And now Biden's being asked by a left-wing progressive college student how voting for him won't damage the progressive movement.
Biden's rattling off the incremental changes he wants to make, in schools and other things.
I mean it probably will somewhat damage the progressive movement to have Biden as President, but one hell of a lot less than having Trump as President.
Damage how? Like what's the framing here? How does having a democrat left leaning president hurt a movement for leftists?
I mean he's not going to push a full progressive agenda. He'll do some of the stuff, and is unlikely to undo existing progressive stuff. SCOTUS will undo as much as it can, though.
I feel like that's very much not "damaging the progressive movement", though. He's likely to implement some percentage of the desired policies of most people who count themselves as progressive and voting for him removes one of the most incredibly vile roadblocks to progressive policy that has ever existed. It's not possible to create a way that's a negative for the movement to implement progressive policies.
I mean hell voting for him raises the odds that human life will continue to cling to earth in 50 years. Not doing it lowers the chance not only that we implement progressive policy but that we you know are around.
Edit: I also want to ban fracking!
Not voting for Biden means that not only will fracking not be banned, no other environmental policy will exist in the US.
Like the past 4 years has been very bad for environmental policy. Another 4 years and we will literally no longer have national parks or any restrictions on oil exploration or any clean air or water policy or... I mean it's not a contest for this particular choice. There's no progressive policy position you can take that will be better off if he loses no matter how bad you think he is on it. It's just the bind we're in right now.
Trump, asked to denounce/disavow QAnon, says he knows nothing about it, then adds, "I do know they are very much against pedophilia. They fight it very hard." Bonkers.
Guthrie: "But there is not a satanic pedophile cult."
Trump: "I have no idea."
Guthrie: "You don't know that?"
Trump: "No I don't know that. And neither do you know that."
Remember when they pretended Trump had denounced QAnon?
Edit: Yup, Trump is just doubling down on all his conspiracy theories.
Trump challenged on his retweet of the bonkers conspiracy theory about Obama, Seal Team Six and Osama bin Laden: "That was a RETWEET. That was an opinion of somebody. And that was a retweet. I'll put it out there. People can decide."
Trump is incapable of shooting himself in the foot even with the most softball questions possible.
This is arguable the most mewling possible response "I'm not saying it's true, I'm just signal boosting this ridiculous notion (that I don't know if it's true) so that other people can form an opinion of."
Like either you believe it or you don't. Take a position and deal with the consequences thereof you pathetic manchild.
I thought it was supposed to be biden answering questions from citizens and not arguing with George about the media's desired talking points
It was always going to be this as it’s a media event
The best case we can hope for is that the individual answers and questions are less important than people seeing what a normal functioning empathetic human being looks like, contrasting with the bizzare shitshow of trump looking and sounding weird and suggesting that there might be pedophile cannibals who knows
Prohass on
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Blackhawk1313Demon Hunter for HireTime RiftRegistered Userregular
AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
edited October 2020
Now the son of Reagan's Secretary of Transportation asking about civility and bipartisanship.
Biden: "You can question their judgement, not their motive."
He also says he doesn't hold grudges, and is stressing listening to the other guy.
Edit: He believes there would be between 4-8 Republican senators who would be willing to work across the aisle, with no vindictive leadership over them.
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
Is anyone actually watching trump? Does he sound like he drank a bag of gravel or does he sound like he's actually on the mend? I'm not watching either of these, cause I treasure my tv not having a mug of tea tossed through it, but I do want to hear if he's having a bad go of it or not.
Is anyone actually watching trump? Does he sound like he drank a bag of gravel or does he sound like he's actually on the mend? I'm not watching either of these, cause I treasure my tv not having a mug of tea tossed through it, but I do want to hear if he's having a bad go of it or not.
Yeah that's pretty much all I'm doing when I hear him talk now, listening for evidence he's going to take a bad turn.
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
This is such a weird worry when looking at the state of the party today versus fucking 2008, much less any earlier period.
I mean maaaaybe the 70's if we're talking economic policy? Unions in the US were stronger and they were solidly Democratic so I feel like you got better policy on that side of things, a larger portion of Bernie-ish Democratic Senators.
But like fucking hell there's no period between 1980 and today that I'd consider the party more progressive.
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
But biden is running on policies from the left? Like he has GOP people supporting him against Trump, but his policies are not right wing. He's to the left of Obama even, and Harris his VP is even more progressive.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
I mean unfortunately due to the way things are gerrymandered and voter suppression, and voter demographics, it really is necessary at this point. Like I don’t know if it’s a winning strategy but it has to form a part of your strategy or you have no chance
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
what if it is the winning strategy.
then we're left with one conservative party and one blood-and-soil death cult party, and nobody in office to advocate for anything left of center-right
i have no problem letting the Democratic party become the de facto conservative party if they can be replaced by an actual leftist party, but that ain't happening anytime soon
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
what if it is the winning strategy.
then we're left with one conservative party and one blood-and-soil death cult party, and nobody in office to advocate for anything left of center-right
i have no problem letting the Democratic party become the de facto conservative party if they can be replaced by an actual leftist party, but that ain't happening anytime soon
I cannot imagine anyone think of the Democrats as a conservative party, even in a future where a national unity party emerges.
Fracking = "I want to win key swing states that are vital for a majority in the EC"
I mean, he had the right answer in there - stop oil subsidies, cap uncapped wells.
Let economics take care of the rest. Oil and coal will wither and die on their own if we don't keep pumping billions into them to keep them competitive.
Not voting for Biden means that not only will fracking not be banned, no other environmental policy will exist in the US.
Like the past 4 years has been very bad for environmental policy. Another 4 years and we will literally no longer have national parks or any restrictions on oil exploration or any clean air or water policy or... I mean it's not a contest for this particular choice. There's no progressive policy position you can take that will be better off if he loses no matter how bad you think he is on it. It's just the bind we're in right now.
Yes I hope Biden wins instead of Trump. I voted for Biden even though it doesn't really matter because he's definitely winning Virginia. That has absolutely nothing to do with the point I am making. I'm not watching the town hall so I don't know what the question asker's deal is.
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
what if it is the winning strategy.
Then we're fucked because surviving climate change is incompatible with appeasing Republicans.
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
But biden is running on policies from the left? Like he has GOP people supporting him against Trump, but his policies are not right wing. He's to the left of Obama even, and Harris his VP is even more progressive.
Yeah, wasn't it Biden that pushed Obama on gay marriage? But that is the root of the concern, from what I've read/heard.
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
what if it is the winning strategy.
then we're left with one conservative party and one blood-and-soil death cult party, and nobody in office to advocate for anything left of center-right
i have no problem letting the Democratic party become the de facto conservative party if they can be replaced by an actual leftist party, but that ain't happening anytime soon
The current Democratic Party is significantly further left by any measure than any previous incarnation anyone here has been able to vote for. If they're becoming anything, it's not the fucking Tories.
The Dems are winning in a variety of races by highlighting a variety of policies, but significantly they're winning because progressive policy is generally real popular in the US. Unfortunately, so is virulent racism and our electoral system is terrible and we have a whole party dedicated to making sure people can't vote so it's an even fight instead of an obvious blowout.
Honestly, banning fracking isn't how you get rid of fracking anyways, because all that stuff can get reversed under the next person. You fund the alternatives until they undercut it so much that fracking is no longer profitable, no matter what regulations they get rid of. That's what finally killed coal(via fracking). Even with the most pro coal president in history, rolling back every regulation they can find, trying to work sweetheart deals, coal is terminal. There have been numerous massive coal plants(1000 MW+ multiple units) that are co-located at mine sites - cheaper to ship electrons than rocks - that utilities have shut down after having tried to literally give them away for free.
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
what if it is the winning strategy.
Then we're fucked because surviving climate change is incompatible with appeasing Republicans.
Stopping fracking isn't going to solve climate change on it's own. You need an aggressive multi-pronged strategy with buy in from Congress to even hope of taking the drastic action needed. You cannot do that if you don't have power. Winning swing states is how you give yourself that power to tackle the issue (of which fracking is one minor facet).
right but i was replying to the hypothetical that catering to Republicans and conservatives in general is the winning strategy, and Democrats shifting their strategy to cater to them. In that hypothetical, how does that not result in the Democratic party regressing and moving right in order to continue courting wayward Republicans?
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
But biden is running on policies from the left? Like he has GOP people supporting him against Trump, but his policies are not right wing. He's to the left of Obama even, and Harris his VP is even more progressive.
I think the biggest risk is if people think a Trump loss means the mission is accomplished. A Trump loss is a vital necessity but many people will get complacent, I think.
It's a town hall, it's a place for people with anxieties to ask the president to reassure their anxieties. The question from a self-described progressive is no dumber or smarter than any other question that gets asked at these things.
Questions can be bad, that other questions are equally bad doesn't make something that doesn't make sense a good question. I mean I'd say the same if someone asked Biden how can his presidency prevent aliens from invading.
I'd like to know how someone believes electing Biden harms progressives.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
But biden is running on policies from the left? Like he has GOP people supporting him against Trump, but his policies are not right wing. He's to the left of Obama even, and Harris his VP is even more progressive.
I think the biggest risk is if people think a Trump loss means the mission is accomplished. A Trump loss is a vital necessity but many people will get complacent, I think.
That's the risk in anything, but that's not on Biden specifically. That's on democrats and voters, like what fucked Obama when in 2010 everyone just meh'd out and let the GOP take control.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
right but i was replying to the hypothetical that catering to Republicans and conservatives in general is the winning strategy, and Democrats shifting their strategy to cater to them. In that hypothetical, how does that not result in the Democratic party regressing and moving right in order to continue courting wayward Republicans?
Because the only reason the Dems need to do this is that the electoral system is skewed heavily towards the Republicans.
Gaining power give an opportunity to address this; it doesn't mean Dems are bound to forever acquiesce to those Republicans endlessly into the future.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
=/ I know Biden's trying, but he tripped a bit over that transgender protection question. He was trying to be supportive, especially to transgender persons of color, but his stutter came on hard as his mind tried to think of the right words to say, and it came out a bit cringy/muddy. Heart's in the right place, but that'll upset some people.
right but i was replying to the hypothetical that catering to Republicans and conservatives in general is the winning strategy, and Democrats shifting their strategy to cater to them. In that hypothetical, how does that not result in the Democratic party regressing and moving right in order to continue courting wayward Republicans?
Because the only reason the Dems need to do this is that the electoral system is skewed heavily towards the Republicans.
Gaining power give an opportunity to address this; it doesn't mean Dems are bound to forever acquiesce to those Republicans endlessly into the future.
Right, the best result of a Dem wave is the ability to do things like un-fuck Texas's voting system to the point that it's no longer considered "deep red" but is you know actually reflective of the people living in it.
right but i was replying to the hypothetical that catering to Republicans and conservatives in general is the winning strategy, and Democrats shifting their strategy to cater to them. In that hypothetical, how does that not result in the Democratic party regressing and moving right in order to continue courting wayward Republicans?
They are shifting their messaging strategy. Biden's climate strategy will not do good things for fracking.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
It’s just a soybean Michael what could it cost? Twenty dollars?
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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I feel like that's very much not "damaging the progressive movement", though. He's likely to implement some percentage of the desired policies of most people who count themselves as progressive and voting for him removes one of the most incredibly vile roadblocks to progressive policy that has ever existed. It's not possible to create a way that's a negative for the movement to implement progressive policies.
I mean hell voting for him raises the odds that human life will continue to cling to earth in 50 years. Not doing it lowers the chance not only that we implement progressive policy but that we you know are around.
Edit: I also want to ban fracking!
Not voting for Biden means that not only will fracking not be banned, no other environmental policy will exist in the US.
Like the past 4 years has been very bad for environmental policy. Another 4 years and we will literally no longer have national parks or any restrictions on oil exploration or any clean air or water policy or... I mean it's not a contest for this particular choice. There's no progressive policy position you can take that will be better off if he loses no matter how bad you think he is on it. It's just the bind we're in right now.
To be fair, "shoot em in the leg" would still be an improvement over the current "shoot em in the back" policy. But it's still not a good answer, no.
He also talked about having social workers and psychologists in regards to deescalation.
This is arguable the most mewling possible response "I'm not saying it's true, I'm just signal boosting this ridiculous notion (that I don't know if it's true) so that other people can form an opinion of."
Like either you believe it or you don't. Take a position and deal with the consequences thereof you pathetic manchild.
It was always going to be this as it’s a media event
The best case we can hope for is that the individual answers and questions are less important than people seeing what a normal functioning empathetic human being looks like, contrasting with the bizzare shitshow of trump looking and sounding weird and suggesting that there might be pedophile cannibals who knows
Media gonna Media. Good on Biden for putting it back on Republican actions in terms of giving a court packing answer.
Biden: "You can question their judgement, not their motive."
He also says he doesn't hold grudges, and is stressing listening to the other guy.
Edit: He believes there would be between 4-8 Republican senators who would be willing to work across the aisle, with no vindictive leadership over them.
... ooh boy, we need to get rid of McConnell.
I think it stems from the attempts to win over Republicans upset with Trump. The concern is, if Biden wins the presidency, the Democrats will believe that is the winning strategy and begin catering more to the right and Republicans rather than progressives and the left leaning portion of the party.
Yeah that's pretty much all I'm doing when I hear him talk now, listening for evidence he's going to take a bad turn.
This is such a weird worry when looking at the state of the party today versus fucking 2008, much less any earlier period.
I mean maaaaybe the 70's if we're talking economic policy? Unions in the US were stronger and they were solidly Democratic so I feel like you got better policy on that side of things, a larger portion of Bernie-ish Democratic Senators.
But like fucking hell there's no period between 1980 and today that I'd consider the party more progressive.
But biden is running on policies from the left? Like he has GOP people supporting him against Trump, but his policies are not right wing. He's to the left of Obama even, and Harris his VP is even more progressive.
pleasepaypreacher.net
what if it is the winning strategy.
then we're left with one conservative party and one blood-and-soil death cult party, and nobody in office to advocate for anything left of center-right
i have no problem letting the Democratic party become the de facto conservative party if they can be replaced by an actual leftist party, but that ain't happening anytime soon
I cannot imagine anyone think of the Democrats as a conservative party, even in a future where a national unity party emerges.
I mean, he had the right answer in there - stop oil subsidies, cap uncapped wells.
Let economics take care of the rest. Oil and coal will wither and die on their own if we don't keep pumping billions into them to keep them competitive.
Then we're fucked because surviving climate change is incompatible with appeasing Republicans.
Yeah, wasn't it Biden that pushed Obama on gay marriage? But that is the root of the concern, from what I've read/heard.
The current Democratic Party is significantly further left by any measure than any previous incarnation anyone here has been able to vote for. If they're becoming anything, it's not the fucking Tories.
The Dems are winning in a variety of races by highlighting a variety of policies, but significantly they're winning because progressive policy is generally real popular in the US. Unfortunately, so is virulent racism and our electoral system is terrible and we have a whole party dedicated to making sure people can't vote so it's an even fight instead of an obvious blowout.
Then we're turbo fucked if the Republicans have power on their own.
Priority #1 is win this election. All else can flow from that: SC packing, electoral reform, energy policy, etc.
Without that win we fall even deeper into a hole.
Stopping fracking isn't going to solve climate change on it's own. You need an aggressive multi-pronged strategy with buy in from Congress to even hope of taking the drastic action needed. You cannot do that if you don't have power. Winning swing states is how you give yourself that power to tackle the issue (of which fracking is one minor facet).
One has outlived it's use the other is pure greed and proof of people failing science
I think the biggest risk is if people think a Trump loss means the mission is accomplished. A Trump loss is a vital necessity but many people will get complacent, I think.
That's the risk in anything, but that's not on Biden specifically. That's on democrats and voters, like what fucked Obama when in 2010 everyone just meh'd out and let the GOP take control.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Because the only reason the Dems need to do this is that the electoral system is skewed heavily towards the Republicans.
Gaining power give an opportunity to address this; it doesn't mean Dems are bound to forever acquiesce to those Republicans endlessly into the future.
Right, the best result of a Dem wave is the ability to do things like un-fuck Texas's voting system to the point that it's no longer considered "deep red" but is you know actually reflective of the people living in it.
They are shifting their messaging strategy. Biden's climate strategy will not do good things for fracking.
Man Ernst just yikes.
pleasepaypreacher.net