As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

Dragon Age Thread – The third and final story DLC out now on PS4/XBO/PC

1878889909193»

Posts

  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited February 26
    The thing is they get the worst of both worlds, because the story is also about a main character, same with destiny. It’s always you that’s saving the day. I want a games as service game to lean into the fact that I’m just a random soldier, and like npcs should talk to groups that you’re just a part of, even if those groups are npcs, and lean into factions and large scale battles where you’re just one guy helping turn the tide. But instead they make you the main hero, but then you don’t get to lean into that either cos the game has to accomodate multiplayer, so it ends up trying to straddle this enormous central gap between the two extremes thematically even before you get to the gameplay

    I’m not against games as service I’m against basically attaching that label to unfocused, unsure of themselves single player games that don’t have quite enough meat on their bones and so add an “endgame” loot grind which basically just ends up being minor stat boosts by doing the single player content over and over again

    Prohass on
    DragkoniasUnluckyGoodKingJayIIICorsini
  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    Anthem shows that the days of pay-to-entry GAAS games releasing with fuck all content is over. No one is going to invest time and money in a platform when there are established games with way more content.

    You either need to be F2P or have lots of content on launch.

    Launching with an entry fee and having bugger all is just not going to cut it.

    YOU'RE ALL BABIES.
    SO MUCH POTENTIAL TO WASTE.
    Koshian wrote: »
    JOKE'S ON YOU
    MY POTENTIAL IS ALREADY WASTED
    ThegreatcowBlackDragon4803cl1ps3MancingtomDragkoniashtmGiantGeek2020AegeriGoodKingJayIII
  • DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    If nothing else it's nice to see that voting with your wallet actually does matter.

    And this is a good example to put forth when people say it doesn't!

    desc wrote: »
    ~ * ~ Week-Long Dance-a-thon Booty Ribbon ~ * ~
    BlackDragon480SmrtnikAndy JoeGoodKingJayIII
  • htmhtm Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    The problem with GaaS when tied to SP is that it ruins the "me" experience because there needs to be a big universal instance so no one feels left out.

    Which is antithetical to what people like about Bioware games.

    Look at Anthem. In the main plot you kind of just go along with the story. Making quips and comments but nothing that actually affects the world state.

    And look the online conversations around an average Bioware game.

    Who did they romance? What was their relationship with X character? How did they handle big decisions/small decisions? What subtle tweaks did my world state have because of them?

    There is a nuance there that is way harder to get in multiplayer because you need consistent variables for each player.

    And those variables even if illusionary in the grand scheme of things are what makes Bioware games what they are.

    I don’t entirely disagree with this, but... look at SWTOR. It has personalized storytelling with choices set in an overarching main story along with side quests and other activities that lend themselves to group play. Anthem ought to have been an action MMO (which is really a synonym for GaaS) with a SWTOR-style setting that mixed single-player story missions into a multi-player overworld.

    I’m not mad that DA4 isn’t going to have multiplayer, but I don’t think multiplayer has to detract from telling single-player stories. SWTOR is proof of that. It has a lot of pretty good BioWare stories that are failed by its ancient engine and design.

    BRIAN BLESSEDjdarksunTrajan45GoodKingJayIII
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited February 27
    htm wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    The problem with GaaS when tied to SP is that it ruins the "me" experience because there needs to be a big universal instance so no one feels left out.

    Which is antithetical to what people like about Bioware games.

    Look at Anthem. In the main plot you kind of just go along with the story. Making quips and comments but nothing that actually affects the world state.

    And look the online conversations around an average Bioware game.

    Who did they romance? What was their relationship with X character? How did they handle big decisions/small decisions? What subtle tweaks did my world state have because of them?

    There is a nuance there that is way harder to get in multiplayer because you need consistent variables for each player.

    And those variables even if illusionary in the grand scheme of things are what makes Bioware games what they are.

    I don’t entirely disagree with this, but... look at SWTOR. It has personalized storytelling with choices set in an overarching main story along with side quests and other activities that lend themselves to group play. Anthem ought to have been an action MMO (which is really a synonym for GaaS) with a SWTOR-style setting that mixed single-player story missions into a multi-player overworld.

    I’m not mad that DA4 isn’t going to have multiplayer, but I don’t think multiplayer has to detract from telling single-player stories. SWTOR is proof of that. It has a lot of pretty good BioWare stories that are failed by its ancient engine and design.

    I mean, I do get what you're saying but. . .

    SWTOR cost $200 million to make and is only beaten by friggin Star Citizen as the most expensive game ever made.

    So, y'know, they could afford to do a lot. :razz:

    Axen on
    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
    Orca
  • BRIAN BLESSEDBRIAN BLESSED Maybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHH Registered User regular
    edited February 27
    htm wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    The problem with GaaS when tied to SP is that it ruins the "me" experience because there needs to be a big universal instance so no one feels left out.

    Which is antithetical to what people like about Bioware games.

    Look at Anthem. In the main plot you kind of just go along with the story. Making quips and comments but nothing that actually affects the world state.

    And look the online conversations around an average Bioware game.

    Who did they romance? What was their relationship with X character? How did they handle big decisions/small decisions? What subtle tweaks did my world state have because of them?

    There is a nuance there that is way harder to get in multiplayer because you need consistent variables for each player.

    And those variables even if illusionary in the grand scheme of things are what makes Bioware games what they are.

    I don’t entirely disagree with this, but... look at SWTOR. It has personalized storytelling with choices set in an overarching main story along with side quests and other activities that lend themselves to group play. Anthem ought to have been an action MMO (which is really a synonym for GaaS) with a SWTOR-style setting that mixed single-player story missions into a multi-player overworld.

    I’m not mad that DA4 isn’t going to have multiplayer, but I don’t think multiplayer has to detract from telling single-player stories. SWTOR is proof of that. It has a lot of pretty good BioWare stories that are failed by its ancient engine and design.

    I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. BioWare is some kind of Schrodinger's dev team where the people who work there are supposed to be all gone so they're no longer capable of doing the games they used to do, but the brand is supposed to be only known for one particular kind of RPG when they have demonstrably produced others.

    BRIAN BLESSED on
    htm
  • htmhtm Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    htm wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    The problem with GaaS when tied to SP is that it ruins the "me" experience because there needs to be a big universal instance so no one feels left out.

    Which is antithetical to what people like about Bioware games.

    Look at Anthem. In the main plot you kind of just go along with the story. Making quips and comments but nothing that actually affects the world state.

    And look the online conversations around an average Bioware game.

    Who did they romance? What was their relationship with X character? How did they handle big decisions/small decisions? What subtle tweaks did my world state have because of them?

    There is a nuance there that is way harder to get in multiplayer because you need consistent variables for each player.

    And those variables even if illusionary in the grand scheme of things are what makes Bioware games what they are.

    I don’t entirely disagree with this, but... look at SWTOR. It has personalized storytelling with choices set in an overarching main story along with side quests and other activities that lend themselves to group play. Anthem ought to have been an action MMO (which is really a synonym for GaaS) with a SWTOR-style setting that mixed single-player story missions into a multi-player overworld.

    I’m not mad that DA4 isn’t going to have multiplayer, but I don’t think multiplayer has to detract from telling single-player stories. SWTOR is proof of that. It has a lot of pretty good BioWare stories that are failed by its ancient engine and design.

    I mean, I do get what you're saying but. . .

    SWTOR cost $200 million to make and is only beaten by friggin Star Citizen as the most expensive game ever made.

    So, y'know, they could afford to do a lot. :razz:

    SWTOR's development was indeed a clusterfuck. I don't remember the details, but they apparently spent way to much on building their Austin studio and licensing the game engine, while also paying out a big Star Wars tax to Lucas.

    That being said, it almost certainly ended up being very profitable for EA. At its release, it had aspersions of being a WoW-killer. It never managed that, but it's likely made a $billion or more so far.

    jdarksunBRIAN BLESSEDGoodKingJayIII
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited February 27
    No one is saying they have to make just one thing.

    Just saying they should probably play to their strengths.

    Cause if the Anthem dev log is anything to go off of half the team didn't even seem to know what kind of game they were making.

    Like Prohass said Anthem's problem is being split between Bioware game and GaaS without doing either particularly well.

    Dragkonias on
  • Trajan45Trajan45 Registered User regular
    It's been said ad nauseam but Anthem's #1 issue was Frostbite. Numerous interviews speak to how much development time was wasted just trying to get the engine to do what they wanted it to do. Imagine if instead of the engine work taking the bulk of the development time, they had 50% more time to build content, flesh out the story, balance weapons and skill, and test for bugs?

    That's my main fear with DA4. While they have the benefit of using the work that was done for Anthem, it's still not an engine that is designed for the game they are making.

    Origin ID\ Steam ID: Warder45
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    They had to use Frostbite for Inquisition and Andromeda before Anthem, but I wonder how much of each of those teams are still around and how much of their knowledge from those projects are useful for DA4's development?

    dt3GeqU.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited March 1
    i mean by this stage theyre going to have tools developed

    not least because at bare minimum they will have had the experience of getting screwed by bad tools twice...

    they have had more than enough time to get together acceptable or better tools

    and in any case many of the tools are just constructing a sensible framework for importing and editing eg conversation tree data rather than a frostbite-specific thing as such - its "can we build a decent importer for a domain-specific thingy"

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • Trajan45Trajan45 Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    They had to use Frostbite for Inquisition and Andromeda before Anthem, but I wonder how much of each of those teams are still around and how much of their knowledge from those projects are useful for DA4's development?

    This is one of the biggest knocks against Frostbite. Since it's proprietary, any new hires have to be trained up on it. Verses something like Unreal where you can hire someone in with expert knowledge.

    Origin ID\ Steam ID: Warder45
    Fencingsax
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Maybe EA won't mandate Frostbite for DA4? I mean, Fallen Order was developed in UE4... though Respawn also made Apex Legends using freaking Source.

    dt3GeqU.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited March 1
    Also, as I recall, the guy who did a bunch of the engine development for DAI left before MEA, and since their documentation was just like documentation everywhere, they had to relearn doing everything. They effectively had to write the tools twice, from my understanding.

    Fencingsax on
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited March 1
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    So there may be some Light (of Andraste) at the end of the this whole development tunnel due to the firestorm of Anthem's shutting down
    The diverging trajectories of two recent games changed the minds of Wilson and other executives at EA, according to the people. One was Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order, a single-player game released in November 2019 that won critical acclaim and outperformed EA’s sales expectations, reaching more than 10 million players in its first four months. The second was BioWare’s Anthem, a multiplayer game that was widely panned when it launched. The games showed that single-player games could still be lucrative and that BioWare, traditionally known for its single-player, role-playing games, might be better off returning to its roots.

    As someone who preordered the deluxe edition of Fallen Order and never bought Anthem, all I have to say is: You're welcome.

    I too got a brand new copy of Fallen Order at full price.

    I did try Anthem, because why not when JBHI-FI Australia chose to sell it for $4. That was $4 too much for me.

    Yeah am glad to see them toss unnecessary multiplayer elements and focus on making a proper good single player game again.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Problems with Frostbite are of course numerous, but two are often overlooked and really big.

    1) Doing anything in Frostbite is an exercise in minor frustrations. You wanna do X? Well you got to do 4 other things first in order to do X. As opposed to other engines where you can just do X.

    2) Frostbite support. If you’re not Dice or the FIFA folks you are low on the priority list for Frostbite support. You’re likely to get token assistance and not much else.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
    3cl1ps3Trajan45Fencingsax
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    if dice dont have an internal engine team working on developing dev tools so that licensing frostbite is an actual option as ue4 spreads like a virus then they have given up entirely

    i suppose its conceivable bioware are just gonna be like LOL SUP WE UE4 NOW but

    obF2Wuw.png
  • ThegreatcowThegreatcow Lord of All Bacons Washington State - It's Wet up here innit? Registered User regular
    From my understanding with DA4, is that they're directly pulling from Anthem's codebase and are planning to "not repeat the mistakes made by inquisition". Granted this quote was also taken around the time they were building the spec-ops group in Tevinter doing heists and assassinations that supposedly got shelved and rebooted when Anthem shibbolethed every available dev into its maw so I'm not sure how much of that is true any more. Supposedly the tools that were learned under Dragon Age Inquisition were not shared all that much with Andromeda nor Anthem so that also contributed to the pain the games were undergoing as each dev team was essentially learning how to wrassle Frostbite by themselves.

  • RiboflavinRiboflavin Registered User regular
    I enjoyed DA:Origins immensely. Two was OK. In DA3, I fought against the change from top down tactical to semi-action rpg but begrudgingly admit it was an awesome game. The move to solely single player has me back on the hype train I'd left long ago and hopefully it won't turn into a reverse Star Trek where only the odd ones are good.

  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    edited March 2
    Trajan45 wrote: »
    It's been said ad nauseam but Anthem's #1 issue was Frostbite.

    Frostbite was a definite difficulty during Anthem’s development, but the overridimg factor in its failure was Bioware lack of vision and direction, terrible planning and bad management.

    I know it’s easy to shit on EA, and they didn’t make it any easier, but Bioware owns Anthem’s failure all by itself.

    Edit: source: https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-wrong-1833731964

    GoodKingJayIII on
    Battletag: Threeve#1501
    PSN: Threeve703
    Shadowen3cl1ps3OrcaBlackDragon480AxenAegeriThegreatcowSoundsPlushAndy JoeHades
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    This Wombo app is something else, but I just had to share this in here because it broke me.



    Also I'm reinstalling DA:I now.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
    BRIAN BLESSEDGoodKingJayIIIjdarksunBlackDragon480CambiataTrajan45Thegreatcow
  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler Registered User regular
    edited March 11
    OK this is both amazing and awful



    David Gaider wrote:
    I hate everything about this
    <embedded tweet of Solas singing Dragostea Din Tei>

    jdarksun on
    CambiataShadowfireExtreaminatusTrajan45BlackDragon480FencingsaxhtmSkeithBRIAN BLESSED
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    I adore that the AI has no idea what to do with his pointy ears so they're just left on the screen separate from his head.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
    CambiataExtreaminatusTrajan45jdarksunBlackDragon480FencingsaxStrikorBRIAN BLESSEDShadowen
  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    Riboflavin wrote: »
    I enjoyed DA:Origins immensely. Two was OK. In DA3, I fought against the change from top down tactical to semi-action rpg but begrudgingly admit it was an awesome game. The move to solely single player has me back on the hype train I'd left long ago and hopefully it won't turn into a reverse Star Trek where only the odd ones are good.

    Man don't be ashamed. I still consider DA:I to be one of the best games of this generation and my second favourite RPG, second only to The Witcher 3. It's a good game damn it!

    ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
    Steam: adamjnet
    CambiataTrajan45ThegreatcowStrikor
  • BRIAN BLESSEDBRIAN BLESSED Maybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHH Registered User regular
    Feral Dragon Age Twitter is by far my favorite subculture on that hellsite

    3cl1ps3ShadowfireBlackDragon480GoodKingJayIIIcaptainkshoeboxjeddyShadowenJOE_1967ExtreaminatushtmThegreatcowAtlas in ChainsEtiowsaCambiataGiantGeek2020Trajan45SyngyneDemonStaceyyossarian_lives
  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    Hawke is the best.

    Battletag: Threeve#1501
    PSN: Threeve703
    shoeboxjeddyAistanDizzy DJOE_1967SoundsPlushExtreaminatushtmEtiowsaGiantGeek2020Trajan45VeagleDemonStaceyDracomicrondanxyossarian_lives
  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    Having heard that Fallen Order was made on Unreal just boggles my mind. Primarily because that game performed like TRASH.

    It's one of the biggest pet peeves I have with the game other than the collectibles being all color variants basically. ME3 made fun of the elevators, but Fallen Order had both crawl spaces AND elevators to hide its loading, and it just made it feel like a 15 year old game. Seriously, that game was on the friendliest engine possible and Bioware still couldn't deal with load times is just... sad.

    After having played through Ghost of Tsushima it's even MORE sad. Sony and Sucker Punch did some fucking wizardry on that game that makes Fallen Order feel like a PC game circa 1999.

    wbee62u815wj.png
  • EspantaPajaroEspantaPajaro Registered User regular
    Star Wars fallen order isn’t a bioware game . It’s a respawn game from titanfall 1/2 fame .

    CambiataSoundsPlushDizzy D3cl1ps3ShadowenPreciousBodilyFluidsDemonStaceyGiantGeek2020GoodKingJayIIIBlackDragon480Extreaminatus
  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    Star Wars fallen order isn’t a bioware game . It’s a respawn game from titanfall 1/2 fame .

    Yeah, I caught that later. I suppose my beef is more with either Respawn or EA. Seems like a really odd thing to get wrong since load times or frame dips can kill a good action RPG.

    wbee62u815wj.png
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited April 13
    Gaider did a fun little "in retrospect" about DA2 on his Twitter.

    You can go there and find it if you want but this article compounded most of the major tweets.

    https://www.gameinformer.com/2021/04/13/former-dragon-age-lead-writer-talks-about-what-he-loved-and-hated-about-working-on?amp&__twitter_impression=true

    But I would still visit his timeline if you wanted more indepth stuff.

    Like Varric was originally gonna die in the DA2 expansion.

    Dragkonias on
  • htmhtm Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Gaider did a fun little "in retrospect" about DA2 on his Twitter.

    You can go there and find it if you want but this article compounded most of the major tweets.

    https://www.gameinformer.com/2021/04/13/former-dragon-age-lead-writer-talks-about-what-he-loved-and-hated-about-working-on?amp&__twitter_impression=true

    But I would still visit his timeline if you wanted more indepth stuff.

    Like Varric was originally gonna die in the DA2 expansion.

    I remember one of the DA2 devs/writers mentioned that we should be glad that the DA2 expansion never happened, because it would have crushed us. He never did say why, though. I had always assumed that they would have killed off Hawke.

    Varric, though? Jesus fuck, you monsters.

    Trajan45StrikorShadowfireFencingsaxBRIAN BLESSEDDizzy DKayne Red RobeThegreatcow
Sign In or Register to comment.