or hammer into Lunara, that could be bad news. Depends on how quickly you can burn Yrel down, but I'm skeptical of Lun being able to do it fast enough. Maybe, though, you should try it and get back to me!
She can do ok vs yrel but if you ever take one step too far forward and let her land on you with E you're probably going to have to hearth.
But like most yrel lanes and the reason why her solo lane isn't actually overpowered, she won't ever win the lane unless you let her, so just let her push up and kill the minions against your wall and she can't convert it into any value outside of Braxis or Dragon Shire.
To add my 2 cents while keeping things calm, when someone says:
And nobody said anything about "throwing a hissy fit" or whatever you are saying. But it does create a shitty play experience to literally have people never get to play their favourite characters at a certain point. And some people wanna try and climb the ladder or have real teams every game and so QM is not gonna provide that right now.
I read that as "I want to play my favorite hero, and have my hero be competitive, and have 4 other people draft around my favorite hero, so that our comp is competitive"
That's a big ask of everyone, and it still happens all the time in high level streams where you get 2 one tricks on the same team and neither of them budge so they end up with a weird ass comp.
One tricks should be punished because they have inflated their mmr with that one hero. If they don't get it, they are now playing well below their mmr and make a worse experience for 9 people
I'll be pretty blunt in that if someone's favorite hero is KTZ, Tracer, Mediev, Hanzo, or Genji, I don't care in the least that they don't get to play their favorite hero. I'd 100% ban them all every game if I could and they can go learn a new hero that doesn't cause me to go bald (again, I guess? Can you go bald twice? Bald squared?).
I think it needs to be mentioned that some of us are in extremely small MMR bands, and we play against the exact same players every night. I feel like I recognize members of both teams on a pretty regular basis, like probably 50% of the time. And I remember what they play, and especially what they play well. There's a master's level Hammer main that I play against a bunch, for example. He has close to six - thousand games played on her and it's tough to deal with if you aren't prepared. Before, I could see him in Draft and either draft counters or ban the Hammer outright. Now I have to go into every game completely blind.
This only affects targeted meta bans right? How does this stop you from picking counters?
If someone is last pick and is going to auto-grab Hammer regardless of what the other 4 do, how do you plan to counter that? You have no idea that's going to happen unless you can see who the player is and realize there's basically a 99.99% chance he's going Hammer.
If instead you can see ahead of time you have options. you could do the outright ban, or actually draft around it. It's really no different than how most any competitive things work. From our little PA tournaments to higher level matches. You know certain players play certain characters well, so you either target ban it, pick it before them, or try to draft around it. But without that knowledge of who's on the other team, that whole aspect is just lost.
Sad cloud is excellent skinergy when playing Ana with the twilight skin because it matches the color and matches my mood when people dodge my heals for no reason.
So I'm watching this team called IQ129 in EU Open HGC.
I hope they go so far.
Today, they've drafted: Abathur+Murky, Murky (w/o Abathur), Tass+Tracer, and Cho'Gall.
They are 3-0 so far from what I've watched, and game 4 is ongoing. It's like their goal is to go through every meme composition and win with it. I them so much.
I dunno that tass tracer or chogall is super memey, the first is extremely effective in hgc and chogall has ripped a hole through the open division more than once.
murky comps are always good though. i played with a murky last night on ana and i just wanted to nano him so bad but he was always split and didn't go for anything vaugely nanoable. i was very sadcloud.
I dunno that tass tracer or chogall is super memey, the first is extremely effective in hgc and chogall has ripped a hole through the open division more than once.
murky comps are always good though. i played with a murky last night on ana and i just wanted to nano him so bad but he was always split and didn't go for anything vaugely nanoable. i was very sadcloud.
I guess not necessarily "meme" comps, but comps that are very... Ugh, I dunno what word I'm looking for here. "Comps that have specific names"?
I dunno that tass tracer or chogall is super memey, the first is extremely effective in hgc and chogall has ripped a hole through the open division more than once.
murky comps are always good though. i played with a murky last night on ana and i just wanted to nano him so bad but he was always split and didn't go for anything vaugely nanoable. i was very sadcloud.
I guess not necessarily "meme" comps, but comps that are very... Ugh, I dunno what word I'm looking for here. "Comps that have specific names"?
This only affects targeted meta bans right? How does this stop you from picking counters?
I mean, sometimes; sure. It depends. I play mostly Unranked Draft; I probably spend 99% of my time in that mode now, honestly. And it can be wonky. Like, maybe you still have room in the draft to counter a particular hero when it pops up, but you have to hope that your teammates who've yet to draft can actually play those counters. And sometimes, pick order fucks you completely. Again, at least before, when I ran up against certain players, I'd know ahead of time like, "Okay, I can't let this dude get Zeratul or we're completely fucked." And now, there's just nothing you can do about it. Like, you aren't going to find yourself in a position often where you're like, "Man, I need to ban Zeratul." But when certain players come up in the rotation, they're just fucking Zera gods, and they get away with just styling over people constantly because you can't see it coming anymore. Being able to see who you were up against was part of the draft experience, as far as I'm concerned. Half the time, now, I find my team just gets torn apart by niche picks and one-trick players who couldn't get appropriately countered at the draft screen. It's frustrating.
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Thinking about it some more, I can see how not having something like swapping (or TL's first-come first-served pick) in drafts can cause issues if you're able to see the players on the other team. Given you are forced to pick in order, it can be particularly useful to know that the other team can't pick a hero like Garrosh right off the bat, which gives you a ton of drafting room in the early stages.
So I'm watching this team called IQ129 in EU Open HGC.
I hope they go so far.
Today, they've drafted: Abathur+Murky, Murky (w/o Abathur), Tass+Tracer, and Cho'Gall.
They are 3-0 so far from what I've watched, and game 4 is ongoing. It's like their goal is to go through every meme composition and win with it. I them so much.
IQ129 lost as ChoGall (right at the end it was even, but their Alex got caught on rotation and they imploded), but then drafted another Murky comp and won. Great team . They made it to the semis or something tomorrow.
Yea, if a player who only plays a certain hero is constantly destroying games, he should be gaining MMR and be placed at a point where he's playing against equally skilled players. The only way that you can keep running into the same "1-trick" player is if they are winning and losing at roughly the same rate you are.
Maybe forcing only 1 hero regardless of situation loses you as many games as it wins.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
The entire point of a draftmode is having the minigame of bans and picks. Hiding who you are playing against just makes it worse in every way. You lose the ability to targetban certain players when needed, and gain nothing of value.
Yes, and when there's a particularly good player we might want to knock them off their best hero to improve our chances of winning.
I would like it if when there is a particularly good player I can instead leave the draft with no penalty and find a new one.
In fact, don't even match me with players better than me. Only make matches where I am the best.
I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not, but leaving the draft with no penalty sounds like it's a good way to make the game worse for more people.
Yes, and when there's a particularly good player we might want to knock them off their best hero to improve our chances of winning.
I would like it if when there is a particularly good player I can instead leave the draft with no penalty and find a new one.
In fact, don't even match me with players better than me. Only make matches where I am the best.
I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not, but leaving the draft with no penalty sounds like it's a good way to make the game worse for more people.
Yes, I realize that, which is why I amended it to simply "I want to always be the best player in the game."
I suppose I can accept simply being better than the entire enemy team.
I don't want it in any of my games. I'm not minimizing it. Just like I don't want toxicity in any of my games even though it is very rare.
You are the one attempting to recontextualize the issue as being "shitty for the person who doesn't get to play their favorite hero ever", which I pointed out was untrue. I wasn't minimizing the problem so much as I was refuting your assertion. The only time a player gets banned out in this way is if they have a particularly strong hero or if the hero is particularly game-warping. You can one-trick Muradin and most people won't care until you get to higher tiers of play. And there will still be games where the other team won't care or will weigh the costs and decide against banning you, which means you will get to play your favorite hero.
But I, as a player, don't want to run into that Nova one-trick and not have the tools to ban them out. More importantly, that player should know that there is a cost to one-tricking, and that it is directly punishable by the other team in the draft. Your own team actually has a conflict of interest because they can only choose between two poor options - let you play your one-trick and adjust their own picks accordingly (making their own experience shittier) or potentially causing friction and lowering their own chances of winning and lessening their gameplay experience by asking you not to do so or banning it themselves.
The idea that you can just pick whatever the fuck you want in a game like this is inherently selfish and ignores the fact that there are 9 other people impacted by your decisions and behavior. I have absolutely no sympathy for the argument that someone might not get to play their favorite hero every single game when a game mode exists that allows them to do exactly that.
But, you haven't. You have just said it's not a big deal or you don't care about that. Nothing about what I said is untrue. If you were reading shit around the time it happened plenty of people were talking about people getting shut out of their favourite picks in basically every game. (The other major thing you saw was people stream sniping.) Blizzard has, afaik, said nothing on the issue so we don't know their exact reasoning for it.
But it remains true that if blind drafting makes any sort of difference at all, then the only difference it makes is in locking certain people out of the hero(es) they want to pick all the time. That is the only purpose of knowing someone on the enemy team's account name during draft. That's what it does. Now maybe you don't give a shit about that result and, sure, whatever. But that doesn't make it not what is actually happening.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Yes, and when there's a particularly good player we might want to knock them off their best hero to improve our chances of winning.
I would like it if when there is a particularly good player I can instead leave the draft with no penalty and find a new one.
In fact, don't even match me with players better than me. Only make matches where I am the best.
I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not, but leaving the draft with no penalty sounds like it's a good way to make the game worse for more people.
Yes, I realize that, which is why I amended it to simply "I want to always be the best player in the game."
I suppose I can accept simply being better than the entire enemy team.
I think this would improve the game.
If only the other team could target ban me back in this hypothetical scenario, then it'd be fair...
Yea, if a player who only plays a certain hero is constantly destroying games, he should be gaining MMR and be placed at a point where he's playing against equally skilled players. The only way that you can keep running into the same "1-trick" player is if they are winning and losing at roughly the same rate you are.
Maybe forcing only 1 hero regardless of situation loses you as many games as it wins.
i've seen plenty of players who are 65%+ on certain heroes but don't play them every time, but i sure as shit would have banned it if i knew the other team had a player with like 110 games on ktz with 65% winrate when i was trying to lock out a mage.
draft modes also need to implement trading positions. if i'm playing tank and i want to keep my options open but i'm first, i'm suddenly stuck trying to predict the kind of comp i need to tank against without seeing any information. that's hard. i'd like to be able to trade back and decide if i want anub or muradin or johanna or whatever. personally, outside of garrosh who we will never see again in a draft mode after tuesday, i don't really play any of the big snap first pick high mechanical complexity heroes because i don't have the skill for it. it's a detriment to my team for me to be drafting early.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Yea, if a player who only plays a certain hero is constantly destroying games, he should be gaining MMR and be placed at a point where he's playing against equally skilled players. The only way that you can keep running into the same "1-trick" player is if they are winning and losing at roughly the same rate you are.
Maybe forcing only 1 hero regardless of situation loses you as many games as it wins.
This is where having a single value like MMR to encompass everything from your hero pool to your strategic decision-making to your map awareness becomes an issue.
Because the one-trick's MMR is largely coming from a single hero, rather than leveraging another skill like drafting or map awareness (e.g., oh they picked a lot of AA so I will draft Johanna/LiLi). So what will end up happening is that the player will either get their hero and have a high chance of winning that game, or they will not get their hero and have a significantly lower chance of winning the game. Their MMR will reflect that value accordingly, hovering at some midpoint between those two extremes, but will not capture the significantly more skewed nature of their games.
But the quality of the games they participate in go down overall because it is either stomp-or-be-stomped.
Yrel wins vs Malth until 4, but even then it's a rough trade for Malth. Yrel's probably the stronger pick overall since both teams should ideally be rotating in a ganker like Genji occasionally, and while Yrel's tanky and mobile enough to escape, Malthael really isn't. The trade-off might be that Malth can drop out and take his top camp a lot more efficiently than Yrel, though.
aside from the whole solo-lane bully thing, she's extremely good at holding points and bullying people out. and that's what wins you the objective, is pushing your way into the enemy's obj and holding it better than they can
honestly at this point i think yrel is just good no matter what, she basically fits into any comp.
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Seems like her dmg can quickly outdps yrel healing.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I haven't tried the matchup yet. I'm skeptical, though, only just because Lunara doesn't have self-sustain of her own, so if Yrel get's a charged jump or hammer into Lunara, that could be bad news. Depends on how quickly you can burn Yrel down, but I'm skeptical of Lun being able to do it fast enough. Maybe, though, you should try it and get back to me!
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But like most yrel lanes and the reason why her solo lane isn't actually overpowered, she won't ever win the lane unless you let her, so just let her push up and kill the minions against your wall and she can't convert it into any value outside of Braxis or Dragon Shire.
I read that as "I want to play my favorite hero, and have my hero be competitive, and have 4 other people draft around my favorite hero, so that our comp is competitive"
That's a big ask of everyone, and it still happens all the time in high level streams where you get 2 one tricks on the same team and neither of them budge so they end up with a weird ass comp.
One tricks should be punished because they have inflated their mmr with that one hero. If they don't get it, they are now playing well below their mmr and make a worse experience for 9 people
This only affects targeted meta bans right? How does this stop you from picking counters?
hell friggin' yes
that makes two now (other being angry cloud)
both got from loot boxers
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It looks so sad
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If someone is last pick and is going to auto-grab Hammer regardless of what the other 4 do, how do you plan to counter that? You have no idea that's going to happen unless you can see who the player is and realize there's basically a 99.99% chance he's going Hammer.
If instead you can see ahead of time you have options. you could do the outright ban, or actually draft around it. It's really no different than how most any competitive things work. From our little PA tournaments to higher level matches. You know certain players play certain characters well, so you either target ban it, pick it before them, or try to draft around it. But without that knowledge of who's on the other team, that whole aspect is just lost.
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I hope they go so far.
Today, they've drafted: Abathur+Murky, Murky (w/o Abathur), Tass+Tracer, and Cho'Gall.
They are 3-0 so far from what I've watched, and game 4 is ongoing. It's like their goal is to go through every meme composition and win with it. I
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Any thoughts on lvl 10 pick?
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
I don't play her, but almost everyone picks Warden's Cage.
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murky comps are always good though. i played with a murky last night on ana and i just wanted to nano him so bad but he was always split and didn't go for anything vaugely nanoable. i was very sadcloud.
I guess not necessarily "meme" comps, but comps that are very... Ugh, I dunno what word I'm looking for here. "Comps that have specific names"?
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"oh, those guys"
I mean, sometimes; sure. It depends. I play mostly Unranked Draft; I probably spend 99% of my time in that mode now, honestly. And it can be wonky. Like, maybe you still have room in the draft to counter a particular hero when it pops up, but you have to hope that your teammates who've yet to draft can actually play those counters. And sometimes, pick order fucks you completely. Again, at least before, when I ran up against certain players, I'd know ahead of time like, "Okay, I can't let this dude get Zeratul or we're completely fucked." And now, there's just nothing you can do about it. Like, you aren't going to find yourself in a position often where you're like, "Man, I need to ban Zeratul." But when certain players come up in the rotation, they're just fucking Zera gods, and they get away with just styling over people constantly because you can't see it coming anymore. Being able to see who you were up against was part of the draft experience, as far as I'm concerned. Half the time, now, I find my team just gets torn apart by niche picks and one-trick players who couldn't get appropriately countered at the draft screen. It's frustrating.
This is both a true statement and also completely useless to any conversation :P
IQ129 lost as ChoGall (right at the end it was even, but their Alex got caught on rotation and they imploded), but then drafted another Murky comp and won. Great team
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Yea, if a player who only plays a certain hero is constantly destroying games, he should be gaining MMR and be placed at a point where he's playing against equally skilled players. The only way that you can keep running into the same "1-trick" player is if they are winning and losing at roughly the same rate you are.
Maybe forcing only 1 hero regardless of situation loses you as many games as it wins.
Yes, and when there's a particularly good player we might want to knock them off their best hero to improve our chances of winning.
I would like it if when there is a particularly good player I can instead leave the draft with no penalty and find a new one.
In fact, don't even match me with players better than me. Only make matches where I am the best.
HAWKRAY DOES IT AGAIN
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not, but leaving the draft with no penalty sounds like it's a good way to make the game worse for more people.
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Yes, I realize that, which is why I amended it to simply "I want to always be the best player in the game."
I suppose I can accept simply being better than the entire enemy team.
I think this would improve the game.
But, you haven't. You have just said it's not a big deal or you don't care about that. Nothing about what I said is untrue. If you were reading shit around the time it happened plenty of people were talking about people getting shut out of their favourite picks in basically every game. (The other major thing you saw was people stream sniping.) Blizzard has, afaik, said nothing on the issue so we don't know their exact reasoning for it.
But it remains true that if blind drafting makes any sort of difference at all, then the only difference it makes is in locking certain people out of the hero(es) they want to pick all the time. That is the only purpose of knowing someone on the enemy team's account name during draft. That's what it does. Now maybe you don't give a shit about that result and, sure, whatever. But that doesn't make it not what is actually happening.
If only the other team could target ban me back in this hypothetical scenario, then it'd be fair...
i've seen plenty of players who are 65%+ on certain heroes but don't play them every time, but i sure as shit would have banned it if i knew the other team had a player with like 110 games on ktz with 65% winrate when i was trying to lock out a mage.
draft modes also need to implement trading positions. if i'm playing tank and i want to keep my options open but i'm first, i'm suddenly stuck trying to predict the kind of comp i need to tank against without seeing any information. that's hard. i'd like to be able to trade back and decide if i want anub or muradin or johanna or whatever. personally, outside of garrosh who we will never see again in a draft mode after tuesday, i don't really play any of the big snap first pick high mechanical complexity heroes because i don't have the skill for it. it's a detriment to my team for me to be drafting early.
This is where having a single value like MMR to encompass everything from your hero pool to your strategic decision-making to your map awareness becomes an issue.
Because the one-trick's MMR is largely coming from a single hero, rather than leveraging another skill like drafting or map awareness (e.g., oh they picked a lot of AA so I will draft Johanna/LiLi). So what will end up happening is that the player will either get their hero and have a high chance of winning that game, or they will not get their hero and have a significantly lower chance of winning the game. Their MMR will reflect that value accordingly, hovering at some midpoint between those two extremes, but will not capture the significantly more skewed nature of their games.
But the quality of the games they participate in go down overall because it is either stomp-or-be-stomped.
We didn't win!
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
Garrosh? Cho'gall? Medivh? Kel'thuzad?
Those guys don't exist anymore.
Generally. If you let them grab Malthael, though, that's a pretty good counter on that map. And in general.
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tbh i think Alterac as well
aside from the whole solo-lane bully thing, she's extremely good at holding points and bullying people out. and that's what wins you the objective, is pushing your way into the enemy's obj and holding it better than they can
honestly at this point i think yrel is just good no matter what, she basically fits into any comp.
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