How she's played off for the audience and how the other characters react to her are definitely two different things. She's played for the viewer as a cheap laugh, while the the cast in the game are more annoyed and frustrated at her overreactions. I can mostly brush off the character interactions considering that era is pretty ruthless - in the game's framing, her situation is not even all that uncommon(especially within the cast), so I wouldn't expect much of the cast to be notably surprised or taken aback by it (which is why I wouldn't expect especially empathetic treatment). But less excusable is the way she's instead framed for the player themselves, as a goofy anime character to laugh at for her over-the-top reactions.
My problem with Bernadetta is that aside from her serious mental illness getting played for laughs (a *lot*), the nature of how supports work in these games ruin her as a character. Her B & A supports tend to be pretty good and show real growth and character development. Then you get a C support with someone new and she's back to being a paranoid and delusional mess of a character. This also goes for post timeskip where you can get supports *intended* for pre-timeskip but with the post-timeskip appearances and it feels really jarring to see her regress so much as a character at random points in the story (even though she does seem to grow a lot during that five year gap).
Her supports are also extremely cringe. I mean, I know she's messed up but she literally thinks everyone is trying to kill her. Even if that kind of behavior was believable (honestly it's a bit *too* extreme to me...), I can't imagine her even functioning in any kind of scenario like a classroom or combat with the way she acts and thinks.
Honestly, less is more. If they would have toned her down just a little bit but kept the same basic character traits of paranoia and timidness she totally could have worked as a character.
Sorry for whiplash after the fun meme post...back to the Bernadetta discussion.
The patch has quietly altered one of her B support conversations regarding her past (not in patch notes or anything).
From those who are checking it out, they say rather than re-recording it sounds like they took the original dialogue and chopped it up/edited it, and is a little noticeable if you're looking for it.
Spoilers for Bernadetta's past.
Original line:
Edited line:
I really don't like this change at all.
I think it would've been ok to simply remove the word "submissive" as that has some worse connotations. But removing the motivation for being tied to a chair is just weird...what part of being a good wife would involve being tied to a chair, apropos of nothing? In the old conversation, you know the real reason is to force her to be quiet.
The edit almost makes it sound worse, like she's omitting worse details of what came after being tied down.
How she's played off for the audience and how the other characters react to her are definitely two different things. She's played for the viewer as a cheap laugh, while the the cast in the game are more annoyed and frustrated at her overreactions. I can mostly brush off the character interactions considering that era is pretty ruthless - in the game's framing, her situation is not even all that uncommon(especially within the cast), so I wouldn't expect much of the cast to be notably surprised or taken aback by it (which is why I wouldn't expect especially empathetic treatment). But less excusable is the way she's instead framed for the player themselves, as a goofy anime character to laugh at for her over-the-top reactions.
My problem with Bernadetta is that aside from her serious mental illness getting played for laughs (a *lot*), the nature of how supports work in these games ruin her as a character. Her B & A supports tend to be pretty good and show real growth and character development. Then you get a C support with someone new and she's back to being a paranoid and delusional mess of a character. This also goes for post timeskip where you can get supports *intended* for pre-timeskip but with the post-timeskip appearances and it feels really jarring to see her regress so much as a character at random points in the story (even though she does seem to grow a lot during that five year gap).
Her supports are also extremely cringe. I mean, I know she's messed up but she literally thinks everyone is trying to kill her. Even if that kind of behavior was believable (honestly it's a bit *too* extreme to me...), I can't imagine her even functioning in any kind of scenario like a classroom or combat with the way she acts and thinks.
Honestly, less is more. If they would have toned her down just a little bit but kept the same basic character traits of paranoia and timidness she totally could have worked as a character.
Sorry for whiplash after the fun meme post...back to the Bernadetta discussion.
The patch has quietly altered one of her B support conversations regarding her past (not in patch notes or anything).
From those who are checking it out, they say rather than re-recording it sounds like they took the original dialogue and chopped it up/edited it, and is a little noticeable if you're looking for it.
Spoilers for Bernadetta's past.
Original line:
Edited line:
I really don't like this change at all.
I think it would've been ok to simply remove the word "submissive" as that has some worse connotations. But removing the motivation for being tied to a chair is just weird...what part of being a good wife would involve being tied to a chair, apropos of nothing? In the old conversation, you know the real reason is to force her to be quiet.
The edit almost makes it sound worse, like she's omitting worse details of what came after being tied down.
probably to remove insinuation that a good wife has to be quiet and submissive. I don't agree but I couldsee how it might come across as people thinking that is what IS believes. Especially after that whole VA think they had
honestly if they just threw some quotes around good to imply sarcasm or something, it would be ok.
mts on
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
probably to remove insinuation that a good wife has to be quiet and submissive. I don't agree but I couldsee how it might come across as people thinking that is what IS believes. Especially after that whole VA think they had
honestly if they just threw some quotes around good to imply sarcasm or something, it would be ok.
But I mean, it's clearly portrayed as a negative thing. I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion...
I think anyone with even a little bit of common sense will know that it's a bad thing what with bernadettas obvious trauma.
I think the thing you could more reasonably be worried you would imply would be that while the specific trauma she endured was bad, that the aim was good, or at least fine and/or unoffensive.
"They wanted me to be a good, athletic wife so they forced me to run laps around the castle until I threw up"
You can generally divide support conversations into "lols" and "awws."
C supports are often "lols" and some characters never really develop a close personal relationship so all of their supports remain "lols" or at least get undercut at the end.
In this manner:
But some supports are "awws" where a character explains their past traumas and we gain a better understanding of everyone as a person and they possibly grow.
The vast majority of Bernadetta's supports are written as "lols."
For example "haha isn't it funny that she's so mousey and scared of everything that she accidentally performs an expert disarm on Felix as she flees from him, screaming."
You know that's not at all what I said. Bernadetta's over-the-top reactions are written by IS as a comedy for the viewer and outside of certain supports that explain why she's that way, is generally handled poorly. It's been discussed for several pages already and by the internet at large.
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
I think anyone with even a little bit of common sense will know that it's a bad thing what with bernadettas obvious trauma.
I think the thing you could more reasonably be worried you would imply would be that while the specific trauma she endured was bad, that the aim was good, or at least fine and/or unoffensive.
"They wanted me to be a good, athletic wife so they forced me to run laps around the castle until I threw up"
I don't think a reasonable person would draw that conclusion. And fuck the unreasonable ones... You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because some weirdo might be offended by a misunderstanding.
I think anyone with even a little bit of common sense will know that it's a bad thing what with bernadettas obvious trauma.
I think the thing you could more reasonably be worried you would imply would be that while the specific trauma she endured was bad, that the aim was good, or at least fine and/or unoffensive.
"They wanted me to be a good, athletic wife so they forced me to run laps around the castle until I threw up"
I don't think a reasonable person would draw that conclusion. And fuck the unreasonable ones... You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because some weirdo might be offended by a misunderstanding.
I applaud your optimism, but assuming that a japanese game in which "commoner" and "noble" are the only two base classes is pretty much cool with saying wives should be submissive is absolutely not a stretch.
In fact if any japanese game explicitly said anything EXCEPT that wives should be submissive I would consider that somewhat subversive for their culture.
+1
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
edited September 2019
Eh, I never saw anyone insuating anything close to this until the line was changed. I honestly do not think anyone would ever have come to this conclusion. Changing the line honestly does more to draw attention to it than anything.
My biggest problem with the change is that it makes what happened to her seem so much less severe. Aside from the weirdness of "being tied to a chair" somehow equating "a good wife" (with all the actual context of that missing now) it seems less abusive than the original line. Honestly, this whole argument is the reason why the original line works so well. It's absolutely implying the father believed the perfect wife was quiet and submissive. But there's soooooo much pushback in the game about how this is a bad thing (hell, just look at how Bernie turned out) that I don't see how anyone could see it as IS endorsing the concept. I mean, just saying "he tied me to a chair" seems so much less abusive than "he tried to strip me of my free will and dignity" (not that being tied to a chair isn't still bad, but I mean, it pales in comparison to fundamentally trying to destroy a person emotionally for your own selfish desires). Especially in a game that is riddled in those kinds of tropes being bad - the whole nobility spitting on the commoner thing is kind of a similar dynamic (i.e. in that case the common class is supposed to be "submissive" to the whims of the nobility).
Edit: It would be one thing if this was just a straight up Treehouse localization change like the Fates anti-gay potion crap (which honestly is a change I was ok with - not that they didn't fuck up sooooo much else with the localization of that game). But this is a line changed almost two months after release. It's so bizarre.
You know that's not at all what I said. Bernadetta's over-the-top reactions are written by IS as a comedy for the viewer and outside of certain supports that explain why she's that way, is generally handled poorly. It's been discussed for several pages already and by the internet at large.
Sorry if I misinterpreted, I haven't really engaged with the thread in detail lately nor I do look at the game's Reddit/Twitter community.
It's been a month or so since I finished the game and all I can remember from Bernadetta's character was that it was quite sad that she felt the need to run away from people.
This is my first jrpg that I've actually finished so I'm likely being charitable with the localisation team especially if they've got a history of just being idiots.
I think anyone with even a little bit of common sense will know that it's a bad thing what with bernadettas obvious trauma.
I think the thing you could more reasonably be worried you would imply would be that while the specific trauma she endured was bad, that the aim was good, or at least fine and/or unoffensive.
"They wanted me to be a good, athletic wife so they forced me to run laps around the castle until I threw up"
I don't think a reasonable person would draw that conclusion. And fuck the unreasonable ones... You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because some weirdo might be offended by a misunderstanding.
I applaud your optimism, but assuming that a japanese game in which "commoner" and "noble" are the only two base classes is pretty much cool with saying wives should be submissive is absolutely not a stretch.
In fact if any japanese game explicitly said anything EXCEPT that wives should be submissive I would consider that somewhat subversive for their culture.
It's not exactly like this game is overflowing with "submissive" women. Maybe Marrianne (who was the character I happened to not really encounter on my run so I'm going off what I read elsewhere) but she's probably more broken than Bernie.
Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
So question. If I recruit Lorenz AFTER the month his paralogue first becomes available, do I miss out on it? I've had him at B rank forever but the jerk refuses to come talk to me, and now the month is over. I'll be sad if I can't get his relic because of it...
I think anyone with even a little bit of common sense will know that it's a bad thing what with bernadettas obvious trauma.
I think the thing you could more reasonably be worried you would imply would be that while the specific trauma she endured was bad, that the aim was good, or at least fine and/or unoffensive.
"They wanted me to be a good, athletic wife so they forced me to run laps around the castle until I threw up"
I don't think a reasonable person would draw that conclusion. And fuck the unreasonable ones... You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because some weirdo might be offended by a misunderstanding.
I applaud your optimism, but assuming that a japanese game in which "commoner" and "noble" are the only two base classes is pretty much cool with saying wives should be submissive is absolutely not a stretch.
In fact if any japanese game explicitly said anything EXCEPT that wives should be submissive I would consider that somewhat subversive for their culture.
It's not exactly like this game is overflowing with "submissive" women. Maybe Marrianne (who was the character I happened to not really encounter on my run so I'm going off what I read elsewhere) but she's probably more broken than Bernie.
I would say that the game's themes are fairly neutral on this point. On the one hand you've got characters like ingrid who are utterly uninterested in the submissive wife life, but on the other you have characters like dorothea and lorenz who are all about playing the tradition game.
But that's mostly beside the point. I wasn't saying the game was or wasn't taking a stance on the issue, I was saying that I wouldn't think it was unreasonable to read that into the game based on that particular support conversation.
So question. If I recruit Lorenz AFTER the month his paralogue first becomes available, do I miss out on it? I've had him at B rank forever but the jerk refuses to come talk to me, and now the month is over. I'll be sad if I can't get his relic because of it...
I don't think so. In my first playthrough I basically recruited Lorenz nearly at the last second and I still got his Paralogue.
Also, you can just try recruiting him during when you're Exploring.
I think anyone with even a little bit of common sense will know that it's a bad thing what with bernadettas obvious trauma.
I think the thing you could more reasonably be worried you would imply would be that while the specific trauma she endured was bad, that the aim was good, or at least fine and/or unoffensive.
"They wanted me to be a good, athletic wife so they forced me to run laps around the castle until I threw up"
I don't think a reasonable person would draw that conclusion. And fuck the unreasonable ones... You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because some weirdo might be offended by a misunderstanding.
I applaud your optimism, but assuming that a japanese game in which "commoner" and "noble" are the only two base classes is pretty much cool with saying wives should be submissive is absolutely not a stretch.
In fact if any japanese game explicitly said anything EXCEPT that wives should be submissive I would consider that somewhat subversive for their culture.
It's not exactly like this game is overflowing with "submissive" women. Maybe Marrianne (who was the character I happened to not really encounter on my run so I'm going off what I read elsewhere) but she's probably more broken than Bernie.
I would say that the game's themes are fairly neutral on this point. On the one hand you've got characters like ingrid who are utterly uninterested in the submissive wife life, but on the other you have characters like dorothea and lorenz who are all about playing the tradition game.
But that's mostly beside the point. I wasn't saying the game was or wasn't taking a stance on the issue, I was saying that I wouldn't think it was unreasonable to read that into the game based on that particular support conversation.
Dorothea’s whole thing is about how the system of nobility fucking sucks and that she feels forced to play into traditional roles if she wants to feel safe and secure in her future.
And a large part of her arc is her refusing to settle for it, and following her heart instead.
And Lorenz’s Attitude towards women and marriage is clearly portrayed as wrong.
The game absolutely takes a stance on these issues and the themes aren’t anywhere approaching neutral here.
Like literally the entire game is about how systems of nobility are oppressive garbage that do nothing but create victims and suffering.
So question. If I recruit Lorenz AFTER the month his paralogue first becomes available, do I miss out on it? I've had him at B rank forever but the jerk refuses to come talk to me, and now the month is over. I'll be sad if I can't get his relic because of it...
I don't think so. In my first playthrough I basically recruited Lorenz nearly at the last second and I still got his Paralogue.
Also, you can just try recruiting him during when you're Exploring.
You can only randomly recruit people during the week who are B support. During Explore, you either meet their skill requirements based on their support level, or they refuse you. It's not random.
So question. If I recruit Lorenz AFTER the month his paralogue first becomes available, do I miss out on it? I've had him at B rank forever but the jerk refuses to come talk to me, and now the month is over. I'll be sad if I can't get his relic because of it...
I don't think so. In my first playthrough I basically recruited Lorenz nearly at the last second and I still got his Paralogue.
Also, you can just try recruiting him during when you're Exploring.
You can only randomly recruit people during the week who are B support. During Explore, you either meet their skill requirements based on their support level, or they refuse you. It's not random.
It may not be random, but...
Well, I've had B supports who refused to join when I asked. Then, during next week's Explore, I was still at the same skill level, they were still at B Support (A was not lit up), and after an extra meal time and some flowers, they did join when asked.
So I dunno. Maybe extra support points help. Maybe partial progress to the next skill level also helps.
Man, Leonie is kinda ridiculous as a Falcon Knight. She's got so much avoid that she can essentially safely draw out archers since they only have like a 15% chance of hitting her, and even if they do hit her, she has Aegis which has a pretty high trigger chance since she has 40 dex.
Add me on Switch: 7795-5541-4699
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
So question. If I recruit Lorenz AFTER the month his paralogue first becomes available, do I miss out on it? I've had him at B rank forever but the jerk refuses to come talk to me, and now the month is over. I'll be sad if I can't get his relic because of it...
I don't think so. In my first playthrough I basically recruited Lorenz nearly at the last second and I still got his Paralogue.
Also, you can just try recruiting him during when you're Exploring.
You can only randomly recruit people during the week who are B support. During Explore, you either meet their skill requirements based on their support level, or they refuse you. It's not random.
It may not be random, but...
Well, I've had B supports who refused to join when I asked. Then, during next week's Explore, I was still at the same skill level, they were still at B Support (A was not lit up), and after an extra meal time and some flowers, they did join when asked.
So I dunno. Maybe extra support points help. Maybe partial progress to the next skill level also helps.
B+ lowers the requirements needed compared to B Support.
Man, Leonie is kinda ridiculous as a Falcon Knight. She's got so much avoid that she can essentially safely draw out archers since they only have like a 15% chance of hitting her, and even if they do hit her, she has Aegis which has a pretty high trigger chance since she has 40 dex.
Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord are both ridiculously powerful classes. That +10 avoid innate, flying, canto, and good stats and growths on both of them is silly. And then they can land if you really need terrain bonuses anyways. At least the developers weren't crazy enough to let you have a flying mage.
Man, Leonie is kinda ridiculous as a Falcon Knight. She's got so much avoid that she can essentially safely draw out archers since they only have like a 15% chance of hitting her, and even if they do hit her, she has Aegis which has a pretty high trigger chance since she has 40 dex.
Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord are both ridiculously powerful classes. That +10 avoid innate, flying, canto, and good stats and growths on both of them is silly. And then they can land if you really need terrain bonuses anyways. At least the developers weren't crazy enough to let you have a flying mage.
Dark Flier and Malig Knight DLC! Galeforce is coming.
Off-the-wall idea: what if, as you developed Reason or Faith skills, you got an Ability that applied half-casting for that magic type, regardless of class? Similar, I guess, to the way Heavy Armor gives you -3 Weight at C-rank and -5 Weight at S-Rank. I'd say that an Ability slot, especially one per magic type, would be a reasonable cost to create a mild make-your-own-hybrid-caster gesture.
C-Rank [Reason|Faith]: Practiced [Black|Dark|White] Magic - Allows 50% of [Black|Dark|White] magic uses, regardless of class.
S-Rank [Reason|Faith]: Natural [Black|Dark|White] Magic - Allows 100% of [Black|Dark|White] magic uses, regardless of class.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
So question. If I recruit Lorenz AFTER the month his paralogue first becomes available, do I miss out on it? I've had him at B rank forever but the jerk refuses to come talk to me, and now the month is over. I'll be sad if I can't get his relic because of it...
I don't think so. In my first playthrough I basically recruited Lorenz nearly at the last second and I still got his Paralogue.
Also, you can just try recruiting him during when you're Exploring.
You can only randomly recruit people during the week who are B support. During Explore, you either meet their skill requirements based on their support level, or they refuse you. It's not random.
It may not be random, but...
Well, I've had B supports who refused to join when I asked. Then, during next week's Explore, I was still at the same skill level, they were still at B Support (A was not lit up), and after an extra meal time and some flowers, they did join when asked.
So I dunno. Maybe extra support points help. Maybe partial progress to the next skill level also helps.
B+ lowers the requirements needed compared to B Support.
I don't see how. Byleth only has a B+ Support with Claude and he ain't recruitable.
Or do you mean that additional support points beyond getting to B (but not enough to get to A) do count when it comes to lowering skill level requirements?
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
So question. If I recruit Lorenz AFTER the month his paralogue first becomes available, do I miss out on it? I've had him at B rank forever but the jerk refuses to come talk to me, and now the month is over. I'll be sad if I can't get his relic because of it...
I don't think so. In my first playthrough I basically recruited Lorenz nearly at the last second and I still got his Paralogue.
Also, you can just try recruiting him during when you're Exploring.
You can only randomly recruit people during the week who are B support. During Explore, you either meet their skill requirements based on their support level, or they refuse you. It's not random.
It may not be random, but...
Well, I've had B supports who refused to join when I asked. Then, during next week's Explore, I was still at the same skill level, they were still at B Support (A was not lit up), and after an extra meal time and some flowers, they did join when asked.
So I dunno. Maybe extra support points help. Maybe partial progress to the next skill level also helps.
B+ lowers the requirements needed compared to B Support.
I don't see how. Byleth only has a B+ Support with Claude and he ain't recruitable.
Or do you mean that additional support points beyond getting to B (but not enough to get to A) do count when it comes to lowering skill level requirements?
B+ is a distinct Support level that you can achieve with anyone, regardless of if there's a scene associated with it. It requires additional support points past B but not quite A.
I think anyone with even a little bit of common sense will know that it's a bad thing what with bernadettas obvious trauma.
I think the thing you could more reasonably be worried you would imply would be that while the specific trauma she endured was bad, that the aim was good, or at least fine and/or unoffensive.
"They wanted me to be a good, athletic wife so they forced me to run laps around the castle until I threw up"
I don't think a reasonable person would draw that conclusion. And fuck the unreasonable ones... You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because some weirdo might be offended by a misunderstanding.
I applaud your optimism, but assuming that a japanese game in which "commoner" and "noble" are the only two base classes is pretty much cool with saying wives should be submissive is absolutely not a stretch.
In fact if any japanese game explicitly said anything EXCEPT that wives should be submissive I would consider that somewhat subversive for their culture.
It's not exactly like this game is overflowing with "submissive" women. Maybe Marrianne (who was the character I happened to not really encounter on my run so I'm going off what I read elsewhere) but she's probably more broken than Bernie.
I would say that the game's themes are fairly neutral on this point. On the one hand you've got characters like ingrid who are utterly uninterested in the submissive wife life, but on the other you have characters like dorothea and lorenz who are all about playing the tradition game.
But that's mostly beside the point. I wasn't saying the game was or wasn't taking a stance on the issue, I was saying that I wouldn't think it was unreasonable to read that into the game based on that particular support conversation.
Dorothea’s whole thing is about how the system of nobility fucking sucks and that she feels forced to play into traditional roles if she wants to feel safe and secure in her future.
And a large part of her arc is her refusing to settle for it, and following her heart instead.
And Lorenz’s Attitude towards women and marriage is clearly portrayed as wrong.
The game absolutely takes a stance on these issues and the themes aren’t anywhere approaching neutral here.
Like literally the entire game is about how systems of nobility are oppressive garbage that do nothing but create victims and suffering.
However, major path spoilers kinda:
Isn't there only one path through the game that has someone actually doing something about it? Abolishing the nobility? The rest seem content in maintaining the status quo?
I think anyone with even a little bit of common sense will know that it's a bad thing what with bernadettas obvious trauma.
I think the thing you could more reasonably be worried you would imply would be that while the specific trauma she endured was bad, that the aim was good, or at least fine and/or unoffensive.
"They wanted me to be a good, athletic wife so they forced me to run laps around the castle until I threw up"
I don't think a reasonable person would draw that conclusion. And fuck the unreasonable ones... You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because some weirdo might be offended by a misunderstanding.
I applaud your optimism, but assuming that a japanese game in which "commoner" and "noble" are the only two base classes is pretty much cool with saying wives should be submissive is absolutely not a stretch.
In fact if any japanese game explicitly said anything EXCEPT that wives should be submissive I would consider that somewhat subversive for their culture.
It's not exactly like this game is overflowing with "submissive" women. Maybe Marrianne (who was the character I happened to not really encounter on my run so I'm going off what I read elsewhere) but she's probably more broken than Bernie.
I would say that the game's themes are fairly neutral on this point. On the one hand you've got characters like ingrid who are utterly uninterested in the submissive wife life, but on the other you have characters like dorothea and lorenz who are all about playing the tradition game.
But that's mostly beside the point. I wasn't saying the game was or wasn't taking a stance on the issue, I was saying that I wouldn't think it was unreasonable to read that into the game based on that particular support conversation.
Dorothea’s whole thing is about how the system of nobility fucking sucks and that she feels forced to play into traditional roles if she wants to feel safe and secure in her future.
And a large part of her arc is her refusing to settle for it, and following her heart instead.
And Lorenz’s Attitude towards women and marriage is clearly portrayed as wrong.
The game absolutely takes a stance on these issues and the themes aren’t anywhere approaching neutral here.
Like literally the entire game is about how systems of nobility are oppressive garbage that do nothing but create victims and suffering.
However, major path spoilers kinda:
Isn't there only one path through the game that has someone actually doing something about it? Abolishing the nobility? The rest seem content in maintaining the status quo?
Different character pairings affect the extent to which the characters deal with the crest system, but as the core story threads I believe while all three paths are "improving life for the common man" good-guy type stuff, only Edelgard's explicitly deals with also tearing down the nobility, wanting to replacing it with a meritocracy.
Taking a break from the Three Houses discussion (I don't have a Switch, so I can't chime in), I'm at the point in Echoes where the map design just seems kind of. . . unfair. Specifically the Duma Swamp map, which I'm stuck on. What am I supposed to do against an already tanky guy with a Dracoshield (thanks, guys!) who keeps spawning not insignificant enemies in the middle of a toxic swamp? And he ruins anybody who tries to attack him, even my Saber, who's a level 9 Dread Fighter with great stats who can usually solo most situations. It's been killing any motivation I have to continue. Any help would be appreciated.
Taking a break from the Three Houses discussion (I don't have a Switch, so I can't chime in), I'm at the point in Echoes where the map design just seems kind of. . . unfair. Specifically the Duma Swamp map, which I'm stuck on. What am I supposed to do against an already tanky guy with a Dracoshield (thanks, guys!) who keeps spawning not insignificant enemies in the middle of a toxic swamp? And he ruins anybody who tries to attack him, even my Saber, who's a level 9 Dread Fighter with great stats who can usually solo most situations. It's been killing any motivation I have to continue. Any help would be appreciated.
If it's the battle I'm thinking of (Act 4, Part 8), despite the stated condition of "rout the enemy", you are not actually required to defeat the guy with the Dracoshield. You just need to survive long enough for him to say "fwahaha, see how easily crushed you are" and then the plot will move on from there.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
Man, Leonie is kinda ridiculous as a Falcon Knight. She's got so much avoid that she can essentially safely draw out archers since they only have like a 15% chance of hitting her, and even if they do hit her, she has Aegis which has a pretty high trigger chance since she has 40 dex.
Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord are both ridiculously powerful classes. That +10 avoid innate, flying, canto, and good stats and growths on both of them is silly. And then they can land if you really need terrain bonuses anyways. At least the developers weren't crazy enough to let you have a flying mage.
I threw an Aurora Shield on Ingrid and she became a front line skirmisher. Felt bad for the archers that thought she would be an easy target.
So question. If I recruit Lorenz AFTER the month his paralogue first becomes available, do I miss out on it? I've had him at B rank forever but the jerk refuses to come talk to me, and now the month is over. I'll be sad if I can't get his relic because of it...
I don't think so. In my first playthrough I basically recruited Lorenz nearly at the last second and I still got his Paralogue.
Also, you can just try recruiting him during when you're Exploring.
OK this is good to know. My first playthrough I recruited him but it was the last month before the timeskip so I think his paralogue didn't have time to show up.
Edit: Can confirm, his paralogue showed up the next month
The Three Houses gift system kind of annoys me in how unbalanced it is.
There are a bunch of characters who only love 3 gift items, and you can only buy two of them, once per month.
These characters:
Annette and Rhea
...only love 3 items, and you can only buy one of them! And other people also love that item, so unless you're using a guide and being careful you might give them all away to others.
So obviously it's much harder to raise support with these characters, especially for purposes of getting them to join your class.
But then there are others who love as many as 6 items, and one of them is a flower, which I have gotten up to 8 from one single seed planting.
I dunno I just wish they had put a little more care into the system. Some flowers are completely unloved by anyone, they could've added a few of those to people with only 3 loves.
The Three Houses gift system kind of annoys me in how unbalanced it is.
There are a bunch of characters who only love 3 gift items, and you can only buy two of them, once per month.
These characters:
Annette and Rhea
...only love 3 items, and you can only buy one of them! And other people also love that item, so unless you're using a guide and being careful you might give them all away to others.
So obviously it's much harder to raise support with these characters, especially for purposes of getting them to join your class.
But then there are others who love as many as 6 items, and one of them is a flower, which I have gotten up to 8 from one single seed planting.
I dunno I just wish they had put a little more care into the system. Some flowers are completely unloved by anyone, they could've added a few of those to people with only 3 loves.
Owl feathers are loved by everyone
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
The Three Houses gift system kind of annoys me in how unbalanced it is.
There are a bunch of characters who only love 3 gift items, and you can only buy two of them, once per month.
These characters:
Annette and Rhea
...only love 3 items, and you can only buy one of them! And other people also love that item, so unless you're using a guide and being careful you might give them all away to others.
So obviously it's much harder to raise support with these characters, especially for purposes of getting them to join your class.
But then there are others who love as many as 6 items, and one of them is a flower, which I have gotten up to 8 from one single seed planting.
I dunno I just wish they had put a little more care into the system. Some flowers are completely unloved by anyone, they could've added a few of those to people with only 3 loves.
About your spoiler:
Annette at least loves Choir practice. She was one of the first characters I recruited because of that.
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Sorry for whiplash after the fun meme post...back to the Bernadetta discussion.
The patch has quietly altered one of her B support conversations regarding her past (not in patch notes or anything).
From those who are checking it out, they say rather than re-recording it sounds like they took the original dialogue and chopped it up/edited it, and is a little noticeable if you're looking for it.
Spoilers for Bernadetta's past.
Edited line:
I really don't like this change at all.
I think it would've been ok to simply remove the word "submissive" as that has some worse connotations. But removing the motivation for being tied to a chair is just weird...what part of being a good wife would involve being tied to a chair, apropos of nothing? In the old conversation, you know the real reason is to force her to be quiet.
The edit almost makes it sound worse, like she's omitting worse details of what came after being tied down.
I just don't get the rationale.
Here's a brief analysis of the dialogue in the original Japanese.
WTF, why would you change that? Are they trying to kill what little sympathy I had for the character?
honestly if they just threw some quotes around good to imply sarcasm or something, it would be ok.
But I mean, it's clearly portrayed as a negative thing. I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion...
Yes, but with that interpretation, now people will think IS is implying that
Steam: CavilatRest
I'm really curious now whether this is a change that was also done for the JP version, or whether this is Treehouse doing Treehouse shit again.
Steam: CavilatRest
I think the thing you could more reasonably be worried you would imply would be that while the specific trauma she endured was bad, that the aim was good, or at least fine and/or unoffensive.
"They wanted me to be a good, athletic wife so they forced me to run laps around the castle until I threw up"
You can generally divide support conversations into "lols" and "awws."
C supports are often "lols" and some characters never really develop a close personal relationship so all of their supports remain "lols" or at least get undercut at the end.
In this manner:
But some supports are "awws" where a character explains their past traumas and we gain a better understanding of everyone as a person and they possibly grow.
The vast majority of Bernadetta's supports are written as "lols."
For example "haha isn't it funny that she's so mousey and scared of everything that she accidentally performs an expert disarm on Felix as she flees from him, screaming."
You know that's not at all what I said. Bernadetta's over-the-top reactions are written by IS as a comedy for the viewer and outside of certain supports that explain why she's that way, is generally handled poorly. It's been discussed for several pages already and by the internet at large.
I don't think a reasonable person would draw that conclusion. And fuck the unreasonable ones... You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because some weirdo might be offended by a misunderstanding.
I applaud your optimism, but assuming that a japanese game in which "commoner" and "noble" are the only two base classes is pretty much cool with saying wives should be submissive is absolutely not a stretch.
In fact if any japanese game explicitly said anything EXCEPT that wives should be submissive I would consider that somewhat subversive for their culture.
My biggest problem with the change is that it makes what happened to her seem so much less severe. Aside from the weirdness of "being tied to a chair" somehow equating "a good wife" (with all the actual context of that missing now) it seems less abusive than the original line. Honestly, this whole argument is the reason why the original line works so well. It's absolutely implying the father believed the perfect wife was quiet and submissive. But there's soooooo much pushback in the game about how this is a bad thing (hell, just look at how Bernie turned out) that I don't see how anyone could see it as IS endorsing the concept. I mean, just saying "he tied me to a chair" seems so much less abusive than "he tried to strip me of my free will and dignity" (not that being tied to a chair isn't still bad, but I mean, it pales in comparison to fundamentally trying to destroy a person emotionally for your own selfish desires). Especially in a game that is riddled in those kinds of tropes being bad - the whole nobility spitting on the commoner thing is kind of a similar dynamic (i.e. in that case the common class is supposed to be "submissive" to the whims of the nobility).
Edit: It would be one thing if this was just a straight up Treehouse localization change like the Fates anti-gay potion crap (which honestly is a change I was ok with - not that they didn't fuck up sooooo much else with the localization of that game). But this is a line changed almost two months after release. It's so bizarre.
Sorry if I misinterpreted, I haven't really engaged with the thread in detail lately nor I do look at the game's Reddit/Twitter community.
It's been a month or so since I finished the game and all I can remember from Bernadetta's character was that it was quite sad that she felt the need to run away from people.
This is my first jrpg that I've actually finished so I'm likely being charitable with the localisation team especially if they've got a history of just being idiots.
Steam: CavilatRest
It's not exactly like this game is overflowing with "submissive" women. Maybe Marrianne (who was the character I happened to not really encounter on my run so I'm going off what I read elsewhere) but she's probably more broken than Bernie.
I would say that the game's themes are fairly neutral on this point. On the one hand you've got characters like ingrid who are utterly uninterested in the submissive wife life, but on the other you have characters like dorothea and lorenz who are all about playing the tradition game.
But that's mostly beside the point. I wasn't saying the game was or wasn't taking a stance on the issue, I was saying that I wouldn't think it was unreasonable to read that into the game based on that particular support conversation.
I don't think so. In my first playthrough I basically recruited Lorenz nearly at the last second and I still got his Paralogue.
Also, you can just try recruiting him during when you're Exploring.
Dorothea’s whole thing is about how the system of nobility fucking sucks and that she feels forced to play into traditional roles if she wants to feel safe and secure in her future.
And a large part of her arc is her refusing to settle for it, and following her heart instead.
And Lorenz’s Attitude towards women and marriage is clearly portrayed as wrong.
The game absolutely takes a stance on these issues and the themes aren’t anywhere approaching neutral here.
Like literally the entire game is about how systems of nobility are oppressive garbage that do nothing but create victims and suffering.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
You can only randomly recruit people during the week who are B support. During Explore, you either meet their skill requirements based on their support level, or they refuse you. It's not random.
It may not be random, but...
Well, I've had B supports who refused to join when I asked. Then, during next week's Explore, I was still at the same skill level, they were still at B Support (A was not lit up), and after an extra meal time and some flowers, they did join when asked.
So I dunno. Maybe extra support points help. Maybe partial progress to the next skill level also helps.
B+ lowers the requirements needed compared to B Support.
Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord are both ridiculously powerful classes. That +10 avoid innate, flying, canto, and good stats and growths on both of them is silly. And then they can land if you really need terrain bonuses anyways. At least the developers weren't crazy enough to let you have a flying mage.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Dark Flier and Malig Knight DLC! Galeforce is coming.
C-Rank [Reason|Faith]: Practiced [Black|Dark|White] Magic - Allows 50% of [Black|Dark|White] magic uses, regardless of class.
S-Rank [Reason|Faith]: Natural [Black|Dark|White] Magic - Allows 100% of [Black|Dark|White] magic uses, regardless of class.
I don't see how. Byleth only has a B+ Support with Claude and he ain't recruitable.
Or do you mean that additional support points beyond getting to B (but not enough to get to A) do count when it comes to lowering skill level requirements?
B+ is a distinct Support level that you can achieve with anyone, regardless of if there's a scene associated with it. It requires additional support points past B but not quite A.
Anywho, I'm pulling info from here.
However, major path spoilers kinda:
If it's the battle I'm thinking of (Act 4, Part 8), despite the stated condition of "rout the enemy", you are not actually required to defeat the guy with the Dracoshield. You just need to survive long enough for him to say "fwahaha, see how easily crushed you are" and then the plot will move on from there.
I threw an Aurora Shield on Ingrid and she became a front line skirmisher. Felt bad for the archers that thought she would be an easy target.
OK this is good to know. My first playthrough I recruited him but it was the last month before the timeskip so I think his paralogue didn't have time to show up.
Edit: Can confirm, his paralogue showed up the next month
There are a bunch of characters who only love 3 gift items, and you can only buy two of them, once per month.
These characters:
So obviously it's much harder to raise support with these characters, especially for purposes of getting them to join your class.
But then there are others who love as many as 6 items, and one of them is a flower, which I have gotten up to 8 from one single seed planting.
I dunno I just wish they had put a little more care into the system. Some flowers are completely unloved by anyone, they could've added a few of those to people with only 3 loves.
Owl feathers are loved by everyone
About your spoiler: