Kira is kind of a bad person but I kind of understand why?
Guess which ep I'm watching
I don’t think Kira’s a bad person so much as a good person who did bad things.
Comparing her to Dukat, the big difference is that Kira did horrible things because she believed, rightly or wrongly, that she had no choice. Dukat did horrible things because it benefitted him or, often, because he felt like it.
Though I don’t think you could get away with a character like Kira on network tv today.
Maybe premium? Breaking Bad (AMC) and the Sopranos (HBO) made worse characters beloved with audiences.
Kira is kind of a bad person but I kind of understand why?
Guess which ep I'm watching
I don’t think Kira’s a bad person so much as a good person who did bad things.
Comparing her to Dukat, the big difference is that Kira did horrible things because she believed, rightly or wrongly, that she had no choice. Dukat did horrible things because it benefitted him or, often, because he felt like it.
Though I don’t think you could get away with a character like Kira on network tv today.
I don't see why not. She's not particularly edgy or anything.
If the creativity and obvious genuine love for sci-fi that Rick and Morty displays are brought over to a Star Trek show, well, who knows - maybe we could end up with something good.
I mean, consider that the whole thing started out - pretty obviously, even with the thin coat of Legally Distinct paint they gave it - as a Back to the Future parody/pastiche.
I thought it was a missed opportunity with DISCO that the show had a bit of a 'lower decks' feel but then quickly abandoned it. After the pilot Michael is at the bottom of the Starfleet ladder - a prisoner who's given a temp job. She's not a bridge officer and most people on the ship resent her or mistrust her. I thought that was interesting and I was disappointed that she quickly became a bridge officer again and the initial mistrust of her mostly evaporated.
Kira is kind of a bad person but I kind of understand why?
Guess which ep I'm watching
I don’t think Kira’s a bad person so much as a good person who did bad things.
Comparing her to Dukat, the big difference is that Kira did horrible things because she believed, rightly or wrongly, that she had no choice. Dukat did horrible things because it benefitted him or, often, because he felt like it.
Though I don’t think you could get away with a character like Kira on network tv today.
I don't see why not. She's not particularly edgy or anything.
I mean
She’s a protagonist who unapologetically refers to what she did as terrorism multiple times throughout the course of the series.
Like, not freedom fighter, not resistance, not rebel. Terrorist.
I don’t think you’ll get that kind of portrayal on broadcast TV. Hell, I’m not sure you could even on premium or streaming “prestige” television.*
Kira once justified killing civilians, including children, as legitimate targets of war. She never changes her position on this, and the story continues to unreservedly portray her as a hero.
That’s not something you could really do now, at least without making the story about that.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Kira is kind of a bad person but I kind of understand why?
Guess which ep I'm watching
I don’t think Kira’s a bad person so much as a good person who did bad things.
Comparing her to Dukat, the big difference is that Kira did horrible things because she believed, rightly or wrongly, that she had no choice. Dukat did horrible things because it benefitted him or, often, because he felt like it.
Though I don’t think you could get away with a character like Kira on network tv today.
I don't see why not. She's not particularly edgy or anything.
I mean
She’s a protagonist who unapologetically refers to what she did as terrorism multiple times throughout the course of the series.
Like, not freedom fighter, not resistance, not rebel. Terrorist.
I don’t think you’ll get that kind of portrayal on broadcast TV. Hell, I’m not sure you could even on premium or streaming “prestige” television.*
*Looking at you, TV version of Altered Carbon.
Except the show made it pretty clear that she was fighting space Nazis at the time, so that kind of overruled any problems people might have had with the terrorist label.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The unique thing about Kira is she was self-aware enough about her actions to just own the terrorist title.
Notably, when Dukat goes rogue against the Klingons, he never refers to himself as a terrorist, even when he's claiming to be doing exactly what Kira did.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
I don't think Kira really cared about sugar coating what she did. She has every right to call herself a "freedom fighter" if she wanted to. At the same time she knew what she did and how dirty she got at times, and she has no interest in running away from it or trying to romanticize it.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
Yeah, Kira planted a bomb that killed not only a senior Cardassian commander, but several members of his family and staff(and scarred one of them).
That isn't the pure freedom/resistance fighter type behavior. She doesn't pretend it is either, she outright justifies it by saying that she didn't consider any Cardassian innocent and owns her actions.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Plus, you know, 99% of the time it's got nothing to do with anything she does on the show. It's not like she's going around committing acts of terrorism either. It's back story. The network execs would drop you a note that says "Just don't use the T-word" and that would be it.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Plus, you know, 99% of the time it's got nothing to do with anything she does on the show. It's not like she's going around committing acts of terrorism either. It's back story. The network execs would drop you a note that says "Just don't use the T-word" and that would be it.
or there would be some sort of dumb redemption arc or something, i could definitely see that happening
Kira is kind of a bad person but I kind of understand why?
Guess which ep I'm watching
I don’t think Kira’s a bad person so much as a good person who did bad things.
Comparing her to Dukat, the big difference is that Kira did horrible things because she believed, rightly or wrongly, that she had no choice. Dukat did horrible things because it benefitted him or, often, because he felt like it.
Though I don’t think you could get away with a character like Kira on network tv today.
Maybe premium? Breaking Bad (AMC) and the Sopranos (HBO) made worse characters beloved with audiences.
Battlestar Galactica (Space) had most of the main cast become terrorists for half a season while they were occupied by Cylons. The characters never referred to themselves as terrorists, but everyone IRL certainly did.
The New Capricans were terrorists.
Kira was a terrorist.
V on V for Vendetta was a terrorist.
Robin Hood was a terrorist.
Luke Skywalker? Totally a terrorist.
The New Capricans were terrorists.
Kira was a terrorist.
V on V for Vendetta was a terrorist.
Robin Hood was a terrorist.
Luke Skywalker? Totally a terrorist.
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Plus, you know, 99% of the time it's got nothing to do with anything she does on the show. It's not like she's going around committing acts of terrorism either. It's back story. The network execs would drop you a note that says "Just don't use the T-word" and that would be it.
or there would be some sort of dumb redemption arc or something, i could definitely see that happening
The New Capricans were terrorists.
Kira was a terrorist.
V on V for Vendetta was a terrorist.
Robin Hood was a terrorist.
Luke Skywalker? Totally a terrorist.
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Plus, you know, 99% of the time it's got nothing to do with anything she does on the show. It's not like she's going around committing acts of terrorism either. It's back story. The network execs would drop you a note that says "Just don't use the T-word" and that would be it.
or there would be some sort of dumb redemption arc or something, i could definitely see that happening
Duet sorta went that direction imo
But done with a nice touch
The ending of Duet is a little on the nose and a little pat, but it kinda fits with the tone of both Star Trek and that particular episode.
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Plus, you know, 99% of the time it's got nothing to do with anything she does on the show. It's not like she's going around committing acts of terrorism either. It's back story. The network execs would drop you a note that says "Just don't use the T-word" and that would be it.
or there would be some sort of dumb redemption arc or something, i could definitely see that happening
Duet sorta went that direction imo
But done with a nice touch
The ending of Duet is a little on the nose and a little pat, but it kinda fits with the tone of both Star Trek and that particular episode.
Which part?
You mean the part where he confesses or the part where he's killed? Or the stuff in between?
Cuz the confession was, for me, one of the most memorable scenes in all of DS9. And his murder... doesn't seem that pat to me? Ending with Kira asking why seemed pretty much as best as any other way to end the story neatly.
The stuff in between, where they make peace so easily, that part was a little too easy for me.
Also, how much should we be spoilering now, given that there's somewhat actively watching right now?
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Plus, you know, 99% of the time it's got nothing to do with anything she does on the show. It's not like she's going around committing acts of terrorism either. It's back story. The network execs would drop you a note that says "Just don't use the T-word" and that would be it.
or there would be some sort of dumb redemption arc or something, i could definitely see that happening
Duet sorta went that direction imo
But done with a nice touch
The ending of Duet is a little on the nose and a little pat, but it kinda fits with the tone of both Star Trek and that particular episode.
Which part?
You mean the part where he confesses or the part where he's killed? Or the stuff in between?
Cuz the confession was, for me, one of the most memorable scenes in all of DS9. And his murder... doesn't seem that pat to me? Ending with Kira asking why seemed pretty much as best as any other way to end the story neatly.
The stuff in between, where they make peace so easily, that part was a little too easy for me.
Also, how much should we be spoilering now, given that there's somewhat actively watching right now?
The way I see it, Kira was taken aback by Maritza feeling such guilt, despite just being a filing clerk, that he went through elaborate methods to essentially sacrifice himself so that Cardassia would have to answer for it's crimes.
It's both that there were, in fact, Cardassian's who genuinely hated what was going on with Bajor; and that one of them was willing to spend the rest of his life in jail, if not get executed, to atone for it, that I think got through to Kira.
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Plus, you know, 99% of the time it's got nothing to do with anything she does on the show. It's not like she's going around committing acts of terrorism either. It's back story. The network execs would drop you a note that says "Just don't use the T-word" and that would be it.
or there would be some sort of dumb redemption arc or something, i could definitely see that happening
Duet sorta went that direction imo
But done with a nice touch
The ending of Duet is a little on the nose and a little pat, but it kinda fits with the tone of both Star Trek and that particular episode.
Which part?
You mean the part where he confesses or the part where he's killed? Or the stuff in between?
Cuz the confession was, for me, one of the most memorable scenes in all of DS9. And his murder... doesn't seem that pat to me? Ending with Kira asking why seemed pretty much as best as any other way to end the story neatly.
The stuff in between, where they make peace so easily, that part was a little too easy for me.
Also, how much should we be spoilering now, given that there's somewhat actively watching right now?
The death. It's basically jammed in there before the credits and they blow through it as fast as possible. It's the right place to end the story but they do it extremely perfunctorily.
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Plus, you know, 99% of the time it's got nothing to do with anything she does on the show. It's not like she's going around committing acts of terrorism either. It's back story. The network execs would drop you a note that says "Just don't use the T-word" and that would be it.
or there would be some sort of dumb redemption arc or something, i could definitely see that happening
Duet sorta went that direction imo
But done with a nice touch
The ending of Duet is a little on the nose and a little pat, but it kinda fits with the tone of both Star Trek and that particular episode.
Which part?
You mean the part where he confesses or the part where he's killed? Or the stuff in between?
Cuz the confession was, for me, one of the most memorable scenes in all of DS9. And his murder... doesn't seem that pat to me? Ending with Kira asking why seemed pretty much as best as any other way to end the story neatly.
The stuff in between, where they make peace so easily, that part was a little too easy for me.
Also, how much should we be spoilering now, given that there's somewhat actively watching right now?
You don't need to spoil anything for my sake from any Star Trek series, and especially not anything from two decades ago
Spoilers are expected in the thread for Discovery still since it's the newest
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Plus, you know, 99% of the time it's got nothing to do with anything she does on the show. It's not like she's going around committing acts of terrorism either. It's back story. The network execs would drop you a note that says "Just don't use the T-word" and that would be it.
or there would be some sort of dumb redemption arc or something, i could definitely see that happening
Duet sorta went that direction imo
But done with a nice touch
The ending of Duet is a little on the nose and a little pat, but it kinda fits with the tone of both Star Trek and that particular episode.
Which part?
You mean the part where he confesses or the part where he's killed? Or the stuff in between?
Cuz the confession was, for me, one of the most memorable scenes in all of DS9. And his murder... doesn't seem that pat to me? Ending with Kira asking why seemed pretty much as best as any other way to end the story neatly.
The stuff in between, where they make peace so easily, that part was a little too easy for me.
Also, how much should we be spoilering now, given that there's somewhat actively watching right now?
The death. It's basically jammed in there before the credits and they blow through it as fast as possible. It's the right place to end the story but they do it extremely perfunctorily.
Having just watched it, it didn't feel perfunctory at all
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Wasn’t loaded for you guys.
Watching DS9 in the 90s in Ireland was quite an experience.
+6
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SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Wasn’t loaded for you guys.
Watching DS9 in the 90s in Ireland was quite an experience.
Same over on the GB mainland. Shit there was an episode of TNG that straight up wasn't aired in I think 91 because the thrust of it was "Hey maybe terrorism is acceptable sometimes?"
I feel like the trajectory of the world is like if DS9 had gone the other way in all its pivotal plot moments.
Bajor embraces its religious fundamentalism and breaks with the Federation and its ideals.
Sisko fails to prevent Admiral Leyton from imposing marshal law.
The sanctuary districts never got fixed.
etc.
We could see all the tipping points for the world in the 90s, but assumed that they would tip in the right directions instead of the wrong ones.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
it is worth noting the word terrrorist wasn’t loaded in the mid90s like it is today
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
Wasn’t loaded for you guys.
Watching DS9 in the 90s in Ireland was quite an experience.
Same over on the GB mainland. Shit there was an episode of TNG that straight up wasn't aired in I think 91 because the thrust of it was "Hey maybe terrorism is acceptable sometimes?"
The High Ground wasn't aired on the BBC until 2007 because Data says Ireland was unified in 2024. The good news is we're back on track to that maybe actually happening! Thanks, David Cameron.
I feel like the trajectory of the world is like if DS9 had gone the other way in all its pivotal plot moments.
Bajor embraces its religious fundamentalism and breaks with the Federation and its ideals.
Sisko fails to prevent Admiral Leyton from imposing marshal law.
The sanctuary districts never got fixed.
etc.
We could see all the tipping points for the world in the 90s, but assumed that they would tip in the right directions instead of the wrong ones.
We are living in the Mirror Universe? That is a logical conclusion.
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
I feel like the trajectory of the world is like if DS9 had gone the other way in all its pivotal plot moments.
Bajor embraces its religious fundamentalism and breaks with the Federation and its ideals.
Sisko fails to prevent Admiral Leyton from imposing marshal law.
The sanctuary districts never got fixed.
etc.
We could see all the tipping points for the world in the 90s, but assumed that they would tip in the right directions instead of the wrong ones.
We are living in the Mirror Universe? That is a logical conclusion.
I feel like the trajectory of the world is like if DS9 had gone the other way in all its pivotal plot moments.
Bajor embraces its religious fundamentalism and breaks with the Federation and its ideals.
Sisko fails to prevent Admiral Leyton from imposing marshal law.
The sanctuary districts never got fixed.
etc.
We could see all the tipping points for the world in the 90s, but assumed that they would tip in the right directions instead of the wrong ones.
We are living in the Mirror Universe? That is a logical conclusion.
I've been thinking a lot lately that the worst thing about not being born in the Star Trek future is knowing that it took massive inequality, rampant oppression, and World War 3 to get there. I did not consent to living in the shitty Star Trek past damnit.
hey, at least we'll get that sweet sweet post nuclear nose candy
Isn't humanity pretty much on the edge of extinction when Cochrane invents the warp drive?
They try to give that perception for sure in First Contact. The numbers they gave in the movie would represent only 5-10% of the population being killed in a nuclear war though. 600 million dead, with the 2018 population being 7.5 billion, and undoubtedly much high by 2063.
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Maybe premium? Breaking Bad (AMC) and the Sopranos (HBO) made worse characters beloved with audiences.
I don't see why not. She's not particularly edgy or anything.
Good stuff
the ending tho
also in the future I would get so much face surgery
I mean, consider that the whole thing started out - pretty obviously, even with the thin coat of Legally Distinct paint they gave it - as a Back to the Future parody/pastiche.
I mean
She’s a protagonist who unapologetically refers to what she did as terrorism multiple times throughout the course of the series.
Like, not freedom fighter, not resistance, not rebel. Terrorist.
I don’t think you’ll get that kind of portrayal on broadcast TV. Hell, I’m not sure you could even on premium or streaming “prestige” television.*
*Looking at you, TV version of Altered Carbon.
That’s not something you could really do now, at least without making the story about that.
Except the show made it pretty clear that she was fighting space Nazis at the time, so that kind of overruled any problems people might have had with the terrorist label.
Notably, when Dukat goes rogue against the Klingons, he never refers to himself as a terrorist, even when he's claiming to be doing exactly what Kira did.
you could absolutely have a character like Kira today but she might not refer to herself with that word just because of today’s politics but at that point it’s just semantics
That isn't the pure freedom/resistance fighter type behavior. She doesn't pretend it is either, she outright justifies it by saying that she didn't consider any Cardassian innocent and owns her actions.
Plus, you know, 99% of the time it's got nothing to do with anything she does on the show. It's not like she's going around committing acts of terrorism either. It's back story. The network execs would drop you a note that says "Just don't use the T-word" and that would be it.
or there would be some sort of dumb redemption arc or something, i could definitely see that happening
Battlestar Galactica (Space) had most of the main cast become terrorists for half a season while they were occupied by Cylons. The characters never referred to themselves as terrorists, but everyone IRL certainly did.
Kira was a terrorist.
V on V for Vendetta was a terrorist.
Robin Hood was a terrorist.
Luke Skywalker? Totally a terrorist.
Everybody's a terrorist eventually.
Duet sorta went that direction imo
But done with a nice touch
Those idiots are after Bigger Luke.
Steam ID: Obos Vent: Obos
Trek is that Good Shit.
The ending of Duet is a little on the nose and a little pat, but it kinda fits with the tone of both Star Trek and that particular episode.
Which part?
Cuz the confession was, for me, one of the most memorable scenes in all of DS9. And his murder... doesn't seem that pat to me? Ending with Kira asking why seemed pretty much as best as any other way to end the story neatly.
The stuff in between, where they make peace so easily, that part was a little too easy for me.
Also, how much should we be spoilering now, given that there's somewhat actively watching right now?
It's both that there were, in fact, Cardassian's who genuinely hated what was going on with Bajor; and that one of them was willing to spend the rest of his life in jail, if not get executed, to atone for it, that I think got through to Kira.
You don't need to spoil anything for my sake from any Star Trek series, and especially not anything from two decades ago
Spoilers are expected in the thread for Discovery still since it's the newest
Having just watched it, it didn't feel perfunctory at all
Too many feels
Wait until the siege of AR15
You wont believe how dark shit can get in 90s trek.
It's a great episode too but it's like going on after Queen at Live Aid.
Wasn’t loaded for you guys.
Watching DS9 in the 90s in Ireland was quite an experience.
Same over on the GB mainland. Shit there was an episode of TNG that straight up wasn't aired in I think 91 because the thrust of it was "Hey maybe terrorism is acceptable sometimes?"
D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
Bajor embraces its religious fundamentalism and breaks with the Federation and its ideals.
Sisko fails to prevent Admiral Leyton from imposing marshal law.
The sanctuary districts never got fixed.
etc.
We could see all the tipping points for the world in the 90s, but assumed that they would tip in the right directions instead of the wrong ones.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
We are living in the Mirror Universe? That is a logical conclusion.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
no, i'd say we're right on track for the prime timeline
I've been thinking a lot lately that the worst thing about not being born in the Star Trek future is knowing that it took massive inequality, rampant oppression, and World War 3 to get there. I did not consent to living in the shitty Star Trek past damnit.
Isn't humanity pretty much on the edge of extinction when Cochrane invents the warp drive?
They try to give that perception for sure in First Contact. The numbers they gave in the movie would represent only 5-10% of the population being killed in a nuclear war though. 600 million dead, with the 2018 population being 7.5 billion, and undoubtedly much high by 2063.
I never finish anyth