Biden needed to give a decent speech last night, and I think it was a great one. I can't imagine Trump or anyone at the RNC matching it. I am interested to see the format for the RNC convention Considering all that has gone on, this virtual convention went pretty smoothly, and I wouldn't be opposed to doing a virtual roll call from the states every year. I really enjoyed seeing a small snapshot of every state and the voters.
Frankly, I want every convention after this to be virtual. No need to waste all that money and jet fuel.
Just for the love of god, get rid of zoom clapping. I'm cool with the actual acceptance speech having an audience, but... my ears still hurt after the audio problems with the zoom clapping last night.
I like the idea of the zoom clapping. I'm really surprised that they pulled it off as well as they did. It didn't particularly work, but that's hindsight speaking.
I loved the fireworks / horns / flashing lights in the parking lot after Biden's speech. I wouldn't want it to become a regular thing because I don't think it works more than once but that once was pretty cool.
Overall I think the Dem Convention was extremely well put together and the Republicans have a very high bar to clear. The GOP of 15 years ago could probably do it. The GOP of 2020? Not a chance.
The 2016 GOP convention was already a huge clusterfuck that barely worked. Now, with Trump and all his sycophants running it and the "adults" that ran the RNC in 2016 being shoved out the door? It's going to be a tire fire on top of a dumpster fire on top of an airplane wreckage all buried beneath a forest fire that's also raging through the storm from The Perfect Storm.
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
Also my thing about him getting angry was just a comment on how a black or female candidate would get roasted by the press for justifiable, relatable anger, not an assertion that Biden was feigning anger for effect
I got into my FIL’s liquor cabinet tonight, apologies
What kind? I was sipping on some scotch myself.
Yep! So my FIL is a retired surgeon, former republican, Biden-supporter with a second home in Coronado that I’m staying in to test drive living in Cali while working my job based on Ohio...
I figured, given tonight’s circumstances, he’d be fine with me dipping into the Macallan 18 in the cabinet here...
As long as you are mixing it with like real Coke and not Sam's club cola or some off-brand I'm sure he is fine with it.
(J/I, sounds v. tasty, I'm getting a Blantons to save for election night to either finish in celebration, mourning, or most likely suspense)
I know this is from a few pages back but mixing Macallan 18 with cola, any kind of cola, is a war crime and I've informed The Hague
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
Yes, it's your burden as a citizen
Sorry that democracy is hard
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Wait a sec. The convention does serve an actual purpose, one of which is to formally nominate their candidate. These days it is very routine, but there is a small but non zero chance that the Trump RNC manages to fuck even that up.
So, that's my prediction for next week. In their incompetence they actually fail to make Trump their candidate.
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
The minute white supremacy stops being the major platform of a major political party.
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
Yes. Life is compromise. Literally any candidate would be a compromise because they won't match all your values and positions and experiences. And unless you plan on finding some magic perfect person, everyone is some degree of evil including you. You will never be able to vote for someone without evil and pretending otherwise is beyond utopianism.
More specifically if your positions are so far outside the mainstream that you view Biden as 'diet evil' comparable to Trump's evil then adopting your positions would be so anti-democratic that doing so itself would be a moral evil. How staggeringly arrogant to presume your political will should trump the vast majority of the citizenry. So you might as well embrace the actions that promote administrations that are "less evil".
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
I mean, yes? It's a democracy. You don't always get what you want. Biden was not my first choice. Or second choice. Or even third choice. But he's the choice we got. Work on changing the party from the ground up. Volunteer with your local party, convince your friends and family the more progressive option in any local race is better. Hell, run for something yourself.
But in a democratic society you don't always win what you want.
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
Yes. Life is compromise. Literally any candidate would be a compromise because they won't match all your values and positions and experiences. And unless you plan on finding some magic perfect person, everyone is some degree of evil including you. You will never be able to vote for someone without evil and pretending otherwise is beyond utopianism.
More specifically if your positions are so far outside the mainstream that you view Biden as 'diet evil' comparable to Trump's evil then adopting your positions would be so anti-democratic that doing so itself would be a moral evil. How staggeringly arrogant to presume your political will should trump the vast majority of the citizenry. So you might as well embrace the actions that promote administrations that are "less evil".
Just so we're clear, in response to me questioning the dissolution of my autonomy as a democratic actor, I am evil and anti-democratic?
I just want us to be accurate with the political resume we're throwing on me for expressing my disdain for a lack of true autonomy.
By voting for Biden you actually reduce the chance of getting someone you do want to vote for, though. Biden does not know you voted for him under the duress of "I guess you aren't a fascist even though you do love a blatantly nationalist and imperialist country and have at times supported the same kind of policies that the guys who are fascists also supported" does he. Voting for him creates no incentive for him to move left, he already has your vote.
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
I mean, yes? It's a democracy. You don't always get what you want. Biden was not my first choice. Or second choice. Or even third choice. But he's the choice we got. Work on changing the party from the ground up. Volunteer with your local party, convince your friends and family the more progressive option in any local race is better. Hell, run for something yourself.
But in a democratic society you don't always win what you want.
We actually did a poll on this during the primaries. Biden came in 3rd, behind Warren and Sanders. At like 1-2%. Odds are literally everyone you are talking to here didn't want Biden and is supporting him as a compromise vs the platform and candidate they actually wanted.
Only one person gets to be the nominee. And even that person's supporters probably have issues with their candidate. That's just how it works.
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Dyshow am I even using this gunRegistered Userregular
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
To those folks, I'll say this. Ideals, conscience, are important. We're seeing now what happens when government abandons those things. I understand if your ideals make Joe Biden unpalatable or even anathema to you. But.
Your ideals aren't worth my life.
At least 170,000 people have died because of Trump. More will follow no matter what we do. But if he wins, you know that it will get worse. You know who will suffer the most. So I'm begging you, with tears in my eyes, to stop pretending this is about you. Stop pretending that this is philosophical, because it's real. Care less about what your vote says about you and care more about the lives it can save.
It's morally repugnant to ask someone to vote against their conscience, but ask where your conscience lies. Do you care more about your ideals than people's lives? If your answer is the former, understand that choice comes with a price and you might not be the one who has to pay it. If it's the latter, then you know what you have to do.
Either way, we have nothing further to discuss.
To be honest, I don't think this is a thing about individual votes and how folks think their vote is going to reflect on them.
I'm pretty sure that both sides of this discussion view Biden as what needs to happen as the next step forward. The two sides, however, are one set of people looking at the necessity of it while maintaining a bit of optimism, and the other not wanting lose the necessary criticism of how their leaders act.
And to be honest I don't think anybody is overtly in the wrong, here.
Those looking at the necessity and being hopeful are being put off by the criticism, and are maybe worrying that going too strong with it might start to do more harm than good. The folks wanting to criticize and consistently push for better are seeing the optimism and statements on necessity and worrying that the people we are electing will proceed to do some shady stuff and take advantage of that.
As someone who's on the criticism side, I have to say; I understand the need to get rid of Trump. I am one hundred percent with you on that, and I'm pretty sure other folks are as well. The necessity of electing Biden is absolutely recognized, and the optimism is appreciated because goodness knows that's something everyone wishes they had.
I assure you there isn't any kind of movement being pushed of mass write-ups for Bernie or AOC anything. I just ask that, provided we get Biden in the white house, you join in on calling the Democrats out on stuff they do wrong after that. And while he is getting my vote, I also ask please not to judge folks who legitimately cannot bring themselves to cast that vote for Biden.
The centrist are always going to be somewhat less nightmarish than the fascists and the political elite that form the majority of Democrat trend towards centrism, therefore you're basically just going to get centrist Dems as an option forever because they know you have no choice, until you are able to leverage support to force them to move left.
The only leverage you have is your vote so by casting it in support of a centrist you're basically throwing your influence away. You're caving instantly.
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
Yes. Life is compromise. Literally any candidate would be a compromise because they won't match all your values and positions and experiences. And unless you plan on finding some magic perfect person, everyone is some degree of evil including you. You will never be able to vote for someone without evil and pretending otherwise is beyond utopianism.
More specifically if your positions are so far outside the mainstream that you view Biden as 'diet evil' comparable to Trump's evil then adopting your positions would be so anti-democratic that doing so itself would be a moral evil. How staggeringly arrogant to presume your political will should trump the vast majority of the citizenry. So you might as well embrace the actions that promote administrations that are "less evil".
Just so we're clear, in response to me questioning the dissolution of my autonomy as a democratic actor, I am evil and anti-democratic?
I just want us to be accurate with the political resume we're throwing on me for expressing my disdain for a lack of true autonomy.
It is the height of arrogance yes. You think that you are the one being held hostage but the counter case would be to project your will onto the polity instead. It is a deeply undemocratic and incredibly arrogant position.
You will also die someday; "true autonomy" is nonsense and fictional.
By voting for Biden you actually reduce the chance of getting someone you do want to vote for, though. Biden does not know you voted for him under the duress of "I guess you aren't a fascist even though you do love a blatantly nationalist and imperialist country and have at times supported the same kind of policies that the guys who are fascists also supported" does he. Voting for him creates no incentive for him to move left, he already has your vote.
Nah, this is demonstratively wrong. We've literally seen Biden move left since the primary. Because politicians respond to pressure from their constituencies.
+27
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SixCaches Tweets in the mainframe cyberhexRegistered Userregular
I just ask that, provided we get Biden in the white house, you join in on calling the Democrats out on stuff they do wrong after that. And while he is getting my vote, I also ask please not to judge folks who legitimately cannot bring themselves to cast that vote for Biden.
I will absolutely judge anyone who does not cast a vote for Biden. While it’s their prerogative to exercise that freedom, it’s also mine to judge them for it.
By voting for Biden you actually reduce the chance of getting someone you do want to vote for, though. Biden does not know you voted for him under the duress of "I guess you aren't a fascist even though you do love a blatantly nationalist and imperialist country and have at times supported the same kind of policies that the guys who are fascists also supported" does he. Voting for him creates no incentive for him to move left, he already has your vote.
You could say the same about not voting for him though. That's why I think most here would agree that the primary is the place for such process and argument to play out
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
If you're so far to the left that you see the entire structure as evil and both sides are the same and no change except radical structural overhaul or maybe even a revolution will fix it?
Yes. If you feel like "doing what's better for most people even though it's not what you believe to be the best even a very good solution" is losing your autonomy, then yes. Your sense of autonomy is miscalibrated and that should probably get adjusted but in the meantime, yes. Within that frame, yes.
You have to vote for the lesser evil all the time, obviously, since your frame considers all the choices evil and one of them is less so.
The centrist are always going to be somewhat less nightmarish than the fascists and the political elite that form the majority of Democrat trend towards centrism, therefore you're basically just going to get centrist Dems as an option forever because they know you have no choice, until you are able to leverage support to force them to move left.
The only leverage you have is your vote so by casting it in support of a centrist you're basically throwing your influence away. You're caving instantly.
By voting for Biden you actually reduce the chance of getting someone you do want to vote for, though. Biden does not know you voted for him under the duress of "I guess you aren't a fascist even though you do love a blatantly nationalist and imperialist country and have at times supported the same kind of policies that the guys who are fascists also supported" does he. Voting for him creates no incentive for him to move left, he already has your vote.
You could say the same about not voting for him though. That's why I think most here would agree that the primary is the place for such process and argument to play out
If you don't vote for him then he actually has to think about how he's going to win your vote. If you do then he's got it and he doesn't.
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
Yes. Life is compromise. Literally any candidate would be a compromise because they won't match all your values and positions and experiences. And unless you plan on finding some magic perfect person, everyone is some degree of evil including you. You will never be able to vote for someone without evil and pretending otherwise is beyond utopianism.
More specifically if your positions are so far outside the mainstream that you view Biden as 'diet evil' comparable to Trump's evil then adopting your positions would be so anti-democratic that doing so itself would be a moral evil. How staggeringly arrogant to presume your political will should trump the vast majority of the citizenry. So you might as well embrace the actions that promote administrations that are "less evil".
Just so we're clear, in response to me questioning the dissolution of my autonomy as a democratic actor, I am evil and anti-democratic?
I just want us to be accurate with the political resume we're throwing on me for expressing my disdain for a lack of true autonomy.
You are being more than a bit of a silly goose by trying to act like just because you don't get exactly the person you want that it's some sort of great burden upon you specifically.
This is how democracy works, for everybody. Fuckin' deal with it. Or, if you choose to, don't vote. But then be so kind as to complain only to yourself, because you've done nothing to even try to make things better.
I've already lived through wide swaths of the left arguing that there's no difference in candidates twice - and George W Bush and Trump got elected. There's no goddamn way that I have the patience to treat this both sides nonsense as legitimate a third time.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
+43
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SurfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
I feel like maybe if you want people to vote for Biden it could be more effective to just tell them yeah, that's valid and then drop it rather than spending pages explaining very basic concepts for the hundredth time and making them dig their heels in even harder when you inevitably say something disagreeable.
By voting for Biden you actually reduce the chance of getting someone you do want to vote for, though. Biden does not know you voted for him under the duress of "I guess you aren't a fascist even though you do love a blatantly nationalist and imperialist country and have at times supported the same kind of policies that the guys who are fascists also supported" does he. Voting for him creates no incentive for him to move left, he already has your vote.
You could say the same about not voting for him though. That's why I think most here would agree that the primary is the place for such process and argument to play out
If you don't vote for him then he actually has to think about how he's going to win your vote. If you do then he's got it and he doesn't.
But as in what you say if you vote for him how is he to know that your vote is for that purpose and not just part of the electorate that doesn't pay attention/doesn't vote/whatever? Hence why the primary is a good place to show that
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
There was a primary where we chose a candidate to represent us
Then there will be the midterms, and another presidential election, where there will be another primary where *checks notes* noted “diet-evil” joe Biden will probably not be running.
You’re also acting like the presidential election is the only one occurring in 2020 which is precisely the kind of thinking that got the Democratic Party where it is right now
The primary for 2020 is over but the battle for the heart and soul of the party is just beginning.
So yes, I absolutely don’t care if the person the majority of our party picked makes you feel bad. Save the republic while you still can. Calling the best hope we have to defeat trump evil 3 months before the election doesn’t help your cause
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
To those folks, I'll say this. Ideals, conscience, are important. We're seeing now what happens when government abandons those things. I understand if your ideals make Joe Biden unpalatable or even anathema to you. But.
Your ideals aren't worth my life.
At least 170,000 people have died because of Trump. More will follow no matter what we do. But if he wins, you know that it will get worse. You know who will suffer the most. So I'm begging you, with tears in my eyes, to stop pretending this is about you. Stop pretending that this is philosophical, because it's real. Care less about what your vote says about you and care more about the lives it can save.
It's morally repugnant to ask someone to vote against their conscience, but ask where your conscience lies. Do you care more about your ideals than people's lives? If your answer is the former, understand that choice comes with a price and you might not be the one who has to pay it. If it's the latter, then you know what you have to do.
Either way, we have nothing further to discuss.
To be honest, I don't think this is a thing about individual votes and how folks think their vote is going to reflect on them.
I'm pretty sure that both sides of this discussion view Biden as what needs to happen as the next step forward. The two sides, however, are one set of people looking at the necessity of it while maintaining a bit of optimism, and the other not wanting lose the necessary criticism of how their leaders act.
And to be honest I don't think anybody is overtly in the wrong, here.
Those looking at the necessity and being hopeful are being put off by the criticism, and are maybe worrying that going too strong with it might start to do more harm than good. The folks wanting to criticize and consistently push for better are seeing the optimism and statements on necessity and worrying that the people we are electing will proceed to do some shady stuff and take advantage of that.
As someone who's on the criticism side, I have to say; I understand the need to get rid of Trump. I am one hundred percent with you on that, and I'm pretty sure other folks are as well. The necessity of electing Biden is absolutely recognized, and the optimism is appreciated because goodness knows that's something everyone wishes they had.
I assure you there isn't any kind of movement being pushed of mass write-ups for Bernie or AOC anything. I just ask that, provided we get Biden in the white house, you join in on calling the Democrats out on stuff they do wrong after that. And while he is getting my vote, I also ask please not to judge folks who legitimately cannot bring themselves to cast that vote for Biden.
I feel like I threw gasoline on the fire yesterday. Thank you for being better.
By voting for Biden you actually reduce the chance of getting someone you do want to vote for, though. Biden does not know you voted for him under the duress of "I guess you aren't a fascist even though you do love a blatantly nationalist and imperialist country and have at times supported the same kind of policies that the guys who are fascists also supported" does he. Voting for him creates no incentive for him to move left, he already has your vote.
You could say the same about not voting for him though. That's why I think most here would agree that the primary is the place for such process and argument to play out
If you don't vote for him then he actually has to think about how he's going to win your vote. If you do then he's got it and he doesn't.
This is just wrong. All it communicates is you are unreliable and shouldn't be catered to. And they are quite open about that. If not voting was the way to get your issues addressed the elderly would be ignored and the young catered to.
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
I want to add to this some, and hopefully you won't object at the end. I have been told a lot about how Trump is this great evil, and all these people are dying. How can I not be moved? Because I, and many like me, have grown up waiting for this shit to happen. And to be entirely honest, I never knew which political party would be the ones to do it.
You see, I am part of a community that is at best treated as an ally of convenience. Actually delivering better conditions for me and mine is never a top goal. In fact, it isn't even really talked about outside of election time when we become so important to help. Because who knows what the evil others will do! Except, neither side wants to do shit in the end. We are cast off in the name of political expedience. We are expected to understand that it's just not the right time. We will circle back when there is more political will for it. Only, that part never seems to happen.
I will spare you the listing of offenses because honestly I don't think there is much point to it. People rarely hear my pleas for what they are, and getting bogged down in minutia will only end in nasty, bitter, spiteful posts from others as well as myself most likely. There is a reason I am not trusting Lucy with that football though. I know 2/3rds of the promises get worked on, but it's funny how often my ability to be a real fucking person under the law keeps ending up in that last third.
So you tell me know thousands will die? Americans will get treated like dirt? People will be stripped of their rights? That is the USA I have lived in my whole life. It's not that I don't care as much as I am just numb. I also have watched time and again as those meant to help us quickly forget we exist the second they can manage it.
I am really glad some of you still believe that there is a better world out there. I am happy so many of you got to live in it. Until you have lived in mine though don't come and judge me for how I act now. Once you see the world from my view you also might have a much different view of our political landscape. You might even see why it is so important to some of us to fight for something better, because with things as they are I still see thousands suffering and dying. They just look as sympathetic on the nightly news.
Specifically not voting is just as much a political action as voting.
No it's the complete opposite. You know why candidates tend to throw so many bones to the old people and virtually none to young people? It's because the old people vote and vote constantly and young people don't.
Like what you just said is the complete opposite of actual reality.
Surely the 100th time you try the 'yell for several pages' method of voter persuasion it will work better
This is debate and discourse not fawn and cajole. Sometimes the truth is better than dishonestly pretending a position isn't goosey in an attempt to get them to moderate it.
Surely the 100th time you try the 'yell for several pages' method of voter persuasion it will work better
This is debate and discourse not fawn and cajole. Sometimes the truth is better than dishonestly pretending a position isn't goosey in an attempt to get them to moderate it.
right right facts don't care about your opinions etc
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SixCaches Tweets in the mainframe cyberhexRegistered Userregular
Surely the 100th time you try the 'yell for several pages' method of voter persuasion it will work better
I don’t think anyone here is going to persuaded to vote one way or the other. Anyone spending time reading and posting here knows how or if they’ll vote. It’s a forum for debate and discourse.
I know some folks just plain don't like Biden, they feel like voting for him would betray some part of themselves. I can only imagine what that must feel like. But please understand, if Trump wins this thing we may never get a chance to vote for someone better than Biden. I don't think it's hyperbole to say our democracy is very near to death. Trump is a cancer. Your vote is a scalpel. Please help us cut this cancer out.
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
Yes. Life is compromise. Literally any candidate would be a compromise because they won't match all your values and positions and experiences. And unless you plan on finding some magic perfect person, everyone is some degree of evil including you. You will never be able to vote for someone without evil and pretending otherwise is beyond utopianism.
More specifically if your positions are so far outside the mainstream that you view Biden as 'diet evil' comparable to Trump's evil then adopting your positions would be so anti-democratic that doing so itself would be a moral evil. How staggeringly arrogant to presume your political will should trump the vast majority of the citizenry. So you might as well embrace the actions that promote administrations that are "less evil".
Just so we're clear, in response to me questioning the dissolution of my autonomy as a democratic actor, I am evil and anti-democratic?
I just want us to be accurate with the political resume we're throwing on me for expressing my disdain for a lack of true autonomy.
It is the height of arrogance yes. You think that you are the one being held hostage but the counter case would be to project your will onto the polity instead. It is a deeply undemocratic and incredibly arrogant position.
You will also die someday; "true autonomy" is nonsense and fictional.
You're making a truly compelling case for any political engagement within the system.
"Disregard your convictions and vote for the guy that just wants to shoot you in the leg" is a sales pitch you may want to rework in the office.
Seriously, if this argument is that I, as a political agent in a democratic republic, have no real sense of autonomy and must vote for who this collective demands, what sense of freedom do I truly have in relation to the president elect? You can keep hurling claims of me being undemocratic, but you insults of arrogance and demands of one-street voting send a very similar message.
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The 2016 GOP convention was already a huge clusterfuck that barely worked. Now, with Trump and all his sycophants running it and the "adults" that ran the RNC in 2016 being shoved out the door? It's going to be a tire fire on top of a dumpster fire on top of an airplane wreckage all buried beneath a forest fire that's also raging through the storm from The Perfect Storm.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Till the next time, right?
Till the next presidential election when the right run another cartoon villain, right?
Can I ask, when do I get released from this hostage situation as a voter?
Is my sense of autonomy always going to be compromised and over-ridden due to the necessity to vote for diet-evil over ultra-evil?
I know this is from a few pages back but mixing Macallan 18 with cola, any kind of cola, is a war crime and I've informed The Hague
Yes, it's your burden as a citizen
Sorry that democracy is hard
So, that's my prediction for next week. In their incompetence they actually fail to make Trump their candidate.
The minute white supremacy stops being the major platform of a major political party.
I nearly drank enough to forget last night and also passed out and missed the last 150 posts or so, so it was very very worth it
Yes. Life is compromise. Literally any candidate would be a compromise because they won't match all your values and positions and experiences. And unless you plan on finding some magic perfect person, everyone is some degree of evil including you. You will never be able to vote for someone without evil and pretending otherwise is beyond utopianism.
More specifically if your positions are so far outside the mainstream that you view Biden as 'diet evil' comparable to Trump's evil then adopting your positions would be so anti-democratic that doing so itself would be a moral evil. How staggeringly arrogant to presume your political will should trump the vast majority of the citizenry. So you might as well embrace the actions that promote administrations that are "less evil".
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I mean, yes? It's a democracy. You don't always get what you want. Biden was not my first choice. Or second choice. Or even third choice. But he's the choice we got. Work on changing the party from the ground up. Volunteer with your local party, convince your friends and family the more progressive option in any local race is better. Hell, run for something yourself.
But in a democratic society you don't always win what you want.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Just so we're clear, in response to me questioning the dissolution of my autonomy as a democratic actor, I am evil and anti-democratic?
I just want us to be accurate with the political resume we're throwing on me for expressing my disdain for a lack of true autonomy.
We actually did a poll on this during the primaries. Biden came in 3rd, behind Warren and Sanders. At like 1-2%. Odds are literally everyone you are talking to here didn't want Biden and is supporting him as a compromise vs the platform and candidate they actually wanted.
Only one person gets to be the nominee. And even that person's supporters probably have issues with their candidate. That's just how it works.
To be honest, I don't think this is a thing about individual votes and how folks think their vote is going to reflect on them.
I'm pretty sure that both sides of this discussion view Biden as what needs to happen as the next step forward. The two sides, however, are one set of people looking at the necessity of it while maintaining a bit of optimism, and the other not wanting lose the necessary criticism of how their leaders act.
And to be honest I don't think anybody is overtly in the wrong, here.
Those looking at the necessity and being hopeful are being put off by the criticism, and are maybe worrying that going too strong with it might start to do more harm than good. The folks wanting to criticize and consistently push for better are seeing the optimism and statements on necessity and worrying that the people we are electing will proceed to do some shady stuff and take advantage of that.
As someone who's on the criticism side, I have to say; I understand the need to get rid of Trump. I am one hundred percent with you on that, and I'm pretty sure other folks are as well. The necessity of electing Biden is absolutely recognized, and the optimism is appreciated because goodness knows that's something everyone wishes they had.
I assure you there isn't any kind of movement being pushed of mass write-ups for Bernie or AOC anything. I just ask that, provided we get Biden in the white house, you join in on calling the Democrats out on stuff they do wrong after that. And while he is getting my vote, I also ask please not to judge folks who legitimately cannot bring themselves to cast that vote for Biden.
The only leverage you have is your vote so by casting it in support of a centrist you're basically throwing your influence away. You're caving instantly.
It is the height of arrogance yes. You think that you are the one being held hostage but the counter case would be to project your will onto the polity instead. It is a deeply undemocratic and incredibly arrogant position.
You will also die someday; "true autonomy" is nonsense and fictional.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Nah, this is demonstratively wrong. We've literally seen Biden move left since the primary. Because politicians respond to pressure from their constituencies.
I will absolutely judge anyone who does not cast a vote for Biden. While it’s their prerogative to exercise that freedom, it’s also mine to judge them for it.
You could say the same about not voting for him though. That's why I think most here would agree that the primary is the place for such process and argument to play out
First past the post sucks and has always sucked.
If you're so far to the left that you see the entire structure as evil and both sides are the same and no change except radical structural overhaul or maybe even a revolution will fix it?
Yes. If you feel like "doing what's better for most people even though it's not what you believe to be the best even a very good solution" is losing your autonomy, then yes. Your sense of autonomy is miscalibrated and that should probably get adjusted but in the meantime, yes. Within that frame, yes.
You have to vote for the lesser evil all the time, obviously, since your frame considers all the choices evil and one of them is less so.
The party elite chose Biden? Or did the voters?
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
If you don't vote for him then he actually has to think about how he's going to win your vote. If you do then he's got it and he doesn't.
You are being more than a bit of a silly goose by trying to act like just because you don't get exactly the person you want that it's some sort of great burden upon you specifically.
This is how democracy works, for everybody. Fuckin' deal with it. Or, if you choose to, don't vote. But then be so kind as to complain only to yourself, because you've done nothing to even try to make things better.
I've already lived through wide swaths of the left arguing that there's no difference in candidates twice - and George W Bush and Trump got elected. There's no goddamn way that I have the patience to treat this both sides nonsense as legitimate a third time.
But as in what you say if you vote for him how is he to know that your vote is for that purpose and not just part of the electorate that doesn't pay attention/doesn't vote/whatever? Hence why the primary is a good place to show that
There was a primary where we chose a candidate to represent us
Then there will be the midterms, and another presidential election, where there will be another primary where *checks notes* noted “diet-evil” joe Biden will probably not be running.
You’re also acting like the presidential election is the only one occurring in 2020 which is precisely the kind of thinking that got the Democratic Party where it is right now
The primary for 2020 is over but the battle for the heart and soul of the party is just beginning.
So yes, I absolutely don’t care if the person the majority of our party picked makes you feel bad. Save the republic while you still can. Calling the best hope we have to defeat trump evil 3 months before the election doesn’t help your cause
I feel like I threw gasoline on the fire yesterday. Thank you for being better.
This is just wrong. All it communicates is you are unreliable and shouldn't be catered to. And they are quite open about that. If not voting was the way to get your issues addressed the elderly would be ignored and the young catered to.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I want to add to this some, and hopefully you won't object at the end. I have been told a lot about how Trump is this great evil, and all these people are dying. How can I not be moved? Because I, and many like me, have grown up waiting for this shit to happen. And to be entirely honest, I never knew which political party would be the ones to do it.
You see, I am part of a community that is at best treated as an ally of convenience. Actually delivering better conditions for me and mine is never a top goal. In fact, it isn't even really talked about outside of election time when we become so important to help. Because who knows what the evil others will do! Except, neither side wants to do shit in the end. We are cast off in the name of political expedience. We are expected to understand that it's just not the right time. We will circle back when there is more political will for it. Only, that part never seems to happen.
I will spare you the listing of offenses because honestly I don't think there is much point to it. People rarely hear my pleas for what they are, and getting bogged down in minutia will only end in nasty, bitter, spiteful posts from others as well as myself most likely. There is a reason I am not trusting Lucy with that football though. I know 2/3rds of the promises get worked on, but it's funny how often my ability to be a real fucking person under the law keeps ending up in that last third.
So you tell me know thousands will die? Americans will get treated like dirt? People will be stripped of their rights? That is the USA I have lived in my whole life. It's not that I don't care as much as I am just numb. I also have watched time and again as those meant to help us quickly forget we exist the second they can manage it.
I am really glad some of you still believe that there is a better world out there. I am happy so many of you got to live in it. Until you have lived in mine though don't come and judge me for how I act now. Once you see the world from my view you also might have a much different view of our political landscape. You might even see why it is so important to some of us to fight for something better, because with things as they are I still see thousands suffering and dying. They just look as sympathetic on the nightly news.
No it's the complete opposite. You know why candidates tend to throw so many bones to the old people and virtually none to young people? It's because the old people vote and vote constantly and young people don't.
Like what you just said is the complete opposite of actual reality.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Except way less effective.
This is debate and discourse not fawn and cajole. Sometimes the truth is better than dishonestly pretending a position isn't goosey in an attempt to get them to moderate it.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I mean, move left more than he already has
right right facts don't care about your opinions etc
I don’t think anyone here is going to persuaded to vote one way or the other. Anyone spending time reading and posting here knows how or if they’ll vote. It’s a forum for debate and discourse.
In that it tells politicians that there is no need to pay much attention to your interests, because you're not participating in the system, sure.
You're making a truly compelling case for any political engagement within the system.
"Disregard your convictions and vote for the guy that just wants to shoot you in the leg" is a sales pitch you may want to rework in the office.
Seriously, if this argument is that I, as a political agent in a democratic republic, have no real sense of autonomy and must vote for who this collective demands, what sense of freedom do I truly have in relation to the president elect? You can keep hurling claims of me being undemocratic, but you insults of arrogance and demands of one-street voting send a very similar message.