People seem to be missing what a big deal it is that the vote was 57 to 43. That isn't nothing. It denies the GOP the option of screaming about it being a partisan hit job because even seven republican felt that Trump's behavior was out of line.
This is as delusional as when the GOP "Now let's get back to real business" was presented as something that wouldn't have happened if the trial went different.
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
This, this right here.
This is why we lose. All the damn time.
Because one side can take a breath, make a calculation, and take the most effective step to accomplish their (shitty, fucked up) goal in unison. Doubt it? Look at judicial appointments Obama v Trump.
Meanwhile, our side says and thinks things like this and engages in a circular firing squad 24/7.
You folks are doing exactly what they hope you'll do. Stop focusing on the cheeto that you can't do anything to anyway, and start focusing on WINNING THE ARGUMENT. Which you do by governing effectively and solving the five billion problems the last administration caused.
More than two problems can be attacked at the same time!
Not during impeachment. Leaving aside the time sink that would be Republican witnesses running out clocks to avoid saying anything specific, the Senate's prohibited from doing anything other than going through with the trial once it starts. It's that and only that until the verdict lands, and only then are they able to attack more than one problem at a time.
I am so utterly exhausted being told "Boy, if you don't vote and support Democrats then you're part of the problem!" After I've spent twenty fucking years voting for, donating for, and campaigning for Democrats who get elected.
Only to turn around and say "BOY HOWDY WE COULD DO SOMETHING IF ONLY WE HAD TWENTY MORE DEMOCRATS!!!"
During that same period of time the Republican Party has no problem bending their narrow majority to achieve their goals or manipulating their narrow minority to stop the majority from accomplishing their nefarious goals.
Either way you splice it you get this. Republican majority they get what they want. Minority Republican Party they get what they want.
Either the Democrats don't understand congressional rules as well as the Republicans or Democrat politicians just aren't as effective.
I mean, you have people that knew damn well the mob would have murdered them if it had reached their position and those fuckers still voted to acquit.
I think the only Republican that the mob wanted dead was Pence, and he's not a Senator anymore. Most of the Republicans are probably thinking that they could have had some fun watching Democrats get raped and murdered and used the resulting chaos for martial law.
I mean, you have people that knew damn well the mob would have murdered them if it had reached their position and those fuckers still voted to acquit. Knowing full well that Trump called in that mob to murder them. Like this isn't as complex an issue as some people believe. I'd say people's position on the whole matter was mostly settled within a week of the riot. Either you're convinced that Trump's actions were acceptable or you believed that he committed a crime. We all also knew the GOP was very likely to let the fucker off because "party over country" and apparently their damn miserable lives. Anyone tuned in and hell many of the not tuned in, likely realized this was going to be a show. I'd prefer they had called in the witnesses, but they didn't and honestly, the witnesses weren't going to change anything. There wasn't going to be a new bit of testimony that made someone change their mind or be that last bit to get them over the hump into the convict the fucker camp.
It's also worth noting, that this was going to be something that ate up time. Time that could be used to get other business down that would yield actually returns. Calling in witnesses wasn't going to do anything about the economy or unfuck everything Trump did. Also a fair chunk of the stuff the witnesses, at least the relevant ones, would have to say will end up in actual court records anyways.
People seem to be missing what a big deal it is that the vote was 57 to 43. That isn't nothing. It denies the GOP the option of screaming about it being a partisan hit job because even seven republican felt that Trump's behavior was out of line.
I mean if we gummed up the first hundred days during a pandemic so relief and other things can't pass to hear endless witnesses repeat what we saw in the videos and presentations, just to maybe - maybe - pick up one or two more Republicans...well, we've been told the point spread doesn't matter.
And people on the street who arent turned into inside baseball would be asking where their relief checks are and not voting for the party that didn't deliver. Giving us another cycle of fascists fucking things over and Democrats getting blamed because they didn't put the first out fast enough.
I mean, you have people that knew damn well the mob would have murdered them if it had reached their position and those fuckers still voted to acquit. Knowing full well that Trump called in that mob to murder them. Like this isn't as complex an issue as some people believe. I'd say people's position on the whole matter was mostly settled within a week of the riot. Either you're convinced that Trump's actions were acceptable or you believed that he committed a crime. We all also knew the GOP was very likely to let the fucker off because "party over country" and apparently their damn miserable lives. Anyone tuned in and hell many of the not tuned in, likely realized this was going to be a show. I'd prefer they had called in the witnesses, but they didn't and honestly, the witnesses weren't going to change anything. There wasn't going to be a new bit of testimony that made someone change their mind or be that last bit to get them over the hump into the convict the fucker camp.
It's also worth noting, that this was going to be something that ate up time. Time that could be used to get other business down that would yield actually returns. Calling in witnesses wasn't going to do anything about the economy or unfuck everything Trump did. Also a fair chunk of the stuff the witnesses, at least the relevant ones, would have to say will end up in actual court records anyways.
People seem to be missing what a big deal it is that the vote was 57 to 43. That isn't nothing. It denies the GOP the option of screaming about it being a partisan hit job because even seven republican felt that Trump's behavior was out of line.
I mean if we gummed up the first hundred days during a pandemic so relief and other things can't pass to hear endless witnesses repeat what we saw in the videos and presentations, just to maybe - maybe - pick up one or two more Republicans...well, we've been told the point spread doesn't matter.
And people on the street who arent turned into inside baseball would be asking where their relief checks are and not voting for the party that didn't deliver. Giving us another cycle of fascists fucking things over and Democrats getting blamed because they didn't put the first out fast enough.
They didnt skip witnesses so they could get stuff done. They skipped witnesses so they could go home and Coons could get laid or whatever
It's actually laughable you can place the blame for stalling relief at dems feet when trump had a whole year to do anything and barely paused between golf rounds to pass the first stimuli. Not holding trump accountable now or atleast trying their damnedest to make an example of him sets a dangerous precedent. To me, relief is actually something I direly need as someone who was just laid off.. and I still would rather they do everything they can to ensure this never happens again, and they very clearly aren't.
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
Oh fuck off, Coons, holy shit.
Maybe you'll figure it out next time, when the mob actually breaks through and has you dancing at the end of a rope you stupid goose.
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
This, this right here.
This is why we lose. All the damn time.
Because one side can take a breath, make a calculation, and take the most effective step to accomplish their (shitty, fucked up) goal in unison. Doubt it? Look at judicial appointments Obama v Trump.
Meanwhile, our side says and thinks things like this and engages in a circular firing squad 24/7.
You folks are doing exactly what they hope you'll do. Stop focusing on the cheeto that you can't do anything to anyway, and start focusing on WINNING THE ARGUMENT. Which you do by governing effectively and solving the five billion problems the last administration caused.
It'd be much easier to win the argument if the Dems were ever willing to make the argument in the first place. Instead, we just see them constantly cede the argument to the other side.
I am so utterly exhausted being told "Boy, if you don't vote and support Democrats then you're part of the problem!" After I've spent twenty fucking years voting for, donating for, and campaigning for Democrats who get elected.
Only to turn around and say "BOY HOWDY WE COULD DO SOMETHING IF ONLY WE HAD TWENTY MORE DEMOCRATS!!!"
During that same period of time the Republican Party has no problem bending their narrow majority to achieve their goals or manipulating their narrow minority to stop the majority from accomplishing their nefarious goals.
Either way you splice it you get this. Republican majority they get what they want. Minority Republican Party they get what they want.
Either the Democrats don't understand congressional rules as well as the Republicans or Democrat politicians just aren't as effective.
Either way fuck th Democratic Party.
A Republican majority has never successfully convicted a president during an impeachment, either.
I am so utterly exhausted being told "Boy, if you don't vote and support Democrats then you're part of the problem!" After I've spent twenty fucking years voting for, donating for, and campaigning for Democrats who get elected.
Only to turn around and say "BOY HOWDY WE COULD DO SOMETHING IF ONLY WE HAD TWENTY MORE DEMOCRATS!!!"
During that same period of time the Republican Party has no problem bending their narrow majority to achieve their goals or manipulating their narrow minority to stop the majority from accomplishing their nefarious goals.
Either way you splice it you get this. Republican majority they get what they want. Minority Republican Party they get what they want.
Either the Democrats don't understand congressional rules as well as the Republicans or Democrat politicians just aren't as effective.
Either way fuck th Democratic Party.
A Republican majority has never successfully convicted a president during an impeachment, either.
The fucking result isn't the point, the point is to drag every fucking hack under oath.
So, I’ve basically been over the witness things days or weeks ago (I don’t remember when it was, it was whenever there was a news item about Democrats not planning on calling on witnesses). Like, ok, no witnesses, it’s gonna be a very short trial.
I watched a good bit of the trial, but the first I thought again about the possibility of witnesses was a breaking news app alert that Democrats were going to call on witnesses, which was totally unexpected. And two hours later, they were not going to call on witnesses. And the only reason I’m thinking about witnesses is that Democrats brought it up again, before again announcing it wasn’t going to happen, like it wasn’t going to happen in the first place.
Yeah, as evidenced in the congress thread, there really isn't a winning option for democrats on the witness front. People whine that they should have called witnesses to tell the public what it already knew, while also whining about how covid stuff is taking to long. Of the two issues, only one really has long term noticeable impact, at least as far as the untuned in voter is concerned and this is the vast majority of voters. Hell, there is even an argument to be made that some of the people making a stink about both here, probably are voters that were never going to come home for democrats. They either continue to sit out elections or ineffectively pull for a candidate that never had a chance (aka they really aren't worth the effort to engage because they've made up their mind to not vote democratic ever).
I'd argue the main goal was getting the GOP on record for this shit. McConnell didn't even want this to happen, which tells me that republicans feel deep down that this will cause them issues down the road. 43 republicans probably just conceded ground on the whole law and order argument because now people can come back and say they failed on that front and are willing to ignore the law when it benefits them to do so. Then when they say "but that was partisan," hit back with "seven republicans in the senate at the time disagreed or 14% of your caucus begged to differ that day."
Also I can guarantee you that when the GOP does something that some of the GOP don't like they yell just as angrily on message boards like this. There is not some great GOP hivemind that never argues on the internet compared to our "circular firing squad". That's a myth of perception because you don't visit places where conservatives talk to each other.
This is very possibly true.
Its not "possibly true", a mob tried to murder Pence for not over turning the election.
Oh yeah definitely. And the thing is is if you look at some places it's a somewhat distressingly perfect inverse of leftist spaces.
You know, "Goddammit, the GOP can never manage to get its shit together! The Democrats always work in total lockstep to advance their extremely straightforwardly agreed-upon priorities, but no one in the GOP is willing to fight the good fight for really important policies that will help all Americans!" etc etc
Also I can guarantee you that when the GOP does something that some of the GOP don't like they yell just as angrily on message boards like this. There is not some great GOP hivemind that never argues on the internet compared to our "circular firing squad". That's a myth of perception because you don't visit places where conservatives talk to each other.
This is very possibly true.
Its not "possibly true", a mob tried to murder Pence for not over turning the election.
Oh yeah definitely. And the thing is is if you look at some places it's a somewhat distressingly perfect inverse of leftist spaces.
You know, "Goddammit, the GOP can never manage to get its shit together! The Democrats always work in total lockstep to advance their extremely straightforwardly agreed-upon priorities, but no one in the GOP is willing to fight the good fight for really important policies that will help all Americans!" etc etc
I'm not worried about changing the minds of the Republican base or even the Republican senators. I knew going in that getting him convicted was a long shot.
However, you had voters in key states who were looking to get rid of this mook and have the book thrown at him, finally, and gave the Democratic party the win they needed. The wins in both houses were narrow.
The Dems had the votes to call witnesses, then the Dems shot themselves in the foot because of Valentine's day? Witnesses wouldn't have changed the outcome, but it would've put to record the names of those who are definitely in support of someone who tried to undermine our democracy to remain in power. Just like this whole freaking trial was to put to record that this happened and we couldn't ignore it. Now it looks like the Dems did all of this for nothing and that it was another waste of time.
Those clips they showed of the Dems saying "fight" during the trial are definitely going to be used in 2022, and probably effectively to those who saw the Dems do nothing, and who are now being told that they use the same rhetoric as Trump, but they're even more dangerous because "Socialism".
Hopefully the Dems have powerful legislation and enough congress folk to get on board and stop halting things like $1400 or $15 minimum wage, or any other vital topics we need to win on, or everything is boned, and it's going to start with this impeachment and how the Dems had enough pull for the witnesses and then said "Nah"
So, I’ve basically been over the witness things days or weeks ago (I don’t remember when it was, it was whenever there was a news item about Democrats not planning on calling on witnesses). Like, ok, no witnesses, it’s gonna be a very short trial.
I watched a good bit of the trial, but the first I thought again about the possibility of witnesses was a breaking news app alert that Democrats were going to call on witnesses, which was totally unexpected. And two hours later, they were not going to call on witnesses. And the only reason I’m thinking about witnesses is that Democrats brought it up again, before again announcing it wasn’t going to happen, like it wasn’t going to happen in the first place.
The most masterful cruelty is to dangle relief and hope in front of someone’s eyes, and then rip it away, telling them it was never possible to begin with.
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
This, this right here.
This is why we lose. All the damn time.
Because one side can take a breath, make a calculation, and take the most effective step to accomplish their (shitty, fucked up) goal in unison. Doubt it? Look at judicial appointments Obama v Trump.
Meanwhile, our side says and thinks things like this and engages in a circular firing squad 24/7.
You folks are doing exactly what they hope you'll do. Stop focusing on the cheeto that you can't do anything to anyway, and start focusing on WINNING THE ARGUMENT. Which you do by governing effectively and solving the five billion problems the last administration caused.
So the problem is that we're not all in lockstep between the Democrats folding an easily-winning hand and giving a major win to white-supremacist fascist who want to literally kill us?
I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.
History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.
Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.
I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.
What good will fixing it do if they can just do it all again (and more legally emboldened) next time?
They have to win elections to be able to. Again, which argument works better in 2022?
"Hey, remember COVID? Remember infrastructure? Remember minimum wage? They didn't fix that shit, we did. Now go vote."
"Hey, remember how we spent three weeks talking to witnesses about that thing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU made up your minds on before we even started? Two years ago? That was fun."
The assumption that there was ever a Sophie’s choice scenario is not based in reality.
Thinking this was anything but the only possible result considering current circumstance is not based in reality.
Also I can guarantee you that when the GOP does something that some of the GOP don't like they yell just as angrily on message boards like this. There is not some great GOP hivemind that never argues on the internet compared to our "circular firing squad". That's a myth of perception because you don't visit places where conservatives talk to each other.
This is very possibly true.
Its not "possibly true", a mob tried to murder Pence for not over turning the election.
Considering the vast majority of state and local Rs seem to support that fact, doesn't really help the anti-hive-mind argument you are trying to advance, here.
I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.
History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.
Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.
I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.
It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.
There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.
Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.
So, I’ve basically been over the witness things days or weeks ago (I don’t remember when it was, it was whenever there was a news item about Democrats not planning on calling on witnesses). Like, ok, no witnesses, it’s gonna be a very short trial.
I watched a good bit of the trial, but the first I thought again about the possibility of witnesses was a breaking news app alert that Democrats were going to call on witnesses, which was totally unexpected. And two hours later, they were not going to call on witnesses. And the only reason I’m thinking about witnesses is that Democrats brought it up again, before again announcing it wasn’t going to happen, like it wasn’t going to happen in the first place.
The most masterful cruelty is to dangle relief and hope in front of someone’s eyes, and then rip it away, telling them it was never possible to begin with.
I’m still really not super mad about this, but it is a weird thing to do.
What good will fixing it do if they can just do it all again (and more legally emboldened) next time?
They have to win elections to be able to. Again, which argument works better in 2022?
"Hey, remember COVID? Remember infrastructure? Remember minimum wage? They didn't fix that shit, we did. Now go vote."
"Hey, remember how we spent three weeks talking to witnesses about that thing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU made up your minds on before we even started? Two years ago? That was fun."
Its funny because they havent done either yet
And continuing with witnesses for weeks pointlessly does nothing to help them do the first one, and quite possibly hurts it instead.
Also I can guarantee you that when the GOP does something that some of the GOP don't like they yell just as angrily on message boards like this. There is not some great GOP hivemind that never argues on the internet compared to our "circular firing squad". That's a myth of perception because you don't visit places where conservatives talk to each other.
This is very possibly true.
Its not "possibly true", a mob tried to murder Pence for not over turning the election.
Considering the vast majority of state and local Rs seem to support that fact, doesn't really help the anti-hive-mind argument you are trying to advance, here.
Gop voters support anything a Republican does thats a hive mind to you, get so mad at what a Republican does they try to murder him, also a hive mind to you.
So, I’ve basically been over the witness things days or weeks ago (I don’t remember when it was, it was whenever there was a news item about Democrats not planning on calling on witnesses). Like, ok, no witnesses, it’s gonna be a very short trial.
I watched a good bit of the trial, but the first I thought again about the possibility of witnesses was a breaking news app alert that Democrats were going to call on witnesses, which was totally unexpected. And two hours later, they were not going to call on witnesses. And the only reason I’m thinking about witnesses is that Democrats brought it up again, before again announcing it wasn’t going to happen, like it wasn’t going to happen in the first place.
The most masterful cruelty is to dangle relief and hope in front of someone’s eyes, and then rip it away, telling them it was never possible to begin with.
I’m still really not super mad about this, but it is a weird thing to do.
The most charitable thing you could interpret from it is the party has no internal communications structure to get anyone on the same page.
I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.
History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.
Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.
I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.
It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.
There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.
Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.
If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?
You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.
Why the fuck did the bifurcated senate business structure of part of the day devoting to regular business and the other part dedicated to the Impeachment trial not happen?
Despite even Biden talking about how to get that done?
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
What in the absolute fuck are you talking about? The Democrats provided clear, compelling evidence of guilt. It was clear from the word "Go" what the Republican party was going to do. What the hell do you want them to do? Take the Republicans literally by the hand of FORCE them to vote yes?
I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.
History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.
Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.
I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.
It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.
There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.
Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.
If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?
You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.
Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.
As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.
Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
What in the absolute fuck are you talking about? The Democrats provided clear, compelling evidence of guilt. It was clear from the word "Go" what the Republican party was going to do. What the hell do you want them to do? Take the Republicans literally by the hand of FORCE them to vote yes?
What part of "the vote is not the point" led you to the conclusion I was arguing about the vote?
Why the fuck did the bifurcated senate business structure of part of the day devoting to regular business and the other part dedicated to the Impeachment trial not happen?
Despite even Biden talking about how to get that done?
Apparently requires unanimous consent under senate rules
People in here saying the impeachment vote was the only thing that matter are missing the point hard. The vote was not what mattered, it was never even in play. It was always going to be lost, and bragging about not losing as badly as expected is laughable.
The TRIAL was the point. The evidence, the witnesses, the recounting of events. The fight was for public opinion, not for the vote (which, again, was never even in play). Republicans were never worried about Trump getting impeached, they were worried about what the path to acquittal would cost them in the public realm and in future elections.
It turns out, it costs them nothing, because Democrats lost the trial. And they lost it of their own free will. They made themselves lose it on purpose. Republicans came in with an incompetent personal-injury lawyer who wasted everyone's time playing a meaningless clip show, and the Democrats reacted by running away with their tail between their legs.
In the court of public opinion, this is a massive, definitive, unambiguous win for the GOP and vindication for Trump, and a condemnation of Democrats for wasting time with partisan impeachment games. And Democrats did it to themselves.
Anyway, I hope those 7 votes and warm feeling from being "growups who moved on to the real issue" will comfort you while you watch Trump's second inauguration in January 2025. Not hyperbole, this is how bad a loss this is for Democrats.
What in the absolute fuck are you talking about? The Democrats provided clear, compelling evidence of guilt. It was clear from the word "Go" what the Republican party was going to do. What the hell do you want them to do? Take the Republicans literally by the hand of FORCE them to vote yes?
What part of "the vote is not the point" led you to the conclusion I was arguing about the vote?
What ARE you arguing then? Because it sure looks a whole lot like you're blaming the Democrats for holding an impeachment trial with clear evidence of guilt while the other side was literally watching Youtube videos on their phones.
Seriously, this is another one of those paragraphs in a high school history book that'll be explaining why the first United States broke up that 13 year old me won't really understand why anyone would just do something so stupid.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, ModeratorMod Emeritus
Keep the discussion in the impeachment thread about the impeachment itself.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.
History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.
Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.
I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.
It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.
There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.
Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.
If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?
You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.
Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.
As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.
Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.
...they absolutely did not acknowledge Rs were in the right on the 6th.
What are you even talking about? You've chicken little'ed yourself into absurdity at this point.
The folks who are angry about this are still going to vote for the lesser evil, but enthusiasm is required to get the enotional energy needed to mobilize people who don't pay attention to politics to also vote for the lesser evil.
There was also the slight chance of getting someone terrible to admit to something terrible under oath - where they lose the ability to say it was a joke after they drop it into Twitter.
I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.
History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.
Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.
I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.
It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.
There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.
Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.
I don't believe it would have made even an iota of difference at the ballot box. Everyone that isn't firmly entrenched in his camp already knows he did exactly what he was impeached for already.
Hey so this is what I learned as a life long capital D democrat.
If you vote democratic you might get a democratic president.
If you vote every election straight Democrat you likely end up with a democratic majority House of Representatives.
No matter how much you vote democratic you'll never have a majority of the senate and if you somehow won the presidency at the same time even with 51 vote majority nothing you support will become law.
I realized at that same time,somehow, if I was a Republican I would have gotten all I wanted at the same time
I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.
History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.
Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.
I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.
It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.
There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.
Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.
I don't believe it would have made even an iota of difference at then ballot box. Everyone that isn't firmly entrenched in his camp already knows he did exactly what he was impeached for already.
No they don't. Not everyone follows this stuff closely, especially if they are dealing with being in Republican social circles where the watercooler talk is all Republican talking points.
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This is as delusional as when the GOP "Now let's get back to real business" was presented as something that wouldn't have happened if the trial went different.
Not during impeachment. Leaving aside the time sink that would be Republican witnesses running out clocks to avoid saying anything specific, the Senate's prohibited from doing anything other than going through with the trial once it starts. It's that and only that until the verdict lands, and only then are they able to attack more than one problem at a time.
Only to turn around and say "BOY HOWDY WE COULD DO SOMETHING IF ONLY WE HAD TWENTY MORE DEMOCRATS!!!"
During that same period of time the Republican Party has no problem bending their narrow majority to achieve their goals or manipulating their narrow minority to stop the majority from accomplishing their nefarious goals.
Either way you splice it you get this. Republican majority they get what they want. Minority Republican Party they get what they want.
Either the Democrats don't understand congressional rules as well as the Republicans or Democrat politicians just aren't as effective.
Either way fuck th Democratic Party.
I think the only Republican that the mob wanted dead was Pence, and he's not a Senator anymore. Most of the Republicans are probably thinking that they could have had some fun watching Democrats get raped and murdered and used the resulting chaos for martial law.
I mean if we gummed up the first hundred days during a pandemic so relief and other things can't pass to hear endless witnesses repeat what we saw in the videos and presentations, just to maybe - maybe - pick up one or two more Republicans...well, we've been told the point spread doesn't matter.
And people on the street who arent turned into inside baseball would be asking where their relief checks are and not voting for the party that didn't deliver. Giving us another cycle of fascists fucking things over and Democrats getting blamed because they didn't put the first out fast enough.
They didnt skip witnesses so they could get stuff done. They skipped witnesses so they could go home and Coons could get laid or whatever
Maybe you'll figure it out next time, when the mob actually breaks through and has you dancing at the end of a rope you stupid goose.
It'd be much easier to win the argument if the Dems were ever willing to make the argument in the first place. Instead, we just see them constantly cede the argument to the other side.
3DS: 2981-5304-3227
A Republican majority has never successfully convicted a president during an impeachment, either.
The fucking result isn't the point, the point is to drag every fucking hack under oath.
I watched a good bit of the trial, but the first I thought again about the possibility of witnesses was a breaking news app alert that Democrats were going to call on witnesses, which was totally unexpected. And two hours later, they were not going to call on witnesses. And the only reason I’m thinking about witnesses is that Democrats brought it up again, before again announcing it wasn’t going to happen, like it wasn’t going to happen in the first place.
I'd argue the main goal was getting the GOP on record for this shit. McConnell didn't even want this to happen, which tells me that republicans feel deep down that this will cause them issues down the road. 43 republicans probably just conceded ground on the whole law and order argument because now people can come back and say they failed on that front and are willing to ignore the law when it benefits them to do so. Then when they say "but that was partisan," hit back with "seven republicans in the senate at the time disagreed or 14% of your caucus begged to differ that day."
Oh yeah definitely. And the thing is is if you look at some places it's a somewhat distressingly perfect inverse of leftist spaces.
You know, "Goddammit, the GOP can never manage to get its shit together! The Democrats always work in total lockstep to advance their extremely straightforwardly agreed-upon priorities, but no one in the GOP is willing to fight the good fight for really important policies that will help all Americans!" etc etc
going to go laugh until I cry and/or die.
However, you had voters in key states who were looking to get rid of this mook and have the book thrown at him, finally, and gave the Democratic party the win they needed. The wins in both houses were narrow.
The Dems had the votes to call witnesses, then the Dems shot themselves in the foot because of Valentine's day? Witnesses wouldn't have changed the outcome, but it would've put to record the names of those who are definitely in support of someone who tried to undermine our democracy to remain in power. Just like this whole freaking trial was to put to record that this happened and we couldn't ignore it. Now it looks like the Dems did all of this for nothing and that it was another waste of time.
Those clips they showed of the Dems saying "fight" during the trial are definitely going to be used in 2022, and probably effectively to those who saw the Dems do nothing, and who are now being told that they use the same rhetoric as Trump, but they're even more dangerous because "Socialism".
Hopefully the Dems have powerful legislation and enough congress folk to get on board and stop halting things like $1400 or $15 minimum wage, or any other vital topics we need to win on, or everything is boned, and it's going to start with this impeachment and how the Dems had enough pull for the witnesses and then said "Nah"
The most masterful cruelty is to dangle relief and hope in front of someone’s eyes, and then rip it away, telling them it was never possible to begin with.
So the problem is that we're not all in lockstep between the Democrats folding an easily-winning hand and giving a major win to white-supremacist fascist who want to literally kill us?
Gotcha. Sorry for breaking ranks, sir.
History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.
Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.
I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.
Thinking this was anything but the only possible result considering current circumstance is not based in reality.
Hey, this is fun!
Considering the vast majority of state and local Rs seem to support that fact, doesn't really help the anti-hive-mind argument you are trying to advance, here.
It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.
There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.
Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.
I’m still really not super mad about this, but it is a weird thing to do.
And continuing with witnesses for weeks pointlessly does nothing to help them do the first one, and quite possibly hurts it instead.
Gop voters support anything a Republican does thats a hive mind to you, get so mad at what a Republican does they try to murder him, also a hive mind to you.
The most charitable thing you could interpret from it is the party has no internal communications structure to get anyone on the same page.
If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?
You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.
Question
Why the fuck did the bifurcated senate business structure of part of the day devoting to regular business and the other part dedicated to the Impeachment trial not happen?
Despite even Biden talking about how to get that done?
What in the absolute fuck are you talking about? The Democrats provided clear, compelling evidence of guilt. It was clear from the word "Go" what the Republican party was going to do. What the hell do you want them to do? Take the Republicans literally by the hand of FORCE them to vote yes?
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.
As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.
Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.
What part of "the vote is not the point" led you to the conclusion I was arguing about the vote?
Apparently requires unanimous consent under senate rules
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
What ARE you arguing then? Because it sure looks a whole lot like you're blaming the Democrats for holding an impeachment trial with clear evidence of guilt while the other side was literally watching Youtube videos on their phones.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Seriously, this is another one of those paragraphs in a high school history book that'll be explaining why the first United States broke up that 13 year old me won't really understand why anyone would just do something so stupid.
...they absolutely did not acknowledge Rs were in the right on the 6th.
What are you even talking about? You've chicken little'ed yourself into absurdity at this point.
There was also the slight chance of getting someone terrible to admit to something terrible under oath - where they lose the ability to say it was a joke after they drop it into Twitter.
I don't believe it would have made even an iota of difference at the ballot box. Everyone that isn't firmly entrenched in his camp already knows he did exactly what he was impeached for already.
If you vote democratic you might get a democratic president.
If you vote every election straight Democrat you likely end up with a democratic majority House of Representatives.
No matter how much you vote democratic you'll never have a majority of the senate and if you somehow won the presidency at the same time even with 51 vote majority nothing you support will become law.
I realized at that same time,somehow, if I was a Republican I would have gotten all I wanted at the same time
No they don't. Not everyone follows this stuff closely, especially if they are dealing with being in Republican social circles where the watercooler talk is all Republican talking points.