I will say that an emerging talking point on the right re: "The Democrats are obsessed with the wall!" is, perhaps, the most intensely gaslit I've ever felt.
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I ZimbraWorst song, played on ugliest guitarRegistered Userregular
Federal law enforcement agencies like the Bureau of Prisons, the Transportation Security Administration and U.S. Customs and Border Protection have long struggled with integrity issues, from smuggling contraband into prisons and stealing from luggage to taking bribes at the border. Forcing employees of these law enforcement agencies ― which have also struggled with morale issues ― to work without pay could exacerbate corruption problems, some experts told HuffPost. When unpaid law enforcement employees get desperate, some could become compromised.
“As this thing goes on, and as people’s financial situations become more dire, it always increases the risk for corruption,” says John Roth, the former inspector general for the Department of Homeland Security, which includes TSA and CBP. “It’s ironic that you’re increasing the risk of corruption at the same time as you’re attempting to fortify the border.”
I also wouldn't love to be a person with a security clearance running into clearance-threatening financial difficulties due to the shutdown.
The Daily Show dug up video of Trump giving a commencement speech in 2004, encouraging graduates;
“Don’t give up. Don’t allow it to happen. If there’s a concrete wall in front of you, go through it, go over it, go around it, but get to the other side of that wall.”
Well, yeah, but what if it’s a steel wall?
Doctor Detroit on
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
No shutdown will ever operate like the last one until it actually does. There are no guarantees here.
Yes. There are. The one guarantee is that essential workers who show up will be paid when the shutdown ends. It's a 100% legal obligation under current law.
That guarantee is functionally meaningless. Folks in this situation in 2013 did get paid eventually (partially in 2014 and fully during a 2017 legal case), but saying that getting paid money you need for your mortgage in a trickle effect one or four years down the line is literally the same thing as not getting paid when you need to meet your mortgage today.
As a state government employee, who works with many federal employee folks, both myself and my friend group have been on various sides of state and federal shutdowns and furloughs. None of them are set in stone and even if they choose to honor payment for the employees working now, there are a great many ways that directors and section leads can fudge the numbers or withhold partial amounts of payment within the law to maintain unit solvency (and the government doesn't always just flood those units with the money from the shutdown, often they don't receive it immediately but in irregular chunks over the duration of the year).
And for the lions share of folks on furlough, who are not deemed essential, they are very likely to not get paid and cannot count of congress and the president being magnanimous (even if historical precedent says they will be). It only takes once for that not to happen.
So, yes. No shutdown is the same as the last one until it is. And so far, it isn't and won't be until its over and it happens.
To be clear, on the bolded, they were paid their full hourly/salary rate immediately after the shutdown, and the “completely” part you refer to was damages in addition to that, right?
Is the case you’re referring to the one I linked a story on last page? Because if so, that seems to be what happened.
This case is about damages for the delay, not the direct pay owed.
It's an incomplete version. Most employees were paid on the next paycheck, but a substantial amount were not. The final payments for the missed time reached the entirety of employees affected by summer of the following year (with the shutdown occurring in October), so just shy of a full year. Some contractors and employees were only partially repaid, and while the settlement in 2017 paid the majority of those affected a settlement, it also was used and considered compensation for funding that had been withheld to a number of employees, meaning that even with the settlement they never received their full benefits and pay due to this day.
I find it odd that not one of the ten or so articles I just read on the case mention this, nor does the 2017 ruling (which I just read through). I suppose I may be missing something. Do you have any source for this? I’m relying on the briefings I’ve received, the OPM guidance available from their site, and every other source I’ve read that implies excepted workers were paid in a timely fashion once the shutdown ended.
However, I’ll admit this wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been wrong. It happens.
Edit: also note that I’m talking solely about federal employees; contractors are another matter.
I'm talking about both, from direct reported experiences from both friends and family members. This isn't an academic discussion.
More than 25,000 individuals have been waiting for more than five years for monetary damages a court said they deserve because the federal government violated the law when it forced them to work without immediate pay during the 2013 shutdown. The government and plaintiffs were finally getting close to resolving and disbursing the payments, but now the former and current federal employees will have to wait a little longer.
Why? The Justice Department attorneys and many of the other employees working on processing the payments are now furloughed, sent home without pay during yet another government shutdown.
Read the story. They were paid. These are additional damages on top of that pay to compensate for the delay in pay. Follow the stories back for more details.
Unlike furloughed workers, employees who reported to work during the shutdown were guaranteed retroactive pay. However, the plaintiffs in Martin et. al. v. The United States argue because the excepted workers faced hardships during the shutdown, such as an inability to pay bills on time, they should receive extra compensation.
People really, truly, should stop spreading the idea that employees that work might not be paid for those hours. It is not true, and it muddies the waters and reduces the credibility of the side claiming it.
Contractors that work may not be paid and contractors not working not being paid are the main complaints I have heard.
Employees of contractors that work are covered by FLSA, like any other employee in the country. Contractor employees that do perform work would, I’d think, legally be required to be paid *now* regardless of the shutdown. I could be wrong. But there’s no Antideficiency Act preventing their pay, and so no conflict with the FLSA.
Now actual contractors...which is to say the companies on contract or legitimate independent individual contractors...have the obligation to ensure the contract paying them is valid and funded for any work they are performing. For the most part yeah, those contractors are simply furloughing employees and not performing work during the shutdown.
A lot of people...including on the previous two pages...are calling into question whether direct government employees currently performing work (secret service agents protecting Trump being a popular rhetorical go-to) will be paid. I’ve see at least one person very specifically claim that actual regular working pay for employees was delayed for a year or years...without a source.
Yet all OPM guidance and applicable law says if you are working for the federal government today, you will be paid once the shutdown ends. Full stop.
I am not talking about contractors. I am not talking about furloughed employees. I am speaking solely about excepted federal employees currently performing labor directly for the government under federal government employment agreements. And there are people off and on, including over the last two pages, suggesting these people could wind up not being paid. I’m saying source or GTFO.
The Daily Show dug up video of Trump giving a commencement speech in 2004, encouraging graduates;
“Don’t give up. Don’t allow it to happen. If there’s a concrete wall in front of you, go through it, go over it, go around it, but get to the other side of that wall.”
Well, yeah, but what if it’s a steel wall? And by wall I mean a series of spikes that will probably get hideously bent into all kind of weird shapes by the wind given that they're not actually braced in any credible manner.
No shutdown will ever operate like the last one until it actually does. There are no guarantees here.
Yes. There are. The one guarantee is that essential workers who show up will be paid when the shutdown ends. It's a 100% legal obligation under current law.
That guarantee is functionally meaningless. Folks in this situation in 2013 did get paid eventually (partially in 2014 and fully during a 2017 legal case), but saying that getting paid money you need for your mortgage in a trickle effect one or four years down the line is literally the same thing as not getting paid when you need to meet your mortgage today.
As a state government employee, who works with many federal employee folks, both myself and my friend group have been on various sides of state and federal shutdowns and furloughs. None of them are set in stone and even if they choose to honor payment for the employees working now, there are a great many ways that directors and section leads can fudge the numbers or withhold partial amounts of payment within the law to maintain unit solvency (and the government doesn't always just flood those units with the money from the shutdown, often they don't receive it immediately but in irregular chunks over the duration of the year).
And for the lions share of folks on furlough, who are not deemed essential, they are very likely to not get paid and cannot count of congress and the president being magnanimous (even if historical precedent says they will be). It only takes once for that not to happen.
So, yes. No shutdown is the same as the last one until it is. And so far, it isn't and won't be until its over and it happens.
To be clear, on the bolded, they were paid their full hourly/salary rate immediately after the shutdown, and the “completely” part you refer to was damages in addition to that, right?
Is the case you’re referring to the one I linked a story on last page? Because if so, that seems to be what happened.
This case is about damages for the delay, not the direct pay owed.
It's an incomplete version. Most employees were paid on the next paycheck, but a substantial amount were not. The final payments for the missed time reached the entirety of employees affected by summer of the following year (with the shutdown occurring in October), so just shy of a full year. Some contractors and employees were only partially repaid, and while the settlement in 2017 paid the majority of those affected a settlement, it also was used and considered compensation for funding that had been withheld to a number of employees, meaning that even with the settlement they never received their full benefits and pay due to this day.
I find it odd that not one of the ten or so articles I just read on the case mention this, nor does the 2017 ruling (which I just read through). I suppose I may be missing something. Do you have any source for this? I’m relying on the briefings I’ve received, the OPM guidance available from their site, and every other source I’ve read that implies excepted workers were paid in a timely fashion once the shutdown ended.
However, I’ll admit this wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been wrong. It happens.
Edit: also note that I’m talking solely about federal employees; contractors are another matter.
I'm talking about both, from direct reported experiences from both friends and family members. This isn't an academic discussion.
Federal employee since 2009. I know this isn’t academic.
At this point declaring a national emergency seem's to be Trump's only out.
It'll of course be challenged in court and struck down, but the shutdown would end at least, and even when it gets shut down he would pivot and blame liberal judges or whatever he feels like going off on twitter that day.
Nobody seems to be asking what emergency, time-critical situation is solved by a decades long construction project.
I think Chris Murphy and Brian Schatz on twitter have both come at it form this angle. I think both have posted statistics and basically repeated in all caps that there is no crisis on the southern border.
There was a story today about 110lbs of fentanyl being seized in a port in philly, which is traditionally how drugs are smuggled into the country, and that a border wall would not help at all.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
What is McConnell even saying to object to having a functioning government? Like what words do a competent (but evil) person use to justify what's going on?
Nobody seems to be asking what emergency, time-critical situation is solved by a decades long construction project.
The people clamoring for a wall don’t care.
Absolutely, but I’m a little surprised it hasn’t been a basic question every time the potential national emergency thing comes up. Seems like I might have missed some of it in the noise, though, which is reassuring.
What is McConnell even saying to object to having a functioning government? Like what words do a competent (but evil) person use to justify what's going on?
Exactly. As someone else pointed out, at some point you're declaring revolution by refusing to open the government right?
What is McConnell even saying to object to having a functioning government? Like what words do a competent (but evil) person use to justify what's going on?
He is saying the Senate Rs will not vote for anything that Trump won't sign. Same message he's had since before the shutdown. He doesn't want his name attached to this and is putting it all on the President as much as possible.
I think I saw a public opinion poll that said congressional Rs were only thought to be to blame for the shutdown by about 2% of respondents? Over 50 for Trump and 30something for Ds
So his strategy has been working so far, unfortunately.
What is McConnell even saying to object to having a functioning government? Like what words do a competent (but evil) person use to justify what's going on?
He just puts it on the President. "The President won't sign it so it isn't worth our time voting on it."
It is literally to protect himself and other Senators from a primary from the right and to make sure Trump keeps feeding him conservative judges to confirm.
What is McConnell even saying to object to having a functioning government? Like what words do a competent (but evil) person use to justify what's going on?
The political trick that both Trump and McConnell seem to have stumbled upon is that you don't need to actually justify your actions. You just do them.
What is McConnell even saying to object to having a functioning government? Like what words do a competent (but evil) person use to justify what's going on?
You mean saying politically and publicly? Or saying to other Senators in private?
In private, it’s justified because Republicans can’t take the loss of having had a shutdown “for nothing.” And because the party has to back their president, so if he wants to shutdown over the wall that’s what we’re doing.
In public, pretty sure it’s all the same “need to secure our border” bullshit, placing blame on Democrats who refuse to just concede for this vital national interest.
Edit: yeah, and he’s also just completely ducked the issue and placed it on the president.
What is McConnell even saying to object to having a functioning government? Like what words do a competent (but evil) person use to justify what's going on?
The political trick that both Trump and McConnell seem to have stumbled upon is that you don't need to actually justify your actions. You just do them.
Or in this case, not do them. Something McConnell is super familiar with.
All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
What is McConnell even saying to object to having a functioning government? Like what words do a competent (but evil) person use to justify what's going on?
He is saying the Senate Rs will not vote for anything that Trump won't sign. Same message he's had since before the shutdown. He doesn't want his name attached to this and is putting it all on the President as much as possible.
I think I saw a public opinion poll that said congressional Rs were only thought to be to blame for the shutdown by about 2% of respondents? Over 50 for Trump and 30something for Ds
So his strategy has been working so far, unfortunately.
This is a weird polling trick so it can be hard to parse how much they are actually blamed. The questions tends to be a single answer and they have Trump and the Republicans split so you get to choose one not both.
I feel you might see a different percent if most questions weren't asked like this.
Also it is like 5%.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
What is McConnell even saying to object to having a functioning government? Like what words do a competent (but evil) person use to justify what's going on?
He just puts it on the President. "The President won't sign it so it isn't worth our time voting on it."
It is literally to protect himself and other Senators from a primary from the right and to make sure Trump keeps feeding him conservative judges to confirm.
In public, he also frames it as something the Democrats are doing with their intransigence
In private conversations with his caucus, I imagine he is frank about angling to get team R a win
Federal law enforcement agencies like the Bureau of Prisons, the Transportation Security Administration and U.S. Customs and Border Protection have long struggled with integrity issues, from smuggling contraband into prisons and stealing from luggage to taking bribes at the border. Forcing employees of these law enforcement agencies ― which have also struggled with morale issues ― to work without pay could exacerbate corruption problems, some experts told HuffPost. When unpaid law enforcement employees get desperate, some could become compromised.
“As this thing goes on, and as people’s financial situations become more dire, it always increases the risk for corruption,” says John Roth, the former inspector general for the Department of Homeland Security, which includes TSA and CBP. “It’s ironic that you’re increasing the risk of corruption at the same time as you’re attempting to fortify the border.”
I also wouldn't love to be a person with a security clearance running into clearance-threatening financial difficulties due to the shutdown.
Fun Fact: Being heavily in debt is grounds for dismissal in most of those jobs
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I ZimbraWorst song, played on ugliest guitarRegistered Userregular
Federal law enforcement agencies like the Bureau of Prisons, the Transportation Security Administration and U.S. Customs and Border Protection have long struggled with integrity issues, from smuggling contraband into prisons and stealing from luggage to taking bribes at the border. Forcing employees of these law enforcement agencies ― which have also struggled with morale issues ― to work without pay could exacerbate corruption problems, some experts told HuffPost. When unpaid law enforcement employees get desperate, some could become compromised.
“As this thing goes on, and as people’s financial situations become more dire, it always increases the risk for corruption,” says John Roth, the former inspector general for the Department of Homeland Security, which includes TSA and CBP. “It’s ironic that you’re increasing the risk of corruption at the same time as you’re attempting to fortify the border.”
I also wouldn't love to be a person with a security clearance running into clearance-threatening financial difficulties due to the shutdown.
Fun Fact: Being heavily in debt is grounds for dismissal in most of those jobs
Looks like the FBI Agents Association shares these concerns. From an NBC reporter:
It feels notable that law enforcement unions are getting involved in attacking the shutdown, although I'm not sure if it will move the needle with the GOP.
Federal law enforcement agencies like the Bureau of Prisons, the Transportation Security Administration and U.S. Customs and Border Protection have long struggled with integrity issues, from smuggling contraband into prisons and stealing from luggage to taking bribes at the border. Forcing employees of these law enforcement agencies ― which have also struggled with morale issues ― to work without pay could exacerbate corruption problems, some experts told HuffPost. When unpaid law enforcement employees get desperate, some could become compromised.
“As this thing goes on, and as people’s financial situations become more dire, it always increases the risk for corruption,” says John Roth, the former inspector general for the Department of Homeland Security, which includes TSA and CBP. “It’s ironic that you’re increasing the risk of corruption at the same time as you’re attempting to fortify the border.”
I also wouldn't love to be a person with a security clearance running into clearance-threatening financial difficulties due to the shutdown.
Fun Fact: Being heavily in debt is grounds for dismissal in most of those jobs
Looks like the FBI Agents Association shares these concerns. From an NBC reporter:
It feels notable that law enforcement unions are getting involved in attacking the shutdown, although I'm not sure if it will move the needle with the GOP.
Trump hates the FBI. But Congress is another matter.
I think all the agency heads (ICE, FBI, DEA(I think they are affected), CBP, and so on) going to the Hill and saying the same thing would move a few more Senators.
Apparently Donald is still talking in public. I'm seeing a new clip of him saying "During the campaign, I would say Mexico is going to pay for it. Obviously, I never said this" in the news.
Nancy Pelosi to Republicans: "We're just saying to them, take yes for an answer. This is what you have proposed. Why are you rejecting it at the expense ... of the American people? Did you take an oath to the Constitution or an oath to Donald Trump?" Via ABC
The video runs a little longer than just the written quote there.
Posts
I also wouldn't love to be a person with a security clearance running into clearance-threatening financial difficulties due to the shutdown.
Well, yeah, but what if it’s a steel wall?
I'm talking about both, from direct reported experiences from both friends and family members. This isn't an academic discussion.
Employees of contractors that work are covered by FLSA, like any other employee in the country. Contractor employees that do perform work would, I’d think, legally be required to be paid *now* regardless of the shutdown. I could be wrong. But there’s no Antideficiency Act preventing their pay, and so no conflict with the FLSA.
Now actual contractors...which is to say the companies on contract or legitimate independent individual contractors...have the obligation to ensure the contract paying them is valid and funded for any work they are performing. For the most part yeah, those contractors are simply furloughing employees and not performing work during the shutdown.
A lot of people...including on the previous two pages...are calling into question whether direct government employees currently performing work (secret service agents protecting Trump being a popular rhetorical go-to) will be paid. I’ve see at least one person very specifically claim that actual regular working pay for employees was delayed for a year or years...without a source.
Yet all OPM guidance and applicable law says if you are working for the federal government today, you will be paid once the shutdown ends. Full stop.
I am not talking about contractors. I am not talking about furloughed employees. I am speaking solely about excepted federal employees currently performing labor directly for the government under federal government employment agreements. And there are people off and on, including over the last two pages, suggesting these people could wind up not being paid. I’m saying source or GTFO.
Fixed.
Federal employee since 2009. I know this isn’t academic.
Hope this gets the coverage it warrants. Democrats still taking the right steps to apply pressure. I hope they do this daily.
edit: Chris Murphy is a Senator from Connecticut
They've said they will but I don't believe they've tried to actually bring anything to the floor for a vote.
The anti-BDS bill did not pass the cloture vote (56-44) so yes it was filibustered.
edit: Actually I'm not even sure it was a cloture vote. Article just vaguely said it did not pass vote required "For further consideration" humm
It'll of course be challenged in court and struck down, but the shutdown would end at least, and even when it gets shut down he would pivot and blame liberal judges or whatever he feels like going off on twitter that day.
Most people don't realize we'd likely not start digging for the wall till after trump is out of office.
I think Chris Murphy and Brian Schatz on twitter have both come at it form this angle. I think both have posted statistics and basically repeated in all caps that there is no crisis on the southern border.
There was a story today about 110lbs of fentanyl being seized in a port in philly, which is traditionally how drugs are smuggled into the country, and that a border wall would not help at all.
The people clamoring for a wall don’t care.
Absolutely, but I’m a little surprised it hasn’t been a basic question every time the potential national emergency thing comes up. Seems like I might have missed some of it in the noise, though, which is reassuring.
Exactly. As someone else pointed out, at some point you're declaring revolution by refusing to open the government right?
He is saying the Senate Rs will not vote for anything that Trump won't sign. Same message he's had since before the shutdown. He doesn't want his name attached to this and is putting it all on the President as much as possible.
I think I saw a public opinion poll that said congressional Rs were only thought to be to blame for the shutdown by about 2% of respondents? Over 50 for Trump and 30something for Ds
So his strategy has been working so far, unfortunately.
He just puts it on the President. "The President won't sign it so it isn't worth our time voting on it."
It is literally to protect himself and other Senators from a primary from the right and to make sure Trump keeps feeding him conservative judges to confirm.
The political trick that both Trump and McConnell seem to have stumbled upon is that you don't need to actually justify your actions. You just do them.
You mean saying politically and publicly? Or saying to other Senators in private?
In private, it’s justified because Republicans can’t take the loss of having had a shutdown “for nothing.” And because the party has to back their president, so if he wants to shutdown over the wall that’s what we’re doing.
In public, pretty sure it’s all the same “need to secure our border” bullshit, placing blame on Democrats who refuse to just concede for this vital national interest.
Edit: yeah, and he’s also just completely ducked the issue and placed it on the president.
Or in this case, not do them. Something McConnell is super familiar with.
This is a weird polling trick so it can be hard to parse how much they are actually blamed. The questions tends to be a single answer and they have Trump and the Republicans split so you get to choose one not both.
I feel you might see a different percent if most questions weren't asked like this.
Also it is like 5%.
In public, he also frames it as something the Democrats are doing with their intransigence
In private conversations with his caucus, I imagine he is frank about angling to get team R a win
Fun Fact: Being heavily in debt is grounds for dismissal in most of those jobs
Looks like the FBI Agents Association shares these concerns. From an NBC reporter:
It feels notable that law enforcement unions are getting involved in attacking the shutdown, although I'm not sure if it will move the needle with the GOP.
Specific complaints can be fact checked.
He's just reinforcing his gaslighting of his base.
He probably has called every woman he's ever been involved with an adulturer just because it made it easier to carry on his own affairs.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
Trump hates the FBI. But Congress is another matter.
I think all the agency heads (ICE, FBI, DEA(I think they are affected), CBP, and so on) going to the Hill and saying the same thing would move a few more Senators.
Found a tweet with it.
He....I
"During the campaign I would say Mexico would pay for it. OBVIOUSLY I never said this"
He's gaslighting us in real time now???
Indeed.
"Obviously I never said this."
YOU JUST DID.
Let’s not break out the roflcopters for just yet, guys