I really want a post-Hobus series. The destruction of Romulus, the Federation's recovery after the Dominion War, and the imminent Klingon collapse would make for some damn good political drama.
Dax is the kind of character they could easily bring back if they ever get back to the future. Even on Discovery, bring on whoever was Dax in that era.
+6
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I wouldn't. The Klingons already moan and groan about how the Empire has fallen from glory given any opportunity, I don't think I could take the epic level of whinging about former glory from a bunch of Klingons whose whole government has fallen apart.
There's too much morose Klingon opera, and then there's way too much morose Klingon opera.
I'd like to see some Klingons that weren't just two dimensional
Space death cultists
Space Russians
Space Vikings
Discovery had an interesting take on them at the start, especially how they viewed the Federation's expansion via soft power, but it quickly devolved into Klingons just naturally being violent conquerors.
It's just hard to take Klingons seriously since 99% of their portrayals have been of warriors of one stripe or another, which automatically turns everything towards honor and glory. How do Klingon chefs view the world? Or doctors? Is all of their art about their mythology and whatnot? Is there a Klingon counterculture?
I think the Klingons could be very interesting if someone took the time to actually think about them as an actual culture. It can't be all Kahless all the time for every Klingon.
There is a pretty big difference between how characters view the Klingons and how they're actually portrayed.
Because in every Trek show, it's not the honorable warrior Klingons who actually rise to power, it's the cunning Machievellian ones. In TOS, the Klingons had no problem playing dirty against the Federation, fighting proxy wars, sabotaging colonization efforts, spreading anti-Federation propaganda. In TNG, Duras was the most powerful house and they were very duplicitous. They tried to bribe K'Ehleyr, Picard and Worf to get them on their side. When bribery failed, they tried assassination. And Gowron wasn't very honorable either. But he was very good at using Klingon culture to manipulate people to get what he wanted.
Worf, as an outsider, bought the propaganda and modeled himself after how Klingons are supposed to be, what they say they are, in the stories they tell and songs they sing about themselves. Which is why he's so different from most "real" Klingons. He's a true believer, a paragon. (I often compare him to Steve "Captain America" Rogers.)
I remember seeing a video essay that talked about how Klingon society is based on 'external' honor (all about image and how others see you, and doing what you're expected to do based on some honor code), while Worf, being an outsider and having to figure it out for himself based on what he's seen and heard (like Commander Zoom mentioned), interprets it as 'internal' honor (about his own sense of right and wrong). It was certainly an interesting take.
+5
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
edited September 2018
Klingon society is based on how rad your crazy eyes are. That's why Gowron was emperor for so long.
Edit: Also, my husband is Lakota and watching Voyager with him is... Woof. I had no idea they did so much stuff with Chakotay and his heritage and stuff and... It isn't great!
I liked some of the ideas behind Discovery's Klingons more than I liked how they executed them.
For example, I liked the idea that the Klingons hated the Federation not for their military power but their 'soft' power. But I think this is something that should've been shown rather than just talked about. Show me, say, Klingon parents furious with their kids for drinking Earl Grey (hot) and doing the Vulcan salute.
Also, the idea that the Klingons were a bunch of warring factions who decided to unite to fight the Federation is interesting, but I thought it was weird that the factions were able to come to peace terms in the course of like, one single 5 minute meeting.
"So, hey guys, I know we're all mortal enemies here, and we've been fighting for decades upon decades, but what if we put aside our differences and teamed up?"
"Yeah sure."
"Sounds cool."
There's a reason no newspaper has ever printed the phrase "peace talk", singular! I know with Star Trek you gotta suspend your disbelief a lot but somehow that was a (starship) bridge too far for me. I think it would've been better if the Klingons teaming up happened off screen. Show us Klingons from different factions attacking the Federation in unison, then show the Federation saying "Oh shit, the factions have teamed up!" No need to show us the interfactional diplomatic talk(s).
I liked some of the ideas behind Discovery's Klingons more than I liked how they executed them.
For example, I liked the idea that the Klingons hated the Federation not for their military power but their 'soft' power. But I think this is something that should've been shown rather than just talked about. Show me, say, Klingon parents furious with their kids for drinking Earl Grey (hot) and doing the Vulcan salute.
Also, the idea that the Klingons were a bunch of warring factions who decided to unite to fight the Federation is interesting, but I thought it was weird that the factions were able to come to peace terms in the course of like, one single 5 minute meeting.
"So, hey guys, I know we're all mortal enemies here, and we've been fighting for decades upon decades, but what if we put aside our differences and teamed up?"
"Yeah sure."
"Sounds cool."
There's a reason no newspaper has ever printed the phrase "peace talk", singular! I know with Star Trek you gotta suspend your disbelief a lot but somehow that was a (starship) bridge too far for me. I think it would've been better if the Klingons teaming up happened off screen. Show us Klingons from different factions attacking the Federation in unison, then show the Federation saying "Oh shit, the factions have teamed up!" No need to show us the interfactional diplomatic talk(s).
I liked some of the ideas behind Discovery's Klingons more than I liked how they executed them.
For example, I liked the idea that the Klingons hated the Federation not for their military power but their 'soft' power. But I think this is something that should've been shown rather than just talked about. Show me, say, Klingon parents furious with their kids for drinking Earl Grey (hot) and doing the Vulcan salute.
Also, the idea that the Klingons were a bunch of warring factions who decided to unite to fight the Federation is interesting, but I thought it was weird that the factions were able to come to peace terms in the course of like, one single 5 minute meeting.
"So, hey guys, I know we're all mortal enemies here, and we've been fighting for decades upon decades, but what if we put aside our differences and teamed up?"
"Yeah sure."
"Sounds cool."
There's a reason no newspaper has ever printed the phrase "peace talk", singular! I know with Star Trek you gotta suspend your disbelief a lot but somehow that was a (starship) bridge too far for me. I think it would've been better if the Klingons teaming up happened off screen. Show us Klingons from different factions attacking the Federation in unison, then show the Federation saying "Oh shit, the factions have teamed up!" No need to show us the interfactional diplomatic talk(s).
I definitely think pretty much everything related to the Klingons was the weakest part of the show.
There is a pretty big difference between how characters view the Klingons and how they're actually portrayed.
Because in every Trek show, it's not the honorable warrior Klingons who actually rise to power, it's the cunning Machievellian ones. In TOS, the Klingons had no problem playing dirty against the Federation, fighting proxy wars, sabotaging colonization efforts, spreading anti-Federation propaganda. In TNG, Duras was the most powerful house and they were very duplicitous. They tried to bribe K'Ehleyr, Picard and Worf to get them on their side. When bribery failed, they tried assassination. And Gowron wasn't very honorable either. But he was very good at using Klingon culture to manipulate people to get what he wanted.
Worf, as an outsider, bought the propaganda and modeled himself after how Klingons are supposed to be, what they say they are, in the stories they tell and songs they sing about themselves. Which is why he's so different from most "real" Klingons. He's a true believer, a paragon. (I often compare him to Steve "Captain America" Rogers.)
I don't disagree. It's just that it's really boring at this point. And, like I said, it doesn't make them feel like a real culture. Nothing is done with the idea except to make most Klingons look like hypocrites. There has to be more to these people than honor, glory, and fighting amongst themselves (honorably or not) over chunks of their own empire. And, really, how could that even work from a practical standpoint over the course of centuries? If the great houses are always at odds and fighting for supremacy (even if it's just through alliances, some blackmail, and an assassination or two), how can their society even function well enough to be a galactic power? Everything we've seen suggests that everyone in Klingon society is aligned to one great house or another, whether directly or by proxy.
yeah but DS9 wrapped up the show by killing off Klingon Trump and essentially dismantling the Klingon Empire's cast and honor system, so writers should be free of some of that baggage.
Also i'd love to see some play against type in future episodes.
Cut to dying ensign's pov, the surgeon in chain-mail scrubs holding a double sided scalpel bellows "your body is my battle field!"
Worf, as an outsider, bought the propaganda and modeled himself after how Klingons are supposed to be, what they say they are, in the stories they tell and songs they sing about themselves. Which is why he's so different from most "real" Klingons. He's a true believer, a paragon. (I often compare him to Steve "Captain America" Rogers.)
I would watch a Captain Qo'noS series.
+2
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
They need to Game of Thrones the Klingons up. Each of the Houses should have their own philosophy and culture.
They could even upend the whole Kahless thing by having Klingon historians/heretics who believe that Kahless and Molor were just opposing warlords, one wasn't better or worse than the other, and that people only worship Kahless because he won.
"Worf, you are the most honorable, courageous, amazing man I know. And if even you are willing to put up with this Klingon garbage, what hope does your damn race have?"
Not the exact speech Ezri makes, but close enough.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
+2
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
They need to Game of Thrones the Klingons up. Each of the Houses should have their own philosophy and culture.
They could even upend the whole Kahless thing by having Klingon historians/heretics who believe that Kahless and Molor were just opposing warlords, one wasn't better or worse than the other, and that people only worship Kahless because he won.
I remember seeing a video essay that talked about how Klingon society is based on 'external' honor (all about image and how others see you, and doing what you're expected to do based on some honor code), while Worf, being an outsider and having to figure it out for himself based on what he's seen and heard (like Commander Zoom mentioned), interprets it as 'internal' honor (about his own sense of right and wrong). It was certainly an interesting take.
This basically sums up me in every workplace I've ever been.
Klingon society is based on how rad your crazy eyes are. That's why Gowron was emperor for so long.
Edit: Also, my husband is Lakota and watching Voyager with him is... Woof. I had no idea they did so much stuff with Chakotay and his heritage and stuff and... It isn't great!
Klingon society is based on how rad your crazy eyes are. That's why Gowron was emperor for so long.
Edit: Also, my husband is Lakota and watching Voyager with him is... Woof. I had no idea they did so much stuff with Chakotay and his heritage and stuff and... It isn't great!
Chancellor
For whatever reason Gowron's voice always reminded me of Krusty the Clown, and I could never take him seriously.
+1
Options
SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
Klingon society is based on how rad your crazy eyes are. That's why Gowron was emperor for so long.
Edit: Also, my husband is Lakota and watching Voyager with him is... Woof. I had no idea they did so much stuff with Chakotay and his heritage and stuff and... It isn't great!
Chancellor
For whatever reason Gowron's voice always reminded me of Krusty the Clown, and I could never take him seriously.
Klingon society is based on how rad your crazy eyes are. That's why Gowron was emperor for so long.
Edit: Also, my husband is Lakota and watching Voyager with him is... Woof. I had no idea they did so much stuff with Chakotay and his heritage and stuff and... It isn't great!
Chancellor
For whatever reason Gowron's voice always reminded me of Krusty the Clown, and I could never take him seriously.
Klingon society is based on how rad your crazy eyes are. That's why Gowron was emperor for so long.
Edit: Also, my husband is Lakota and watching Voyager with him is... Woof. I had no idea they did so much stuff with Chakotay and his heritage and stuff and... It isn't great!
Chancellor
For whatever reason Gowron's voice always reminded me of Krusty the Clown, and I could never take him seriously.
Experience Bij, you worm
Who is moving now?!
+5
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Cut to dying ensign's pov, the surgeon in chain-mail scrubs holding a double sided scalpel bellows "your body is my battle field!"
Excited Klingon medical first years standing in the background wearing ponchos like they're front row center at a Gallagher show.
"I AM DR. GOWRON. I WANT YOU TO BE AT EASE IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT I WILL LAY WASTE TO YOUR AILMENTS AS IF THEY WERE AN ARMY OF SICK AND FRIGHTENED OLD MEN. I WILL OPEN YOU UP WITH DEFT SKILL AND VANQUISH YOUR QUAILING ILLNESS. NOW RELAX AS WE BEGIN YOUR SURGERY."
Ninja Snarl P on
+1
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
I might have to rewatch Disco now - it seemed clear to me when I watched it the first time that the different Klingon houses did have cultural differences, just not to the level of “In the House of S’krill, we resolve conflicts with sick DJ battles instead of swordplay!”
Of course, I also think of the uh, less-than-heart-pounding pace and diction of T’Kuvma and his faction’s speech as being the Klingon version of how a stereotypical revival-tent preacher speaks American English, so it is possible that my thirst for new Trek has me watching Disco through some rose-colored glasses.
TIL that Worf is Klingon Captain America, and everything is so much clearer.
But more in reverse. Steve knew the value of strength because he grew up weak. But even though he was a physically superior specimen, Worf was raised humbly, and learned early on that the strong must be careful around the weak, or they might get unintentionally hurt.
There is SO MUCH BANGING IN THIS SHOW OMG GIVE IT A REST
Now that you mentioned it, they do push the boundaries of banging in Trek.
Everything from lizard orgies to first on screen finger banging. https://youtu.be/zMbI_7PHDH0
I might have to rewatch Disco now - it seemed clear to me when I watched it the first time that the different Klingon houses did have cultural differences, just not to the level of “In the House of S’krill, we resolve conflicts with sick DJ battles instead of swordplay!”
Of course, I also think of the uh, less-than-heart-pounding pace and diction of T’Kuvma and his faction’s speech as being the Klingon version of how a stereotypical revival-tent preacher speaks American English, so it is possible that my thirst for new Trek has me watching Disco through some rose-colored glasses.
Isn't one of the disco houses matriarchal and is really into spies?
0
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
edited September 2018
Man, Janeway just gives no shits. She might be the coldest Starfleet captain I've seen.
Edit: not in her personal relationships mind you, I'm saying she is Not To Be Trifled With. Tuvix? COLD AS ICE, SON. AS I C E.
Posts
There's too much morose Klingon opera, and then there's way too much morose Klingon opera.
Space death cultists
Space Russians
Space Vikings
Discovery had an interesting take on them at the start, especially how they viewed the Federation's expansion via soft power, but it quickly devolved into Klingons just naturally being violent conquerors.
It's just hard to take Klingons seriously since 99% of their portrayals have been of warriors of one stripe or another, which automatically turns everything towards honor and glory. How do Klingon chefs view the world? Or doctors? Is all of their art about their mythology and whatnot? Is there a Klingon counterculture?
I think the Klingons could be very interesting if someone took the time to actually think about them as an actual culture. It can't be all Kahless all the time for every Klingon.
Because in every Trek show, it's not the honorable warrior Klingons who actually rise to power, it's the cunning Machievellian ones. In TOS, the Klingons had no problem playing dirty against the Federation, fighting proxy wars, sabotaging colonization efforts, spreading anti-Federation propaganda. In TNG, Duras was the most powerful house and they were very duplicitous. They tried to bribe K'Ehleyr, Picard and Worf to get them on their side. When bribery failed, they tried assassination. And Gowron wasn't very honorable either. But he was very good at using Klingon culture to manipulate people to get what he wanted.
Edit: Also, my husband is Lakota and watching Voyager with him is... Woof. I had no idea they did so much stuff with Chakotay and his heritage and stuff and... It isn't great!
For example, I liked the idea that the Klingons hated the Federation not for their military power but their 'soft' power. But I think this is something that should've been shown rather than just talked about. Show me, say, Klingon parents furious with their kids for drinking Earl Grey (hot) and doing the Vulcan salute.
Also, the idea that the Klingons were a bunch of warring factions who decided to unite to fight the Federation is interesting, but I thought it was weird that the factions were able to come to peace terms in the course of like, one single 5 minute meeting.
"So, hey guys, I know we're all mortal enemies here, and we've been fighting for decades upon decades, but what if we put aside our differences and teamed up?"
"Yeah sure."
"Sounds cool."
There's a reason no newspaper has ever printed the phrase "peace talk", singular! I know with Star Trek you gotta suspend your disbelief a lot but somehow that was a (starship) bridge too far for me. I think it would've been better if the Klingons teaming up happened off screen. Show us Klingons from different factions attacking the Federation in unison, then show the Federation saying "Oh shit, the factions have teamed up!" No need to show us the interfactional diplomatic talk(s).
Yeah I came off like a dick there. Sorry.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I definitely think pretty much everything related to the Klingons was the weakest part of the show.
I don't disagree. It's just that it's really boring at this point. And, like I said, it doesn't make them feel like a real culture. Nothing is done with the idea except to make most Klingons look like hypocrites. There has to be more to these people than honor, glory, and fighting amongst themselves (honorably or not) over chunks of their own empire. And, really, how could that even work from a practical standpoint over the course of centuries? If the great houses are always at odds and fighting for supremacy (even if it's just through alliances, some blackmail, and an assassination or two), how can their society even function well enough to be a galactic power? Everything we've seen suggests that everyone in Klingon society is aligned to one great house or another, whether directly or by proxy.
Also i'd love to see some play against type in future episodes.
Cut to dying ensign's pov, the surgeon in chain-mail scrubs holding a double sided scalpel bellows "your body is my battle field!"
I would watch a Captain Qo'noS series.
>.>
i have that dvd
Excited Klingon medical first years standing in the background wearing ponchos like they're front row center at a Gallagher show.
that's why i always post about how disco is a bad show, how it's disappointing, how it's not star trek, etc etc.
I get that people like it but if the main crux of the show is the klingons and all the klingon stuff is bad THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM
They could even upend the whole Kahless thing by having Klingon historians/heretics who believe that Kahless and Molor were just opposing warlords, one wasn't better or worse than the other, and that people only worship Kahless because he won.
Not the exact speech Ezri makes, but close enough.
wasn't that a ds9 plotline?
There was tons of non Klingon stuff. I just feel like it dragged the show down to maybe a B average when it could have been a solid A-.
This basically sums up me in every workplace I've ever been.
Chancellor
For whatever reason Gowron's voice always reminded me of Krusty the Clown, and I could never take him seriously.
Experience Bij, you worm
D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
Who is moving now?!
"I AM DR. GOWRON. I WANT YOU TO BE AT EASE IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT I WILL LAY WASTE TO YOUR AILMENTS AS IF THEY WERE AN ARMY OF SICK AND FRIGHTENED OLD MEN. I WILL OPEN YOU UP WITH DEFT SKILL AND VANQUISH YOUR QUAILING ILLNESS. NOW RELAX AS WE BEGIN YOUR SURGERY."
Of course, I also think of the uh, less-than-heart-pounding pace and diction of T’Kuvma and his faction’s speech as being the Klingon version of how a stereotypical revival-tent preacher speaks American English, so it is possible that my thirst for new Trek has me watching Disco through some rose-colored glasses.
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But more in reverse. Steve knew the value of strength because he grew up weak. But even though he was a physically superior specimen, Worf was raised humbly, and learned early on that the strong must be careful around the weak, or they might get unintentionally hurt.
He's more like Superman.
Everything from lizard orgies to first on screen finger banging.
https://youtu.be/zMbI_7PHDH0
Isn't one of the disco houses matriarchal and is really into spies?
Edit: not in her personal relationships mind you, I'm saying she is Not To Be Trifled With. Tuvix? COLD AS ICE, SON. AS I C E.