Also, one thing that I discovered when playing with non-board-gamers is that a lot of people LIKE quarterbacking. Which makes me go "huh?" but these are people who are just there for the company and the narrative and will happily go along with anyone else's suggestion. Agency doesn't mean anything to them, and they actually get bored if you aren't helping them along or suggesting the best moves. Everyone is wired differently. I personally prefer games with meaningful agency and the ability to think through my own moves without succumbing to analysis paralysis, but that's my (and probably people in this thread) way of playing games and not necessarily what other people want out of their board game experience.
I see this sometimes too, and I think part of that comes from wanting to be part of the experience of playing with the group or trying the game, but recognizing they aren't experts, and as such actively want input as to what others consider to be better or optimal choices. Even if the person giving the suggestion is wrong.
Sometimes I do this myself with a game I'm not familiar with. I certainly don't expect the other players to run my turn in a 'play by committee' style, but especially on more complicated affairs, it's not unreasonable to get some input. This can, like anything, be taken to an extreme. It's part of why I try to lay out possible options and possible outcomes when a new(er) player is at a game or demo I'm running, and why I enjoy 'GM'ing' even cooperative games that don't require one (such as my beloved Shadows of Brimstone); having an experienced player who can lay out the options, possible outcomes/ramifications of those choices, pull the cards, set things up, and whatnot to otherwise keep things flowing smoothly can help a lot.
But, again, there are limits and it's a fine line to walk between presenting people with enough information to make informed choices, and overwhelming them with superfluous info that actively makes their experience worse/more frustrating.
I'd expect that most folks here are introspective enough to walk that line pretty well, but I've also met enough abrasive and obnoxious life long gamers to know that some people never quite catch that, and an unnecessarily shitty experience with a game can turn people off it (or gaming with that group in general) to wish more would consider how their actions and behaviour can affect a given group dynamic.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I played ghost stories tonight with someone i invited to a party who doesn’t like that sort of game
Mistakes were made
That game seems to have a worse quarterbacking problem than pandemic
Maybe the worst I’ve ever seen
Games don't really have innate quarterbacking problems; literally all coops can have that issue but they're caused by the players, not the games.
To this point, any game can have a quarterbacking problem for this exact reason. You could be playing anything, and a player could go, "oh you shouldn't do that, you should do x instead because you'll get more points or it's better for reason y". It's really on the players, not really the game.
There are games that are designed with quarterbacking in mind. I mean, in Space Alert, there's a captain's role whose literal job is to quarterback the rest of the players, but the gameplay is so frantic and fast-paced (and in real time) that you kinda need that job to make quick and decisive decisions.
But that's not quarterbacking, that's just someone doing the role they're supposed to and it doesn't necessarily mean someone else with control issues won't try to do the same.
+1
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jergarmarhollow man crewgoes pew pew pewRegistered Userregular
I played ghost stories tonight with someone i invited to a party who doesn’t like that sort of game
Mistakes were made
That game seems to have a worse quarterbacking problem than pandemic
Maybe the worst I’ve ever seen
Games don't really have innate quarterbacking problems; literally all coops can have that issue but they're caused by the players, not the games.
To this point, any game can have a quarterbacking problem for this exact reason. You could be playing anything, and a player could go, "oh you shouldn't do that, you should do x instead because you'll get more points or it's better for reason y". It's really on the players, not really the game.
Well, the type of game matters. In a co-op game, if someone says, "You should/could do X", there's a social dynamic in play, where if you ignore the advice, it may degrade the game experience for other players. I might feel bad if we lose the game because I chose not to follow someone's advice.
Similarly, in a game like Puerto Rico, where the choices of the players drive the flow of the game, one player picking something weird can definitely mess up one or more of the other players. Again, quarterbacking happens because the fun of other players is at stake.
If it's just advice on how to play, and it minimally affects other players, it can still be annoying, but that's not tied to the game itself.
So I think it's a fair point that some games naturally tend towards more quarterbacking. It's part of the larger category of "new player experience". If you're often playing with strangers and/or new players, it's probably more on your mind. If you have a regular group that tends to learn games together, it probably doesn't come up nearly as much.
jergarmar on
When I was a child, I had a fever... My BoardGameGeek profile
Battle.net: TheGerm#1430 (Hearthstone, Destiny 2)
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
I played ghost stories tonight with someone i invited to a party who doesn’t like that sort of game
Mistakes were made
That game seems to have a worse quarterbacking problem than pandemic
Maybe the worst I’ve ever seen
Games don't really have innate quarterbacking problems; literally all coops can have that issue but they're caused by the players, not the games.
To this point, any game can have a quarterbacking problem for this exact reason. You could be playing anything, and a player could go, "oh you shouldn't do that, you should do x instead because you'll get more points or it's better for reason y". It's really on the players, not really the game.
Well, the type of game matters. In a co-op game, if someone says, "You should/could do X", there's a social dynamic in play, where if you ignore the advice, it may degrade the game experience for other players. I might feel bad if we lose the game because I chose not to follow someone's advice.
Similarly, in a game like Puerto Rico, where the choices of the players drive the flow of the game, one player picking something weird can definitely mess up one or more of the other players. Again, quarterbacking happens because the fun of other players is at stake.
If it's just advice on how to play, and it minimally affects other players, it can still be annoying, but that's not tied to the game itself.
So I think it's a fair point that some games naturally tend towards more quarterbacking. It's part of the larger category of "new player experience". If you're often playing with strangers and/or new players, it's probably more on your mind. If you have a regular group that tends to learn games together, it probably doesn't come up nearly as much.
Some people are turned off by the characteristic of “we would have a better chance of winning if i weren’t here and my buddy played my turn” even if everyone at the table is perfect about never offering advice. We have to pick coop games carefully at one of my tables because “team solitaire” is a fair description of ghost stories / pandemic / spirit island and one guy hates team solitaire. He doesn’t hate cool-op games, just this subsection of them.
I played ghost stories tonight with someone i invited to a party who doesn’t like that sort of game
Mistakes were made
That game seems to have a worse quarterbacking problem than pandemic
Maybe the worst I’ve ever seen
Games don't really have innate quarterbacking problems; literally all coops can have that issue but they're caused by the players, not the games.
To this point, any game can have a quarterbacking problem for this exact reason. You could be playing anything, and a player could go, "oh you shouldn't do that, you should do x instead because you'll get more points or it's better for reason y". It's really on the players, not really the game.
Well, the type of game matters. In a co-op game, if someone says, "You should/could do X", there's a social dynamic in play, where if you ignore the advice, it may degrade the game experience for other players. I might feel bad if we lose the game because I chose not to follow someone's advice.
Similarly, in a game like Puerto Rico, where the choices of the players drive the flow of the game, one player picking something weird can definitely mess up one or more of the other players. Again, quarterbacking happens because the fun of other players is at stake.
If it's just advice on how to play, and it minimally affects other players, it can still be annoying, but that's not tied to the game itself.
So I think it's a fair point that some games naturally tend towards more quarterbacking. It's part of the larger category of "new player experience". If you're often playing with strangers and/or new players, it's probably more on your mind. If you have a regular group that tends to learn games together, it probably doesn't come up nearly as much.
Some people are turned off by the characteristic of “we would have a better chance of winning if i weren’t here and my buddy played my turn” even if everyone at the table is perfect about never offering advice. We have to pick coop games carefully at one of my tables because “team solitaire” is a fair description of ghost stories / pandemic / spirit island and one guy hates team solitaire. He doesn’t hate cool-op games, just this subsection of them.
That's why I like battle star Galactica and dead of winter. Because the biggest quarterbackers might just be trying to screw you over.
I played ghost stories tonight with someone i invited to a party who doesn’t like that sort of game
Mistakes were made
That game seems to have a worse quarterbacking problem than pandemic
Maybe the worst I’ve ever seen
Games don't really have innate quarterbacking problems; literally all coops can have that issue but they're caused by the players, not the games.
To this point, any game can have a quarterbacking problem for this exact reason. You could be playing anything, and a player could go, "oh you shouldn't do that, you should do x instead because you'll get more points or it's better for reason y". It's really on the players, not really the game.
Well, the type of game matters. In a co-op game, if someone says, "You should/could do X", there's a social dynamic in play, where if you ignore the advice, it may degrade the game experience for other players. I might feel bad if we lose the game because I chose not to follow someone's advice.
Similarly, in a game like Puerto Rico, where the choices of the players drive the flow of the game, one player picking something weird can definitely mess up one or more of the other players. Again, quarterbacking happens because the fun of other players is at stake.
If it's just advice on how to play, and it minimally affects other players, it can still be annoying, but that's not tied to the game itself.
So I think it's a fair point that some games naturally tend towards more quarterbacking. It's part of the larger category of "new player experience". If you're often playing with strangers and/or new players, it's probably more on your mind. If you have a regular group that tends to learn games together, it probably doesn't come up nearly as much.
Some people are turned off by the characteristic of “we would have a better chance of winning if i weren’t here and my buddy played my turn” even if everyone at the table is perfect about never offering advice. We have to pick coop games carefully at one of my tables because “team solitaire” is a fair description of ghost stories / pandemic / spirit island and one guy hates team solitaire. He doesn’t hate cool-op games, just this subsection of them.
That's why I like battle star Galactica and dead of winter. Because the biggest quarterbackers might just be trying to screw you over.
Definitely not co-op games, there. The hidden traitor aspect is basically the whole gameplay.
Death: "DID YOU SAY HUMANS PLAY IT FOR FUN?"
Twoflower: "Some of them get to be very good at it, yes. I'm only an amateur, I'm afraid"
Death: "BUT THEY ONLY LIVE EIGHTY OR NINETY YEARS!"
Went into Miniature Market yesterday and... didn't buy anything. I'm sorry I do miss their old store setup where they grouped everything by the percentage of discount, that seemed much more effective in separating me from my money.
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Discworld was weird in that all the books were great, but every time they did an adaptation (cartoon or live action) that followed the book exactly, it fell so flat. I guess it's because the majority of the humor was in the narration. If you strip that out and just leave the mise-en-scène, it doesn't work very well.
Ok I know youtube will show me questionable recommended videos and channels
But it showed me a wargaming magazine one and now I hate money https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsinXo11nqM
Yeah, I dunno. They've been very friendly and kind whenever I've talked to them at PAXU, and they do a decent job of board game reviews and first looks. They've each got their own tastes, which once you figure out makes it easier to understand if a game would be something you'd enjoy. Sure Tom's a little wacky with the wardrobe, but I think he leans into it now?
Ok I know youtube will show me questionable recommended videos and channels
But it showed me a wargaming magazine one and now I hate money https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsinXo11nqM
FYI the battlesystems terrain is pretty rad. I've been wanting to get Core Space to check it out, but it's more than I care to spend atm.
Ok I know youtube will show me questionable recommended videos and channels
But it showed me a wargaming magazine one and now I hate money https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsinXo11nqM
FYI the battlesystems terrain is pretty rad. I've been wanting to get Core Space to check it out, but it's more than I care to spend atm.
Oh I am reaaaally liking Marvel Champions, I think this is my new LCG of choice
The alter-ego thing is a really inspired storytelling aspect, it makes a game feel like a run of issues since you hop in and out of the fray
I picked a set up at Rhode Island Comic Con over the weekend and haven't gotten around to opening it. Glad to know there's something to look forward to!
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ArcticLancerBest served chilled.Registered Userregular
Yeah, I dunno. They've been very friendly and kind whenever I've talked to them at PAXU, and they do a decent job of board game reviews and first looks. They've each got their own tastes, which once you figure out makes it easier to understand if a game would be something you'd enjoy. Sure Tom's a little wacky with the wardrobe, but I think he leans into it now?
Wish I had anything more concrete, but a few years ago Tom was a big name guest at a local convention (Hal-Con for anyone curious; for whatever reason, at the time I wasn't able to attend). Everyone I know who interacted with him had nothing positive to say, which included most of the staff at the board game cafe I used to work at (thus including good friends and overall decent people both). There's a specific event tired to the convention where people are meant to get a chance to mingle with the invited guests, and Tom decided he didn't like it and just left.
Another friend of mine has also pointed out that he/his family is definitely a quiver (it's a term for Christian families that basically want to out-populate non-Christians by having tons of kids). Again, it's not something you'll find him self-declaring or anything, but at this point I agree with the assessment.
*shrug* this all still winds up being heresay, but I'm very much inclined to believe the accounts of numerous people I trust. Combined with just how little I like most of their opinions and presentation and ... Big pass.
jergarmarhollow man crewgoes pew pew pewRegistered Userregular
I don't follow them much anymore, but it does seem like The Dice Tower has given assistance to and promoted a wide range of new YouTube reviewers. And along those lines, they have also sought a wide voting consensus for the Dice Tower Awards, which seems to highlight pretty good games. So that seems cool.
We have lots of options for board game reviewers now, but for a time there wasn't much on YT like his Top 100 games of the year. At that time there was a good chance that a random person at a board game meetup/convention had seen them. So maybe not essential these days, but geez, I can't imagine trying to count the number of people he helped get enthusiastic about the hobby. So, y'know, that should probably count for something.
When I was a child, I had a fever... My BoardGameGeek profile
Battle.net: TheGerm#1430 (Hearthstone, Destiny 2)
Yeah, I dunno. They've been very friendly and kind whenever I've talked to them at PAXU, and they do a decent job of board game reviews and first looks. They've each got their own tastes, which once you figure out makes it easier to understand if a game would be something you'd enjoy. Sure Tom's a little wacky with the wardrobe, but I think he leans into it now?
Wish I had anything more concrete, but a few years ago Tom was a big name guest at a local convention (Hal-Con for anyone curious; for whatever reason, at the time I wasn't able to attend). Everyone I know who interacted with him had nothing positive to say, which included most of the staff at the board game cafe I used to work at (thus including good friends and overall decent people both). There's a specific event tired to the convention where people are meant to get a chance to mingle with the invited guests, and Tom decided he didn't like it and just left. Another friend of mine has also pointed out that he/his family is definitely a quiver (it's a term for Christian families that basically want to out-populate non-Christians by having tons of kids). Again, it's not something you'll find him self-declaring or anything, but at this point I agree with the assessment.
*shrug* this all still winds up being heresay, but I'm very much inclined to believe the accounts of numerous people I trust. Combined with just how little I like most of their opinions and presentation and ... Big pass.
I'd be careful assigning labels to people they haven't given themselves.
He has 6 kids, and while it's more than the norm, it's nowhere near the 10+ a "quiver full" family could/would have. Some families do well with lots of kids too. My dad is one of six, and I have five, and neither my grandmother nor I would consider ourselves part of that group.
I am sad to hear that a bunch of people got negative impressions at the con. It's different from my experience, but that doesn't invalidate their experience. I'm not trying to defend him, just was curious why some don't care for him outside of not liking his review method or tastes.
https://youtu.be/jQxpKAtvdT0
I tried this the other night with my brother and his family and man it is a ton of fun. I would never play it for money though holy shit. The pot gets wildly out of control real fast.
That mainly and they slam games in reviews that they don't actually bother to learn the rules for.
To be honest, I simply don't enjoy Tom's radio voice and that has generally kept me away from his content.
It seems like you must have examples in mind?
I couldn't reference them at this point even if I wanted as it was years ago but I watched him back in the day and the times I could point out him getting a major rule wrong with the game and that affecting his review of it was close to 100%.
And when you use your influence to convince people not to play or buy certain games because you deem them "dangerous to Christianity" you've ascended to outright asshole in my book.
Are you talking about the dice steeple podcasts? Have you actually listened to them? I haven't, a s have no interest in the subject matter. They don't seem to be what you are representing then as from a brief perusal of the subjects discussed though I dunno.
Are you talking about the dice steeple podcasts? Have you actually listened to them? I haven't, a s have no interest in the subject matter. They don't seem to be what you are representing then as from a brief perusal of the subjects discussed though I dunno.
No, these were videos. I've never heard of Dice Steeple.
Posts
I see this sometimes too, and I think part of that comes from wanting to be part of the experience of playing with the group or trying the game, but recognizing they aren't experts, and as such actively want input as to what others consider to be better or optimal choices. Even if the person giving the suggestion is wrong.
Sometimes I do this myself with a game I'm not familiar with. I certainly don't expect the other players to run my turn in a 'play by committee' style, but especially on more complicated affairs, it's not unreasonable to get some input. This can, like anything, be taken to an extreme. It's part of why I try to lay out possible options and possible outcomes when a new(er) player is at a game or demo I'm running, and why I enjoy 'GM'ing' even cooperative games that don't require one (such as my beloved Shadows of Brimstone); having an experienced player who can lay out the options, possible outcomes/ramifications of those choices, pull the cards, set things up, and whatnot to otherwise keep things flowing smoothly can help a lot.
But, again, there are limits and it's a fine line to walk between presenting people with enough information to make informed choices, and overwhelming them with superfluous info that actively makes their experience worse/more frustrating.
I'd expect that most folks here are introspective enough to walk that line pretty well, but I've also met enough abrasive and obnoxious life long gamers to know that some people never quite catch that, and an unnecessarily shitty experience with a game can turn people off it (or gaming with that group in general) to wish more would consider how their actions and behaviour can affect a given group dynamic.
But that's not quarterbacking, that's just someone doing the role they're supposed to and it doesn't necessarily mean someone else with control issues won't try to do the same.
Well, the type of game matters. In a co-op game, if someone says, "You should/could do X", there's a social dynamic in play, where if you ignore the advice, it may degrade the game experience for other players. I might feel bad if we lose the game because I chose not to follow someone's advice.
Similarly, in a game like Puerto Rico, where the choices of the players drive the flow of the game, one player picking something weird can definitely mess up one or more of the other players. Again, quarterbacking happens because the fun of other players is at stake.
If it's just advice on how to play, and it minimally affects other players, it can still be annoying, but that's not tied to the game itself.
So I think it's a fair point that some games naturally tend towards more quarterbacking. It's part of the larger category of "new player experience". If you're often playing with strangers and/or new players, it's probably more on your mind. If you have a regular group that tends to learn games together, it probably doesn't come up nearly as much.
My BoardGameGeek profile
Battle.net: TheGerm#1430 (Hearthstone, Destiny 2)
Some people are turned off by the characteristic of “we would have a better chance of winning if i weren’t here and my buddy played my turn” even if everyone at the table is perfect about never offering advice. We have to pick coop games carefully at one of my tables because “team solitaire” is a fair description of ghost stories / pandemic / spirit island and one guy hates team solitaire. He doesn’t hate cool-op games, just this subsection of them.
That's why I like battle star Galactica and dead of winter. Because the biggest quarterbackers might just be trying to screw you over.
How can older people who play in Bridge clubs balk at the most mildly complex board/card game as "too complicated" ?
Likely because they have to learn it now and not fourth years ago when they learned Bridge.
I'm re-reading the night watch series, and that would be a great reflavor to blades in the dark.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
But it showed me a wargaming magazine one and now I hate money
They could learn a lot about being better people in general.
I have been thoroughly out of the loop for a bit. Better people?
Terrible "wacky" nerd wardrobe?
I dunno. I'm reaching.
That mainly and they slam games in reviews that they don't actually bother to learn the rules for.
To be honest, I simply don't enjoy Tom's radio voice and that has generally kept me away from his content.
It seems like you must have examples in mind?
FYI the battlesystems terrain is pretty rad. I've been wanting to get Core Space to check it out, but it's more than I care to spend atm.
Those components do look pretty amazing.
The alter-ego thing is a really inspired storytelling aspect, it makes a game feel like a run of issues since you hop in and out of the fray
I picked a set up at Rhode Island Comic Con over the weekend and haven't gotten around to opening it. Glad to know there's something to look forward to!
Another friend of mine has also pointed out that he/his family is definitely a quiver (it's a term for Christian families that basically want to out-populate non-Christians by having tons of kids). Again, it's not something you'll find him self-declaring or anything, but at this point I agree with the assessment.
*shrug* this all still winds up being heresay, but I'm very much inclined to believe the accounts of numerous people I trust. Combined with just how little I like most of their opinions and presentation and ... Big pass.
Perhaps I can interest you in my meager selection of pins?
We have lots of options for board game reviewers now, but for a time there wasn't much on YT like his Top 100 games of the year. At that time there was a good chance that a random person at a board game meetup/convention had seen them. So maybe not essential these days, but geez, I can't imagine trying to count the number of people he helped get enthusiastic about the hobby. So, y'know, that should probably count for something.
My BoardGameGeek profile
Battle.net: TheGerm#1430 (Hearthstone, Destiny 2)
I'd be careful assigning labels to people they haven't given themselves.
He has 6 kids, and while it's more than the norm, it's nowhere near the 10+ a "quiver full" family could/would have. Some families do well with lots of kids too. My dad is one of six, and I have five, and neither my grandmother nor I would consider ourselves part of that group.
I am sad to hear that a bunch of people got negative impressions at the con. It's different from my experience, but that doesn't invalidate their experience. I'm not trying to defend him, just was curious why some don't care for him outside of not liking his review method or tastes.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
I tried this the other night with my brother and his family and man it is a ton of fun. I would never play it for money though holy shit. The pot gets wildly out of control real fast.
MNC Dover
Playtime: Approximately 78 years
Max supported players: 3
Yeah but you need four if you ever want to play a proper game of Dune
I couldn't reference them at this point even if I wanted as it was years ago but I watched him back in the day and the times I could point out him getting a major rule wrong with the game and that affecting his review of it was close to 100%.
And when you use your influence to convince people not to play or buy certain games because you deem them "dangerous to Christianity" you've ascended to outright asshole in my book.
He had a whole series last I looked, just go search his site. For all I know he may have taken them down.
No, these were videos. I've never heard of Dice Steeple.
Let me tell you about Chaos in the Old World...
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar