Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
@hawkbox I'm sorry, but I don't know what that has to do with my original point.
Okay, fine, anyone that doesn't fall lock step into OUR way of thinking is a goddamn nazi.
WHAT do you want to do with that?
I'm on your side here and just want to tag onto this.
The "If you're a conservative, you're a Nazi" shit that gets thrown around is an amazing way to actually drive people to that side.
I'm pretty fucking left wing and some of the shit I read, including now in this thread, makes me want to pull my hair out.
It's zero wonder why people don't get engaged in this shit flinging scream-fest.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
No it's not. The alt-right view is based solely on social issues - particularly the furthest right elements of the cons social agenda. The alt-right has almost no stance on any issues that don't relate to race, religion, or gender. They ignore an entire components of conservative politics that are extremely salient to the conservative agenda.
I'm not going to sit here and even argue this point with you. I seriously think the pov that all cons are alt-right loons to be one of the stupidest conclusions one can come to. I don't have time for dismissive, ridiculous ideas like that.
Yes, it is. Conservatism has stances on race, religion and gender that the alt-right, as a facet of conservatism, shares. They also have feelings on government regulation and the like.
Like, wtf are you even arguing? This is all conservative politics. It is the politics of right-wing voters and parties. We've seen the kind of candidates and politicies it supports and creates. Harper, Doug Ford, everything going on in Alberta right now, etc, etc. And that's just looking at Canada. You can look at a wider western world for other very similar examples.
There is nothing about the alt-right that is incompatible with mainstream conservative parties beyond image issues in the press and their members are often intermingling. The Soldiers of Odin example someone mentioned above is a good illustration there.
Your unwillingness to accept the obvious direction conservative politics is heading is just burying your head in the sand and is actively part of the whole problem since the longer we deny it, the worst it gets (not unlike climate change, the denial of which is yet another conservative plank). Just cause you don't want to engage with reality doesn't make it go away. (again, not unlike climate change)
Christ. This is such a bad take that I need to go take a nap.
Who gives a shit about nuance right? If one group agrees with a component from another group it does not mean they're the same thing. How do you explain issues where liberals and cons were on the same page? Are they then the same party? How do you reconcile that with your conclusions? Or does it only apply to the conservatives?
I think it's funny you keep saying it's a "bad take" but have no arguments against it that isn't you ranting about how much just reading the argument angers you. Reality doesn't give a shit if you don't like the answer.
Look out your fucking window and just see what the various right-wing parties of our great nation are doing. What policies are they pushing, what agendas, what candidates. It's all right there in front of your nose. And it's not unique to Canada either.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
Well, if education isn't the solution, what should we be doing?
Somehow the epistemological bubble needs to be broken.
Spoiler - the 'somehow' is through education.
Ok, how do you educate the adults that are voting age right now? That is the more immediate concern.
I'm not sure. Regardless it's outside of the scope of what we're talking about.
Per your other point, people are ridiculously intimidated by the political process. Educating people on said process removes a lot of that fear and as such would encourage more people to take part. Everybody? Never. More? I'd bet my house on it.
Why do you think they do not participate out of fear? I have never seen that point of view expressed. Usually its something about not being able to take the time to vote, or feeling like their choice doesn't matter.
Do you have any literature on that I can read?
It's human nature to fear things we don't understand. Pile on top of that the powder keg that is politics and call-out culture when one's political povs don't align with others and that's absolutely a recipe for indifference over time.
Okay, fine, anyone that doesn't fall lock step into OUR way of thinking is a goddamn nazi.
WHAT do you want to do with that?
Not associating with Neo-Nazis, blanket repudiation of Neo-Nazis, and full on removal of support for any candidate that fails the above. Including expulsion.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
Well, if education isn't the solution, what should we be doing?
Somehow the epistemological bubble needs to be broken.
Spoiler - the 'somehow' is through education.
Ok, how do you educate the adults that are voting age right now? That is the more immediate concern.
I'm not sure. Regardless it's outside of the scope of what we're talking about.
Per your other point, people are ridiculously intimidated by the political process. Educating people on said process removes a lot of that fear and as such would encourage more people to take part. Everybody? Never. More? I'd bet my house on it.
Why do you think they do not participate out of fear? I have never seen that point of view expressed. Usually its something about not being able to take the time to vote, or feeling like their choice doesn't matter.
Do you have any literature on that I can read?
It's human nature to fear things we don't understand. Pile on top of that the powder keg that is politics and call-out culture when one's political povs don't align with others and that's absolutely a recipe for indifference over time.
So you don't actually have any real data on it, its just your personal take on the situation? Then we will just agree to disagree.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
People who ally with Neo-Nazis are Nazi sympathizers. If they don't want to be considered Nazi sympathizers then they should do their best to repudiate Neo-Nazis. Conservative politics is not necessarily Neo-Nazi adjacent, but plenty of Conservative politicians/political parties seem indifferent or apathetic to the association.
Who are we talking about, though? Like, there's millions of people you don't know, and haven't heard say they're not Nazis. Do you believe they're all Nazis until they say they're not?
I don't know about the Sons of Odin, but the Soldiers of Odin are a known white supremacy group that tries to keep up a thin veneer of 'we're totally just a local neighbourhood watchdog type set! Nope, no racist motivators at all!', but it took very little reading of their public Facebook chatter to cast that aside. Like, one guy getting a little too on the nose and being reminded by others about the need to keep up the charade in public.
They used to have a meeting ground near where I live (yay) but it seems the Toronto chapter had some falling out or another? I only caught some fragments of the drama that apparently happened, but I haven't seen them around in a while, so that's a net good in my books.
The names appear to be mildly interchangeable but that is the group I am talking about.
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
This discussion is, quite honestly, kind of eerie, in a way that I can't quite put words to. I've got to imagine this is how it would feel to survive a hurricane, walk to the next town and settle in, and see the storm steadily approach. But many people are assuming their houses are different and will be fine, and are sipping drinks at a cafe as the wind howls closer.
I don't know the answer. My answers are all things that I'm sure people would find extremely unpalatable. But my hackles are raised, and I think there is more danger than a lot of people realize.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
No it's not. The alt-right view is based solely on social issues - particularly the furthest right elements of the cons social agenda. The alt-right has almost no stance on any issues that don't relate to race, religion, or gender. They ignore an entire components of conservative politics that are extremely salient to the conservative agenda.
I'm not going to sit here and even argue this point with you. I seriously think the pov that all cons are alt-right loons to be one of the stupidest conclusions one can come to. I don't have time for dismissive, ridiculous ideas like that.
If you welcome those people into your club then you don't get to pretend your club isn't about those things, regardless of how self righteous you want to get about it.
Okay, fine, anyone that doesn't fall lock step into OUR way of thinking is a goddamn nazi.
WHAT do you want to do with that?
Not literally and completely misrepresent the point we're making would be a good start.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
I love this shit.
No, go ahead, don't pay attention to what I'm saying. Just keep on your straight and narrow minded path. You're sure to win hearts and minds by declaring anyone on the right as a fucking nazi. No extremism there at all.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
What do you suggest then? Because frankly, if they're on the same page as the Sons of Odin they are my enemy. They preach hate and division and we're just supposed to meekly try to build bridges with hateful bigots?
I suggest not saying anyone who is on the right is one of them.
Okay, fine, anyone that doesn't fall lock step into OUR way of thinking is a goddamn nazi.
WHAT do you want to do with that?
I'm on your side here and just want to tag onto this.
The "If you're a conservative, you're a Nazi" shit that gets thrown around is an amazing way to actually drive people to that side.
I'm pretty fucking left wing and some of the shit I read, including now in this thread, makes me want to pull my hair out.
It's zero wonder why people don't get engaged in this shit flinging scream-fest.
If calling out conservatives for being cool with nazi's is going to turn them into a nazi, they were already a nazi.
This discussion is, quite honestly, kind of eerie, in a way that I can't quite put words to. I've got to imagine this is how it would feel to survive a hurricane, walk to the next town and settle in, and see the storm steadily approach. But many people are assuming their houses are different and will be fine, and are sipping drinks at a cafe as the wind howls closer.
I don't know the answer. My answers are all things that I'm sure people would find extremely unpalatable. But my hackles are raised, and I think there is more danger than a lot of people realize.
Aye. A look around at right-wing politics across the western world should leave you deeply troubled about where Canada could be moving. Because there is a strong commonality and we are seeing stirrings of it already.
A common problem is exactly what we see here: a complete unwillingness to remove oneself from the frame of "it's just people arguing over politics" and really consider if there are larger dangers to the system itself at work.
There's a reason the very first section of the Charter reads:
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
It behooves us to consider that maybe it's not all gonna be ok and that the ultimately it's just friendly policy disagreements at work.
How so?
Specifically with regards to not informing youth on the political process.
If they have been mentally trained to reject all information except for what aligns with the right-wing view of history and politics they have been indoctrinated in, the process doesn't matter any more.
When your education has told you that: the US is a Christian nation and Moses was a central figure in influencing the Constitution, that Nazism is left wing and Socialism is Fascism, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, etc., you're only going to listen to and vote for people who reinforce your views.
The political process isn't the issue. The issue is that we're forming cultural bubbles that are grounded in completely incompatible epistemological and historiographical views. That process has been going on all across the English speaking world.
I never said the political process was the issue. I said it was education around the political process, which you seem to agree with.
I'm honestly not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point. That because things are bad we should just do nothing to try and make it better?
Once one side of your political divide starts trying to set an education agenda, and the other side perceives it as a threat, you will have turned education into a partisan issue like it is in the US, which will simply further inflame the partisan divide.
Well, if education isn't the solution, what should we be doing?
Somehow the epistemological bubble needs to be broken.
Spoiler - the 'somehow' is through education.
Ok, how do you educate the adults that are voting age right now? That is the more immediate concern.
I'm not sure. Regardless it's outside of the scope of what we're talking about.
Per your other point, people are ridiculously intimidated by the political process. Educating people on said process removes a lot of that fear and as such would encourage more people to take part. Everybody? Never. More? I'd bet my house on it.
Why do you think they do not participate out of fear? I have never seen that point of view expressed. Usually its something about not being able to take the time to vote, or feeling like their choice doesn't matter.
Do you have any literature on that I can read?
It's human nature to fear things we don't understand. Pile on top of that the powder keg that is politics and call-out culture when one's political povs don't align with others and that's absolutely a recipe for indifference over time.
So you don't actually have any real data on it, its just your personal take on the situation? Then we will just agree to disagree.
It's not my job to do academic research for you. This is a discussion board, not a peer-reviewed academic journal.
Okay, fine, anyone that doesn't fall lock step into OUR way of thinking is a goddamn nazi.
WHAT do you want to do with that?
Lots of things!
First, we absolutely, and I mean it's probably the single most important thing to do to remove this entire problem, need to have election reform. There is currently only one "conservative party" that has any play on a federal level. The so-called "moderate conservatives" that supposedly exist and aren't alt-right loons benefit from the alt-right loons agreeing with them. They also want conservative over liberal, and so let themselves get dragged further and further into the alt-right because hey, what are they going to do, let the Liberals win?! As soon as there's a system like instant run-off or proportional representation (or some other system, really) and conservatives have an option of saying "I'm a moral conservative who is part of a different group than the nazis", then maybe we'll stop seeing conservatives just becoming nazis.
Second, we need to have the non-Nazi politicians clearly and directly condemn all the Nazi shit that's popping up. No photo-ops with white supremacists, no dogwhitsling about 'fraud in the welfare system' that's just about hating poor people. No talk about 'demographics changes'. No "it's a scary time for young men" bullshit. Everyone who isn't part of the alt-right needs to make that abundantly clear, and needs to make it clear that the alt-right are wrong, and that Nazis are bad. Of course, they don't currently do that because they want the Nazi votes, which, again, is why I have no problem calling the whole lot of them nazis.
Third, the media needs to stop pretending that centrism has implicit value. Centrism and compromise is fine when there are two positions that have some merit. When the positions are "stop letting refugees in" and "keep letting refugees in", there is nothing noble about "start keeping some refugees out". When everyone pretends that there is something implicitly good in compromise and centrism, the alt-right will just continue to get crazier and crazier, because, hey, they're just getting less of what they wanted, but still what they wanted. This one's harder because it also involves a society-level change.
Fourth, we need to fully and finally divorce education curriculum from politics. Even the idea that politicians can change the educational curriculum, or that uninformed voters can change the education curriculum, is bonkers. And it doesn't happen anywhere else. Nobody looks at a new bridge and says "Well back in my day we built bridges differently, and I personally have never been on one while it collapsed, so we really need these crazy engineers to stop with these new-fangled structures that I don't understand". I 100% trust that people who spend their lives learning about education know more about education than me.
Fifth, we need to enshrine that nobody can be too poor to live, no matter what. I don't care if they do drugs, I don't care if they have done crimes, they still get to live. There is no lifestyle that means it's ok for someone to starve to death or die of exposure on the street. If they're a threat to society then we deal with that part, but we still don't just say "Well fucking starve to death, that's what you get for being addicted to a highly addicted substance"
If we get those, then I'll start believing that there could be this mythical moral conservative that I keep hearing about.
No, go ahead, don't pay attention to what I'm saying. Just keep on your straight and narrow minded path. You're sure to win hearts and minds by declaring anyone on the right as a fucking nazi. No extremism there at all.
We are paying attention to what you are saying. You keep trying to act like the other side can't be that bad because you just don't want to believe it.
The CAQ, while being a xenophobic party, managed to still pass the absolute minimum requirement of not accepting the endorsement of litteral fascists like Marine Le Pen.
I have no problem calling parties who are not even capable of this what they are. If you care about the opinion of fascists, you are one.
Okay, fine, anyone that doesn't fall lock step into OUR way of thinking is a goddamn nazi.
WHAT do you want to do with that?
Lots of things!
First, we absolutely, and I mean it's probably the single most important thing to do to remove this entire problem, need to have election reform. There is currently only one "conservative party" that has any play on a federal level. The so-called "moderate conservatives" that supposedly exist and aren't alt-right loons benefit from the alt-right loons agreeing with them. They also want conservative over liberal, and so let themselves get dragged further and further into the alt-right because hey, what are they going to do, let the Liberals win?! As soon as there's a system like instant run-off or proportional representation (or some other system, really) and conservatives have an option of saying "I'm a moral conservative who is part of a different group than the nazis", then maybe we'll stop seeing conservatives just becoming nazis.
Second, we need to have the non-Nazi politicians clearly and directly condemn all the Nazi shit that's popping up. No photo-ops with white supremacists, no dogwhitsling about 'fraud in the welfare system' that's just about hating poor people. No talk about 'demographics changes'. No "it's a scary time for young men" bullshit. Everyone who isn't part of the alt-right needs to make that abundantly clear, and needs to make it clear that the alt-right are wrong, and that Nazis are bad. Of course, they don't currently do that because they want the Nazi votes, which, again, is why I have no problem calling the whole lot of them nazis.
Third, the media needs to stop pretending that centrism has implicit value. Centrism and compromise is fine when there are two positions that have some merit. When the positions are "stop letting refugees in" and "keep letting refugees in", there is nothing noble about "start keeping some refugees out". When everyone pretends that there is something implicitly good in compromise and centrism, the alt-right will just continue to get crazier and crazier, because, hey, they're just getting less of what they wanted, but still what they wanted. This one's harder because it also involves a society-level change.
Fourth, we need to fully and finally divorce education curriculum from politics. Even the idea that politicians can change the educational curriculum, or that uninformed voters can change the education curriculum, is bonkers. And it doesn't happen anywhere else. Nobody looks at a new bridge and says "Well back in my day we built bridges differently, and I personally have never been on one while it collapsed, so we really need these crazy engineers to stop with these new-fangled structures that I don't understand". I 100% trust that people who spend their lives learning about education know more about education than me.
Fifth, we need to enshrine that nobody can be too poor to live, no matter what. I don't care if they do drugs, I don't care if they have done crimes, they still get to live. There is no lifestyle that means it's ok for someone to starve to death or die of exposure on the street. If they're a threat to society then we deal with that part, but we still don't just say "Well fucking starve to death, that's what you get for being addicted to a highly addicted substance"
If we get those, then I'll start believing that there could be this mythical moral conservative that I keep hearing about.
Okay, fine, anyone that doesn't fall lock step into OUR way of thinking is a goddamn nazi.
WHAT do you want to do with that?
I'm on your side here and just want to tag onto this.
The "If you're a conservative, you're a Nazi" shit that gets thrown around is an amazing way to actually drive people to that side.
I'm pretty fucking left wing and some of the shit I read, including now in this thread, makes me want to pull my hair out.
It's zero wonder why people don't get engaged in this shit flinging scream-fest.
Yeah, and it's my wife's fault she got hit, right?
To get back to the core issue that started this discussion, it feels like we essentially need to up the game of left wing fact finding and truth telling.
Like Snopes is great, and some aspects of some media is nice like Colbert, Oliver, Stewart, Noah, Mercer, etc.
But we need to amplify them, without making them susceptible to right wing executive meddling ie: CBC
And yes, this means an escalation into a kind of propaganda battle, but it feels like we are already there but one side isn't really fighting back. Much like the Class Warfare battle.
MWO: Adamski
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Well, let's take this to the logical conclusion then.
I may not agree everyone on the right is a nazi, but it seems to be a super unpopular position to take, but I don't know that agreeing with you means or achieves anything anyway. Lets say you're right, that conservatism is nazism. What now? I mean, if that's true, I think, as Shivahn put it, the coming storm is inevitable. If fully half the country is totally on board for fascism and genocide, then all hope is lost. We cannot possibly combat that.
If the process taking place in Canada's right is anything like the process that went on in the US right, the right is radicalizing itself.
Conservatives attract radical voters, radical voters get mad when the conservatives don't go far enough, and they keep putting even more radical conservatives in power until what were once dogwhistles is now open policy.
That happens independent of what anyone on left says, because they don't care what the left thinks.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
No it's not. The alt-right view is based solely on social issues - particularly the furthest right elements of the cons social agenda. The alt-right has almost no stance on any issues that don't relate to race, religion, or gender. They ignore an entire components of conservative politics that are extremely salient to the conservative agenda.
I'm not going to sit here and even argue this point with you. I seriously think the pov that all cons are alt-right loons to be one of the stupidest conclusions one can come to. I don't have time for dismissive, ridiculous ideas like that.
Yes, it is. Conservatism has stances on race, religion and gender that the alt-right, as a facet of conservatism, shares. They also have feelings on government regulation and the like.
Like, wtf are you even arguing? This is all conservative politics. It is the politics of right-wing voters and parties. We've seen the kind of candidates and politicies it supports and creates. Harper, Doug Ford, everything going on in Alberta right now, etc, etc. And that's just looking at Canada. You can look at a wider western world for other very similar examples.
There is nothing about the alt-right that is incompatible with mainstream conservative parties beyond image issues in the press and their members are often intermingling. The Soldiers of Odin example someone mentioned above is a good illustration there.
Your unwillingness to accept the obvious direction conservative politics is heading is just burying your head in the sand and is actively part of the whole problem since the longer we deny it, the worst it gets (not unlike climate change, the denial of which is yet another conservative plank). Just cause you don't want to engage with reality doesn't make it go away. (again, not unlike climate change)
Christ. This is such a bad take that I need to go take a nap.
Who gives a shit about nuance right? If one group agrees with a component from another group it does not mean they're the same thing. How do you explain issues where liberals and cons were on the same page? Are they then the same party? How do you reconcile that with your conclusions? Or does it only apply to the conservatives?
I think it's funny you keep saying it's a "bad take" but have no arguments against it that isn't you ranting about how much just reading the argument angers you. Reality doesn't give a shit if you don't like the answer.
Look out your fucking window and just see what the various right-wing parties of our great nation are doing. What policies are they pushing, what agendas, what candidates. It's all right there in front of your nose. And it's not unique to Canada either.
You're doing literally the same thing. I also did present arguments back.
There's literally no logical ground to stand on to say "These two things share the same 'values' wrt to one issue, therefore they are the same thing.".
It just doesn't make sense from a very basic standpoint. You're also ignoring the fact that political parties are made up of people and aren't actually living things on their own. Support of something doesn't mean someone buys into it 100%.
For example, there are people out there that vote conservative for purely economic reasons. That party still reflects their constituent'ss economic interest. These are people that vote strictly for economic reasons. It doesn't make sense for those people to turn on a dime and vote liberal - against their economic interests. That does not mean those people are nazis or nazi sympathizers.
To get back to the core issue that started this discussion, it feels like we essentially need to up the game of left wing fact finding and truth telling.
Like Snopes is great, and some aspects of some media is nice like Colbert, Oliver, Stewart, Noah, Mercer, etc.
But we need to amplify them, without making them susceptible to right wing executive meddling ie: CBC
And yes, this means an escalation into a kind of propaganda battle, but it feels like we are already there but one side isn't really fighting back. Much like the Class Warfare battle.
Part of the problem is when we fight back we get told we're being mean and causing those poor innocent conservatives to become literal nazi's by calling out them openly associating with said group.
How do you fight back on something like that when a large portion of the "left" values civility over decency?
No, go ahead, don't pay attention to what I'm saying. Just keep on your straight and narrow minded path. You're sure to win hearts and minds by declaring anyone on the right as a fucking nazi. No extremism there at all.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The UCP (Our PC/Wildrose conservative/right wing team up) is literally getting photo ops in with the Sons of Odin white supremacist group. I don't expect that to hurt them at all.
So in our brave new world, there's just us and them? Anyone that doesn't line up with our political views is the enemy?
If that's true, then we've already lost.
What do you suggest then? Because frankly, if they're on the same page as the Sons of Odin they are my enemy. They preach hate and division and we're just supposed to meekly try to build bridges with hateful bigots?
I suggest not saying anyone who is on the right is one of them.
If a politician is engaging in photo-ops with the Sons/Soldiers of Odin they are not just anyone on the right, they are at best a Nazi sympathizer. They need to be expelled from their Party, even at the cost of a Seat.
To get back to the core issue that started this discussion, it feels like we essentially need to up the game of left wing fact finding and truth telling.
Like Snopes is great, and some aspects of some media is nice like Colbert, Oliver, Stewart, Noah, Mercer, etc.
But we need to amplify them, without making them susceptible to right wing executive meddling ie: CBC
And yes, this means an escalation into a kind of propaganda battle, but it feels like we are already there but one side isn't really fighting back. Much like the Class Warfare battle.
That won't work. All of that is already branded to them as "fake news." Their epistemological bubble rejects it out of hand.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
This discussion is, quite honestly, kind of eerie, in a way that I can't quite put words to. I've got to imagine this is how it would feel to survive a hurricane, walk to the next town and settle in, and see the storm steadily approach. But many people are assuming their houses are different and will be fine, and are sipping drinks at a cafe as the wind howls closer.
I don't know the answer. My answers are all things that I'm sure people would find extremely unpalatable. But my hackles are raised, and I think there is more danger than a lot of people realize.
Aye. A look around at right-wing politics across the western world should leave you deeply troubled about where Canada could be moving. Because there is a strong commonality and we are seeing stirrings of it already.
A common problem is exactly what we see here: a complete unwillingness to remove oneself from the frame of "it's just people arguing over politics" and really consider if there are larger dangers to the system itself at work.
Yeah, I think it's incredibly naive of people to think that we can just talk it out with conservatives at this point. Or employ some kind of educational reform to combat fake news proliferation. That stuff happens on social media - people really think that some parcels of information in schooling will help? There's very little chance that any sort of regulations will make an impact (or even happen), so the left is being given few choices here.
Whatever, there may be a few 'good ones', that can still be swayed by reason, but the descent is real and as you said it's happening worldwide and it can and in all possibility will happen in Canada as well.
I mean, I'm sorry that it may seem like it's coming to 'us vs them', but what else are you going to do with what's happening now, politically? Conservatism has been and is being corrupted, it's sliding and it's not getting brought back to what it was - if that was even ever anything good. It's a regressive ideology and always has been.
I know it's frightening to people to think that this is where we're at.
Okay, fine, anyone that doesn't fall lock step into OUR way of thinking is a goddamn nazi.
WHAT do you want to do with that?
I'm on your side here and just want to tag onto this.
The "If you're a conservative, you're a Nazi" shit that gets thrown around is an amazing way to actually drive people to that side.
I'm pretty fucking left wing and some of the shit I read, including now in this thread, makes me want to pull my hair out.
It's zero wonder why people don't get engaged in this shit flinging scream-fest.
If calling out conservatives for being cool with nazi's is going to turn them into a nazi, they were already a nazi.
For real, you can't be driven to Nazihood by some pettiness over language and tone. If you are that sensitive to harshness in political discourse and you decide 'well, fuck it the nazis look nicer', then were you ever really liberal? If you're driven to that side over discourse, you're privileging yourself over the people who are and will suffer as this gains momentum.
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
No it's not. The alt-right view is based solely on social issues - particularly the furthest right elements of the cons social agenda. The alt-right has almost no stance on any issues that don't relate to race, religion, or gender. They ignore an entire components of conservative politics that are extremely salient to the conservative agenda.
I'm not going to sit here and even argue this point with you. I seriously think the pov that all cons are alt-right loons to be one of the stupidest conclusions one can come to. I don't have time for dismissive, ridiculous ideas like that.
Yes, it is. Conservatism has stances on race, religion and gender that the alt-right, as a facet of conservatism, shares. They also have feelings on government regulation and the like.
Like, wtf are you even arguing? This is all conservative politics. It is the politics of right-wing voters and parties. We've seen the kind of candidates and politicies it supports and creates. Harper, Doug Ford, everything going on in Alberta right now, etc, etc. And that's just looking at Canada. You can look at a wider western world for other very similar examples.
There is nothing about the alt-right that is incompatible with mainstream conservative parties beyond image issues in the press and their members are often intermingling. The Soldiers of Odin example someone mentioned above is a good illustration there.
Your unwillingness to accept the obvious direction conservative politics is heading is just burying your head in the sand and is actively part of the whole problem since the longer we deny it, the worst it gets (not unlike climate change, the denial of which is yet another conservative plank). Just cause you don't want to engage with reality doesn't make it go away. (again, not unlike climate change)
Christ. This is such a bad take that I need to go take a nap.
Who gives a shit about nuance right? If one group agrees with a component from another group it does not mean they're the same thing. How do you explain issues where liberals and cons were on the same page? Are they then the same party? How do you reconcile that with your conclusions? Or does it only apply to the conservatives?
I think it's funny you keep saying it's a "bad take" but have no arguments against it that isn't you ranting about how much just reading the argument angers you. Reality doesn't give a shit if you don't like the answer.
Look out your fucking window and just see what the various right-wing parties of our great nation are doing. What policies are they pushing, what agendas, what candidates. It's all right there in front of your nose. And it's not unique to Canada either.
You're doing literally the same thing. I also did present arguments back.
There's literally no logical ground to stand on to say "These two things share the same 'values' wrt to one issue, therefore they are the same thing.".
It just doesn't make sense from a very basic standpoint. You're also ignoring the fact that political parties are made up of people and aren't actually living things on their own. Support of something doesn't mean someone buys into it 100%.
For example, there are people out there that vote conservative for purely economic reasons. That party still reflects their constituent'ss economic interest. These are people that vote strictly for economic reasons. It doesn't make sense for those people to turn on a dime and vote liberal - against their economic interests. That does not mean those people are nazis or nazi sympathizers.
It means that they are fine with nazi's if they support their economic interests, which means they are functionally nazi sympathizers. If Jagmeet Singh suddenly has Khmer Rouge members in photo ops I'm not going to let that slide because other things are in line with my interest.
Nazis took power by being elected for their economic agenda and opposition to communism.
Yeah the alt-right does have an economic agenda - their men should be in charge of the economy and the absolute winners of economic outcomes.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
No it's not. The alt-right view is based solely on social issues - particularly the furthest right elements of the cons social agenda. The alt-right has almost no stance on any issues that don't relate to race, religion, or gender. They ignore an entire components of conservative politics that are extremely salient to the conservative agenda.
I'm not going to sit here and even argue this point with you. I seriously think the pov that all cons are alt-right loons to be one of the stupidest conclusions one can come to. I don't have time for dismissive, ridiculous ideas like that.
Yes, it is. Conservatism has stances on race, religion and gender that the alt-right, as a facet of conservatism, shares. They also have feelings on government regulation and the like.
Like, wtf are you even arguing? This is all conservative politics. It is the politics of right-wing voters and parties. We've seen the kind of candidates and politicies it supports and creates. Harper, Doug Ford, everything going on in Alberta right now, etc, etc. And that's just looking at Canada. You can look at a wider western world for other very similar examples.
There is nothing about the alt-right that is incompatible with mainstream conservative parties beyond image issues in the press and their members are often intermingling. The Soldiers of Odin example someone mentioned above is a good illustration there.
Your unwillingness to accept the obvious direction conservative politics is heading is just burying your head in the sand and is actively part of the whole problem since the longer we deny it, the worst it gets (not unlike climate change, the denial of which is yet another conservative plank). Just cause you don't want to engage with reality doesn't make it go away. (again, not unlike climate change)
Christ. This is such a bad take that I need to go take a nap.
Who gives a shit about nuance right? If one group agrees with a component from another group it does not mean they're the same thing. How do you explain issues where liberals and cons were on the same page? Are they then the same party? How do you reconcile that with your conclusions? Or does it only apply to the conservatives?
I think it's funny you keep saying it's a "bad take" but have no arguments against it that isn't you ranting about how much just reading the argument angers you. Reality doesn't give a shit if you don't like the answer.
Look out your fucking window and just see what the various right-wing parties of our great nation are doing. What policies are they pushing, what agendas, what candidates. It's all right there in front of your nose. And it's not unique to Canada either.
You're doing literally the same thing. I also did present arguments back.
There's literally no logical ground to stand on to say "These two things share the same 'values' wrt to one issue, therefore they are the same thing.".
It just doesn't make sense from a very basic standpoint. You're also ignoring the fact that political parties are made up of people and aren't actually living things on their own. Support of something doesn't mean someone buys into it 100%.
For example, there are people out there that vote conservative for purely economic reasons. That party still reflects their constituent'ss economic interest. These are people that vote strictly for economic reasons. It doesn't make sense for those people to turn on a dime and vote liberal - against their economic interests. That does not mean those people are nazis or nazi sympathizers.
It might not mean that they're nazis, but they certainly are benefiting from nazis gaining power, and they're also helping nazis gain power. So what does it actually matter that they did it because they wanted tax breaks?
Well, let's take this to the logical conclusion then.
I may not agree everyone on the right is a nazi, but it seems to be a super unpopular position to take, but I don't know that agreeing with you means or achieves anything anyway. Lets say you're right, that conservatism is nazism. What now? I mean, if that's true, I think, as Shivahn put it, the coming storm is inevitable. If fully half the country is totally on board for fascism and genocide, then all hope is lost. We cannot possibly combat that.
Hell, take it a step further.
I'm about as left wing as you can get. I vote green. I march in parades. I protest. I'm engaged in extra-curricular groups that support multiculturalism, LGBTQ2 rights, etc. I believe strongly in making Canada a more diverse place. Myself and my friends have been threatened by right wing groups like the Northern Guard for our activism. Yet because I advocate for the legitimacy of the conservative party, I too am apparently a nazi.
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ArcticLancerBest served chilled.Registered Userregular
No, go ahead, don't pay attention to what I'm saying. Just keep on your straight and narrow minded path. You're sure to win hearts and minds by declaring anyone on the right as a fucking nazi. No extremism there at all.
We are paying attention to what you are saying. You keep trying to act like the other side can't be that bad because you just don't want to believe it.
No you aren't. Nova's entire point is that there is hyper generalization going on here. The argument has been - for several pages - that there is more in the political right than JUST the alt-right, and too big a brush is being used to say "No, the alt-right is all there is." =_=
Yeah, I don't get the conflation of conservative politics with alt-right politics - or at least the unwillingness by some to separate the two. I mean, I understand the argument people make but it's honestly quite stupid.
Not to mention, when I'm talking about education I'm literally talking about educating youths wrt how the democratic process works. It can be completely politically agnostic.
The alt-right is conservative politics. It's just the newest face on the same ideas. Partially through shifts in what it turns out you can actually get away with, partially through generational turn-over. What's quite stupid is ignoring what's happening with right-wing politics across the western world.
And Doug Ford's education changes should pretty simply demonstrate why your belief that it's as simple as educating youths is not all that simple
or realistic just on it's own. The right gets to set the curriculum too.
Political Science is already taught nation-wide at the highschool level.
I'd also argue that the alt-right is not conservative politics, it is a bastardization of conservative politics.
The alt-right is not a bastardization of anything. It's just politics as practised by conservatives. It's really broader then the alt-right anyway since it's more a matter of "look what politics the right is actually pushing and supporting". And some particular facets of that we call the alt-right but really it's just conservative politics. It's the policies and ideas conservatives are pushing.
No it's not. The alt-right view is based solely on social issues - particularly the furthest right elements of the cons social agenda. The alt-right has almost no stance on any issues that don't relate to race, religion, or gender. They ignore an entire components of conservative politics that are extremely salient to the conservative agenda.
I'm not going to sit here and even argue this point with you. I seriously think the pov that all cons are alt-right loons to be one of the stupidest conclusions one can come to. I don't have time for dismissive, ridiculous ideas like that.
Yes, it is. Conservatism has stances on race, religion and gender that the alt-right, as a facet of conservatism, shares. They also have feelings on government regulation and the like.
Like, wtf are you even arguing? This is all conservative politics. It is the politics of right-wing voters and parties. We've seen the kind of candidates and politicies it supports and creates. Harper, Doug Ford, everything going on in Alberta right now, etc, etc. And that's just looking at Canada. You can look at a wider western world for other very similar examples.
There is nothing about the alt-right that is incompatible with mainstream conservative parties beyond image issues in the press and their members are often intermingling. The Soldiers of Odin example someone mentioned above is a good illustration there.
Your unwillingness to accept the obvious direction conservative politics is heading is just burying your head in the sand and is actively part of the whole problem since the longer we deny it, the worst it gets (not unlike climate change, the denial of which is yet another conservative plank). Just cause you don't want to engage with reality doesn't make it go away. (again, not unlike climate change)
Christ. This is such a bad take that I need to go take a nap.
Who gives a shit about nuance right? If one group agrees with a component from another group it does not mean they're the same thing. How do you explain issues where liberals and cons were on the same page? Are they then the same party? How do you reconcile that with your conclusions? Or does it only apply to the conservatives?
I think it's funny you keep saying it's a "bad take" but have no arguments against it that isn't you ranting about how much just reading the argument angers you. Reality doesn't give a shit if you don't like the answer.
Look out your fucking window and just see what the various right-wing parties of our great nation are doing. What policies are they pushing, what agendas, what candidates. It's all right there in front of your nose. And it's not unique to Canada either.
You're doing literally the same thing. I also did present arguments back.
There's literally no logical ground to stand on to say "These two things share the same 'values' wrt to one issue, therefore they are the same thing.".
It just doesn't make sense from a very basic standpoint. You're also ignoring the fact that political parties are made up of people and aren't actually living things on their own. Support of something doesn't mean someone buys into it 100%.
For example, there are people out there that vote conservative for purely economic reasons. That party still reflects their constituent'ss economic interest. These are people that vote strictly for economic reasons. It doesn't make sense for those people to turn on a dime and vote liberal - against their economic interests. That does not mean those people are nazis or nazi sympathizers.
It might not mean that they're nazis, but they certainly are benefiting from nazis gaining power, and they're also helping nazis gain power. So what does it actually matter that they did it because they wanted tax breaks?
Yes ...Casually circles back to how this all started with educating people. <_<
Well, let's take this to the logical conclusion then.
I may not agree everyone on the right is a nazi, but it seems to be a super unpopular position to take, but I don't know that agreeing with you means or achieves anything anyway. Lets say you're right, that conservatism is nazism. What now? I mean, if that's true, I think, as Shivahn put it, the coming storm is inevitable. If fully half the country is totally on board for fascism and genocide, then all hope is lost. We cannot possibly combat that.
Hell, take it a step further.
I'm about as left wing as you can get. I vote green. I march in parades. I protest. I'm engaged in extra-curricular groups that support multiculturalism, LGBTQ2 rights, etc. I believe strongly in making Canada a more diverse place. Myself and my friends have been threatened by right wing groups like the Northern Guard for our activism. Yet because I advocate for the legitimacy of the conservative party, I too am apparently a nazi.
You're right, schools really do need to focus more on teaching reading comprehension.
Well, let's take this to the logical conclusion then.
I may not agree everyone on the right is a nazi, but it seems to be a super unpopular position to take, but I don't know that agreeing with you means or achieves anything anyway. Lets say you're right, that conservatism is nazism. What now? I mean, if that's true, I think, as Shivahn put it, the coming storm is inevitable. If fully half the country is totally on board for fascism and genocide, then all hope is lost. We cannot possibly combat that.
Hell, take it a step further.
I'm about as left wing as you can get. I vote green. I march in parades. I protest. I'm engaged in extra-curricular groups that support multiculturalism, LGBTQ2 rights, etc. I believe strongly in making Canada a more diverse place. Myself and my friends have been threatened by right wing groups like the Northern Guard for our activism. Yet because I advocate for the legitimacy of the conservative party, I too am apparently a nazi.
You're right, schools really do need to focus more on teaching reading comprehension.
You have anything to contribute to the conversation or are you just here to be an asshole?
Let me put it this way. I loathe the CAQ, they are a bunch of right wing xenophobic geeses, and will be a disaster for Québec. I also loathe the PLQ because they are a bunch of right wing corrupted geeses.
Both managed to pass the minimum threshold of refusing to accept the support of fascists, so I don't call them fascists.
I would appreciate it if Legault started to ask himself why fascists keep trying to support him, but that's something else.
Also @Jephery if you want an indication for how intimidating politics can be just look at the last two pages of discourse here that was provoked by my mere suggestion that we do more political education in schools.
To get back to the core issue that started this discussion, it feels like we essentially need to up the game of left wing fact finding and truth telling.
Like Snopes is great, and some aspects of some media is nice like Colbert, Oliver, Stewart, Noah, Mercer, etc.
But we need to amplify them, without making them susceptible to right wing executive meddling ie: CBC
And yes, this means an escalation into a kind of propaganda battle, but it feels like we are already there but one side isn't really fighting back. Much like the Class Warfare battle.
Part of the problem is when we fight back we get told we're being mean and causing those poor innocent conservatives to become literal nazi's by calling out them openly associating with said group.
How do you fight back on something like that when a large portion of the "left" values civility over decency?
The people saying we are being mean are the right wing or right leaning media sources. They are never going to approve or let something go if it helps the left.
The people who value civility above all else would admonish a victim to cry out more quietly so as not to make them uncomfortable.
Do not let them influence us into silencing ourselves.
Also Jephery if you want an indication for how intimidating politics can be just look at the last two pages of discourse here that was provoked by my mere suggestion that we do more political education in schools.
You're responding to the real life example of the US education system being politicized by partisan epistemological differences with your own personal perception of why people don't participate in politics like you want them to.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Posts
I'm on your side here and just want to tag onto this.
The "If you're a conservative, you're a Nazi" shit that gets thrown around is an amazing way to actually drive people to that side.
I'm pretty fucking left wing and some of the shit I read, including now in this thread, makes me want to pull my hair out.
It's zero wonder why people don't get engaged in this shit flinging scream-fest.
I think it's funny you keep saying it's a "bad take" but have no arguments against it that isn't you ranting about how much just reading the argument angers you. Reality doesn't give a shit if you don't like the answer.
Look out your fucking window and just see what the various right-wing parties of our great nation are doing. What policies are they pushing, what agendas, what candidates. It's all right there in front of your nose. And it's not unique to Canada either.
It's human nature to fear things we don't understand. Pile on top of that the powder keg that is politics and call-out culture when one's political povs don't align with others and that's absolutely a recipe for indifference over time.
Not associating with Neo-Nazis, blanket repudiation of Neo-Nazis, and full on removal of support for any candidate that fails the above. Including expulsion.
So you don't actually have any real data on it, its just your personal take on the situation? Then we will just agree to disagree.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
The names appear to be mildly interchangeable but that is the group I am talking about.
I don't know the answer. My answers are all things that I'm sure people would find extremely unpalatable. But my hackles are raised, and I think there is more danger than a lot of people realize.
If you welcome those people into your club then you don't get to pretend your club isn't about those things, regardless of how self righteous you want to get about it.
Not literally and completely misrepresent the point we're making would be a good start.
No, go ahead, don't pay attention to what I'm saying. Just keep on your straight and narrow minded path. You're sure to win hearts and minds by declaring anyone on the right as a fucking nazi. No extremism there at all.
I suggest not saying anyone who is on the right is one of them.
If calling out conservatives for being cool with nazi's is going to turn them into a nazi, they were already a nazi.
Aye. A look around at right-wing politics across the western world should leave you deeply troubled about where Canada could be moving. Because there is a strong commonality and we are seeing stirrings of it already.
A common problem is exactly what we see here: a complete unwillingness to remove oneself from the frame of "it's just people arguing over politics" and really consider if there are larger dangers to the system itself at work.
There's a reason the very first section of the Charter reads:
It behooves us to consider that maybe it's not all gonna be ok and that the ultimately it's just friendly policy disagreements at work.
It's not my job to do academic research for you. This is a discussion board, not a peer-reviewed academic journal.
Lots of things!
First, we absolutely, and I mean it's probably the single most important thing to do to remove this entire problem, need to have election reform. There is currently only one "conservative party" that has any play on a federal level. The so-called "moderate conservatives" that supposedly exist and aren't alt-right loons benefit from the alt-right loons agreeing with them. They also want conservative over liberal, and so let themselves get dragged further and further into the alt-right because hey, what are they going to do, let the Liberals win?! As soon as there's a system like instant run-off or proportional representation (or some other system, really) and conservatives have an option of saying "I'm a moral conservative who is part of a different group than the nazis", then maybe we'll stop seeing conservatives just becoming nazis.
Second, we need to have the non-Nazi politicians clearly and directly condemn all the Nazi shit that's popping up. No photo-ops with white supremacists, no dogwhitsling about 'fraud in the welfare system' that's just about hating poor people. No talk about 'demographics changes'. No "it's a scary time for young men" bullshit. Everyone who isn't part of the alt-right needs to make that abundantly clear, and needs to make it clear that the alt-right are wrong, and that Nazis are bad. Of course, they don't currently do that because they want the Nazi votes, which, again, is why I have no problem calling the whole lot of them nazis.
Third, the media needs to stop pretending that centrism has implicit value. Centrism and compromise is fine when there are two positions that have some merit. When the positions are "stop letting refugees in" and "keep letting refugees in", there is nothing noble about "start keeping some refugees out". When everyone pretends that there is something implicitly good in compromise and centrism, the alt-right will just continue to get crazier and crazier, because, hey, they're just getting less of what they wanted, but still what they wanted. This one's harder because it also involves a society-level change.
Fourth, we need to fully and finally divorce education curriculum from politics. Even the idea that politicians can change the educational curriculum, or that uninformed voters can change the education curriculum, is bonkers. And it doesn't happen anywhere else. Nobody looks at a new bridge and says "Well back in my day we built bridges differently, and I personally have never been on one while it collapsed, so we really need these crazy engineers to stop with these new-fangled structures that I don't understand". I 100% trust that people who spend their lives learning about education know more about education than me.
Fifth, we need to enshrine that nobody can be too poor to live, no matter what. I don't care if they do drugs, I don't care if they have done crimes, they still get to live. There is no lifestyle that means it's ok for someone to starve to death or die of exposure on the street. If they're a threat to society then we deal with that part, but we still don't just say "Well fucking starve to death, that's what you get for being addicted to a highly addicted substance"
If we get those, then I'll start believing that there could be this mythical moral conservative that I keep hearing about.
We are paying attention to what you are saying. You keep trying to act like the other side can't be that bad because you just don't want to believe it.
I have no problem calling parties who are not even capable of this what they are. If you care about the opinion of fascists, you are one.
Well said.
Yeah, and it's my wife's fault she got hit, right?
Like Snopes is great, and some aspects of some media is nice like Colbert, Oliver, Stewart, Noah, Mercer, etc.
But we need to amplify them, without making them susceptible to right wing executive meddling ie: CBC
And yes, this means an escalation into a kind of propaganda battle, but it feels like we are already there but one side isn't really fighting back. Much like the Class Warfare battle.
MWO: Adamski
I may not agree everyone on the right is a nazi, but it seems to be a super unpopular position to take, but I don't know that agreeing with you means or achieves anything anyway. Lets say you're right, that conservatism is nazism. What now? I mean, if that's true, I think, as Shivahn put it, the coming storm is inevitable. If fully half the country is totally on board for fascism and genocide, then all hope is lost. We cannot possibly combat that.
Conservatives attract radical voters, radical voters get mad when the conservatives don't go far enough, and they keep putting even more radical conservatives in power until what were once dogwhistles is now open policy.
That happens independent of what anyone on left says, because they don't care what the left thinks.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
You're doing literally the same thing. I also did present arguments back.
There's literally no logical ground to stand on to say "These two things share the same 'values' wrt to one issue, therefore they are the same thing.".
It just doesn't make sense from a very basic standpoint. You're also ignoring the fact that political parties are made up of people and aren't actually living things on their own. Support of something doesn't mean someone buys into it 100%.
For example, there are people out there that vote conservative for purely economic reasons. That party still reflects their constituent'ss economic interest. These are people that vote strictly for economic reasons. It doesn't make sense for those people to turn on a dime and vote liberal - against their economic interests. That does not mean those people are nazis or nazi sympathizers.
Part of the problem is when we fight back we get told we're being mean and causing those poor innocent conservatives to become literal nazi's by calling out them openly associating with said group.
How do you fight back on something like that when a large portion of the "left" values civility over decency?
If a politician is engaging in photo-ops with the Sons/Soldiers of Odin they are not just anyone on the right, they are at best a Nazi sympathizer. They need to be expelled from their Party, even at the cost of a Seat.
That won't work. All of that is already branded to them as "fake news." Their epistemological bubble rejects it out of hand.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Whatever, there may be a few 'good ones', that can still be swayed by reason, but the descent is real and as you said it's happening worldwide and it can and in all possibility will happen in Canada as well.
I mean, I'm sorry that it may seem like it's coming to 'us vs them', but what else are you going to do with what's happening now, politically? Conservatism has been and is being corrupted, it's sliding and it's not getting brought back to what it was - if that was even ever anything good. It's a regressive ideology and always has been.
I know it's frightening to people to think that this is where we're at.
For real, you can't be driven to Nazihood by some pettiness over language and tone. If you are that sensitive to harshness in political discourse and you decide 'well, fuck it the nazis look nicer', then were you ever really liberal? If you're driven to that side over discourse, you're privileging yourself over the people who are and will suffer as this gains momentum.
It means that they are fine with nazi's if they support their economic interests, which means they are functionally nazi sympathizers. If Jagmeet Singh suddenly has Khmer Rouge members in photo ops I'm not going to let that slide because other things are in line with my interest.
Yeah the alt-right does have an economic agenda - their men should be in charge of the economy and the absolute winners of economic outcomes.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
It might not mean that they're nazis, but they certainly are benefiting from nazis gaining power, and they're also helping nazis gain power. So what does it actually matter that they did it because they wanted tax breaks?
Hell, take it a step further.
I'm about as left wing as you can get. I vote green. I march in parades. I protest. I'm engaged in extra-curricular groups that support multiculturalism, LGBTQ2 rights, etc. I believe strongly in making Canada a more diverse place. Myself and my friends have been threatened by right wing groups like the Northern Guard for our activism. Yet because I advocate for the legitimacy of the conservative party, I too am apparently a nazi.
Yes ... Casually circles back to how this all started with educating people. <_<
Perhaps I can interest you in my meager selection of pins?
You're right, schools really do need to focus more on teaching reading comprehension.
You have anything to contribute to the conversation or are you just here to be an asshole?
Both managed to pass the minimum threshold of refusing to accept the support of fascists, so I don't call them fascists.
I would appreciate it if Legault started to ask himself why fascists keep trying to support him, but that's something else.
The people saying we are being mean are the right wing or right leaning media sources. They are never going to approve or let something go if it helps the left.
The people who value civility above all else would admonish a victim to cry out more quietly so as not to make them uncomfortable.
Do not let them influence us into silencing ourselves.
MWO: Adamski
You're responding to the real life example of the US education system being politicized by partisan epistemological differences with your own personal perception of why people don't participate in politics like you want them to.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".