I have no empathy for people who support left-wing ideals but aren't voting democrat in American elections.
Until the Republican party is dead and buried, or you change your system to have ranked choice voting, then you are not an ally in any way that matters.
Ironically conservatives understand this. It's why they keep winning.
I meant empathy on more of a person-to-person level, like talking to that individual and figuring out where they are coming from and trying to work together from there.
No offense to Six, but I meant that in response to his comment which seemed like a general "fuck you if you don't do this" statement aimed at folks who my original comment might apply to. This comment seemed like something really similar based on my follow up. While I totally understand that anger, I think that within this thread and amongst everyone here there is a better way than that. By all means, express that rage at the Republicans and those supporting Trump. It has a just home within that space. There's a good chance that we can build in this conversation instead of bicker, though.
And like I said before, Biden is getting my vote. I agree on the need for him to win this election. It just kind of sucks that the amount of vitriol is here between folks who could be collaborating and rounding out two sides of a wholesome conversation, rather than turning them against one another.
At this point I really dont feel like the Far Left wants to be part of the Democratic collation.
Which is fine, but then wondering why they wont support your policies when you have declared them your enemy seems kinda...odd.
Same with playing the "why should I vote for Biden" game. It always feels like an excuse to complain about him. I've never seen anyone doing it with an open mind.
I would love for Leftists to be in the big tent. I just dont know what can be done to get them to join anymore, other than surrendering the party to a minority group within it. Which, is not going to happen.
I have no empathy for people who support left-wing ideals but aren't voting democrat in American elections.
Until the Republican party is dead and buried, or you change your system to have ranked choice voting, then you are not an ally in any way that matters.
Ironically conservatives understand this. It's why they keep winning.
I meant empathy on more of a person-to-person level, like talking to that individual and figuring out where they are coming from and trying to work together from there.
No offense to Six, but I meant that in response to his comment which seemed like a general "fuck you if you don't do this" statement aimed at folks who my original comment might apply to. This comment seemed like something really similar based on my follow up. While I totally understand that anger, I think that within this thread and amongst everyone here there is a better way than that. By all means, express that rage at the Republicans and those supporting Trump. It has a just home within that space. There's a good chance that we can build in this conversation instead of bicker, though.
And like I said before, Biden is getting my vote. I agree on the need for him to win this election. It just kind of sucks that the amount of vitriol is here between folks who could be collaborating and rounding out two sides of a wholesome conversation, rather than turning them against one another.
At this point I really dont feel like the Far Left wants to be part of the Democratic collation.
Which is fine, but then wondering why they wont support your policies when you have declared them your enemy seems kinda...odd.
Same with playing the "why should I vote for Biden" game. It always feels like an excuse to complain about him. I've never seen anyone doing it with an open mind.
I would love for Leftists to be in the big tent. I just dont know what can be done to get them to join anymore, other than surrendering the party to a minority group within it. Which, is not going to happen.
At this point in history everyone's patience should basically be exhausted by it, because frankly this all sounds like 2016. So much "I don't really like Hillary but..." and then oh look Trump presidency I guess all your "concerns" were addressed by that.
That's the thing, there's no "fuck you for voting Biden" sentiment here. Just caution and weariness and people wanting to forge forward the best we can.
To reference what JusticeForPluto said, I honestly thing that being in the tent is something I want as someone being pretty far left. Just let us keep our eyes open and give constructive criticism where we can.
I'm probably going to duck out of this thread though. That's three posts proposing collaboration from me and each one gathering a retort dismissing the left or those who just have some doubts.
I tried, you guys. It seems pretty clear that I'm not welcome here.
I am all for constructive criticism! Biden was my last choice. I felt he should of dropped out before the first vote was even cast.
I just feel like there's a lot of "the Dems suck and will continue to suck" sentiment. Which I understand. I just dont know how the party makes inroads to such a group.
I'm sorry if I attacked you, that wasn't my intention. It's just I've seen these same arguments being made for 4 years and I dont know how to hold the party together in light of these differences. I dont know how to get the people who hate liberals, who see us as the same as the GOP, on our side.
I've tried, I have nothing to show for it, and I am tired.
Well as long as you support the policies of centrist Dems you will not get them on your side because they are not on the side of those policies. There is a way to get them on side; don't support those policies. And as far as seeing these policies as the same as GOP policies; when it comes to several areas, they are. Native Americans, as we have noted from comments in this thread, have been hugely failed by the Dems. The Dems are with the GOP on almost all foreign policy, they collaborate in the Senate with the GOP all the time, they remove progressive policies from the DNC platform, they brutally suppress BLM protestors etc etc etc. It is not complicated, but there is no rhetorical trick here. If you are pro-the capitalistic exploitation of the majority of Americans by corporate interests who have broadly bipartisan support then you don't get the support of leftwingers, and if you are pro the mainstream of the Dems that is what you are for.
Okay, but same for the Centrist Dems. Why should they support a Leftist if it's not in line with their polices? Do you think a truly anti-capitalist party can win a presidential election? Do leftists have a winning coalition?
If your response to "what can we do to make you support use" is "nothing, really", then is it any surprise the Dems go running to the center?
For the record, I dont consider myself a Centrist or a Leftist. In fact I hate both those terms, they are garbage descriptions.
+5
Options
SixCaches Tweets in the mainframe cyberhexRegistered Userregular
No worries, I totally get it and absolutely know where you're coming from. Truth be told, your comment wasn't the one I was referring to for that quote chain.
Just don't tell me to smile or not be critical of the choice we have, is all.
Literally not one person has said this.
At least one person has said that a leftist's vote for Biden doesn't count if they convince their peers not to vote for him. Sounds a bit like "shut up, smile, and vote" to me.
I'm fine with saying that.
Having said it, and you having previously weighed your choices and decided: what, are you going to not vote for him now to punish me, some rando on the internet?
I mean, I was already not going to vote for him. I live in Alabama and if we're ~*talking realistically*~ as we like to do around here, my vote in the presidential election amounts to a +1 on the popular vote counter. I'm not interested in giving Biden that unless I see some very vociferous support of the policies I want not just from him but from the party apparatus in general. Currently I plan to throw some votes at local candidates, toss one to ol' Dougie J so maybe my state isn't represented by a football coach, and call it a day.
Margins matter. Our intentionally rigged system does mean that your vote in Alabama don't mean shit in terms of who gets your EC votes, it does matter as far as future presidential elections go. Even a small bump in Dem votes in a red state will get some attention and further the goal of having actual choices for leftist closer to reality.
Interestingly, because the US is politically conservative if the democrats pull something like a tea party and swing hard left we will end up with a... moderate leftist political party
All of the Trump ads and such going "BIDEN HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER BY THE RADICAL LEFT" have me like "God I fucking wish man." Lindsey Graham said that the other day and I fell out of my chair laughing.
Oh shit that reminds me.
So people have been having this problem with YouTube lately forcing Trump ads to play even if you have an ad block plugin. As far as running Firefox goes, I additionally have noscript, and haven't had any such ads play. So if you want to give the finger to Trump in a small way get that shit going for yourself.
Yes radical left joe Biden has been a fascinating take from the republicans
It makes perfect sense given the polling and Trump's limited political vocabulary. The polls say they are losing the suburbs. So Trump is trying to scare the fuck out of them because he knows no other way. Hence, "Biden is pushing a radical far left agenda and he's gonna come to the suburbs and put black kids and immigrants in your children's schools" and all that shit.
I have no empathy for people who support left-wing ideals but aren't voting democrat in American elections.
Until the Republican party is dead and buried, or you change your system to have ranked choice voting, then you are not an ally in any way that matters.
Ironically conservatives understand this. It's why they keep winning.
I meant empathy on more of a person-to-person level, like talking to that individual and figuring out where they are coming from and trying to work together from there.
No offense to Six, but I meant that in response to his comment which seemed like a general "fuck you if you don't do this" statement aimed at folks who my original comment might apply to. This comment seemed like something really similar based on my follow up. While I totally understand that anger, I think that within this thread and amongst everyone here there is a better way than that. By all means, express that rage at the Republicans and those supporting Trump. It has a just home within that space. There's a good chance that we can build in this conversation instead of bicker, though.
And like I said before, Biden is getting my vote. I agree on the need for him to win this election. It just kind of sucks that the amount of vitriol is here between folks who could be collaborating and rounding out two sides of a wholesome conversation, rather than turning them against one another.
At this point I really dont feel like the Far Left wants to be part of the Democratic collation.
Which is fine, but then wondering why they wont support your policies when you have declared them your enemy seems kinda...odd.
Same with playing the "why should I vote for Biden" game. It always feels like an excuse to complain about him. I've never seen anyone doing it with an open mind.
I would love for Leftists to be in the big tent. I just dont know what can be done to get them to join anymore, other than surrendering the party to a minority group within it. Which, is not going to happen.
If people that declare you as their enemy are people you dismiss and never court, why are we spending so much effort on trying to court Republicans who are sworn enemies of those lefty liberals?
It's largely because those Republicans have larger voting populations*. And each one you steal from the Republicans counts for two, since it's a zero sum game. I don't think Colin Powell or John Kasich are moving towards the left any faster than the moderate Dems are moving towards the right. And the Dems are moving towards the right because it turns out there are actually a non-insignificant number of NeverTrumpers joining our primaries and shutting out progressives.
I'm keenly aware of the political calculus going on here. I'm just not a fan. And if it blunts the momentum of the rightward lurch by making liberals clutch their pearls that the Left might not vote for them, good. What are the NeverTrumpers gonna do, vote for Trump? If, on the other hand, it polarizes the Dems towards the right- because the Left hurt their feelings- so far that they absorb the Republican party and the far right becomes a third party deal again, and this leaves room for an actual Leftist party? Cool.
*because they are less suppressed and disenfranchised than the Left
Interestingly, because the US is politically conservative if the democrats pull something like a tea party and swing hard left we will end up with a... moderate leftist political party
All of the Trump ads and such going "BIDEN HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER BY THE RADICAL LEFT" have me like "God I fucking wish man." Lindsey Graham said that the other day and I fell out of my chair laughing.
Oh shit that reminds me.
So people have been having this problem with YouTube lately forcing Trump ads to play even if you have an ad block plugin. As far as running Firefox goes, I additionally have noscript, and haven't had any such ads play. So if you want to give the finger to Trump in a small way get that shit going for yourself.
Yes radical left joe Biden has been a fascinating take from the republicans
During the early campaigning there were statements being made from Democrats about how they didn't want to support things because then they would be called "socialists" and such. A lot of us were yelling about how the Republicans would end up doing that anyway, and well, here we are.
Something that would gain a lot of traction right now is if the Biden / Harris campaign said, "Y'know what, since you're calling us the names anyway, we're going to change our platform a bit." It likely won't happen but god, it would actually help.
Buttegieg in one of the debates was one of the earlier candidates to say they’re literally going to call us socialist no matter who we nominate so vote for who you like
Possibly moderates know Biden is not a leftist so it won’t work on them but idk how much of a difference that will make
Kyle Griffin of MSNBC: Rep. Katie Porter says she would consider joining Joe Biden's administration and would also consider running for the Senate seat held by Kamala Harris if the Democratic ticket wins.
I can in reality vote for someone who is not Trump or Biden and doing so is not an endorsement for Trump.
It’s an endorsement insofar as it increases the likelihood of Trump winning.
Doesn't that swing both ways, though? It's not a vote for Trump so it increases the likelihood of Biden winning?
Sadly from what the data shows us in previous elections it is more likely for the base of the Dems to do this than Republicans which means it is more likely to hurt the Dem candidate. Reality tends to not match the ideal situation where choosing not to vote or voting third party would actually not hurt either candidate.
So we work in reality not the ideal.
+17
Options
jmcdonaldI voted, did you?DC(ish)Registered Userregular
I have no empathy for people who support left-wing ideals but aren't voting democrat in American elections.
Until the Republican party is dead and buried, or you change your system to have ranked choice voting, then you are not an ally in any way that matters.
Ironically conservatives understand this. It's why they keep winning.
I meant empathy on more of a person-to-person level, like talking to that individual and figuring out where they are coming from and trying to work together from there.
No offense to Six, but I meant that in response to his comment which seemed like a general "fuck you if you don't do this" statement aimed at folks who my original comment might apply to. This comment seemed like something really similar based on my follow up. While I totally understand that anger, I think that within this thread and amongst everyone here there is a better way than that. By all means, express that rage at the Republicans and those supporting Trump. It has a just home within that space. There's a good chance that we can build in this conversation instead of bicker, though.
And like I said before, Biden is getting my vote. I agree on the need for him to win this election. It just kind of sucks that the amount of vitriol is here between folks who could be collaborating and rounding out two sides of a wholesome conversation, rather than turning them against one another.
At this point I really dont feel like the Far Left wants to be part of the Democratic collation.
Which is fine, but then wondering why they wont support your policies when you have declared them your enemy seems kinda...odd.
Same with playing the "why should I vote for Biden" game. It always feels like an excuse to complain about him. I've never seen anyone doing it with an open mind.
I would love for Leftists to be in the big tent. I just dont know what can be done to get them to join anymore, other than surrendering the party to a minority group within it. Which, is not going to happen.
If people that declare you as their enemy are people you dismiss and never court, why are we spending so much effort on trying to court Republicans who are sworn enemies of those lefty liberals?
It's largely because those Republicans have larger voting populations*. And each one you steal from the Republicans counts for two, since it's a zero sum game. I don't think Colin Powell or John Kasich are moving towards the left any faster than the moderate Dems are moving towards the right. And the Dems are moving towards the right because it turns out there are actually a non-insignificant number of NeverTrumpers joining our primaries and shutting out progressives.
I'm keenly aware of the political calculus going on here. I'm just not a fan. And if it blunts the momentum of the rightward lurch by making liberals clutch their pearls that the Left might not vote for them, good. What are the NeverTrumpers gonna do, vote for Trump? If, on the other hand, it polarizes the Dems towards the right- because the Left hurt their feelings- so far that they absorb the Republican party and the far right becomes a third party deal again, and this leaves room for an actual Leftist party? Cool.
*because they are less suppressed and disenfranchised than the Left
This assumes that there would be “room left for a leftist party” and the evidence does not support that assertion.
I can in reality vote for someone who is not Trump or Biden and doing so is not an endorsement for Trump.
It’s an endorsement insofar as it increases the likelihood of Trump winning.
Doesn't that swing both ways, though? It's not a vote for Trump so it increases the likelihood of Biden winning?
Not in a first-past-the-post electoral system.
Edit: It would be nice if we had a system where you could vote for candidate C. We don’t have that system right now.
I would say that, technically, not voting/3rd part voting in our system is support for whoever ends up winning.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Kyle Griffin of MSNBC: Rep. Katie Porter says she would consider joining Joe Biden's administration and would also consider running for the Senate seat held by Kamala Harris if the Democratic ticket wins.
The special election to replace Harris if Biden wins is going to be a hell of a thing. There are probably a half dozen strong Democratic candidates.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I think almost everybody here feels that it’s exhausting to drag the millions of people who don’t 100% agree with us towards what we feel is shared progress and benefits.
The divergence is where we stop acknowledging the worth of parts of those millions of people. I live in a southern state. I’ve seen numerous calls to just let the South secede as if Mississippi and Georgia were all old, conservative white people. I see the appeal of that, because it’s so goddamned frustrating to trudge along when you badly want to run as far and as fast as you can to something better, and the idea that if you just jettisoned some of these fucking people you could have it all is tantalizing.
But the end point of a society that cares for everybody isn’t standing alone in the clearing where everything is in perfect alignment and there is no disagreement. It’s a clustered, awful mass of arguing where everybody just happens to be safe and secure, because we agree that everybody deserves that. It’s a big tent full of all the stupid idiosyncrasies humans carry inside themselves.
It is going to be slow. It has always been slow. The move towards anything resembling a just society has started moving faster and it’s still infuriatingly slow.
But that can be a relief, too. None of us is the first to try and make things better, either. We’re links in a chain that stretches back beyond human remembrance, and the best we can do is to fight as hard as those who came before us, while acknowledging that we are likely to die with our work incomplete, hopefully having produced new generations who consider us barbarians.
We can never accept settling, but we can’t let our frustration with our extreme distance from what society should be stop us from taking steps in that direction. Doing so makes the world worse for people living today and tomorrow, and also burns you the hell out, essentially leaving a kind-hearted person as a fairly useless cynic. And we can’t afford to lose people, because there’s a long way to go.
Basically Warren's protege and replacement when she inevitably leaves us.
THIS IS 2020! YOU SHUT YOUR GODDAMN MOUTH!
Viskod on
+14
Options
SixCaches Tweets in the mainframe cyberhexRegistered Userregular
The unfortunate reality is that if you are eligible to vote and you vote for anyone but Biden or don’t vote at all, then you are increasing the likelihood that Trump wins.
That doesn’t mean you have to like it, or Biden, or anything else, or that you SHOULD like it or be happy about it. It’s simply a reality. if you understand this and choose not to vote for him, you’re making the choice to support Donald Trump.
In March 2020, she used five minutes of questioning to get the chief of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Robert R. Redfield, to agree to use its legal authority to make testing for the COVID-19 virus free for all Americans.
She has also attracted attention for her questioning on the House Financial Services Committee. In March 2019, her questioning caught Wells Fargo CEO Tim Sloan contradicting what his corporate lawyers were arguing in court, in that statements he had previously made pledging transparency were "corporate puffery", according to documents lawyers submitted.
In April 2019, Porter drew attention for her questioning of JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon about how a Chase bank teller should make up a $567 shortfall between her monthly budget and her paycheck.
In May 2019, she asked Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson about "REOs", real-estate owned properties, which he confused with Oreo cookies.
She also asked Consumer Financial Protection Bureau director Kathy Kraninger to solve some math problems about annual percentage rates on payday loans, which Kraninger declined to do.
It would appear she's someone who does her homework before questioning.
+23
Options
zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
I can in reality vote for someone who is not Trump or Biden and doing so is not an endorsement for Trump.
It’s an endorsement insofar as it increases the likelihood of Trump winning.
Doesn't that swing both ways, though? It's not a vote for Trump so it increases the likelihood of Biden winning?
Sadly from what the data shows us in previous elections it is more likely for the base of the Dems to do this than Republicans which means it is more likely to hurt the Dem candidate. Reality tends to not match the ideal situation where choosing not to vote or voting third party would actually not hurt either candidate.
So we work in reality not the ideal.
A vote for a third party is half a vote for trump. If you don’t want trump as president vote for Biden. That’s the only choice. Far leftists voting for a 3rd party are voting for trump. It’s aggressive but it’s the truth of the matter.
joe biden is but a man, and is unable to do ought but cut and limit social services because the the dEfIcIt exploded from tax cuts, the one constant in the universe
perhaps, if we the american people simply did not fail him by refusing to love and support him unconditionally he would not need to make this terrible choice
Nobody here has said this. I understand being despondent but it's not a reason to resort to intellectual dishonesty.
what is an acceptable condition for not supporting joe biden?
When someone so dangerous as Trump ain't running.
Look, I ain't entirely opposed to a leftist revolution. Most likely we will need to do some kind of revolution to escape the capitalism sinkhole whirlpool we're drowning it. But this isn't the time for that. Everybody will lose of Trump wins the election.
So never then, because the Republican Party isn’t going away no matter how much people wish, and they’ll keep throwing up absolute trash like Tom Cotton and Josh Hawley until the end of time, and they’ll all be existential threats to the US.
That's a real possibility. I dunno what to do about it. I'm voting Biden to stave of another civil war and hope something happens to avoid that very nightmare you mentioned.
i take umbrage with the constant framing of having to make this choice as a failure of the individual voter, as if dem leadership has no agency, as if this situation appeared suddenly from the ether, and was as immutable as the stone
if joe biden thinks it's more worth it to shoot for suburban republican voters than literally everyone under 45, sure let him make that choice
maybe it'll even work
This gets banged on pretty constantly - You can look at Bidens nomination as a failure of the Democratic electorate, a failure of the left to convince the democratic primary voters to support one of their own or a failure of the DNC for essentially being more in line with centrism.
But ultimately this string of failures ends at the convention - the nominee is picked along with their running mate and there's no unpicking them. Rules of the game.
Put bluntly, this ticket is chocolate and peanut butter (two great tastes that taste great together) in the same tasty ticket for a number of forumers that is within the margin of error of 0.
The people here arguing here and elsewhere to vote for this ticket now are no longer presenting the platonic ideal but your best option because this is a two party system where you can either endorse Donald Trump or not.
You endorse him if you choose not to vote, you endorse him if you vote for him, you endorse him if you vote for someone besides Joe Biden. Blue state, purple state or red state. Not voting for Biden is saying that your ire for Trump did not move you to vote for his only viable replacement.
It's a shitty system that basically only recognizes one type of input (voting) and it's a binary choice.
The system can be changed but you'll never change it without first co opting it, short of violent revolution.
I was reductive of others in a different post (in response to someone else being reductive of others) but it's hard to rehash the same exact debate when this is the political reality.
The only non violent choice left to you is this November and there's only two options - as an atheist I'll borrow a phrase and say make your peace with God, whichever you choose.
100% reject this.
I can in reality vote for someone who is not Trump or Biden and doing so is not an endorsement for Trump.
1992, 2000, 2016 and approaching this with a semblance of logic say no, you can't.
Only 2 people can win in November.
Only voting for Biden counts as an affirmative action against Trump.
Hamilton wasn't hoping that the bullet was going to land on Burrs head.
RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
Come Overwatch with meeeee
In March 2020, she used five minutes of questioning to get the chief of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Robert R. Redfield, to agree to use its legal authority to make testing for the COVID-19 virus free for all Americans.
She has also attracted attention for her questioning on the House Financial Services Committee. In March 2019, her questioning caught Wells Fargo CEO Tim Sloan contradicting what his corporate lawyers were arguing in court, in that statements he had previously made pledging transparency were "corporate puffery", according to documents lawyers submitted.
In April 2019, Porter drew attention for her questioning of JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon about how a Chase bank teller should make up a $567 shortfall between her monthly budget and her paycheck.
In May 2019, she asked Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson about "REOs", real-estate owned properties, which he confused with Oreo cookies.
She also asked Consumer Financial Protection Bureau director Kathy Kraninger to solve some math problems about annual percentage rates on payday loans, which Kraninger declined to do.
It would appear she's someone who does her homework before questioning.
Porter is the only member of Congress who can say something ridiculous like "I hope the Postmaster General comes prepared. I know I will." and have it not be ridiculous.
In March 2020, she used five minutes of questioning to get the chief of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Robert R. Redfield, to agree to use its legal authority to make testing for the COVID-19 virus free for all Americans.
She has also attracted attention for her questioning on the House Financial Services Committee. In March 2019, her questioning caught Wells Fargo CEO Tim Sloan contradicting what his corporate lawyers were arguing in court, in that statements he had previously made pledging transparency were "corporate puffery", according to documents lawyers submitted.
In April 2019, Porter drew attention for her questioning of JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon about how a Chase bank teller should make up a $567 shortfall between her monthly budget and her paycheck.
In May 2019, she asked Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson about "REOs", real-estate owned properties, which he confused with Oreo cookies.
She also asked Consumer Financial Protection Bureau director Kathy Kraninger to solve some math problems about annual percentage rates on payday loans, which Kraninger declined to do.
It would appear she's someone who does her homework before questioning.
Porter is the only member of Congress who can say something ridiculous like "I hope the Postmaster General comes prepared. I know I will." and have it not be ridiculous.
In government parlance we call this catching a congressional. And the Postmaster Gernal catching it is hilarious. This is going to absorb so much of his time.
Clarification. To me, a "tent" is not directly analogous to a Capital Letter political party. I view a "tent" as a collection of people who generally agree with each other WRT overall political beliefs and philosophy. Thus it makes no sense to ask leftist to join the centrist liberal tent. Ask them to pitch their tent on this side of presidential elections based on depressing pragmatism, but that's mostly it. Maybe convince some to keep that tent here to influence the Dem party.
I don't post interviews much but I think Bernie in this video does a good job of explaining why everyone should vote. Even leftist and progressive. Why its important. Why no matter how "safe" your state is this is a year to vote. And that you also keep pushing. And keep putting people in during primaries that are more progressive. The more you put folks like AOC in through primaries the more the party will move with you. But also realize you need to win the general as well.
But yeah. Vote. Get your friends to vote. Family to vote. Coworkers to vote. Yeah. Sorry got off on a tangent. But yeah the interview by Trevor is good. And even as Bernie points out, winning the election is just the first step.
I still think y'all would be much better off if you change your approach when a left-leaning person comes in here with doubts about voting for Biden because his policies in the past have hurt a whole lot of people. Saying "Vote for Biden because Trump will do bad things and if you don't you're also bad" won't work. In their eyes, Biden has already done a ton of damage and set the stage for our current situation, and insulting them because some of those things are a bridge too far definitely won't win them over.
You should instead say "Consider voting for Biden because he's adopted Bernie's policy on free college for students from families making under $125,000" or "Vote for Biden because he's listened and made his climate change policy much more aggressive, with additional spending and reducing his target date from 2050 to 2035" or other examples of where he's done this.
Will it be enough to sway them? Who knows!?! Probably not, but aren't y'all the ones saying you want every vote you can get? Why keep taking this approach of hostility that clearly isn't bringing people in over and over again.
You guys are quick to say he's moved left without giving examples and instead to just doomsay and insult. If you want the left on your side, change your approach and your messaging, because you guys are VERY hostile about any dissent toward Biden. It took me arguing for multiple pages earlier looking for examples of where he's moved left to even get one person to say anything specific, and then the ACTUAL policy that would be convincing to the left (the free public college one I mentioned above) I dug up for myself while trying to read up on the other policy (a very complicated, very centrist dem plan to help people with existing student loans that does provide some relief but is a definite half-measure).
Saying "I dunno read the website" or linking to the 100+ page Biden/Sanders task-force document without any analysis whatsoever will not bring people over.
Wait, I think I know this one: "It's not my job to educate you."
+2
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
For a second there I thought you were going to say "Get your dog to vote." Trump was actually using that as a talking point against mail-in voting, unironically. I think it was on Hannity.
For a second there I thought you were going to say "Get your dog to vote." Trump was actually using that as a talking point against mail-in voting, unironically. I think it was on Hannity.
My dog is a huge homophobe so... I’m just going to let her sleep through the election
One thing I do want to point out as a Southerner is that, while the DNC platform may not scream ‘Radical change and revolution!’ to everybody here, I can assure you that the world promised in those documents still sounds like a fantasyland to many of those in the world I grew up in.
If you live in a place that doesn’t feel decades behind major cities, the change may appear incremental. For at least a large chunk of those I grew up with, even those who share my political sensibilities, the change described is absolutely transformative from the current day to day experiences. Genuinely unimaginable.
Again, that’s not saying to settle, that’s saying to understand that the context in which you develop shapes your expectations, and a lot of our allies developed in a context defined by conservative ideologies and casual, unchallengeable oppression. Suggesting any change at all is possible is radical entirely on its own, for some.
Interestingly, because the US is politically conservative if the democrats pull something like a tea party and swing hard left we will end up with a... moderate leftist political party
All of the Trump ads and such going "BIDEN HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER BY THE RADICAL LEFT" have me like "God I fucking wish man." Lindsey Graham said that the other day and I fell out of my chair laughing.
Oh shit that reminds me.
So people have been having this problem with YouTube lately forcing Trump ads to play even if you have an ad block plugin. As far as running Firefox goes, I additionally have noscript, and haven't had any such ads play. So if you want to give the finger to Trump in a small way get that shit going for yourself.
Yes radical left joe Biden has been a fascinating take from the republicans
If only someone had been Plenty Bold enough to warn us this would happen no matter who won the nom
It would appear even FOX is calling Biden's speech excellent, disproving any claims by Trump that he's mentally shot.
That the Republican propoganda machine is apparently schizophrenic when it comes to Trump is interesting. Says that some party leaders, donors, and lobbyist are doubtful about Trump's chances. If he loses I expect Trump to get George Dubyad.
No, don't do this! I was sure Michigan was not a swing state and didn't work as hard as I should have four years ago.
Just another "no, don't do this!"
Indiana swung blue in 2008 for Obama. The INGOP's done a lot since then to try and make sure that won't happen again, but I've not memory-hole'd that election, and I don't think anyone who feels their state is a "safe" color should fuck around n find out (if you will).
Interestingly, because the US is politically conservative if the democrats pull something like a tea party and swing hard left we will end up with a... moderate leftist political party
All of the Trump ads and such going "BIDEN HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER BY THE RADICAL LEFT" have me like "God I fucking wish man." Lindsey Graham said that the other day and I fell out of my chair laughing.
Oh shit that reminds me.
So people have been having this problem with YouTube lately forcing Trump ads to play even if you have an ad block plugin. As far as running Firefox goes, I additionally have noscript, and haven't had any such ads play. So if you want to give the finger to Trump in a small way get that shit going for yourself.
Yes radical left joe Biden has been a fascinating take from the republicans
If only someone had been Plenty Bold enough to warn us this would happen no matter who won the nom
This whole board was saying that
The Republican game plan is not really a surprise.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
No, don't do this! I was sure Michigan was not a swing state and didn't work as hard as I should have four years ago.
Just another "no, don't do this!"
Indiana swung blue in 2008 for Obama. The INGOP's done a lot since then to try and make sure that won't happen again, but I've not memory-hole'd that election, and I don't think anyone who feels their state is a "safe" color should fuck around n find out (if you will).
Also it can effect down-ticket races.
Also it’s nice to be able to tell the grandkids that you did what you could to stop actual, literal fascism.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
“The filibuster is gone,” said Harry Reid, the influential former Senate majority leader and a friend of Biden. “It’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when it’s going to go … Next year at this time, it will be gone.”
Posts
Okay, but same for the Centrist Dems. Why should they support a Leftist if it's not in line with their polices? Do you think a truly anti-capitalist party can win a presidential election? Do leftists have a winning coalition?
If your response to "what can we do to make you support use" is "nothing, really", then is it any surprise the Dems go running to the center?
For the record, I dont consider myself a Centrist or a Leftist. In fact I hate both those terms, they are garbage descriptions.
Not in a first-past-the-post electoral system.
Edit: It would be nice if we had a system where you could vote for candidate C. We don’t have that system right now.
No worries, I totally get it and absolutely know where you're coming from. Truth be told, your comment wasn't the one I was referring to for that quote chain.
Margins matter. Our intentionally rigged system does mean that your vote in Alabama don't mean shit in terms of who gets your EC votes, it does matter as far as future presidential elections go. Even a small bump in Dem votes in a red state will get some attention and further the goal of having actual choices for leftist closer to reality.
It makes perfect sense given the polling and Trump's limited political vocabulary. The polls say they are losing the suburbs. So Trump is trying to scare the fuck out of them because he knows no other way. Hence, "Biden is pushing a radical far left agenda and he's gonna come to the suburbs and put black kids and immigrants in your children's schools" and all that shit.
If people that declare you as their enemy are people you dismiss and never court, why are we spending so much effort on trying to court Republicans who are sworn enemies of those lefty liberals?
It's largely because those Republicans have larger voting populations*. And each one you steal from the Republicans counts for two, since it's a zero sum game. I don't think Colin Powell or John Kasich are moving towards the left any faster than the moderate Dems are moving towards the right. And the Dems are moving towards the right because it turns out there are actually a non-insignificant number of NeverTrumpers joining our primaries and shutting out progressives.
I'm keenly aware of the political calculus going on here. I'm just not a fan. And if it blunts the momentum of the rightward lurch by making liberals clutch their pearls that the Left might not vote for them, good. What are the NeverTrumpers gonna do, vote for Trump? If, on the other hand, it polarizes the Dems towards the right- because the Left hurt their feelings- so far that they absorb the Republican party and the far right becomes a third party deal again, and this leaves room for an actual Leftist party? Cool.
*because they are less suppressed and disenfranchised than the Left
Buttegieg in one of the debates was one of the earlier candidates to say they’re literally going to call us socialist no matter who we nominate so vote for who you like
Possibly moderates know Biden is not a leftist so it won’t work on them but idk how much of a difference that will make
Why that'd be... that'd be just fine.
Sadly from what the data shows us in previous elections it is more likely for the base of the Dems to do this than Republicans which means it is more likely to hurt the Dem candidate. Reality tends to not match the ideal situation where choosing not to vote or voting third party would actually not hurt either candidate.
So we work in reality not the ideal.
This assumes that there would be “room left for a leftist party” and the evidence does not support that assertion.
No, don't do this! I was sure Michigan was not a swing state and didn't work as hard as I should have four years ago.
I would say that, technically, not voting/3rd part voting in our system is support for whoever ends up winning.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
The special election to replace Harris if Biden wins is going to be a hell of a thing. There are probably a half dozen strong Democratic candidates.
The divergence is where we stop acknowledging the worth of parts of those millions of people. I live in a southern state. I’ve seen numerous calls to just let the South secede as if Mississippi and Georgia were all old, conservative white people. I see the appeal of that, because it’s so goddamned frustrating to trudge along when you badly want to run as far and as fast as you can to something better, and the idea that if you just jettisoned some of these fucking people you could have it all is tantalizing.
But the end point of a society that cares for everybody isn’t standing alone in the clearing where everything is in perfect alignment and there is no disagreement. It’s a clustered, awful mass of arguing where everybody just happens to be safe and secure, because we agree that everybody deserves that. It’s a big tent full of all the stupid idiosyncrasies humans carry inside themselves.
It is going to be slow. It has always been slow. The move towards anything resembling a just society has started moving faster and it’s still infuriatingly slow.
But that can be a relief, too. None of us is the first to try and make things better, either. We’re links in a chain that stretches back beyond human remembrance, and the best we can do is to fight as hard as those who came before us, while acknowledging that we are likely to die with our work incomplete, hopefully having produced new generations who consider us barbarians.
We can never accept settling, but we can’t let our frustration with our extreme distance from what society should be stop us from taking steps in that direction. Doing so makes the world worse for people living today and tomorrow, and also burns you the hell out, essentially leaving a kind-hearted person as a fairly useless cynic. And we can’t afford to lose people, because there’s a long way to go.
Basically Warren's protege and replacement when she inevitably leaves us.
Yes please.
THIS IS 2020! YOU SHUT YOUR GODDAMN MOUTH!
That doesn’t mean you have to like it, or Biden, or anything else, or that you SHOULD like it or be happy about it. It’s simply a reality. if you understand this and choose not to vote for him, you’re making the choice to support Donald Trump.
Again: it sucks. But it’s the reality we’re in.
From Wikipedia:
It would appear she's someone who does her homework before questioning.
Fair
That's a real possibility. I dunno what to do about it. I'm voting Biden to stave of another civil war and hope something happens to avoid that very nightmare you mentioned.
1992, 2000, 2016 and approaching this with a semblance of logic say no, you can't.
Only 2 people can win in November.
Only voting for Biden counts as an affirmative action against Trump.
Hamilton wasn't hoping that the bullet was going to land on Burrs head.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
Porter is the only member of Congress who can say something ridiculous like "I hope the Postmaster General comes prepared. I know I will." and have it not be ridiculous.
And has the confidence to actually do that:
But yeah. Vote. Get your friends to vote. Family to vote. Coworkers to vote. Yeah. Sorry got off on a tangent. But yeah the interview by Trevor is good. And even as Bernie points out, winning the election is just the first step.
Wait, I think I know this one: "It's not my job to educate you."
My dog is a huge homophobe so... I’m just going to let her sleep through the election
If you live in a place that doesn’t feel decades behind major cities, the change may appear incremental. For at least a large chunk of those I grew up with, even those who share my political sensibilities, the change described is absolutely transformative from the current day to day experiences. Genuinely unimaginable.
Again, that’s not saying to settle, that’s saying to understand that the context in which you develop shapes your expectations, and a lot of our allies developed in a context defined by conservative ideologies and casual, unchallengeable oppression. Suggesting any change at all is possible is radical entirely on its own, for some.
If only someone had been Plenty Bold enough to warn us this would happen no matter who won the nom
That the Republican propoganda machine is apparently schizophrenic when it comes to Trump is interesting. Says that some party leaders, donors, and lobbyist are doubtful about Trump's chances. If he loses I expect Trump to get George Dubyad.
Just another "no, don't do this!"
Indiana swung blue in 2008 for Obama. The INGOP's done a lot since then to try and make sure that won't happen again, but I've not memory-hole'd that election, and I don't think anyone who feels their state is a "safe" color should fuck around n find out (if you will).
This whole board was saying that
The Republican game plan is not really a surprise.
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
Also it can effect down-ticket races.
Also it’s nice to be able to tell the grandkids that you did what you could to stop actual, literal fascism.
This seems promising, but is still contingent on actually winning the Senate.