I picked up the Start Collecting Primaris Space Wolves box a while back because I needed Intercessors and wanted Aggressors, so now I have two Space Wolves upgrade sprues and their Primaris Battle Leader nos. If any of you Space Pups players want to trade something for them let me know.
I'm torn between building the Aggressors with the Boltstorm Gauntlets or with the Heavy Flamers.
The storyline of Death Guard versus T'au w/Shadowsun is awesome to me and I desperately want it elaborated on in-depth.
And
If you haven't read Severed and you also like Necrons, read Severed. It's a really good novella focusing on Vargard Obyron and his master, Zahndrekh. It was cheap and short, so I expected the worst, and was pleasantly surprised.
XBL: Bizazedo
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
I picked up the Start Collecting Primaris Space Wolves box a while back because I needed Intercessors and wanted Aggressors, so now I have two Space Wolves upgrade sprues and their Primaris Battle Leader nos. If any of you Space Pups players want to trade something for them let me know.
I'm torn between building the Aggressors with the Boltstorm Gauntlets or with the Heavy Flamers.
Yes please
I'm just on a break but I can pm you later Smoke, and we can barter.
Still I really thought it was going to be Necrons VS Ad mech with harlequins as one of the books. I am curious if they are going to do the harlequins in this series
I know people are raving about Rise of the beast will be a box set now they are saying engine war will be as well
It depends on what you play your wolves as Boltstorm as good all around flamers are good for swarms and in your face combat
And separately, part deux, I may need just the bit of a Necron Doom Scythe (the Death Ray underneath) for an upcoming tournament. Where does one locate such rarities?
Bizazedo on
XBL: Bizazedo
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
I'm actually a bit disappointed that the T'au reaction to the wider universe and the warp etc seems to be to become more like the imperium. Like in today's psychic awakening story.
I think those are 4th sphere expansion fleet troops. They went through the warp without gellar fields and while something implied to be a nascent warp god mostly protected the tau it didnt protect their alien axillary troops who mutated or were consumed. The tau survivors were noted to act with extreme hostility to all aliens, allied or otherwise and its a major point of concern for Shadowsun but she's too low on troops to bench them. They dont represent general attitudes.
It’s a little different to this.
According to the codex, the unknown entity protected everyone, but the auxiliaries became essentially cultists to it. It’s not the Tau that are causing the entity, they have an almost non-existant warp presence. The various races the Tau keep adding though? They very much do.
I'm actually a bit disappointed that the T'au reaction to the wider universe and the warp etc seems to be to become more like the imperium. Like in today's psychic awakening story.
I think those are 4th sphere expansion fleet troops. They went through the warp without gellar fields and while something implied to be a nascent warp god mostly protected the tau it didnt protect their alien axillary troops who mutated or were consumed. The tau survivors were noted to act with extreme hostility to all aliens, allied or otherwise and its a major point of concern for Shadowsun but she's too low on troops to bench them. They dont represent general attitudes.
It’s a little different to this.
According to the codex, the unknown entity protected everyone, but the auxiliaries became essentially cultists to it. It’s not the Tau that are causing the entity, they have an almost non-existant warp presence. The various races the Tau keep adding though? They very much do.
My favorite theory so far is that the tau are basically forming an anti chaos god, like some kind of logic god or whatever. They still have souls and what not but their uniquely rational view of technology and pragmatic doctrine are causing a new kind of effect on the immaterium. Its also why their have such a minor presence in the warp. Too sane. The newest addition to this theory being that the new logic god wants humans purged from the empire because theyll warp it into a standard chaos entity by virtue of being irredeemably superstitious.
Dunno how closely its supported but its a fun one.
The other one is that T'au have a very dispersed sense of self. You're your Caste first and then rank, earning an individual name once you've distinguished yourself. Whilst an Eldar is barely aware that you're another living thing in the room they're so self centred. So in the warp - the Eldar burn bright as a concentrated self, and in eons past were stable enough to manifest a new body and resurrect like a daemon can.
A Tau's sense of self is the same as the Eldar's, but there's so much overlap between nearby Tau that it's almost impossible to pick them out against the background. None of them have the self obsession/confidence that is required to actually manifest your will over that of the universe to make things as you think they should be, as a psyker can, or even be a bright mote on a dull field like a human mind might be. For a warp entity that feeds on increasingly granular concepts, it's hard to notice and difficult to get a bite out of such a large amorphous shape compared to something that will collapse into more manageable and discrete chunks of specific fears, goals, memories and values if pushed hard enough. Push a human mind enough, even in a Hive of them, and it'll start to fall to pieces. Trying to do the same to a T'au is like punching jelly- when things are most desperate and they panic, they think of the group, not their own fates.
But at the same time, they're not blanks, having a such an inwardly focused self that they push away other's perception of them and the universe enough to deny the psyker whilst making all social but merely latent psychic races uncomfortable. And definitely not the horrifyingly engineered Pariah who will not tolerate the concept of any mind other than their own (the kind of madman you thought you could use, but who gets in your head and twists your thinking against itself, whilst every fibre of your being is screaming at you to get away).
In the upcoming custodes codex I feel they are going to at least roll in the sisters of silence maybe more of the imperial agents like the assassins and inquisitors
I'm torn between building the Aggressors with the Boltstorm Gauntlets or with the Heavy Flamers.
Boltstorm gauntlets seem to be superior to flamers in almost every situation
Every time I've read a guide for an Imperium army in 8E, flamers are consistently described as inferior to comparable bolter options for pretty much any use case. To the point that the big vehicle flamers (ala Hellhounds and Immolators) seem to be the only time you want one (unless you've got some army special rule for them, like maybe Salamanders?). I forget the reasoning for why 8th apparently broke them, but there does seem to be a conventional wisdom that they just aren't as good as in past editions.
Looking specifically at the two Aggressor options, you have 6 + 1d6 bolter shots, or 2d6 flamer hits. With no other factors like rerolls, exploding sixes, etc. you're looking at an average of 6.3 hits at 18" of range v 7 hits at a 8" range (and a savings of 2 points) per Aggressor. So before looking at anything else there's a subtle trade-off between the two options. However once you start considering the other factors you'll see there's much less synergy to the Flamestorm gauntlets option. Adding reroll 1s to hit increases the boltstorm option to 7.33 hits average. Adding exploding 6s (like Imperial/Crimson Fists) adds another 1.5 ish (or 1.9 ish with rerolls) hits, and so on. Finally, if at any time you can take advantage of the longer range to not move and shoot twice, then you've pretty much handily beat the flamestorm gauntlets' expected damage output for the entirety of the game. The only situations where Flamestorm has an advantage are on overwatch (naturally) and against enemies stacking to-hit modifiers. Finally you have to look at the stratagem benefits. Imperial Fists for instance can stack Bolter Drill with their chapter tactic to put out even more dakka.
I'm sure there are some cases out there for Flamestorm, but that's going to depend on plenty of supporting rules & stratagems, and probably a lack of those for the boltstorm variety. I think Salamanders can make a case, but I don't remember if the FAQ neutered that option.
飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
+2
Options
H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
Looking specifically at the two Aggressor options, you have 6 + 1d6 bolter shots, or 2d6 flamer hits. With no other factors like rerolls, exploding sixes, etc. you're looking at an average of 6.3 hits at 18" of range v 7 hits at a 8" range (and a savings of 2 points) per Aggressor. So before looking at anything else there's a subtle trade-off between the two options. However once you start considering the other factors you'll see there's much less synergy to the Flamestorm gauntlets option. Adding reroll 1s to hit increases the boltstorm option to 7.33 hits average. Adding exploding 6s (like Imperial/Crimson Fists) adds another 1.5 ish (or 1.9 ish with rerolls) hits, and so on. Finally, if at any time you can take advantage of the longer range to not move and shoot twice, then you've pretty much handily beat the flamestorm gauntlets' expected damage output for the entirety of the game. The only situations where Flamestorm has an advantage are on overwatch (naturally) and against enemies stacking to-hit modifiers. Finally you have to look at the stratagem benefits. Imperial Fists for instance can stack Bolter Drill with their chapter tactic to put out even more dakka.
I'm sure there are some cases out there for Flamestorm, but that's going to depend on plenty of supporting rules & stratagems, and probably a lack of those for the boltstorm variety. I think Salamanders can make a case, but I don't remember if the FAQ neutered that option.
The salamanders strat that generated enough MW's to decimate a knight was neutered, but it's still dangerous to play against.
My buddy dumped an impulsor's (repulsor?) worth of flame agressors on my doorstep last game we played when I didn't quite kill their transport in time. The results were.... not good for me.
Combination of the below strats I think...
THE FIRES OF BATTLE
Salamanders Stratagem
Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase or in your
opponent’s Charge phase, when a SALAMANDERS model
from your army shoots with a flame or melta weapon (see
Codex: Space Marines). Until the end of that phase, when
resolving an attack made with that weapon, on an unmodified
wound roll of 4+ the target suffers 1 mortal wound in
addition to any normal damage.
and
FLAMECRAFT
Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase, when a
SALAMANDERS unit from your army is chosen to shoot with.
Until the end of that phase, when a model in that unit shoots
with a flame weapon (see Codex: Space Marines), do not roll
to determine the number of attacks made with that weapon;
instead, the maximum number of attacks are made with that
weapon (e.g. 6 attacks are made with a Heavy D6 weapon).
Well they cost more points, have a shorter range and do less damage than their various counterparts, so it's just cold, hard math that they suck.
Yes, but they used to work in a way that offset that right?
I've heard anecdotes that say it was much easier to average greater than 3.5 hits with the flamer template in 7th edition. I have no idea if the relative points costs between it and other special weapons changed relative to its killing potential in 8th.
飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
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Options
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
I love putting Aggressors with the bolters, Hellblasters, and Wulfen on the hunt in my Space Wolves lists. They always put some serious work in.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I love putting Aggressors with the bolters, Hellblasters, and Wulfen on the hunt in my Space Wolves lists. They always put some serious work in.
My brother does a hunting party
Blood claws and/or intercessor primaris tons of wolves and aggressors
It's something he found out by accident in kill team that worked that he tried out in 40k with different options. He has done bikes and land speeders as well
But he found doing jump pack blood claws with the wolves is sure to mess up a lot of armies
I love putting Aggressors with the bolters, Hellblasters, and Wulfen on the hunt in my Space Wolves lists. They always put some serious work in.
My brother does a hunting party
Blood claws and/or intercessor primaris tons of wolves and aggressors
It's something he found out by accident in kill team that worked that he tried out in 40k with different options. He has done bikes and land speeders as well
But he found doing jump pack blood claws with the wolves is sure to mess up a lot of armies
Can't only infantry be put on the hunt?
Weirdly I always thought thunderwolves cavalry had the infantry keyword but I double checked because bikes don't and neither do thunderwolves. Kind of a bummer.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I love putting Aggressors with the bolters, Hellblasters, and Wulfen on the hunt in my Space Wolves lists. They always put some serious work in.
My brother does a hunting party
Blood claws and/or intercessor primaris tons of wolves and aggressors
It's something he found out by accident in kill team that worked that he tried out in 40k with different options. He has done bikes and land speeders as well
But he found doing jump pack blood claws with the wolves is sure to mess up a lot of armies
Can't only infantry be put on the hunt?
Weirdly I always thought thunderwolves cavalry had the infantry keyword but I double checked because bikes don't and neither do thunderwolves. Kind of a bummer.
VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Am getting tempted by Sisters but I do hate the super drab color schemes for all of the Orders. If I take the plunge, will likely do them in orange armor with turqoise cloaks.
Am getting tempted by Sisters but I do hate the super drab color schemes for all of the Orders. If I take the plunge, will likely do them in orange armor with turqoise cloaks.
I've found a place still selling the box set at a dirt cheap price and I'm wavering hard on picking it up.
Pros: It's a really good deal, I love most of the models, they look fun as hell to paint.
Cons: There's a good chance I won't wind up ever using them in-game and if I wanted a full Sisters army it'd wind up being a lot more money.
I love putting Aggressors with the bolters, Hellblasters, and Wulfen on the hunt in my Space Wolves lists. They always put some serious work in.
My brother does a hunting party
Blood claws and/or intercessor primaris tons of wolves and aggressors
It's something he found out by accident in kill team that worked that he tried out in 40k with different options. He has done bikes and land speeders as well
But he found doing jump pack blood claws with the wolves is sure to mess up a lot of armies
Can't only infantry be put on the hunt?
Weirdly I always thought thunderwolves cavalry had the infantry keyword but I double checked because bikes don't and neither do thunderwolves. Kind of a bummer.
It's the wolf packs he uses not thunderwolves
Do you mean fenrisian wolves? Cause they aren't infantry either.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Markerlights aren't hard to come by, the big problem is the Crisis Suits are too fragile, T5 3W 3+ doesn't last against current shooting. I run a big unit in my Tau army because it's Farsight Enclaves so of course I am, but I have to devote a really disproportionate number of shield drones to them, and honestly should just run more Riptides in their place.
But for "only" 4 CP you can make FSE Crisis Suits hit on a 2+ the turn they drop in, completely without support, so I guess that's pretty neat.
I love putting Aggressors with the bolters, Hellblasters, and Wulfen on the hunt in my Space Wolves lists. They always put some serious work in.
My brother does a hunting party
Blood claws and/or intercessor primaris tons of wolves and aggressors
It's something he found out by accident in kill team that worked that he tried out in 40k with different options. He has done bikes and land speeders as well
But he found doing jump pack blood claws with the wolves is sure to mess up a lot of armies
Can't only infantry be put on the hunt?
Weirdly I always thought thunderwolves cavalry had the infantry keyword but I double checked because bikes don't and neither do thunderwolves. Kind of a bummer.
It's the wolf packs he uses not thunderwolves
Do you mean fenrisian wolves? Cause they aren't infantry either.
I know you have pickles and/or blood claws with wolf packs taking 10 or 15 in each group
We are only playing smaller games like stepped up kill team games since I only have a 1m square table to play on
Markerlights aren't hard to come by, the big problem is the Crisis Suits are too fragile, T5 3W 3+ doesn't last against current shooting. I run a big unit in my Tau army because it's Farsight Enclaves so of course I am, but I have to devote a really disproportionate number of shield drones to them, and honestly should just run more Riptides in their place.
But for "only" 4 CP you can make FSE Crisis Suits hit on a 2+ the turn they drop in, completely without support, so I guess that's pretty neat.
Low surviability is a complaint that I hear about almost every unit in the game (with the notable exception of the Iron Hands Dread Leviathan). I think that’s just the intended design of 8th edition. Now my understanding of the t'opic is that Crisis suits are inferior elite choices compared to Riptides because of their damage output with respect to cost, so that they trade poorly. Their weapons that they share with BS2 commanders are a bit overpriced on their BS4 chassis, so in that regard maybe the new stratagem will let them see some use to murder a priority t’arget each turn with CP available.
That being said there may be plenty of new t’actics that benefit Riptides as much or more than Crisis suits keeping them stuck in the lower t’ier.
Markerlights aren't hard to come by, the big problem is the Crisis Suits are too fragile, T5 3W 3+ doesn't last against current shooting. I run a big unit in my Tau army because it's Farsight Enclaves so of course I am, but I have to devote a really disproportionate number of shield drones to them, and honestly should just run more Riptides in their place.
But for "only" 4 CP you can make FSE Crisis Suits hit on a 2+ the turn they drop in, completely without support, so I guess that's pretty neat.
Low surviability is a complaint that I hear about almost every unit in the game (with the notable exception of the Iron Hands Dread Leviathan). I think that’s just the intended design of 8th edition. Now my understanding of the t'opic is that Crisis suits are inferior elite choices compared to Riptides because of their damage output with respect to cost, so that they trade poorly. Their weapons that they share with BS2 commanders are a bit overpriced on their BS4 chassis, so in that regard maybe the new stratagem will let them see some use to murder a priority t’arget each turn with CP available.
That being said there may be plenty of new t’actics that benefit Riptides as much or more than Crisis suits keeping them stuck in the lower t’ier.
It’s a shame that crisis battle suits lost their move after shooting ability (aside from the relic). It would be nice to have some niche ability compared to the other tau choices to make them appealing. As it is, they are competing with a bunch of other things.
The strat to get 5 marker lights on a unit they pick is nice though. 3+ rerolling 1’s, no cover save. It can be rough for Tau trying to hit things that stick negative to hit modifiers.
Posts
I'm torn between building the Aggressors with the Boltstorm Gauntlets or with the Heavy Flamers.
The storyline of Death Guard versus T'au w/Shadowsun is awesome to me and I desperately want it elaborated on in-depth.
And
If you haven't read Severed and you also like Necrons, read Severed. It's a really good novella focusing on Vargard Obyron and his master, Zahndrekh. It was cheap and short, so I expected the worst, and was pleasantly surprised.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Yes please
I'm just on a break but I can pm you later Smoke, and we can barter.
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
I know people are raving about Rise of the beast will be a box set now they are saying engine war will be as well
It depends on what you play your wolves as Boltstorm as good all around flamers are good for swarms and in your face combat
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Rad.
Speaking of upgrade kits, do Aggressor shoulderpads fit on Terminators?
THe shoulderpads from across all the kits fit each other
It’s a little different to this.
According to the codex, the unknown entity protected everyone, but the auxiliaries became essentially cultists to it. It’s not the Tau that are causing the entity, they have an almost non-existant warp presence. The various races the Tau keep adding though? They very much do.
My favorite theory so far is that the tau are basically forming an anti chaos god, like some kind of logic god or whatever. They still have souls and what not but their uniquely rational view of technology and pragmatic doctrine are causing a new kind of effect on the immaterium. Its also why their have such a minor presence in the warp. Too sane. The newest addition to this theory being that the new logic god wants humans purged from the empire because theyll warp it into a standard chaos entity by virtue of being irredeemably superstitious.
Dunno how closely its supported but its a fun one.
A Tau's sense of self is the same as the Eldar's, but there's so much overlap between nearby Tau that it's almost impossible to pick them out against the background. None of them have the self obsession/confidence that is required to actually manifest your will over that of the universe to make things as you think they should be, as a psyker can, or even be a bright mote on a dull field like a human mind might be. For a warp entity that feeds on increasingly granular concepts, it's hard to notice and difficult to get a bite out of such a large amorphous shape compared to something that will collapse into more manageable and discrete chunks of specific fears, goals, memories and values if pushed hard enough. Push a human mind enough, even in a Hive of them, and it'll start to fall to pieces. Trying to do the same to a T'au is like punching jelly- when things are most desperate and they panic, they think of the group, not their own fates.
But at the same time, they're not blanks, having a such an inwardly focused self that they push away other's perception of them and the universe enough to deny the psyker whilst making all social but merely latent psychic races uncomfortable. And definitely not the horrifyingly engineered Pariah who will not tolerate the concept of any mind other than their own (the kind of madman you thought you could use, but who gets in your head and twists your thinking against itself, whilst every fibre of your being is screaming at you to get away).
Boltstorm gauntlets seem to be superior to flamers in almost every situation
Every time I've read a guide for an Imperium army in 8E, flamers are consistently described as inferior to comparable bolter options for pretty much any use case. To the point that the big vehicle flamers (ala Hellhounds and Immolators) seem to be the only time you want one (unless you've got some army special rule for them, like maybe Salamanders?). I forget the reasoning for why 8th apparently broke them, but there does seem to be a conventional wisdom that they just aren't as good as in past editions.
I'm sure there are some cases out there for Flamestorm, but that's going to depend on plenty of supporting rules & stratagems, and probably a lack of those for the boltstorm variety. I think Salamanders can make a case, but I don't remember if the FAQ neutered that option.
Yes, but they used to work in a way that offset that right?
The salamanders strat that generated enough MW's to decimate a knight was neutered, but it's still dangerous to play against.
My buddy dumped an impulsor's (repulsor?) worth of flame agressors on my doorstep last game we played when I didn't quite kill their transport in time. The results were.... not good for me.
Combination of the below strats I think...
THE FIRES OF BATTLE
Salamanders Stratagem
Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase or in your
opponent’s Charge phase, when a SALAMANDERS model
from your army shoots with a flame or melta weapon (see
Codex: Space Marines). Until the end of that phase, when
resolving an attack made with that weapon, on an unmodified
wound roll of 4+ the target suffers 1 mortal wound in
addition to any normal damage.
and
FLAMECRAFT
Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase, when a
SALAMANDERS unit from your army is chosen to shoot with.
Until the end of that phase, when a model in that unit shoots
with a flame weapon (see Codex: Space Marines), do not roll
to determine the number of attacks made with that weapon;
instead, the maximum number of attacks are made with that
weapon (e.g. 6 attacks are made with a Heavy D6 weapon).
I think that's how it works anyway.
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
I've heard anecdotes that say it was much easier to average greater than 3.5 hits with the flamer template in 7th edition. I have no idea if the relative points costs between it and other special weapons changed relative to its killing potential in 8th.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
My brother does a hunting party
Blood claws and/or intercessor primaris tons of wolves and aggressors
It's something he found out by accident in kill team that worked that he tried out in 40k with different options. He has done bikes and land speeders as well
But he found doing jump pack blood claws with the wolves is sure to mess up a lot of armies
They're really good in Necromunda, no idea about 40k :P
Can't only infantry be put on the hunt?
Weirdly I always thought thunderwolves cavalry had the infantry keyword but I double checked because bikes don't and neither do thunderwolves. Kind of a bummer.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
It's the wolf packs he uses not thunderwolves
Waves at Celestine
I've found a place still selling the box set at a dirt cheap price and I'm wavering hard on picking it up.
Pros: It's a really good deal, I love most of the models, they look fun as hell to paint.
Cons: There's a good chance I won't wind up ever using them in-game and if I wanted a full Sisters army it'd wind up being a lot more money.
Do you mean fenrisian wolves? Cause they aren't infantry either.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
This might make crisis suits worth another look
But for "only" 4 CP you can make FSE Crisis Suits hit on a 2+ the turn they drop in, completely without support, so I guess that's pretty neat.
I know you have pickles and/or blood claws with wolf packs taking 10 or 15 in each group
We are only playing smaller games like stepped up kill team games since I only have a 1m square table to play on
Low surviability is a complaint that I hear about almost every unit in the game (with the notable exception of the Iron Hands Dread Leviathan). I think that’s just the intended design of 8th edition. Now my understanding of the t'opic is that Crisis suits are inferior elite choices compared to Riptides because of their damage output with respect to cost, so that they trade poorly. Their weapons that they share with BS2 commanders are a bit overpriced on their BS4 chassis, so in that regard maybe the new stratagem will let them see some use to murder a priority t’arget each turn with CP available.
That being said there may be plenty of new t’actics that benefit Riptides as much or more than Crisis suits keeping them stuck in the lower t’ier.
Well done
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
The strat to get 5 marker lights on a unit they pick is nice though. 3+ rerolling 1’s, no cover save. It can be rough for Tau trying to hit things that stick negative to hit modifiers.
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2020/02/02/lvo-by-the-numbers/
Aka Marines win. A lot.
Average first round lost.(1.9 would be normal if a list has a 50/50 chance to win)