I still think y'all would be much better off if you change your approach when a left-leaning person comes in here with doubts about voting for Biden because his policies in the past have hurt a whole lot of people. Saying "Vote for Biden because Trump will do bad things and if you don't you're also bad" won't work. In their eyes, Biden has already done a ton of damage and set the stage for our current situation, and insulting them because some of those things are a bridge too far definitely won't win them over.
You should instead say "Consider voting for Biden because he's adopted Bernie's policy on free college for students from families making under $125,000" or "Vote for Biden because he's listened and made his climate change policy much more aggressive, with additional spending and reducing his target date from 2050 to 2035" or other examples of where he's done this.
Will it be enough to sway them? Who knows!?! Probably not, but aren't y'all the ones saying you want every vote you can get? Why keep taking this approach of hostility that clearly isn't bringing people in over and over again.
You guys are quick to say he's moved left without giving examples and instead to just doomsay and insult. If you want the left on your side, change your approach and your messaging, because you guys are VERY hostile about any dissent toward Biden. It took me arguing for multiple pages earlier looking for examples of where he's moved left to even get one person to say anything specific, and then the ACTUAL policy that would be convincing to the left (the free public college one I mentioned above) I dug up for myself while trying to read up on the other policy (a very complicated, very centrist dem plan to help people with existing student loans that does provide some relief but is a definite half-measure).
Saying "I dunno read the website" or linking to the 100+ page Biden/Sanders task-force document without any analysis whatsoever will not bring people over.
People in this thread, myself included, have been doing that for the last month or so and then get laughed at or dragged for it so I don't really begrudge others for saying fuck it and just being angry instead.
Your vote for Biden is also not super helpful if you spend the next 3 months convincing everyone in your social network to not vote for Biden
if i were joe biden i would simply be less terrible
I doubt he could do anything to convince you. why would he try?
Because doing the right thing for its own sake is worthwhile and all we're asking of our government representatives and candidates.
'doing the right thing' in this case, of course, being 'shift his political views completely so they mirror my own'
which he won't do because their his own political views and he thinks they risk alienating moderate voters
he did choose a VP that co-sponsored M4A and has an extremely liberal senate voting record, and she is pretty likely to need to serve as president in the next 4 years.
+16
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I think I said it here recently but Joe Biden convincing the left he's going to do what he says is contingent on winning the election and then actually doing those things. Any sort of forecasting that he will isn't the same thing as evidence. People don't trust him, not just because no politician should ever be trusted at face value, but because of his history in government. He has said things during this campaign that haven't helped either.
People are on guard, preparing themselves for being lied to. "I'll give you my vote, but I know you're going to fuck me over somehow" is a valid viewpoint. It's really silly to tell them that things will be okay as though anyone has been to the future.
You guys are quick to say he's moved left without giving examples
There are bunches of articles about it.
See this is a shit approach though! Tell them which articles! Win their votes!
These are good idea. I think it's just frustrating to have to go through the same song and dance every couple weeks for the last like, 8 months every time someone new (or worse, not someone new...) comes in saying that not voting is better than voting Dem or whatever.
The idea is to persuade more and more people that the left wing has better answers by regularly pointing out how stupid the DNC is, how much Biden sucks etc so as to eventually become a majority position with a strong public mandate and win. It's not complicated.
It also doesn't work. Trying to win the support of the Democratic Party on a platform of "the Democratic Party sucks" is a fool's errand at best, and alienates the very people who you're trying to get support from at worst.
I have no empathy for people who support left-wing ideals but aren't voting democrat in American elections.
Until the Republican party is dead and buried, or you change your system to have ranked choice voting, then you are not an ally in any way that matters.
Ironically conservatives understand this. It's why they keep winning.
I meant empathy on more of a person-to-person level, like talking to that individual and figuring out where they are coming from and trying to work together from there.
No offense to Six, but I meant that in response to his comment which seemed like a general "fuck you if you don't do this" statement aimed at folks who my original comment might apply to. This comment seemed like something really similar based on my follow up. While I totally understand that anger, I think that within this thread and amongst everyone here there is a better way than that. By all means, express that rage at the Republicans and those supporting Trump. It has a just home within that space. There's a good chance that we can build in this conversation instead of bicker, though.
And like I said before, Biden is getting my vote. I agree on the need for him to win this election. It just kind of sucks that the amount of vitriol is here between folks who could be collaborating and rounding out two sides of a wholesome conversation, rather than turning them against one another.
At this point I really dont feel like the Far Left wants to be part of the Democratic collation.
Which is fine, but then wondering why they wont support your policies when you have declared them your enemy seems kinda...odd.
Same with playing the "why should I vote for Biden" game. It always feels like an excuse to complain about him. I've never seen anyone doing it with an open mind.
I would love for Leftists to be in the big tent. I just dont know what can be done to get them to join anymore, other than surrendering the party to a minority group within it. Which, is not going to happen.
At this point in history everyone's patience should basically be exhausted by it, because frankly this all sounds like 2016. So much "I don't really like Hillary but..." and then oh look Trump presidency I guess all your "concerns" were addressed by that.
The idea is to persuade more and more people that the left wing has better answers by regularly pointing out how stupid the DNC is, how much Biden sucks etc so as to eventually become a majority position with a strong public mandate and win. It's not complicated.
You don't see how that antagonizes people? Why are you not talking up the ideas and ideals you want to promote instead and convincing them of your goodness instead of trying to convince people of their badness? So many people here keep saying over and over again that the energy would be better spent supporting people who more closely match you and yours, rather than tearing down and destroying your closest natural political allies, even while those allies keep moving closer and closer to you.
+8
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
The left isn’t at the mercy of anyone. Like... honestly if you’re at an end of a political spectrum don’t you see how simple math means you, by definition, don’t get as much representation?
Do you expect 80% of the population to be forced into the policies of 20%?
It’s a selfish, unrealistic thought!
I think Biden has actually done a hell of a job moving his messaging to the left which typically does not happen after the primary. You normally rush to the center.
You’re actually winning... Biden is listening. The progressive youth movement IS moving the party left. That’s how this works. I truly don’t understand the cynicism there.
I mentioned before that when you ask people "what do you believe is right for government to do?" is different from "what do you think the government is capable of doing?" on any given issue in America. People will give you different answers to each. By majority people believe in doing things the left wants, but as soon as it is brought up how, support bleeds off, either because people don't want to sacrifice what it would take (working with the budget or upping taxes on the wealthy), or they're jaded and don't believe it would ever pass votes even if you brought in new representatives and senators. Which is a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
But if Biden is elected in November, the left may get a presidency it likes after all — or at least one it hates less than anticipated. The coronavirus outbreak and the resulting massive surge in unemployment has moved American political discourse to the left: Ideas that would have been considered too liberal for most Democrats a few months ago are now being proposed by Republicans. And if American politics is moving left, expect Biden to do the same. Biden was often cast as a centrist or a moderate during the Democratic primaries, but those labels don’t really describe his politics that well — he doesn’t really seem to have any kind of set ideology at all.
Instead, Biden’s long record in public office suggests that he is fairly flexible on policy — shifting his positions to whatever is in the mainstream of the Democratic Party at a given moment. So if Biden wins the presidency and his fellow Democrats are still clamoring for more government spending to help the pandemic recovery, Biden is likely to be a fairly liberal president, no matter how moderate he sounded in the primaries.1
That willingness to change with the times was also evident in Biden’s 2020 primary platform. Biden adopted fairly liberal policies — not as liberal as those of Sanders and Sen. Elizabeth Warren, but more liberal than his pre-campaign record suggested. The Democratic Party is more liberal now than it was when Bill Clinton took office, or even when Obama was inaugurated, and Biden’s platform reflects that shift. Some of Biden’s 2020 policy proposals are notably to the left of the Obama administration’s stances when it left office in early 2017, including Biden’s support for the abolition of the death penalty, halting nearly all deportations of undocumented immigrants in his first 100 days as president and free four-year college for Americans in households with incomes up to $125,000 a year.
Pretty much every news website has various articles talking about ways in which Biden has moved left and various reasons why.
I dunno if we need this thread to be around for a bit, to be honest. The convention is over and while you may have the energy to wake up bright and early for a few hours of yelling FUCK YOU at other posters I don’t have the energy to moderate it.
Like what do you want the left to do, congratulate Biden on the moves they have forced him to make? Or continue to try to force him to move further left? It actually seems like what people want the left to do is shut up and vote for Biden and pretend to be enthusiastic about it.
I mean, to a degree? his policy and agenda up until the election are set. Early voting is starting very shortly. He is not going to shift leftward and risk alienating white suburbanites. The most effective thing leftists can do now is advocate for downticket races and begin scouting talent for 2022 primaries and identify vulnerable, shitty democrat incumbents. make The Squad much, much bigger.
The idea is to persuade more and more people that the left wing has better answers by regularly pointing out how stupid the DNC is, how much Biden sucks etc so as to eventually become a majority position with a strong public mandate and win. It's not complicated.
You claimed that Biden being elected wouldn’t make a difference over Trump being elected.
That isn’t extolling the virtues of the left wing it’s both sides nihilism.
I’ll shout from the heavens about the objective superiority of higher taxes, universal healthcare, and UBI. I won’t pretend any candidate not unequivocally supporting all those things makes them identical to all other candidates that don’t.
I think I said it here recently but Joe Biden convincing the left he's going to do what he says is contingent on winning the election and then actually doing those things. Any sort of forecasting that he will isn't the same thing as evidence. People don't trust him, not just because no politician should ever be trusted at face value, but because of his history in government. He has said things during this campaign that haven't helped either.
People are on guard, preparing themselves for being lied to. "I'll give you my vote, but I know you're going to fuck me over somehow" is a valid viewpoint. It's really silly to tell them that things will be okay as though anyone has been to the future.
That’s fair. But.. is the ability to implement leftist policy really up to joe?
Like put Bernie Sanders in office, how the hell does he get his agenda across?
The president isn’t a god king.
While I understand the sentiment that you can’t just take his word. I also don’t think it’s entirely fair to judge his intent on his ability to accomplish it
In theory I would love to see Bernie as president so you get voters see that he would probably fall flat on most his agenda and politics isn’t waving a magic wand around and realize we have to fight for every inch
But instead they’d probably just get more cynical and give up (I realize this is ironic)
Like what do you want the left to do, congratulate Biden on the moves they have forced him to make? Or continue to try to force him to move further left? It actually seems like what people want the left to do is shut up and vote for Biden and pretend to be enthusiastic about it.
What do you want the DNC to do. Say hey, we know you are only one small fraction of the party but we are giving you total control?
Like honestly, to me you can complain about Biden. But what result other than complete capitulation do you want?
The idea is to persuade more and more people that the left wing has better answers by regularly pointing out how stupid the DNC is, how much Biden sucks etc so as to eventually become a majority position with a strong public mandate and win. It's not complicated.
And you think the best way to do this is to argue that whether they live or die is not a meaningful distinction, all while refusing to participate in the system or do anything to prove that you have better answers?
I don't think that's going to go the way you think.
+4
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
The position of POTUS is whip power to vote on legislation and to a lesser extend craft legislation. So it does matter what Biden has to say about things, be it now or post-election.
I don't thinks its hyperbolic to say if the GOP wins in 2020, you may very well not have a real election again for a while.
That's not nihlism it's an observation based on how hard they've tried to fuck the system over the last 4 years. Next time around he won't even have to be coy about it
I think I said it here recently but Joe Biden convincing the left he's going to do what he says is contingent on winning the election and then actually doing those things. Any sort of forecasting that he will isn't the same thing as evidence. People don't trust him, not just because no politician should ever be trusted at face value, but because of his history in government. He has said things during this campaign that haven't helped either.
People are on guard, preparing themselves for being lied to. "I'll give you my vote, but I know you're going to fuck me over somehow" is a valid viewpoint. It's really silly to tell them that things will be okay as though anyone has been to the future.
Would it not be at least as equally silly to say they won't be any different under Biden?
It's certainly not silly to suggest things will continue to get worse under Trump, as we've all witnessed the past 4 years. Even if it hasn't personally affected you (meaning any individual, not singling you out specifically), it's affected millions of people, from ignoring a pandemic, to dismantling the post office, to abandoning Puerto Rico to die out after a hurricane, to ignoring aid to states that don't unwaveringly support him, to separating families at the border, to sending in federal troops to terrorize Democratic cities for daring to exercise their right to protest, to packing the courts with unqualified and dangerous federal judges from the top down, and that's just in the last year plus!
Almost no one's first choice here from the beginning is Biden. Nobody is going to agree with him 100% on policy. His goal is to get elected at this point, and he's going to reach out to as many potential voters as he can to assure that happens, even despite Trump's fuckery with the USPS and foreign election interference. But the presidential election boils down to 2 realistic results, and we know how bad the one is, since it's arguably the worst choice this country has made since its inception.
It's not fair, but it's the system we have. Fortunately, there are a ton of other positions up for election this year as well, and there are a bunch of more progressive candidates up for those positions, so in my opinion, the best place to push further left is starting on the local level, and working through congressional elections to move the legislative branch as far left as we can. Just in 2018, several progressive candidates have made a difference in the legislative discourse, at least at the House level.
You guys are quick to say he's moved left without giving examples
There are bunches of articles about it.
See this is a shit approach though! Tell them which articles! Win their votes!
These are good idea. I think it's just frustrating to have to go through the same song and dance every couple weeks for the last like, 8 months every time someone new (or worse, not someone new...) comes in saying that not voting is better than voting Dem or whatever.
It may be frustrating, but expecting someone new to dig through every single post in this thread or worse, older threads, when they come through and vent their frustration during a major event like the convention is unrealistic.
+4
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I think I said it here recently but Joe Biden convincing the left he's going to do what he says is contingent on winning the election and then actually doing those things. Any sort of forecasting that he will isn't the same thing as evidence. People don't trust him, not just because no politician should ever be trusted at face value, but because of his history in government. He has said things during this campaign that haven't helped either.
People are on guard, preparing themselves for being lied to. "I'll give you my vote, but I know you're going to fuck me over somehow" is a valid viewpoint. It's really silly to tell them that things will be okay as though anyone has been to the future.
Would it not be at least as equally silly to say they won't be any different under Biden?
No because we have literally experienced America with Biden serving in government. We can chart projections from that on what to expect using those years, vs charting projections based on campaign messaging (which again is historically a load across many candidates in many elections).
Trump we had no idea what exactly he was going to try in his four years because he never served in government before. Now we know and holy shit we need to get the fuck away from that.
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all. Edit - Not just me but ANY leftist or young voter (both groups are separate and tend to be the target of this sort of stuff).
The position of POTUS is whip power to vote on legislation and to a lesser extend craft legislation. So it does matter what Biden has to say about things, be it now or post-election.
It does matter sure! But I’m just saying a failure to accomplish things he is saying he wants to do isn’t proof he was being disingenuous about those claims
Like I really believe policy wise, a Biden who personally moved super far to the left, and one who didn’t, would likely end up looking the same because I think either one would only go as far left as congress allowed
So a Biden that is lying to you about moving left and one who is honestly moving left, will likely end up being the same President
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all.
Literally not one person has said this.
At least one person has said that a leftist's vote for Biden doesn't count if they convince their peers not to vote for him. Sounds a bit like "shut up, smile, and vote" to me.
I don't think telling Biden "I'm going to vote for you, but I'd really prefer it if you did better at X, Y, and Z" will work, because pretty much every politician will check out after "I'm going to vote for you". Biden just also has this fun trick where he then tells you to not vote for him if you disagree with his policies too much. A lot of the political calculus here is basically that the left is at the mercy of the center on a systemic level, and the only tool we have is bluffing them. So yeah, I'd like to keep that pretense up, even if it's just a pretense, because it makes the center scared we'll drop them, and that's about the only piece of power we on the left can really use.
So I want to circle back around on this, because it floored me last night.
During the recap of Biden's political history, they pointed out that he started in government by running in a heavily Republican area. So heavily Republican that he didn't get much help from the DNC and most people wrote him off.
He got elected by reaching out to people and listening to them and working to enact what they wanted.
One specific clip got played - Biden out campaigning in the 70's. And he said the following: "Take a look at me. If you don't like what you see, then vote for the other guy. But I'd appreciate it if you give me a look."
I am a firm believer in people changing over time, especially as the march of progress continues. But to hear a politician actively telling those he meets to research and explore his history and his views, and to not vote for him if they aren't okay with it? That's... holy shit. That's some powerful stuff.
A lot of people were angry when Biden was quoted as saying that if you don't like him, vote for Trump (or Bernie in the primaries). They took it as a sign that his heart wasn't in it, or he was being cynical. But the truth was, he wants people to be engaged. He wants to win on the merits, in a fair fight. And that's incredible, to me.
And it also gets to the heart of the last few pages of shitty back and forth. Realistically, in America, we get to place our votes in two places: Trump or Biden. A vote for a 3rd party or an abstention will be seen as a vote for "The other guy" by anyone who has chosen a side. Which begs the question -- if you have 2 choices on where to place your vote, and you've taken a look at both of them, where does your vote go?
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all.
Literally not one person has said this.
At least one person has said that a leftist's vote for Biden doesn't count if they convince their peers not to vote for him. Sounds a bit like "shut up, smile, and vote" to me.
This is a false paraphrase used to try to create a false equivalence.
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all.
Literally not one person has said this.
At least one person has said that a leftist's vote for Biden doesn't count if they convince their peers not to vote for him. Sounds a bit like "shut up, smile, and vote" to me.
What?
If someone is trying to convince people not to vote for Biden, and even one of those people don't, then yeah, their vote is immaterial. That's not shut up and smile it's the objective result of their actions.
Acknowledging the real world results of a person's actions isn't an insult or judgement.
+23
Options
SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all.
Literally not one person has said this.
At least one person has said that a leftist's vote for Biden doesn't count if they convince their peers not to vote for him. Sounds a bit like "shut up, smile, and vote" to me.
I'm fine with saying that.
Having said it, and you having previously weighed your choices and decided: what, are you going to not vote for him now to punish me, some rando on the internet?
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
You should vote for Biden because of expansion of voting rights and judicial appointments. Without those two things, no enduring leftward changes will ever be possible.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all.
Literally not one person has said this.
At least one person has said that a leftist's vote for Biden doesn't count if they convince their peers not to vote for him. Sounds a bit like "shut up, smile, and vote" to me.
Maybe don't make up your own narrative about what something really means.
Basic math is that, if you vote for candidate Y, but you convince 2 people to not vote for candidate Y who otherwise would have, you have -1 votes for candidate Y.
You can still complain but make sure you're not talking people into not voting.
I don't thinks its hyperbolic to say if the GOP wins in 2020, you may very well not have a real election again for a while.
That's not nihlism it's an observation based on how hard they've tried to fuck the system over the last 4 years. Next time around he won't even have to be coy about it
It's barely gonna be an election this time it seems. It feels like there's gonna need to be a wave big enough to overcome a mountain of things that will stand in the way of people voting and having that vote counted. And big enough not just to kick Trump out but to also grab ahold of the Senate. And then hope they kill the filibuster and prioritize vote reform.
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all.
Literally not one person has said this.
At least one person has said that a leftist's vote for Biden doesn't count if they convince their peers not to vote for him. Sounds a bit like "shut up, smile, and vote" to me.
Maybe don't make up your own narrative about what something really means.
Basic math is that, if you vote for candidate Y, but you convince 2 people to not vote for candidate Y who otherwise would have, you have -1 votes for candidate Y.
You can still complain but make sure you're not talking people into not voting.
If someone complains about Biden and in the process convinces two people into not voting, have they accidentally voted Trump into office?
Warren's speech was my favorite out of the convention now that it's over and I've thought about it. I think everybody said the right things and important things, but just in Warren's way of speaking I hear more earnest emotion.
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all.
Literally not one person has said this.
At least one person has said that a leftist's vote for Biden doesn't count if they convince their peers not to vote for him. Sounds a bit like "shut up, smile, and vote" to me.
that was me, and I didn't say it doesn't count I said it will help us lose
there is also a large gulf between 'shut smile and vote' and 'don't call our chosen candidate an evil fascist who is not different from trump'
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all.
Literally not one person has said this.
At least one person has said that a leftist's vote for Biden doesn't count if they convince their peers not to vote for him. Sounds a bit like "shut up, smile, and vote" to me.
Maybe don't make up your own narrative about what something really means.
Basic math is that, if you vote for candidate Y, but you convince 2 people to not vote for candidate Y who otherwise would have, you have -1 votes for candidate Y.
You can still complain but make sure you're not talking people into not voting.
If someone complains about Biden and in the process convinces two people into not voting, have they accidentally voted Trump into office?
and yes, people in this thread have absolutely called biden evil and fascist
these are not nuanced policy criticisms of someone you're willing to vote for but you hope moves leftward. that is full on nihilism and attempting to get your peers to disengage from the political process at THE MOST CRUCIAL time in our republic's history.
Posts
People in this thread, myself included, have been doing that for the last month or so and then get laughed at or dragged for it so I don't really begrudge others for saying fuck it and just being angry instead.
'doing the right thing' in this case, of course, being 'shift his political views completely so they mirror my own'
which he won't do because their his own political views and he thinks they risk alienating moderate voters
he did choose a VP that co-sponsored M4A and has an extremely liberal senate voting record, and she is pretty likely to need to serve as president in the next 4 years.
People are on guard, preparing themselves for being lied to. "I'll give you my vote, but I know you're going to fuck me over somehow" is a valid viewpoint. It's really silly to tell them that things will be okay as though anyone has been to the future.
These are good idea. I think it's just frustrating to have to go through the same song and dance every couple weeks for the last like, 8 months every time someone new (or worse, not someone new...) comes in saying that not voting is better than voting Dem or whatever.
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
It also doesn't work. Trying to win the support of the Democratic Party on a platform of "the Democratic Party sucks" is a fool's errand at best, and alienates the very people who you're trying to get support from at worst.
At this point in history everyone's patience should basically be exhausted by it, because frankly this all sounds like 2016. So much "I don't really like Hillary but..." and then oh look Trump presidency I guess all your "concerns" were addressed by that.
You don't see how that antagonizes people? Why are you not talking up the ideas and ideals you want to promote instead and convincing them of your goodness instead of trying to convince people of their badness? So many people here keep saying over and over again that the energy would be better spent supporting people who more closely match you and yours, rather than tearing down and destroying your closest natural political allies, even while those allies keep moving closer and closer to you.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-pandemic-has-pushed-biden-to-the-left-how-far-will-he-go/
Pretty much every news website has various articles talking about ways in which Biden has moved left and various reasons why.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I mean, to a degree? his policy and agenda up until the election are set. Early voting is starting very shortly. He is not going to shift leftward and risk alienating white suburbanites. The most effective thing leftists can do now is advocate for downticket races and begin scouting talent for 2022 primaries and identify vulnerable, shitty democrat incumbents. make The Squad much, much bigger.
You claimed that Biden being elected wouldn’t make a difference over Trump being elected.
That isn’t extolling the virtues of the left wing it’s both sides nihilism.
I’ll shout from the heavens about the objective superiority of higher taxes, universal healthcare, and UBI. I won’t pretend any candidate not unequivocally supporting all those things makes them identical to all other candidates that don’t.
That’s fair. But.. is the ability to implement leftist policy really up to joe?
Like put Bernie Sanders in office, how the hell does he get his agenda across?
The president isn’t a god king.
While I understand the sentiment that you can’t just take his word. I also don’t think it’s entirely fair to judge his intent on his ability to accomplish it
In theory I would love to see Bernie as president so you get voters see that he would probably fall flat on most his agenda and politics isn’t waving a magic wand around and realize we have to fight for every inch
But instead they’d probably just get more cynical and give up (I realize this is ironic)
that is absolutely going to primo 'capitalism fucking sucks lets elect socialists' time
What do you want the DNC to do. Say hey, we know you are only one small fraction of the party but we are giving you total control?
Like honestly, to me you can complain about Biden. But what result other than complete capitulation do you want?
And you think the best way to do this is to argue that whether they live or die is not a meaningful distinction, all while refusing to participate in the system or do anything to prove that you have better answers?
I don't think that's going to go the way you think.
That's not nihlism it's an observation based on how hard they've tried to fuck the system over the last 4 years. Next time around he won't even have to be coy about it
Would it not be at least as equally silly to say they won't be any different under Biden?
It's certainly not silly to suggest things will continue to get worse under Trump, as we've all witnessed the past 4 years. Even if it hasn't personally affected you (meaning any individual, not singling you out specifically), it's affected millions of people, from ignoring a pandemic, to dismantling the post office, to abandoning Puerto Rico to die out after a hurricane, to ignoring aid to states that don't unwaveringly support him, to separating families at the border, to sending in federal troops to terrorize Democratic cities for daring to exercise their right to protest, to packing the courts with unqualified and dangerous federal judges from the top down, and that's just in the last year plus!
Almost no one's first choice here from the beginning is Biden. Nobody is going to agree with him 100% on policy. His goal is to get elected at this point, and he's going to reach out to as many potential voters as he can to assure that happens, even despite Trump's fuckery with the USPS and foreign election interference. But the presidential election boils down to 2 realistic results, and we know how bad the one is, since it's arguably the worst choice this country has made since its inception.
It's not fair, but it's the system we have. Fortunately, there are a ton of other positions up for election this year as well, and there are a bunch of more progressive candidates up for those positions, so in my opinion, the best place to push further left is starting on the local level, and working through congressional elections to move the legislative branch as far left as we can. Just in 2018, several progressive candidates have made a difference in the legislative discourse, at least at the House level.
It may be frustrating, but expecting someone new to dig through every single post in this thread or worse, older threads, when they come through and vent their frustration during a major event like the convention is unrealistic.
Trump we had no idea what exactly he was going to try in his four years because he never served in government before. Now we know and holy shit we need to get the fuck away from that.
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all. Edit - Not just me but ANY leftist or young voter (both groups are separate and tend to be the target of this sort of stuff).
Literally not one person has said this.
It does matter sure! But I’m just saying a failure to accomplish things he is saying he wants to do isn’t proof he was being disingenuous about those claims
Like I really believe policy wise, a Biden who personally moved super far to the left, and one who didn’t, would likely end up looking the same because I think either one would only go as far left as congress allowed
So a Biden that is lying to you about moving left and one who is honestly moving left, will likely end up being the same President
At least one person has said that a leftist's vote for Biden doesn't count if they convince their peers not to vote for him. Sounds a bit like "shut up, smile, and vote" to me.
So I want to circle back around on this, because it floored me last night.
During the recap of Biden's political history, they pointed out that he started in government by running in a heavily Republican area. So heavily Republican that he didn't get much help from the DNC and most people wrote him off.
He got elected by reaching out to people and listening to them and working to enact what they wanted.
One specific clip got played - Biden out campaigning in the 70's. And he said the following: "Take a look at me. If you don't like what you see, then vote for the other guy. But I'd appreciate it if you give me a look."
I am a firm believer in people changing over time, especially as the march of progress continues. But to hear a politician actively telling those he meets to research and explore his history and his views, and to not vote for him if they aren't okay with it? That's... holy shit. That's some powerful stuff.
A lot of people were angry when Biden was quoted as saying that if you don't like him, vote for Trump (or Bernie in the primaries). They took it as a sign that his heart wasn't in it, or he was being cynical. But the truth was, he wants people to be engaged. He wants to win on the merits, in a fair fight. And that's incredible, to me.
And it also gets to the heart of the last few pages of shitty back and forth. Realistically, in America, we get to place our votes in two places: Trump or Biden. A vote for a 3rd party or an abstention will be seen as a vote for "The other guy" by anyone who has chosen a side. Which begs the question -- if you have 2 choices on where to place your vote, and you've taken a look at both of them, where does your vote go?
This is a false paraphrase used to try to create a false equivalence.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
What?
If someone is trying to convince people not to vote for Biden, and even one of those people don't, then yeah, their vote is immaterial. That's not shut up and smile it's the objective result of their actions.
Acknowledging the real world results of a person's actions isn't an insult or judgement.
I'm fine with saying that.
Having said it, and you having previously weighed your choices and decided: what, are you going to not vote for him now to punish me, some rando on the internet?
Yeah but you'd think a hundred year pandemic would be Medicare For All time but here we are
Maybe don't make up your own narrative about what something really means.
Basic math is that, if you vote for candidate Y, but you convince 2 people to not vote for candidate Y who otherwise would have, you have -1 votes for candidate Y.
You can still complain but make sure you're not talking people into not voting.
It's barely gonna be an election this time it seems. It feels like there's gonna need to be a wave big enough to overcome a mountain of things that will stand in the way of people voting and having that vote counted. And big enough not just to kick Trump out but to also grab ahold of the Senate. And then hope they kill the filibuster and prioritize vote reform.
If someone complains about Biden and in the process convinces two people into not voting, have they accidentally voted Trump into office?
It turns out accelerationism doesn't work. As evidenced by the fact that Joe Biden is the nominee. Crises actually make people more risk averse.
that was me, and I didn't say it doesn't count I said it will help us lose
there is also a large gulf between 'shut smile and vote' and 'don't call our chosen candidate an evil fascist who is not different from trump'
In aggregate? Yeah.
these are not nuanced policy criticisms of someone you're willing to vote for but you hope moves leftward. that is full on nihilism and attempting to get your peers to disengage from the political process at THE MOST CRUCIAL time in our republic's history.