I don't really give any credence to the 'evolved human' lines from ds9 and I think quark's assessment of humans being as violent as Klingons or jem'hadar or treacherous as the romulans is accurate. We see O'brein murder a cellmate when he runs out of his own rations. We see Sisko take command of star fleet ground forces and permit their use of slurs to describe the enemy and decoration from the desecrated corpses of Jem'hadar.
And on the whole I think I'm okay with that depiction of the star trek universe, an inverse to tommy lee jones' outlook on people in men in black. The society has improved and there has been an elimination of poverty and intra-humanity prejudice. At the individual level there's still a lot of flaws and improvement that needs to happen, for example not trying to entrap a young ferengi showing interest in star feel academy.
Maybe it's been my own recent, personal experiences but I appreciate the foil between ds9 and tng. That given the flawed protagonists of ds9 that mirror contemporary flaws I can reflect on my own contribution towards the star trek ideal.
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
Point of order: O'Brien never killed his cell mate, that happened when he was in brain prison
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
I enjoyed Quark pointing out that Ferengi haven't done half the heinous things that humans have done.
I fucking hhhhhhate that monologue. I have never turned so hard on what I used to think was a great moment in fiction. It's probably Behr's single biggest fuckup as a writer on DS9. Either that, or the most "Viewers don't actually get what the writer was going for" moment in DS9...which can still probably be laid at Behr's feet for not getting the right point across.
"We never had war" says the guy who's literally sold weapons to both sides of a war.
"We never had slavery" says the guy whose species regularly engages in slaving at other points in the franchise, and who personally advocates keeping half the populace of his species in gender-based slavery well after this episode.
"We're better than you" said the show's most prominent representative of the sole remaining purely capitalist power in a post-scarcity community.
Are we supposed to agree with such nonsense? Or are we not supposed to agree with him, but then they had to cut Sisko's clapback later in the ep? Either way, the show beefed it hard on that scene. Quark actually had a point with the "you look down on us in general and me in particular but you're willing to utilize our/my skills when necessary". That's a good and accurate assertion and fits the long-running theme of D9S.
Then he went and completely ruined it by linking the scenario to a grander comparison between the two species, which...spare me the cultural posturing from the hypercapitalist misogynist war profiteer, please.
He’s still right though. What human beings have done and still do today is absolutely worse than anything that the Ferengi are depicted as doing in the show, even the very worst of it pales in comparison to what we are doing today.
You really should rewatch the one where he's dealing weapons. They, uh, they plan to do some things that are easily as bad as anything humans have done.
It's a cute little speech to try and make a point, but it's at odds with how they've depicted the Ferengi both before and after.
The only decent ones are those who live largely outside Ferengi society, i.e. the ones we see most on DS9.
Their entire culture is built on exploitation. Not just the occasional genocidal despot or religious zealot that humans have.
The Ferengi view the exploitation and mistreatment of others as aspirational.
Knitdan...that is literally the world we live in
I’m talking about an entire culture, not just the people with wealth or those in charge.
The existence of socialism, for example, would not be allowed on Ferengully. It would be quickly stamped out. Things we take for granted, such as women wearing clothes or working, or unions, are explicitly illegal. There is an entire secret police dedicated to rooting out any Ferengi who fails to adequately exploit their workers.
So many of these things are literally true in so many human cultures that exist on the planet right now
Right, so they are just as bad as humans I guess. You know, the exact opposite of what Quark's speech is claiming.
Like, the Ferengi are literally a caricature of human capitalism. Of course they are, at best, exactly as bad as we are.
I enjoyed Quark pointing out that Ferengi haven't done half the heinous things that humans have done.
I fucking hhhhhhate that monologue. I have never turned so hard on what I used to think was a great moment in fiction. It's probably Behr's single biggest fuckup as a writer on DS9. Either that, or the most "Viewers don't actually get what the writer was going for" moment in DS9...which can still probably be laid at Behr's feet for not getting the right point across.
"We never had war" says the guy who's literally sold weapons to both sides of a war.
"We never had slavery" says the guy whose species regularly engages in slaving at other points in the franchise, and who personally advocates keeping half the populace of his species in gender-based slavery well after this episode.
"We're better than you" said the show's most prominent representative of the sole remaining purely capitalist power in a post-scarcity community.
Are we supposed to agree with such nonsense? Or are we not supposed to agree with him, but then they had to cut Sisko's clapback later in the ep? Either way, the show beefed it hard on that scene. Quark actually had a point with the "you look down on us in general and me in particular but you're willing to utilize our/my skills when necessary". That's a good and accurate assertion and fits the long-running theme of D9S.
Then he went and completely ruined it by linking the scenario to a grander comparison between the two species, which...spare me the cultural posturing from the hypercapitalist misogynist war profiteer, please.
He’s still right though. What human beings have done and still do today is absolutely worse than anything that the Ferengi are depicted as doing in the show, even the very worst of it pales in comparison to what we are doing today.
You really should rewatch the one where he's dealing weapons. They, uh, they plan to do some things that are easily as bad as anything humans have done.
It's a cute little speech to try and make a point, but it's at odds with how they've depicted the Ferengi both before and after.
Doesn't Quark, in that episode, decide that millions of deaths is a line that he personally won't cross? And tacitly admits as such to, and gets commended by, Sisko?
I enjoyed Quark pointing out that Ferengi haven't done half the heinous things that humans have done.
I fucking hhhhhhate that monologue. I have never turned so hard on what I used to think was a great moment in fiction. It's probably Behr's single biggest fuckup as a writer on DS9. Either that, or the most "Viewers don't actually get what the writer was going for" moment in DS9...which can still probably be laid at Behr's feet for not getting the right point across.
"We never had war" says the guy who's literally sold weapons to both sides of a war.
"We never had slavery" says the guy whose species regularly engages in slaving at other points in the franchise, and who personally advocates keeping half the populace of his species in gender-based slavery well after this episode.
"We're better than you" said the show's most prominent representative of the sole remaining purely capitalist power in a post-scarcity community.
Are we supposed to agree with such nonsense? Or are we not supposed to agree with him, but then they had to cut Sisko's clapback later in the ep? Either way, the show beefed it hard on that scene. Quark actually had a point with the "you look down on us in general and me in particular but you're willing to utilize our/my skills when necessary". That's a good and accurate assertion and fits the long-running theme of D9S.
Then he went and completely ruined it by linking the scenario to a grander comparison between the two species, which...spare me the cultural posturing from the hypercapitalist misogynist war profiteer, please.
He’s still right though. What human beings have done and still do today is absolutely worse than anything that the Ferengi are depicted as doing in the show, even the very worst of it pales in comparison to what we are doing today.
You really should rewatch the one where he's dealing weapons. They, uh, they plan to do some things that are easily as bad as anything humans have done.
It's a cute little speech to try and make a point, but it's at odds with how they've depicted the Ferengi both before and after.
Doesn't Quark, in that episode, decide that millions of deaths is a line that he personally won't cross? And tacitly admits as such to, and gets commended by, Sisko?
Quark does. But that's why Quark owns a bar and not a moon. It's kinda the whole point of the episode. His cousin was 100% willing to go along with the deal, because that's what a good ferengi would do.
shryke on
+2
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
edited November 2019
Ok I think I’ve gotten to the episode you’re talking about Cambiata
The Ferengi are reforming into a Federation-style democracy with social programs and everything
All because the Grand Nagus Vek got seduced by Moogie.
knitdan on
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
+1
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
edited November 2019
Ok the pacing at the end of this finale is bizarre
So we keep cutting back between the fire cave and the main cast infiltration of cardassia prime
And to be honest I wasn’t paying much attention to the fire cave because the whole prophets-emissary-pahwraith mambo jumbo has always been the weakest part of the show
So Odo cures the main changeling, she ends the war, and everyone’s happy.
And we’re having a denouement party and meanwhile I’m thinking hang on, did I completely forget what happened at the Fire Cave? Oh well, I always hated that storyline anyway
And right about that moment, the show goes back to the Fire Cave
As if all that bullshit even mattered one bit
It’s like the writers were watching dailies and realized they’d forgotten about the stupid fire cave so they had to break into the denouement and finish off the Emissary story.
...And now we get everyone’s goodbyes and more endings than Return of the King
knitdan on
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
+7
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Instantly doubling your potential customer base on ferenginar? That's huge! And tradition?
A deal is a deal... until a better one comes along
If only American political PR were as good!
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
+3
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I've been watching The Orville and it's pretty good but one thing that it really highlights for me by contrast is how intensely good the main sets for every Trek series have been. Even TOS, for all the foam rocks and alien skylines that were obviously a painted backdrop 5 feet behind the actors, had really solid-looking, tangible ship sets with a strong sense of place.
The Orville is obviously not a cheap show, with a parade of big-name guest actors and really good space CGI, but it has this core issue where the bridge and ship sets feel to me like a really glossy, high-quality sketch comedy set (say, like something out of Key and Peele) rather than an actual tangible place. This isn't uniformly the case; the briefing room set, with its big table with the cool lighting effects on the corners, feels both simple and tactile. But the bridge, especially certain shots on the bridge, honestly sometimes feels like three dudes on Twitch with a nice green screen setup streaming their new Star Trek video game.
I kinda felt this way about Galaxy Quest too, although it struck me less in that because Galaxy Quest basically is a a glossy, high-quality comedy sketch. But this is less of a knock against those things than something that's renewed my appreciation for the way Trek has gotten consistently good set construction over 50 years of different shows and movies. Enterprise had a lot of problems but the interiors were never one of them, for me, and Discovery has some genuinely gorgeous sets if the fucking camera would sit still for five seconds to let us see them.
I've been watching The Orville and it's pretty good but one thing that it really highlights for me by contrast is how intensely good the main sets for every Trek series have been. Even TOS, for all the foam rocks and alien skylines that were obviously a painted backdrop 5 feet behind the actors, had really solid-looking, tangible ship sets with a strong sense of place.
The Orville is obviously not a cheap show, with a parade of big-name guest actors and really good space CGI, but it has this core issue where the bridge and ship sets feel to me like a really glossy, high-quality sketch comedy set (say, like something out of Key and Peele) rather than an actual tangible place. This isn't uniformly the case; the briefing room set, with its big table with the cool lighting effects on the corners, feels both simple and tactile. But the bridge, especially certain shots on the bridge, honestly sometimes feels like three dudes on Twitch with a nice green screen setup streaming their new Star Trek video game.
I kinda felt this way about Galaxy Quest too, although it struck me less in that because Galaxy Quest basically is a a glossy, high-quality comedy sketch. But this is less of a knock against those things than something that's renewed my appreciation for the way Trek has gotten consistently good set construction over 50 years of different shows and movies. Enterprise had a lot of problems but the interiors were never one of them, for me, and Discovery has some genuinely gorgeous sets if the fucking camera would sit still for five seconds to let us see them.
I had the same reaction watching the Orville and I felt like on some level there was a conscious choice to make especially the bridge feel like a sitcom "room where characters have lines". My head canon is that McFarlane sold the Orville to Fox as "another successful comedy take on a genre", but had all the parts of a fully-functional Trek show stashed away under cushions and behind panels until after the executives saw the viewership numbers and gave a cautious thumbs-up - then wham, all the panels swivel around (not literally, I think we're stuck with sitcom-room-proportions bridge and Engineering for example) and it's the TNG reboot he actually wanted all along.
I have two points of evidence for this - the change in uniform badges from something the Kratt Brothers would wear to simple metal discs between s1 and s2, and one or two establishing shots that are looking in a window from outside the ship that are just 100% TNG-with-different-actors.
Is Worf just constantly constipated? Is that why he drinks so much prune juice and is always angry?
He's angry cause he's a Klingon. He drinks prune juice because it is the beverage of a true warrior.
As we see in a couple of eps, most Klingons are much less uptight than Worf. It seems to be a combination of his upbringing (including an incident where he accidentally killed another boy during a soccer match, and made a solemn vow, etc, plus the whole "modeling himself on the propaganda and legends, not the reality" thing) and natural temperament.
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
It's cuz he grew up in Russia. Such is life in Moscow.
Sometimes I wish I didn't have such a fuming hatred for Seth McFarlane so that I could make myself watch The Orville.
I detested the guy about as much as anybody for the crap he's put on TV, but Orville turned me around on him so much that I don't even mind the crap anymore because it meant we get Orville now.
If nothing else, the guy clearly really really loves Star Trek.
Sometimes I wish I didn't have such a fuming hatred for Seth McFarlane so that I could make myself watch The Orville.
I detested the guy about as much as anybody for the crap he's put on TV, but Orville turned me around on him so much that I don't even mind the crap anymore because it meant we get Orville now.
If nothing else, the guy clearly really really loves Star Trek.
If it was just that he was a purveyor of fine packaged shit, like the guy who had invented Spencer's Gifts, I'd have a lot easier time with it. My problems with him are more along the lines of making misogyny affecting real women the butt of his live performance jokes, and then acting like that was him taking a brave stand instead of just... laughing at women who are forced to bow to the whims of more powerful white men in order to achieve something in their industry. Like ha ha, you showed your bewbs, thanks! I'm sure that has nothing to do with how men are never asked to give extensive penis bump shots in every film and no one would ever write a similar song about that because it would make no sense!
Maybe someday I'll stop being angry at his stupid, smug face, but today is not yet that day. If only he had cast someone else in the lead role.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Is Worf just constantly constipated? Is that why he drinks so much prune juice and is always angry?
He's angry cause he's a Klingon. He drinks prune juice because it is the beverage of a true warrior.
It seems to be a combination of his upbringing (including an incident where he accidentally killed another boy during a soccer match, and made a solemn vow, etc,
Is Worf just constantly constipated? Is that why he drinks so much prune juice and is always angry?
He's angry cause he's a Klingon. He drinks prune juice because it is the beverage of a true warrior.
It seems to be a combination of his upbringing (including an incident where he accidentally killed another boy during a soccer match, and made a solemn vow, etc,
Wait, what now?
This bit of his history was explained in DS9 during the worst episode, Let He Who Is Without Sin.
Considering how bad that episode is overall, I think we can strike it from the record.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
i'm also on the countdown of episodes for the final season. Odo just met another multimorpher and while exploring that was good for Odo, the rest of the cast were Aholes. I don't care if there's a war on. Also Quark's speech was terrible.
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-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
It’s some shlubby white dude named Robert OReilly
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
And on the whole I think I'm okay with that depiction of the star trek universe, an inverse to tommy lee jones' outlook on people in men in black. The society has improved and there has been an elimination of poverty and intra-humanity prejudice. At the individual level there's still a lot of flaws and improvement that needs to happen, for example not trying to entrap a young ferengi showing interest in star feel academy.
Maybe it's been my own recent, personal experiences but I appreciate the foil between ds9 and tng. That given the flawed protagonists of ds9 that mirror contemporary flaws I can reflect on my own contribution towards the star trek ideal.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
You really should rewatch the one where he's dealing weapons. They, uh, they plan to do some things that are easily as bad as anything humans have done.
It's a cute little speech to try and make a point, but it's at odds with how they've depicted the Ferengi both before and after.
I submit that it was real to him, and had as much of an effect as Picard's life as Kamen.
Right, so they are just as bad as humans I guess. You know, the exact opposite of what Quark's speech is claiming.
Like, the Ferengi are literally a caricature of human capitalism. Of course they are, at best, exactly as bad as we are.
Quark does. But that's why Quark owns a bar and not a moon. It's kinda the whole point of the episode. His cousin was 100% willing to go along with the deal, because that's what a good ferengi would do.
All because the Grand Nagus Vek got seduced by Moogie.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
And to be honest I wasn’t paying much attention to the fire cave because the whole prophets-emissary-pahwraith mambo jumbo has always been the weakest part of the show
So Odo cures the main changeling, she ends the war, and everyone’s happy.
And we’re having a denouement party and meanwhile I’m thinking hang on, did I completely forget what happened at the Fire Cave? Oh well, I always hated that storyline anyway
And right about that moment, the show goes back to the Fire Cave
As if all that bullshit even mattered one bit
It’s like the writers were watching dailies and realized they’d forgotten about the stupid fire cave so they had to break into the denouement and finish off the Emissary story.
...And now we get everyone’s goodbyes and more endings than Return of the King
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Right, that's the one. You specifically said Ferengi could "never" turn socialist. Turns out they're more reformable than 90% of Star Trek's species.
Though granted it'll take more time than this, and like all progress they'll suffer some reverses.
Instantly doubling your potential customer base on ferenginar? That's huge! And tradition?
A deal is a deal... until a better one comes along
If only American political PR were as good!
The Orville is obviously not a cheap show, with a parade of big-name guest actors and really good space CGI, but it has this core issue where the bridge and ship sets feel to me like a really glossy, high-quality sketch comedy set (say, like something out of Key and Peele) rather than an actual tangible place. This isn't uniformly the case; the briefing room set, with its big table with the cool lighting effects on the corners, feels both simple and tactile. But the bridge, especially certain shots on the bridge, honestly sometimes feels like three dudes on Twitch with a nice green screen setup streaming their new Star Trek video game.
I kinda felt this way about Galaxy Quest too, although it struck me less in that because Galaxy Quest basically is a a glossy, high-quality comedy sketch. But this is less of a knock against those things than something that's renewed my appreciation for the way Trek has gotten consistently good set construction over 50 years of different shows and movies. Enterprise had a lot of problems but the interiors were never one of them, for me, and Discovery has some genuinely gorgeous sets if the fucking camera would sit still for five seconds to let us see them.
I had the same reaction watching the Orville and I felt like on some level there was a conscious choice to make especially the bridge feel like a sitcom "room where characters have lines". My head canon is that McFarlane sold the Orville to Fox as "another successful comedy take on a genre", but had all the parts of a fully-functional Trek show stashed away under cushions and behind panels until after the executives saw the viewership numbers and gave a cautious thumbs-up - then wham, all the panels swivel around (not literally, I think we're stuck with sitcom-room-proportions bridge and Engineering for example) and it's the TNG reboot he actually wanted all along.
I have two points of evidence for this - the change in uniform badges from something the Kratt Brothers would wear to simple metal discs between s1 and s2, and one or two establishing shots that are looking in a window from outside the ship that are just 100% TNG-with-different-actors.
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yeah I don't think Gah is full of fibre.
Also he doesn't bathe.
He's angry cause he's a Klingon. He drinks prune juice because it is the beverage of a true warrior.
As we see in a couple of eps, most Klingons are much less uptight than Worf. It seems to be a combination of his upbringing (including an incident where he accidentally killed another boy during a soccer match, and made a solemn vow, etc, plus the whole "modeling himself on the propaganda and legends, not the reality" thing) and natural temperament.
Today is a good day to chiki briki
Minsk.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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I detested the guy about as much as anybody for the crap he's put on TV, but Orville turned me around on him so much that I don't even mind the crap anymore because it meant we get Orville now.
If nothing else, the guy clearly really really loves Star Trek.
Minsk.
Minsc
If it was just that he was a purveyor of fine packaged shit, like the guy who had invented Spencer's Gifts, I'd have a lot easier time with it. My problems with him are more along the lines of making misogyny affecting real women the butt of his live performance jokes, and then acting like that was him taking a brave stand instead of just... laughing at women who are forced to bow to the whims of more powerful white men in order to achieve something in their industry. Like ha ha, you showed your bewbs, thanks! I'm sure that has nothing to do with how men are never asked to give extensive penis bump shots in every film and no one would ever write a similar song about that because it would make no sense!
Maybe someday I'll stop being angry at his stupid, smug face, but today is not yet that day. If only he had cast someone else in the lead role.
Wait, what now?
This bit of his history was explained in DS9 during the worst episode, Let He Who Is Without Sin.
Considering how bad that episode is overall, I think we can strike it from the record.
The way he says "...Warrior's drink!" just slays me. Almost something a 10 year old would say, but that's not meant as an insult.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
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he's just glad he has to work late and miss dinner.