Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
I don't have the history with the sport, I've only been watching since 2015, and no car has challenged Mercedes in that time.
And all I said is that he's in a class of driver that there's only a handful of others. Do you think Rossberg was in the same class as Hamilton? I don't know. Bottas isn't.
Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Yeah, that's what I mean.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
edited May 2019
Like, those stats even bear out with our own discussions. Alonso, Hamilton, Verstappen, all up at the top. Whose the best? Eh? *shrug*
Put Alonso in that Mercedes, maybe even Verstappen (I hedge with him because his youth still causes him to make some egregious errors) and Hamilton stops winning all the time.
Who would win the world championship if those drivers all had equal cars? No way you can say it'll be Hamilton with total confidence. It's any one of theirs.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
And again, very few question Michael as the GOAT yet there was rarely doubt who would win the title during this run of 5 at Ferrari. And he had much more complaint teammates who knew their #2 status very clearly. He never had a world champion as a teammate at Ferrari, Hamilton has had 3. Including Alonso, who he beat their one year together.
Would Alonso win at Mercedes? It's hard to say, the guy has destroyed every team he's ever touched. He may have the best wheel and pedal skills in the world but he's a cancer to a team. You can't be "the best" if every team you enter seems to wither under your touch. There is a reason he has never been offered a top ride again, despite being incredibly talented. The fact is that part of being the best, or the GOAT, or one of the best is a measure of success as well as talent. Alonso is the prime example of talent wasted by attitude.
And no, Rosberg is not at that level. He's a very talented driver, but he didn't prove it long enough, and in he was only 1/3 versus Hamilton with Hamilton suffering incredibly bad reliability that year.
Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
That's fair.
I'm not a Hamilton fan, probably clear by now, because of the way I saw him treat Rossberg and the rest of the team when I first started watching (He ran Rossberg off the road a few times, and ignored team orders when they weren't about him being #1, which super rubs me the wrong way, but isn't super unusual either for F1 drivers I guess).
The longer I'm an F1 fan, though, the more I see his behavior as being more normal in the context of the other drivers, but that initial impression of him probably will keep me from ever cheering for him. That said, I've never seen Hamilton actually make an error like Vettel has, or Verstappen has. He just doesn't place a foot wrong. And you're right, that is part of being one of the greatest.
And he will go down in history as one of the greatest, because he'll keep winning championships. And even if someone does build a car to match Mercedes, maybe Hamilton will keep winning championships! I don't know. But right now, we all know he has this season in the bag. And I don't think that's doing any good for Hamilton's legacy.
Of course, with my ignorance of F1 history, I don't know if Schumacher was driving a car that similarly outpaced all the other cars on the field during his streak of wins.
To be fair, I think a lot of drivers would be pretty stressed if they were on a set of rapidly degrading tires at Monaco. It's just to easy to bin it into a wall even in the best of circumstances.
I wonder if this conversation would be different if Ferrari hadn't fucked up that strategy call for Alonso in Abu Dhabi 2010.
Well there the long list of awful Ferrari strategy calls from them til now to bolster any argument. 👍
Yeah, but I'm picking that one because it straight-up lost them and Alonso an entire championship. Alonso and Ferrari may have had a more harmonious relationship going forward at that point, and who knows where that could have led - not least for Alonso's reputation when it comes to intra-team relationships.
Mind you, that same year, I ask "what if Mark Webber hadn't broken his shoulder" (but still kept racing F1 cars because he's just that badass), because then that championship may well have been his instead. He had the measure of Vettel that year and then some until that injury. Which no-one else knew about until after the season was over. Because, again, badass.
To be fair, I think a lot of drivers would be pretty stressed if they were on a set of rapidly degrading tires at Monaco. It's just to easy to bin it into a wall even in the best of circumstances.
Put any driver in a high stress situation and the radio messages are going to sound strained. Same goes for general attitude. Vettel is known to get a bit vocal on the radio when the stress is on, but outside of the car he comes across as one of the nicest and most polite drivers out there. Verstappen is hardly a saint either. Stress kicks in and politeness goes out.
As for driver talent, Hamilton has to sit highest for me. One of the things that sets him apart from the current grid is simply that he's been in a championship fight and came out on top 5 times, and been in the hunt on at least 3 others (2007, 2012, 2016). He's shown time and time again that he can handle it and all the random events that go along with it (mechanical failures, bad strategy calls, just dumb bad luck). To his credit, even though he hasn't handled it well recently Vettel has also managed it. The only other driver on the grid that has really been there is Raikonnen. Verstappen is obviously talented, but until he has a championship (or at least challenged for one) there's a question about how well he could handle it.
Incidentally there were rumours in the Italian press about relations breaking down between Leclerc and Ferrari. Since it's Italian press I wouldn't trust it in the slightest but I do think the hype around Leclerc outstrips his current talent. If you ignore Monaco, it's 4-1 in Vettel's favour in qualifying. In races it's 5-1 to Vettel. While Ferrari's strategy department has definitely played a role in some of those races, he hasn't exactly been error free. He binned it in Baku and was the only retirement in Monaco (which is astounding in a way, I'm still used to Monaco being high attrition). He has shown potential, but nothing really suggests he's faster than Vettel at the minute.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I had high hopes for Leclerc, but he's not really impressing. Some of that is Ferrari, and he is very young, but Verstappen immediately started challenging Ricciardo when he was promoted to Red Bull, so we'll see.
Replace Hamilton with Alonso last weekend. Would the after race celebrations been as jovial as that one video post last page?
That's a genuine question, because I honestly don't know, but that is one of the differences between being One of the Best and a GOAT.
This. Not sure how someone can watch that video and then complain about him having an attitude problem.
It's because people are consistently surprised that sports people at the top of their craft are intense and driven which, as a personality, can be off-putting.
No one gets to the top by being easy going.
What that says about human beings is another thread
Replace Hamilton with Alonso last weekend. Would the after race celebrations been as jovial as that one video post last page?
That's a genuine question, because I honestly don't know, but that is one of the differences between being One of the Best and a GOAT.
This. Not sure how someone can watch that video and then complain about him having an attitude problem.
It's easy to have a good attitude when you're holding the cup. Look at his interactions mid race, or worse, previous years when he's on podium but second fiddle. And worst of all - nobody whines like Hamilton while holding a pit time advantage against second place. You're winning dude, chill out.
not unprecedented (a couple of other teams have road-only drivers).... but probably the highest profile one
Indy should be a full time road series except for the 500... and they need better road tracks. The road racing is actually not terrible
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
FP2. Mercedes is either sandbagging harder than they ever have before, or they're having trouble figuring something out.
Hamilton hit the wall of champions and punctured right rear wtth about an hour left in session. They didn't get the car back out in time to do anything, so he's only done eight laps.
That looks like the turn 8/9 chicane, not the Wall of Champions. All academic, I know, and the margin for error is really no better. Unusual shunt and a big whack.
The W Series race at Misano was one of those races where there was next to no overtaking (although Koyama managed, as always), but close battles all the way; one mistake and they'll be past.
Well done again, Jamie Chadwick. Who had never raced on that track before? Even more well done.
Disappointing for Hamilton, the Merc just isn't as fast as the Ferrari in sector 3. That said, hell of a lap from Vettel to stick it on pole. When Vettel is on form he really is very good.
I love Vettel in the post interviews, just totally lacking in PR bullshit.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2019
Ricciardo out qualifying not only his teammate but both Red Bulls and Bottas.
Sure, he probably only beat Verstappen because of Magnussen crashing and red flagging Verstappen's lap, but second row is second row. The Renaults found some real pace.
Dhalphir on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Mercedes so used to sandbagging that they forgot to stop doing it for Q3
Watching qualifying now. Just wanted to mention that virtual HUD they put on the incar view is the HUD I need in F12019. If anyone knows anyone at codemasters, please make it happen
I'll try to get the video up, but anyone who goes to a gp where there is a Ferrari Challenge dont skip it. It's the most entertaining thing to watch The cars are all private owners so basically doctors and lawyers etc and they um...dont drive them well.
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And all I said is that he's in a class of driver that there's only a handful of others. Do you think Rossberg was in the same class as Hamilton? I don't know. Bottas isn't.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-formula-one-driver-might-be-a-guy-who-hasnt-won-since-2013/
Put Alonso in that Mercedes, maybe even Verstappen (I hedge with him because his youth still causes him to make some egregious errors) and Hamilton stops winning all the time.
Who would win the world championship if those drivers all had equal cars? No way you can say it'll be Hamilton with total confidence. It's any one of theirs.
Would Alonso win at Mercedes? It's hard to say, the guy has destroyed every team he's ever touched. He may have the best wheel and pedal skills in the world but he's a cancer to a team. You can't be "the best" if every team you enter seems to wither under your touch. There is a reason he has never been offered a top ride again, despite being incredibly talented. The fact is that part of being the best, or the GOAT, or one of the best is a measure of success as well as talent. Alonso is the prime example of talent wasted by attitude.
And no, Rosberg is not at that level. He's a very talented driver, but he didn't prove it long enough, and in he was only 1/3 versus Hamilton with Hamilton suffering incredibly bad reliability that year.
I'm not a Hamilton fan, probably clear by now, because of the way I saw him treat Rossberg and the rest of the team when I first started watching (He ran Rossberg off the road a few times, and ignored team orders when they weren't about him being #1, which super rubs me the wrong way, but isn't super unusual either for F1 drivers I guess).
The longer I'm an F1 fan, though, the more I see his behavior as being more normal in the context of the other drivers, but that initial impression of him probably will keep me from ever cheering for him. That said, I've never seen Hamilton actually make an error like Vettel has, or Verstappen has. He just doesn't place a foot wrong. And you're right, that is part of being one of the greatest.
And he will go down in history as one of the greatest, because he'll keep winning championships. And even if someone does build a car to match Mercedes, maybe Hamilton will keep winning championships! I don't know. But right now, we all know he has this season in the bag. And I don't think that's doing any good for Hamilton's legacy.
Of course, with my ignorance of F1 history, I don't know if Schumacher was driving a car that similarly outpaced all the other cars on the field during his streak of wins.
Not really. Hamilton doesn't tear teams apart. Alonso does. Facts are facts, no matter how passive aggressive you are about it.
You can do this for any sport.
It's an unanswerable question though and surely we'll be having this conversation 30 years from now.
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Well there the long list of awful Ferrari strategy calls from them til now to bolster any argument. 👍
Only thing Hamilton is best at is whining incessantly on team radio heyoo
Yeah, his radio messages in Monaco weren't super confident, that's for sure.
He seemed the most stressed out I've ever heard. Guy was simultaneously pissed and scared hah.
Pulled it out though.
Yeah, but I'm picking that one because it straight-up lost them and Alonso an entire championship. Alonso and Ferrari may have had a more harmonious relationship going forward at that point, and who knows where that could have led - not least for Alonso's reputation when it comes to intra-team relationships.
Mind you, that same year, I ask "what if Mark Webber hadn't broken his shoulder" (but still kept racing F1 cars because he's just that badass), because then that championship may well have been his instead. He had the measure of Vettel that year and then some until that injury. Which no-one else knew about until after the season was over. Because, again, badass.
Senna, '88. Enough said.
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As for driver talent, Hamilton has to sit highest for me. One of the things that sets him apart from the current grid is simply that he's been in a championship fight and came out on top 5 times, and been in the hunt on at least 3 others (2007, 2012, 2016). He's shown time and time again that he can handle it and all the random events that go along with it (mechanical failures, bad strategy calls, just dumb bad luck). To his credit, even though he hasn't handled it well recently Vettel has also managed it. The only other driver on the grid that has really been there is Raikonnen. Verstappen is obviously talented, but until he has a championship (or at least challenged for one) there's a question about how well he could handle it.
Incidentally there were rumours in the Italian press about relations breaking down between Leclerc and Ferrari. Since it's Italian press I wouldn't trust it in the slightest but I do think the hype around Leclerc outstrips his current talent. If you ignore Monaco, it's 4-1 in Vettel's favour in qualifying. In races it's 5-1 to Vettel. While Ferrari's strategy department has definitely played a role in some of those races, he hasn't exactly been error free. He binned it in Baku and was the only retirement in Monaco (which is astounding in a way, I'm still used to Monaco being high attrition). He has shown potential, but nothing really suggests he's faster than Vettel at the minute.
That's a genuine question, because I honestly don't know, but that is one of the differences between being One of the Best and a GOAT.
Steam | XBL
This. Not sure how someone can watch that video and then complain about him having an attitude problem.
It's because people are consistently surprised that sports people at the top of their craft are intense and driven which, as a personality, can be off-putting.
No one gets to the top by being easy going.
What that says about human beings is another thread
It's easy to have a good attitude when you're holding the cup. Look at his interactions mid race, or worse, previous years when he's on podium but second fiddle. And worst of all - nobody whines like Hamilton while holding a pit time advantage against second place. You're winning dude, chill out.
https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/23093?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
not unprecedented (a couple of other teams have road-only drivers).... but probably the highest profile one
Indy should be a full time road series except for the 500... and they need better road tracks. The road racing is actually not terrible
Hamilton hit the wall of champions and punctured right rear wtth about an hour left in session. They didn't get the car back out in time to do anything, so he's only done eight laps.
https://streamable.com/7wqrj
Steam | XBL
Steam | XBL
Sure, he probably only beat Verstappen because of Magnussen crashing and red flagging Verstappen's lap, but second row is second row. The Renaults found some real pace.
Currently 2 crashes and one on fire.