I'm leveling a mistdancer monk, and like most healing classes the dps rotation is not complex or all that fast. that said, there's a noticeable decrease in kill time moving into legion content. I'm at 98 again, but the transition just feels ... off. None of the major content transitions feel quite smooth in terms of difficulty. That said, as a healer I'm glad to be killing things relatively quickly.
Also, I'm glad they're looking at the leveling curve, because it feels ever more tedious at times. And dungeons don't really feel rewarding enough anymore to bother at 60+ levels. And the 20 minute wait time as healer suggests not too many people are running them anyway.
I don't understand why they still lock some dungeons to the max level for that respective expansion. Basically means nobody does them.
Because people like goals to work towards, and unlocking a max-level only dungeon is a fun goal to work towards?
It also means Blizzard can balance the dungeon knowing that all participants are 120, and balance it against a specific minimum gear requirement, rather than trying to balance it against a scaling, moving target.
He means now. Nobody sits at 70 so they can do Botanica.
It used to have to do with flying, you couldn't get to the entrance without flight and a lot of people, outside of druids, didn't have access to the dungeon if they died or whatever. That's less of an issue now, so I dunno why they still do it.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I'm leveling a mistdancer monk, and like most healing classes the dps rotation is not complex or all that fast. that said, there's a noticeable decrease in kill time moving into legion content. I'm at 98 again, but the transition just feels ... off. None of the major content transitions feel quite smooth in terms of difficulty. That said, as a healer I'm glad to be killing things relatively quickly.
Also, I'm glad they're looking at the leveling curve, because it feels ever more tedious at times. And dungeons don't really feel rewarding enough anymore to bother at 60+ levels. And the 20 minute wait time as healer suggests not too many people are running them anyway.
I don't understand why they still lock some dungeons to the max level for that respective expansion. Basically means nobody does them.
The real crime this expansion is locking away half the leveling dungeons based on your faction. Why yes, I love doing the same three (four at 115) dungeons over and over again, that's so much more fun than having six/seven dungeons to do.
Faction conflict central to WoW! So much win! Players love it!
I basically think they should steal roulettes from FF14. Leveling roulette, big once daily xp bonus, all dungeons at or beneath your level up for grabs, bonus varies to offset loss of dungeon mob xp for lower levels.
People get bored leveling in ff14 too, but they at least try to keep it fresh. they have whole alternative leveling content just to mix things up (Palace of the Dead for instance). I think WoW could REALLY use some fresh leveling side-content. I mean, it would be grindy, but what if island expeditions were semi-decent xp for leveling alts? I don't think that would be terrible. You could always go back to questing or dungeons if you get bored.
They're significantly cutting xp requirements down, for what its worth.
Ooh, I didn't know they had decided to make this change already. Any word on which patch this comes through?
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Ah, my brother's birthday, easy to remember. I may go easy on the alts until then, except for the ones that are already ready for legion content. Once I hit legion stuff I"m happy at this point.
I'm leveling a mistdancer monk, and like most healing classes the dps rotation is not complex or all that fast. that said, there's a noticeable decrease in kill time moving into legion content. I'm at 98 again, but the transition just feels ... off. None of the major content transitions feel quite smooth in terms of difficulty. That said, as a healer I'm glad to be killing things relatively quickly.
Also, I'm glad they're looking at the leveling curve, because it feels ever more tedious at times. And dungeons don't really feel rewarding enough anymore to bother at 60+ levels. And the 20 minute wait time as healer suggests not too many people are running them anyway.
I don't understand why they still lock some dungeons to the max level for that respective expansion. Basically means nobody does them.
Because people like goals to work towards, and unlocking a max-level only dungeon is a fun goal to work towards?
It also means Blizzard can balance the dungeon knowing that all participants are 120, and balance it against a specific minimum gear requirement, rather than trying to balance it against a scaling, moving target.
I was talking about pre-BFA/final expansion dungeons. They "fixed" this for some of the older expansions, but the newest expansions have a buncha dungeon queues locked to the highest possible level for that expansion - which means that by the time they're eligible for those dungeons, people leveling now have already moved onto the next expansion. Like WoD has some level 100-only dungeons (Grimrail, Shadowmoon, Everbloom, URBS) as does Legion (BRH, Maw, Vault, Court of Stars, Return to Karazhan, Cathedral, Arcway, Seat) and the MoP heroic only dungeons. Which basically means these dungeons are never run, because who's queuing for a random Legion dungeon at level 110... unless they're intentionally trying to see those dungeons, I guess.
Well, finally got the last mount in Argus to drop on one of my characters. I think at this point, assuming I didn't miss one, I only need to farm wardens, armies of light and valajar for paragon stuff. After that, I want to say everything else that I might want in the way of vanity stuff, is either tied to achievements, professions, raids or pet stuff.
Glad to hear the they are at least nerfing exp requirements because IMO it takes to long to level alts and since everything balance around end game, it's not exactly fund to level an alt though certain pieces of content. Granted BC timewalking seems to be a shit show still in Arc.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Turns out female night elf DKs get a hair colour option that is not available to night elves of any other class. Not really significant but is weirdly specific.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
I think all DK races have two or three hair colors not available to standard classes.
That is some gooood stuff. -40%? -25%? Yes. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeees.
They're talking about health increases on mobs with the leveling issues, but, I don't really have a hard time killing things. It's the "scaling" component they put in for quest XP since you don't out-level zones anymore. Quests just give like 1/4-1/8th of the experience I'd expect them to give.
I turned in something like 20 quests in terrokar and got 1/2 a level out of it. That's vanilla level style leveling. It got to the point where I had to leave a zone because there were no more quests and I had only gained about 2 levels. That's fine, I guess, that's how it was back in BC, but I remember they purposefully increased the XP it gave because they didn't want 1-110 to take fucking weeks and weeks of time until you could get to the end game.
This is what I'm talking about with punishing alts, wrath gave you tons of ways to power level alts and they all just kind of went away.
I can't imagine doing this slough without fucking heirlooms jfc.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
They're super punishing to alts at the high level too.
Way too much progression is tied to rep and AP. Rep is the worst. Having levels of the Azerite necklace gated behind Champions rep is super hostile towards alts.
They're super punishing to alts at the high level too.
Way too much progression is tied to rep and AP. Rep is the worst. Having levels of the Azerite necklace gated behind Champions rep is super hostile towards alts.
Wasn't that supposed to be fixed so that the neck ilvl was tied to account Champions rep or something? I remember them putting some fix in for that. The AP grind still sucks though
They're super punishing to alts at the high level too.
Way too much progression is tied to rep and AP. Rep is the worst. Having levels of the Azerite necklace gated behind Champions rep is super hostile towards alts.
Wasn't that supposed to be fixed so that the neck ilvl was tied to account Champions rep or something? I remember them putting some fix in for that. The AP grind still sucks though
I just leveled an alt to 120 over this week. He did not benefit any at all from my main's CoA rep, so maybe that change hasn't gone in yet. Maybe it's part of 8.1?
They're super punishing to alts at the high level too.
Way too much progression is tied to rep and AP. Rep is the worst. Having levels of the Azerite necklace gated behind Champions rep is super hostile towards alts.
I just don't get it.
Alts are an arguably huge part of this game but it's like they want to go "yeah fuck off people who aren't always playing their mains".
These "have to sign on every day to make sure you keep up with the jonses" type things just end up punishing people more than helping. We really need to drop these legendary items you have to also level after you get max level. The never ending treadmill just means there's no way to accomplish goals because the carrot on the stick is still there.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
If I was still raiding I know me not signing on every day to level my fucking azerite necklace would be a huge point of contention with other raid members.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
If I was still raiding I know me not signing on every day to level my fucking azerite necklace would be a huge point of contention with other raid members.
It has become a point of contention between me and my guild leader. My necklace is only level 24 because I maxed all my reps and I just dont' feel like doing WQs every day. Heck, I'm a pretty casual WoW player overall. I play typically only twice a week. I log in for raids on Monday night and Wednesday night. Unless I'm playing an alt, I won't be playing WoW outside of those times.
But because Azerite traits are a moving target and also a super annoying grind, I cannot unlock all of my traits on my heroic gear. My guild leader keeps telling me to play more and do any Azerite WQs and I keep telling him no. Because I don't want to play WoW that much. And until this expansion I didn't have to.
My guild has a main read that pushes mythics (m ghuun on farm for a couple of weeks now) and everyone else (people retired from main raid, friends, family). Some of the "everyone else" form other raids, there are a bunch of us. The one I'm in has m mother on semi-farm and it's actually the most mythic bosses on a tier it's done since Hellfire Citadel.
Main raid has certain minimum expectation for things like neck level, iirc this week it's 29. If you can't keep up there are others that can. Everyone else there is 0 expectations for anything.
The difference between the necklace and last expansion's artifact weapon is twofold.
First, in BfA we are constantly having to re-unlock traits we have already unlocked as we get higher item level gear. A normal item from Uldir might require X, Y and Z for it's trait unlocks, but that same item in heroic is X+3, Y+3, and Z+3, which is stupid.
Second, in Legion, once you unlocked a golden trait on your weapon, it was yours to keep forever. Everything was yours to keep forever. There was no negative progress. Now, in BfA, moving from Normal to Heroic to Mythic is like hard resetting your necklace each time.
If I was still raiding I know me not signing on every day to level my fucking azerite necklace would be a huge point of contention with other raid members.
Not necessarily, most guilds just bench people that don't keep up.
EDIT: Wording.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
If I was still raiding I know me not signing on every day to level my fucking azerite necklace would be a huge point of contention with other raid members.
Not necessarily. I'm perfectly aware of how it sounds, but: The bench is right there.
If you're raiding and getting benched because of AP necklace, that sounds exactly like a huge point of contention.
They're super punishing to alts at the high level too.
Way too much progression is tied to rep and AP. Rep is the worst. Having levels of the Azerite necklace gated behind Champions rep is super hostile towards alts.
That at least goes away in 8.1 where once you do that on one character it is account bounds so your other characters can just go talk to magni for the ilevels.
A guild would have to run a really broad roster to make benching someone over a few ilvls on a neck a net gain.
If you have 25 people ready to go with necks sitting between 30 and 35 and then two guys at 24, guess who doesn't get brought to mythic progression.
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Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
Neck ilvl should really not be the limiting factor for any guild to progress through 8/8 Heroic Uldir. For guilds trying to progress in Mythic, maybe that's more important, but in general Uldir seems to have execution checks rather than gear checkpoints. Revered CoA is pretty easy to obtain and holds most of that ilvl anyway.
hope one of those 25 people have an alt tank that has a level 30 necklace I guess?
The tanks are well into the 30s. The point is not neck level in isolation. It's using best gems and enchants. It's buying BoEs early in the expansion when they are stupid expensive to fill missing holes so you can now through normal/heroic to where real progression is. It's popping 2 pots per fight. It's remembering the health stone. It's executing mechanics while doing great heals and damage. It's putting in 100%.
As i said, it's only relevant for the main raid. I retired from that world years ago because i didn't have that commitment in me any more and that is ok too. I raid with the other "retired" and we go one night a week for 3 hours. One of the things i noticed it that comparatively to guilds i had been in before (which were a lot more casual for their main raid), my casual group still keeps a lot of the practices of the main raid when it comes to some issues. Specifically, when it's ready time it's easier time. We start at a specific hard time, end at a specific hard time, everyone runs back on a wipe unless we can mass res, people don't generally go afk during trash, and people use at least 1 pot per pull, and lead drops feasts and cauldrons. We all got other things to do in our lives and don't have time to waste on the 2 people that keep going afk all the time like i used to deal with before.
Not ever guild churns through mythic even on their main raids though.
What I'm saying is even doing normal raids the min-maxers would bellyache, much like this thread, about the concept of someone not putting the same effort they are when it's unnecessary. Further highlighting what makes Wrath stand out from the current iterations of WoW and why it worked so well in keeping players interested in playing, and possibly giving a little extra on their mains when it wasn't seen as a fucking burden.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
im not sure Wrath is the shining example of keeping players interested. It was the first time I took a break from the game as well as like 20 other people I knew just IRL, because we were bored out of our minds. While Wrath did have the highest concurrent subs, I think it was because it was the first expansion that actually followed up on wc3, and attracted a lot of new players. Wrath just attracted different people who wanted to continue that story, and as soon as the game wasnt about arthas anymore the sub numbers definitely show that it isn't want the players wanted because it has been just downhill ever since that. It is weird that bfa also has the highest preorders ever, so i think a lot of people are really interested in some kind of horde vs alliance fight more akin to vanilla. Most of the complaints people have about the expansion are just weird ass design decisions like the neck level time gating and being alt crushing, and dungeons being overly punishing compared to legion for no reason, and also a few broke specs/classes.
I think that some reasonable expectations can exists for pretty much any guild of any size and seriousness when you are talking about raiding (normal difficulty).
For example, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect anybody at all, no matter how seriously committed they are to have gems and enchants on all applicable pieces of gear. Getting gems and enchants is trivial. Many times guildies will offer those things for free or at a discounted rate. Worst case scenario, a person can buy those things on the AH, and even on release week, the prices are never bank breaking for those things. I would consider gems and enchants to be "standard equipment."
Consumables get a bit more grey. Normal difficulty is easy enough that guilds shouldn't really require their players to flask. You don't need it. Heroic is another story. For pushing new content and progression, you probably need it. Mythic for sure. So consumables is a bit more of a scale depending on difficulty of content.
On the subject of difficulty, Normal is also easy enough that guilds don't really have any need to run parses or analyze logs. The only reason a guild at normal difficulty would need to do this is if they wanted to see if somebody was dragging ass and not contributing. But Normal is entry level for organized groups. Yes, LFR exists and is super ez-mode, but LFR is basically sight-seer mode, and the mode for people who just want to see the content and don't care about accomplishment.
Mythic is not "entry level." It is not pedestrian, it is not casual, and I think Mythic guilds can reasonably expect things of their raiders that Normal/Heroic guilds cannot. Mythic takes difficulty and time commitment to a different level. And thus people who raid at the Mythic difficulty need to be more invested. This isn't unreasonable for Mythic guilds to require a lot more investment as far as consumables, vantus runes, augment stones, and even min/maxing classes for best results and following the flavor of the month class trends. When you're pushing the hardest content, you do the things you need to do to win. And that means a greater investment from players individually.
The main raid compulsively self-analyses and each other the logs. The retired raid doesn't even log.
There are times when, as the de-facto didn't-actually-ask-for-the-job raid leader, I take a more macro-scope perspective of the logs to determine errors in execution, but other than that, I wish people wouldn't deconstruct others performance so much, unless they ask for it.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I’m sympathetic to the desire not to grind AP but to get to 26-27 at this point is really easy. On my hunter I don’t do anything but a couple keys a week, a couple islands here and there and emissaries when I want the reward and I’m already 27. Farming 30+ at this point is a bit excessive but the catchup scaling makes it really easy to stay more or less abreast of your gear. Grinding AP in legion was much tougher
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Yeah but, it is tougher to grind for temporary power than permanent power, overall.
Like 2 weeks of hard grinding feels fine if you earn something legit and until the end of the expansion. Grinding for 2 weeks to get something that you will have to grind for 2 more weeks down the road to get again feels like a complete waste.
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He means now. Nobody sits at 70 so they can do Botanica.
Faction conflict central to WoW! So much win! Players love it!
Ooh, I didn't know they had decided to make this change already. Any word on which patch this comes through?
https://www.wowhead.com/news=288495/experience-required-to-level-reduced-in-8-1-ptr-build-28366
That is some gooood stuff. -40%? -25%? Yes. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeees.
I was talking about pre-BFA/final expansion dungeons. They "fixed" this for some of the older expansions, but the newest expansions have a buncha dungeon queues locked to the highest possible level for that expansion - which means that by the time they're eligible for those dungeons, people leveling now have already moved onto the next expansion. Like WoD has some level 100-only dungeons (Grimrail, Shadowmoon, Everbloom, URBS) as does Legion (BRH, Maw, Vault, Court of Stars, Return to Karazhan, Cathedral, Arcway, Seat) and the MoP heroic only dungeons. Which basically means these dungeons are never run, because who's queuing for a random Legion dungeon at level 110... unless they're intentionally trying to see those dungeons, I guess.
Actually, I think Botanica is "fixed" now - according to Wowhead (https://www.wowhead.com/dungeon-item-level-requirements-guide#dungeons-tbc-normal), it's available from 67-80.
Steam: YOU FACE JARAXXUS| Twitch.tv: CainLoveless
Glad to hear the they are at least nerfing exp requirements because IMO it takes to long to level alts and since everything balance around end game, it's not exactly fund to level an alt though certain pieces of content. Granted BC timewalking seems to be a shit show still in Arc.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
They're talking about health increases on mobs with the leveling issues, but, I don't really have a hard time killing things. It's the "scaling" component they put in for quest XP since you don't out-level zones anymore. Quests just give like 1/4-1/8th of the experience I'd expect them to give.
I turned in something like 20 quests in terrokar and got 1/2 a level out of it. That's vanilla level style leveling. It got to the point where I had to leave a zone because there were no more quests and I had only gained about 2 levels. That's fine, I guess, that's how it was back in BC, but I remember they purposefully increased the XP it gave because they didn't want 1-110 to take fucking weeks and weeks of time until you could get to the end game.
This is what I'm talking about with punishing alts, wrath gave you tons of ways to power level alts and they all just kind of went away.
I can't imagine doing this slough without fucking heirlooms jfc.
Way too much progression is tied to rep and AP. Rep is the worst. Having levels of the Azerite necklace gated behind Champions rep is super hostile towards alts.
Wasn't that supposed to be fixed so that the neck ilvl was tied to account Champions rep or something? I remember them putting some fix in for that. The AP grind still sucks though
I just leveled an alt to 120 over this week. He did not benefit any at all from my main's CoA rep, so maybe that change hasn't gone in yet. Maybe it's part of 8.1?
I just don't get it.
Alts are an arguably huge part of this game but it's like they want to go "yeah fuck off people who aren't always playing their mains".
These "have to sign on every day to make sure you keep up with the jonses" type things just end up punishing people more than helping. We really need to drop these legendary items you have to also level after you get max level. The never ending treadmill just means there's no way to accomplish goals because the carrot on the stick is still there.
It has become a point of contention between me and my guild leader. My necklace is only level 24 because I maxed all my reps and I just dont' feel like doing WQs every day. Heck, I'm a pretty casual WoW player overall. I play typically only twice a week. I log in for raids on Monday night and Wednesday night. Unless I'm playing an alt, I won't be playing WoW outside of those times.
But because Azerite traits are a moving target and also a super annoying grind, I cannot unlock all of my traits on my heroic gear. My guild leader keeps telling me to play more and do any Azerite WQs and I keep telling him no. Because I don't want to play WoW that much. And until this expansion I didn't have to.
Main raid has certain minimum expectation for things like neck level, iirc this week it's 29. If you can't keep up there are others that can. Everyone else there is 0 expectations for anything.
First, in BfA we are constantly having to re-unlock traits we have already unlocked as we get higher item level gear. A normal item from Uldir might require X, Y and Z for it's trait unlocks, but that same item in heroic is X+3, Y+3, and Z+3, which is stupid.
Second, in Legion, once you unlocked a golden trait on your weapon, it was yours to keep forever. Everything was yours to keep forever. There was no negative progress. Now, in BfA, moving from Normal to Heroic to Mythic is like hard resetting your necklace each time.
EDIT: Wording.
If you're raiding and getting benched because of AP necklace, that sounds exactly like a huge point of contention.
That at least goes away in 8.1 where once you do that on one character it is account bounds so your other characters can just go talk to magni for the ilevels.
If you have 25 people ready to go with necks sitting between 30 and 35 and then two guys at 24, guess who doesn't get brought to mythic progression.
The tanks are well into the 30s. The point is not neck level in isolation. It's using best gems and enchants. It's buying BoEs early in the expansion when they are stupid expensive to fill missing holes so you can now through normal/heroic to where real progression is. It's popping 2 pots per fight. It's remembering the health stone. It's executing mechanics while doing great heals and damage. It's putting in 100%.
As i said, it's only relevant for the main raid. I retired from that world years ago because i didn't have that commitment in me any more and that is ok too. I raid with the other "retired" and we go one night a week for 3 hours. One of the things i noticed it that comparatively to guilds i had been in before (which were a lot more casual for their main raid), my casual group still keeps a lot of the practices of the main raid when it comes to some issues. Specifically, when it's ready time it's easier time. We start at a specific hard time, end at a specific hard time, everyone runs back on a wipe unless we can mass res, people don't generally go afk during trash, and people use at least 1 pot per pull, and lead drops feasts and cauldrons. We all got other things to do in our lives and don't have time to waste on the 2 people that keep going afk all the time like i used to deal with before.
What I'm saying is even doing normal raids the min-maxers would bellyache, much like this thread, about the concept of someone not putting the same effort they are when it's unnecessary. Further highlighting what makes Wrath stand out from the current iterations of WoW and why it worked so well in keeping players interested in playing, and possibly giving a little extra on their mains when it wasn't seen as a fucking burden.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
For example, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect anybody at all, no matter how seriously committed they are to have gems and enchants on all applicable pieces of gear. Getting gems and enchants is trivial. Many times guildies will offer those things for free or at a discounted rate. Worst case scenario, a person can buy those things on the AH, and even on release week, the prices are never bank breaking for those things. I would consider gems and enchants to be "standard equipment."
Consumables get a bit more grey. Normal difficulty is easy enough that guilds shouldn't really require their players to flask. You don't need it. Heroic is another story. For pushing new content and progression, you probably need it. Mythic for sure. So consumables is a bit more of a scale depending on difficulty of content.
On the subject of difficulty, Normal is also easy enough that guilds don't really have any need to run parses or analyze logs. The only reason a guild at normal difficulty would need to do this is if they wanted to see if somebody was dragging ass and not contributing. But Normal is entry level for organized groups. Yes, LFR exists and is super ez-mode, but LFR is basically sight-seer mode, and the mode for people who just want to see the content and don't care about accomplishment.
Mythic is not "entry level." It is not pedestrian, it is not casual, and I think Mythic guilds can reasonably expect things of their raiders that Normal/Heroic guilds cannot. Mythic takes difficulty and time commitment to a different level. And thus people who raid at the Mythic difficulty need to be more invested. This isn't unreasonable for Mythic guilds to require a lot more investment as far as consumables, vantus runes, augment stones, and even min/maxing classes for best results and following the flavor of the month class trends. When you're pushing the hardest content, you do the things you need to do to win. And that means a greater investment from players individually.
There are times when, as the de-facto didn't-actually-ask-for-the-job raid leader, I take a more macro-scope perspective of the logs to determine errors in execution, but other than that, I wish people wouldn't deconstruct others performance so much, unless they ask for it.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Like 2 weeks of hard grinding feels fine if you earn something legit and until the end of the expansion. Grinding for 2 weeks to get something that you will have to grind for 2 more weeks down the road to get again feels like a complete waste.