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[Second Impeachment] Acquitted of Armed Insurrection | 57 Votes for Guilty

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Posts

  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited February 2021
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Despite our rule on “no nihilism” I remained astonished the go to response is “there was never a chance anyway, so why be upset?”

    There is a huge difference between 'Eat at Arbys' and saying that the GOP sucks and has the numbers to stop conviction but this was the right thing and still worthwhile even if acquittal was a foregone confusion.

    Same thing as everyone a year ago saying removal was never going to happen but he must be impeached.

    And nobody is saying don't be upset. We are saying point your anger where it belongs - the GOP Senators who acquitted. And Trump.

    This thread is literally a retinue of folks telling everyone how upset they’re allowed to be, and whom they can and cannot hold accountable for today’s clusterfuck.

    You’re literally doing it right now.

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    We are actually extremely justified in being mad at Chris Coons (D-Delaware) for putting his sex life ahead of a diligent and thorough prosecution for insurrection.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited February 2021
    zagdrob wrote: »
    we can

    and should

    be mad at both parties

    at all times

    I disagree and this that is reductive to the point of absurdity but that is already straying quite far from the topic of impeachment.


    like this

    Why? Why is this off topic? Whenever we have one of these discussions about political news in America, and the democrats fumble shit, when we cry out about it, it gets shouted down as being irrelevant to the conversation at hand despite, despite the fact that the reason we’re pissed is because of how the Democrats handled the issue at hand.

    After a while, it feels less like we’re somehow getting off the point and more like something akin to tone policing to keep folks from voicing their discontent with the party.

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    I don't think there's much that could have been given from witnesses that isn't already in the news or known and if you think that not having witnesses is "not even trying" then I would think you didn't pay attention to everything else the House Managers presented because they left no room for doubt or misunderstanding and drew a straight line from everything that Trump said starting on election night itself directly to January 6th connecting all the dots along the way.

    This isn't as complicated as the Ukraine thing where you had the president extorting a foreign leader while using the state department to run his own unofficial foreign policy scheme, everyone watched this happen on live tv right after Trumps speech.

    "Not trying" Would be the nonsense the Republicans did for 3 hours and then called it a day.

    in that case i don't understand why they wanted to allow witnesses

    PNk1Ml4.png
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    “You can’t make the voters care”

    Pelosi went on camera and said her phone was blowing up from her constituents screaming “IMPEACH”

    Seems like the voters cared a lot! And I don’t think what they really meant was “impeach him but then don’t bother trying very hard in the Senate”

    The thing is, the Republicans proved that you can force the voters to care. Because they hammered on "her emails" for so long that even Democrats cared about it, and assumed Clinton did something particularly wrong there, because if not why did investigation go on for so long, why so many investigations, why did Comey make a comment, etc.

    So if you don't flop over like a dead fish you can get people to care. Unfortunately Democrats only know how to flop over like a dead fish and chew gum, and they're all out of gum.

    "excuse my French
    But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
    - Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »



    Josh Scherr is a writer and narrative designer for Naughty Dog, a major video game developer and publisher
    This certainly doesn't give me hope the Democrats - despite currently holding the WH, House, & Senate - will enact any meaningful election reform, healthcare reform, minimum wage increases, climate change bills, or anything we elected them for. This is Keystone Cops shit.

    Good for you, random guy that works for Naughty Dog?

  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    .
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.

    History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.

    Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.

    I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.

    It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.

    There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.

    Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.

    If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?

    You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.

    Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.

    As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.

    Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.

    ...they absolutely did not acknowledge Rs were in the right on the 6th.

    Yes they did. When they said it wasn't worth calling witnesses over it. When they said it wasn't worth a few weeks of effort to go through testimonies. When they said going home for Valentine's Day was more important than the trial. When they said they should just wrap it up quickly and move on quietly to other stuff. They absolutely vindicated Trump and delegitimized opposition to his actions on the 6th.

    I think they pretty clearly said they were not in the right when they all voted to convict Trump.

    Again, the vote is not the point. They were always going to lose it. It's a symbolic gesture with no impact.

    The trial is where they could fight Trump and win. And instead they decided to walk away.

    This is "I'm an activist on your side because I put a temporary frame around my facebook profile picture" level of objection to the coup, by people who could and should have done more but refused to.

    sig.gif
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »



    Josh Scherr is a writer and narrative designer for Naughty Dog, a major video game developer and publisher
    This certainly doesn't give me hope the Democrats - despite currently holding the WH, House, & Senate - will enact any meaningful election reform, healthcare reform, minimum wage increases, climate change bills, or anything we elected them for. This is Keystone Cops shit.

    Good for you, random guy that works for Naughty Dog?

    You make a compelling counter-point, random guy on the internet.

    sig.gif
  • altlat55altlat55 Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    .
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.

    History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.

    Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.

    I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.

    It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.

    There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.

    Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.

    If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?

    You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.

    Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.

    As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.

    Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.

    ...they absolutely did not acknowledge Rs were in the right on the 6th.

    Yes they did. When they said it wasn't worth calling witnesses over it. When they said it wasn't worth a few weeks of effort to go through testimonies. When they said going home for Valentine's Day was more important than the trial. When they said they should just wrap it up quickly and move on quietly to other stuff. They absolutely vindicated Trump and delegitimized opposition to his actions on the 6th.

    I think they pretty clearly said they were not in the right when they all voted to convict Trump.

    Again, the vote is not the point. They were always going to lose it. It's a symbolic gesture with no impact.

    The trial is where they could fight Trump and win. And instead they decided to walk away.

    This is "I'm an activist on your side because I put a temporary frame around my facebook profile picture" level of objection to the coup, by people who could and should have done more but refused to.

    I watched almost the entire impeachment and thought they effectively made their case.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    .
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.

    History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.

    Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.

    I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.

    It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.

    There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.

    Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.

    If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?

    You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.

    Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.

    As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.

    Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.

    ...they absolutely did not acknowledge Rs were in the right on the 6th.

    Yes they did. When they said it wasn't worth calling witnesses over it. When they said it wasn't worth a few weeks of effort to go through testimonies. When they said going home for Valentine's Day was more important than the trial. When they said they should just wrap it up quickly and move on quietly to other stuff. They absolutely vindicated Trump and delegitimized opposition to his actions on the 6th.

    I think they pretty clearly said they were not in the right when they all voted to convict Trump.

    Again, the vote is not the point. They were always going to lose it. It's a symbolic gesture with no impact.

    The trial is where they could fight Trump and win. And instead they decided to walk away.

    This is "I'm an activist on your side because I put a temporary frame around my facebook profile picture" level of objection to the coup, by people who could and should have done more but refused to.

    I watched almost the entire impeachment and thought they effectively made their case.

    The idea here would be to get clips, sound bites, and media coverage for people who didn't watch almost the entire impeachment.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • RaynagaRaynaga Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    .
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.

    History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.

    Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.

    I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.

    It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.

    There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.

    Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.

    If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?

    You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.

    Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.

    As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.

    Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.

    ...they absolutely did not acknowledge Rs were in the right on the 6th.

    Yes they did. When they said it wasn't worth calling witnesses over it. When they said it wasn't worth a few weeks of effort to go through testimonies. When they said going home for Valentine's Day was more important than the trial. When they said they should just wrap it up quickly and move on quietly to other stuff. They absolutely vindicated Trump and delegitimized opposition to his actions on the 6th.

    They literally spent 3 days doing the exact opposite. You are outraging yourself into an alternate reality, here.

  • altlat55altlat55 Registered User regular
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    .
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.

    History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.

    Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.

    I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.

    It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.

    There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.

    Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.

    If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?

    You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.

    Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.

    As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.

    Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.

    ...they absolutely did not acknowledge Rs were in the right on the 6th.

    Yes they did. When they said it wasn't worth calling witnesses over it. When they said it wasn't worth a few weeks of effort to go through testimonies. When they said going home for Valentine's Day was more important than the trial. When they said they should just wrap it up quickly and move on quietly to other stuff. They absolutely vindicated Trump and delegitimized opposition to his actions on the 6th.

    I think they pretty clearly said they were not in the right when they all voted to convict Trump.

    Again, the vote is not the point. They were always going to lose it. It's a symbolic gesture with no impact.

    The trial is where they could fight Trump and win. And instead they decided to walk away.

    This is "I'm an activist on your side because I put a temporary frame around my facebook profile picture" level of objection to the coup, by people who could and should have done more but refused to.

    I watched almost the entire impeachment and thought they effectively made their case.

    The idea here would be to get clips, sound bites, and media coverage for people who didn't watch almost the entire impeachment.

    And that was going to come from witnesses?

  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »



    Josh Scherr is a writer and narrative designer for Naughty Dog, a major video game developer and publisher
    This certainly doesn't give me hope the Democrats - despite currently holding the WH, House, & Senate - will enact any meaningful election reform, healthcare reform, minimum wage increases, climate change bills, or anything we elected them for. This is Keystone Cops shit.

    Good for you, random guy that works for Naughty Dog?

    You make a compelling counter-point, random guy on the internet.

    I know, my reply to his tweet is virtually nonexistent.

    It's almost as if I don't have a twitter account entirely to avoid a platform dedicated to hot takes from random people.

  • RaynagaRaynaga Registered User regular
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    At some point folks are gonna have to realize that the dude who keeps siding with the GOP over issues like the filibuster, who is on record within the last few years of saying he might vote for Trump in the last election, and sabotages the impeachment is maybe not actually a Democratic ally, despite the D next to his name.

    Get rid of Manchin. See what you get as a replacement. From West Virginia.

    Manchin is the last D of any variety we'll see from there for the next 20 years.

    if he consistently votes with republicans, then the D by his name is purely symbolic anyway

    He voted with Trump 52% of the time.

    Your facts are wrong.

    That's more than any Senator except Donnelly and Heitkamp, and neither of them have a job anymore.

    That's my point? Well, that and it's misleading to say he "always votes with with Rs" when it's the definition of splitting the difference.

    Oh, and the average R? Over 89% with Trump.

    May not like the 52%, but its a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    You have to be nice to Democrats, they're the only ones who can fail to pass a public option again.

    Happiness is within reach!
  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited February 2021
    Lanz wrote: »



    Josh Scherr is a writer and narrative designer for Naughty Dog, a major video game developer and publisher
    This certainly doesn't give me hope the Democrats - despite currently holding the WH, House, & Senate - will enact any meaningful election reform, healthcare reform, minimum wage increases, climate change bills, or anything we elected them for. This is Keystone Cops shit.

    Good for you, random guy that works for Naughty Dog?

    I mean I quoted Chuck Wendig too, but go off I guess

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    well if my man only votes with trump a slight majority of the time instead of a large majority of the time i guess he's not so bad

    PNk1Ml4.png
  • ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    So wait, was there no vote to disqualify Trump from holding future office? Why the hell not?

  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited February 2021
    I'll take 50 people that vote with trump 52% of the time over 50 that vote with him 89% of the time

    Jars on
  • MimMim I prefer my lovers… dead.Registered User regular
    I'm not so mad that I won't vote for the dems in the future

    I am so mad that I will vote for a more progressive candidate, be it dem or independent, than waste a vote on a "middle of the road, let's work together and be nice cause u-n-i-t-y spells unity" dem.

    BlueSky: thequeenofchaos Steam: mimspanks (add me then tell me who you are! Ask for my IG)
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    altlat55 wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    .
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.

    History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.

    Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.

    I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.

    It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.

    There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.

    Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.

    If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?

    You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.

    Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.

    As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.

    Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.

    ...they absolutely did not acknowledge Rs were in the right on the 6th.

    Yes they did. When they said it wasn't worth calling witnesses over it. When they said it wasn't worth a few weeks of effort to go through testimonies. When they said going home for Valentine's Day was more important than the trial. When they said they should just wrap it up quickly and move on quietly to other stuff. They absolutely vindicated Trump and delegitimized opposition to his actions on the 6th.

    I think they pretty clearly said they were not in the right when they all voted to convict Trump.

    Again, the vote is not the point. They were always going to lose it. It's a symbolic gesture with no impact.

    The trial is where they could fight Trump and win. And instead they decided to walk away.

    This is "I'm an activist on your side because I put a temporary frame around my facebook profile picture" level of objection to the coup, by people who could and should have done more but refused to.

    I watched almost the entire impeachment and thought they effectively made their case.

    The idea here would be to get clips, sound bites, and media coverage for people who didn't watch almost the entire impeachment.

    And that was going to come from witnesses?

    The only benefits of witnesses would be if they could get Trump on the stand or if they are hoping to catch someone perjuring themselves.

    Otherwise the three days of presentations already showed the same quotes, facts, videos and photos they would get from any witnesses. The only reason witnesses came up at all was about the one call.

  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    I'm pretty confident if the legislators spent all of their time in DC the exact same people would be complaining about how out of touch they are and how they spend all their time hanging out with lobbyists.

    Like they absolutely do meet with local groups special interest groups and activists and they do events and fundraisers and they go on TV and all of that shit is their job.

    They've literally only been away for like three weeks and have gotten checks watch nothing done.

    Like I'm in agreement that recess time is actually important, but, like, maybe actually fucking do something before you decide to fuck off back home for Valentine's Day

    uH3IcEi.png
  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    this is literally the One Job they were elected to do and they half assed it

    i get it was a forgone conclusion but good lord

  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »

    Josh Scherr is a writer and narrative designer for Naughty Dog, a major video game developer and publisher
    This certainly doesn't give me hope the Democrats - despite currently holding the WH, House, & Senate - will enact any meaningful election reform, healthcare reform, minimum wage increases, climate change bills, or anything we elected them for. This is Keystone Cops shit.

    This is a super backwards take because the most powerful democrat pushing to end impeachment is the one that would rather the senate be working on this stuff.

    Before we go back into the "both-and" rigamorale: I'm not defending his choice, but Biden has clearly not given a shit about impeachment from the start, and has been pushing senators to cobble together his 1.9 bil covid plan ASAP. Legislation will happen, even if not everything that was promised. Meanwhile Biden never even ran on impeaching Trump or sending his DoJ after him.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    altlat55 wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    .
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.

    History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.

    Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.

    I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.

    It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.

    There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.

    Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.

    If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?

    You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.

    Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.

    As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.

    Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.

    ...they absolutely did not acknowledge Rs were in the right on the 6th.

    Yes they did. When they said it wasn't worth calling witnesses over it. When they said it wasn't worth a few weeks of effort to go through testimonies. When they said going home for Valentine's Day was more important than the trial. When they said they should just wrap it up quickly and move on quietly to other stuff. They absolutely vindicated Trump and delegitimized opposition to his actions on the 6th.

    I think they pretty clearly said they were not in the right when they all voted to convict Trump.

    Again, the vote is not the point. They were always going to lose it. It's a symbolic gesture with no impact.

    The trial is where they could fight Trump and win. And instead they decided to walk away.

    This is "I'm an activist on your side because I put a temporary frame around my facebook profile picture" level of objection to the coup, by people who could and should have done more but refused to.

    I watched almost the entire impeachment and thought they effectively made their case.

    The idea here would be to get clips, sound bites, and media coverage for people who didn't watch almost the entire impeachment.

    And that was going to come from witnesses?

    Yes....?

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »



    Josh Scherr is a writer and narrative designer for Naughty Dog, a major video game developer and publisher
    This certainly doesn't give me hope the Democrats - despite currently holding the WH, House, & Senate - will enact any meaningful election reform, healthcare reform, minimum wage increases, climate change bills, or anything we elected them for. This is Keystone Cops shit.

    Good for you, random guy that works for Naughty Dog?

    I mean I quoted Chuck Wendig too, but go off I guess

    Yes.

    That was also asinine.

    But I chose to simply roll my eyes rather than say anything.

    Then when you did the same god damned thing 10 minutes later I felt I should say something.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »

    Josh Scherr is a writer and narrative designer for Naughty Dog, a major video game developer and publisher
    This certainly doesn't give me hope the Democrats - despite currently holding the WH, House, & Senate - will enact any meaningful election reform, healthcare reform, minimum wage increases, climate change bills, or anything we elected them for. This is Keystone Cops shit.

    This is a super backwards take because the most powerful democrat pushing to end impeachment is the one that would rather the senate be working on this stuff.

    Before we go back into the "both-and" rigamorale: I'm not defending his choice, but Biden has clearly not given a shit about impeachment from the start, and has been pushing senators to cobble together his 1.9 bil covid plan ASAP. Legislation will happen, even if not everything that was promised. Meanwhile Biden never even ran on impeaching Trump or sending his DoJ after him.

    Because the president doesn't run the legislature? And I know we got used to Trump abusing his power with the DOJ but I'd rather Biden not be directing his DOJ, I'd rather they do their own investigations independent of the president.

    But you are right he didn't run or win on doing shit about Trump post election.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    .
    Viskod wrote: »
    I don't think there's much that could have been given from witnesses that isn't already in the news or known and if you think that not having witnesses is "not even trying" then I would think you didn't pay attention to everything else the House Managers presented because they left no room for doubt or misunderstanding and drew a straight line from everything that Trump said starting on election night itself directly to January 6th connecting all the dots along the way.

    This isn't as complicated as the Ukraine thing where you had the president extorting a foreign leader while using the state department to run his own unofficial foreign policy scheme, everyone watched this happen on live tv right after Trumps speech.

    "Not trying" Would be the nonsense the Republicans did for 3 hours and then called it a day.

    1. There's a difference between the Democratic house manager saying it and a witness without a D next to their name saying it.
    2. Saying it again has benefit. Saying something once gets forgotten. Repetition drives the point home and makes it stick.
    3. The nonsense the Republicans did for 3 hours won them the trial.

    Not really, to all of these.

    The only useful witnesses would be people that made attempts to stop this while it was happening. Those that tried to call for reinforcements and were denied, those that spoke to Trump and recognized that he knew what was happening and didn't care because they point toward the conspiracy to engineer the attack and Trumps knowledge and intent regarding it.

    It'd be nice to hear, but it wouldn't have changed anything with the vote, and I don't think it would matter much to anyone else because most people already think Trump is responsible, and most people wanted him removed before Biden was sworn in. There's not a publicity needle that we need them to move.

    It's not that I don't think there should have been witnesses, I just don't see how not having them has people twisted into such knots that they believe not having them is the equivalent of not even bothering to try because you can't say that in good faith while also knowing the kind of case the House Managers had already made.
    -Tal wrote: »
    Viskod wrote: »
    I don't think there's much that could have been given from witnesses that isn't already in the news or known and if you think that not having witnesses is "not even trying" then I would think you didn't pay attention to everything else the House Managers presented because they left no room for doubt or misunderstanding and drew a straight line from everything that Trump said starting on election night itself directly to January 6th connecting all the dots along the way.

    This isn't as complicated as the Ukraine thing where you had the president extorting a foreign leader while using the state department to run his own unofficial foreign policy scheme, everyone watched this happen on live tv right after Trumps speech.

    "Not trying" Would be the nonsense the Republicans did for 3 hours and then called it a day.

    in that case i don't understand why they wanted to allow witnesses

    They wanted one specific witness because of a news story that broke last night because this is new information that just came out.

  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    I'm pretty confident if the legislators spent all of their time in DC the exact same people would be complaining about how out of touch they are and how they spend all their time hanging out with lobbyists.

    Like they absolutely do meet with local groups special interest groups and activists and they do events and fundraisers and they go on TV and all of that shit is their job.

    They've literally only been away for like three weeks and have gotten checks watch nothing done.

    Like I'm in agreement that recess time is actually important, but, like, maybe actually fucking do something before you decide to fuck off back home for Valentine's Day
    look on the bright side, at least we got kids still in prison and we're giving less money to fewer people than Trump

  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »

    Josh Scherr is a writer and narrative designer for Naughty Dog, a major video game developer and publisher
    This certainly doesn't give me hope the Democrats - despite currently holding the WH, House, & Senate - will enact any meaningful election reform, healthcare reform, minimum wage increases, climate change bills, or anything we elected them for. This is Keystone Cops shit.

    This is a super backwards take because the most powerful democrat pushing to end impeachment is the one that would rather the senate be working on this stuff.

    Before we go back into the "both-and" rigamorale: I'm not defending his choice, but Biden has clearly not given a shit about impeachment from the start, and has been pushing senators to cobble together his 1.9 bil covid plan ASAP. Legislation will happen, even if not everything that was promised. Meanwhile Biden never even ran on impeaching Trump or sending his DoJ after him.

    Because the president doesn't run the legislature? And I know we got used to Trump abusing his power with the DOJ but I'd rather Biden not be directing his DOJ, I'd rather they do their own investigations independent of the president.

    But you are right he didn't run or win on doing shit about Trump post election.

    Very much the bolded. The DOJ is absolutely not supposed to be the President's hatchet man.

  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    I admit I wouldn’t be so pissed if they had not said “we’re gonna call witnesses” then said “psych!”.

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    The Democrats also lost in a big way because the GOP get to do this, now:


    Well that was a waste of time.

    Let’s get back to work.

    Account is the Twitter account for Senate Republicans

    They get to sweep this under the rug, normalize call to insurrection, paint the Democratic move for Impeachment as a do-nothing frivolity, and use that as leverage when they next obstruct.

    That's kind of the modus operandi, do the right thing half way, which ends up being worse than not doing it at all in many cases

    like not even bothering to impeach again while giving "it won't be a fair effort" as a reason would have been better than half assing it

  • jmcdonaldjmcdonald I voted, did you? DC(ish)Registered User regular
    Artereis wrote: »
    So wait, was there no vote to disqualify Trump from holding future office? Why the hell not?

    Because he has to be convicted first

  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    .
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    altlat55 wrote: »
    I don't believe witnesses would have even changed who is on paper supporting this. There aren't any voters (voters in the Senate or voters at the ballot box) who are going to be swayed by witnesses.

    History will record this the same way with or without witnesses. Even McConnell is on the record saying that Trump did what he is accused of and is using the copout that convicting him is unconstitutional.

    Neither the outcome of this impeachment or future senate elections was in play. That Republicans voted to acquit a President who was clearly guilty is still just as much on the record as it would have been otherwise.

    I wanted to see witnesses because I wanted to see some people squirm, but it would have made no difference on any level.

    It would have made a difference in the public opinion. Which would have made a difference at the ballot box. Which would have made a difference in whether this has consequences or not. Which would have made a difference in whether it happens again or not.

    There is a world outside the Senate chamber. Just because something doesn't make a difference in the Senate doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference.

    Or said differently, climate change, police brutality, immigration reform, minimum wage, student debt, and countless other issues make no difference on the Senate and Senators. You can expect just about as much dedication from Democrat Senators on these issues as you just saw here.

    If you think witnesses would have impacted public opinion, you have more faith in the public than I do. The video, the audio, the transcripts, SEEING IT FUCKING HAPPEN didn't. Why would witnesses?

    You can't convince these people. You have to beat them.

    Depends who you mean by "these people". Republican voters? I agree they're a lost cause. But there are other people. Taking Trump and Biden's results together accounts for less than 160M people in a country of 350M. The other ~200M are still up for grabs. And they just saw Democrats acknowledge that Republicans were in the right on Jan. 6th. You don't win many votes with the "I was wrong, they were right, vote for me" line.

    As for "beating them", you know what you need for that? People who inspire voters to vote for them. You know what's the opposite of inspiring? Someone who gives up an easily-won fight without lifting a finger.

    Any way you cut it, this completely-self-inflicted defeat is an unmitigated disaster for Democrats.

    ...they absolutely did not acknowledge Rs were in the right on the 6th.

    Yes they did. When they said it wasn't worth calling witnesses over it. When they said it wasn't worth a few weeks of effort to go through testimonies. When they said going home for Valentine's Day was more important than the trial. When they said they should just wrap it up quickly and move on quietly to other stuff. They absolutely vindicated Trump and delegitimized opposition to his actions on the 6th.

    I think they pretty clearly said they were not in the right when they all voted to convict Trump.

    Again, the vote is not the point. They were always going to lose it. It's a symbolic gesture with no impact.

    The trial is where they could fight Trump and win. And instead they decided to walk away.

    This is "I'm an activist on your side because I put a temporary frame around my facebook profile picture" level of objection to the coup, by people who could and should have done more but refused to.

    I watched almost the entire impeachment and thought they effectively made their case.

    The idea here would be to get clips, sound bites, and media coverage for people who didn't watch almost the entire impeachment.

    And that was going to come from witnesses?

    The only benefits of witnesses would be if they could get Trump on the stand or if they are hoping to catch someone perjuring themselves.

    Otherwise the three days of presentations already showed the same quotes, facts, videos and photos they would get from any witnesses. The only reason witnesses came up at all was about the one call.

    If you think that was the only witness to the events of an insurrection that the public wanted on the record and it to be acknowledged that the Republicans were willing to ignore to commit fully to hitching their cart behind a anti-democratic fascist horse, well... good luck with that when so much as a peep about what they went through leading up to and on Jan 6 is making headlines. Witnesses getting choked up sharing their experience would have mattered for a lot, politics isn't just practiced with logic but emotion, exactly what witnesses' body language, faces, and voices convey.

    steam_sig.png
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Tomanta wrote: »
    A month ago we thought there would be one, maybe 2 republican votes to convinct.

    Three days ago we thought maybe 6 at most. We got 7. That's not nothing.

    Point spread doent matter

    shit since we DID get 7 if we had a few days of witnesses giving harrowing testimony they might have actually convicted him

  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Just for what it's worth, I do wish they had subpoenaed Trump and fought for him to be in contempt of congress or sit on the stand and claim the fifth. Or some BS former executive privilege argument that drags on in court until Trump dies of Big Macs.

    But I do understand why they wrapped when they did and even if I don't completely agree I realize why they could have come to that decision for reasons other than being terrible cowards.

  • ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    jmcdonald wrote: »
    Artereis wrote: »
    So wait, was there no vote to disqualify Trump from holding future office? Why the hell not?

    Because he has to be convicted first

    I thought there were pages of discussion saying that conviction wasn't necessary for that vote.

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Artereis wrote: »
    jmcdonald wrote: »
    Artereis wrote: »
    So wait, was there no vote to disqualify Trump from holding future office? Why the hell not?

    Because he has to be convicted first

    I thought there were pages of discussion saying that conviction wasn't necessary for that vote.

    Mostly because everyone knew there was no other way this could go so they were looking for some way for this to be effective in some way even though this has basically just been a foregone conclusion since the moment these shit heads started storming the Capitol.

  • jmcdonaldjmcdonald I voted, did you? DC(ish)Registered User regular
    Artereis wrote: »
    jmcdonald wrote: »
    Artereis wrote: »
    So wait, was there no vote to disqualify Trump from holding future office? Why the hell not?

    Because he has to be convicted first

    I thought there were pages of discussion saying that conviction wasn't necessary for that vote.

    Shockingly some people on the internet were wrong.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited February 2021
    I'm honestly wondering if it would have made a difference if the mob had actually harmed any of the people they were after.

    Hexmage-PA on
This discussion has been closed.