The push-fit Necron Warriors are awful to put together. I hate them so, so much. I'm glad I don't have to build any more for the foreseeable future because a single block of 20 is considered the limit for Warriors to bring.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
I am still really curious how many of the stuff you get with the termagants as they only showed one of each of the returned weapons
The way they talked about them, comparing them to the special weapons you get in other units, it's likely just the one Shardlauncher, Strangleweb, and Spike Rifle in each set.
On the other hand, the War-Com article does pluralise them, suggesting more than one...
The push-fit Necron Warriors are awful to put together. I hate them so, so much. I'm glad I don't have to build any more for the foreseeable future because a single block of 20 is considered the limit for Warriors to bring.
I know I did not use the directions and just pretend they were rebuilt with other necrons
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
are devourers the best loadout for gants? 2 shots takes advantage of the lethal/sustained over the fleshborer, and +6 inch range and str seem better than twinlinked s3 of spinefists in most situations, right?
also devgants look the coolest, which is most important.
I like Fleshborers because they’re the original Termagant weapon. Also that’s what my 60 Termagants have.
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
Allow me to unrepentantly rationalize Space Marine organization for a moment. The Codex Astartes Company composition (6 Battleline, 2 Close Combat, 2 Fire Support, plus command structure and vehicles) makes sense from both the fluff and rules perspective of the older, pre-primaris editions of the game, but I don't think they serve a modern Primaris-only company. Ideally, you'd want something that would allow collectors a narrative reason to collect a variety of squads, but also allow for enough flexibility so that you could play games (at least somewhat competitively) with your company. I also think it's important for the fluff to explain why a company organizes the way it does in broad terms that can be reinterpreted to fit a variety of needs.
So, I like the basic organization of the Codex Astartes (in so far as it has some creative restraints) and it's not totally in left field for how a real military might organize a weapon system like Space Marines. Additionally, I'm resorting to my own headcannon on things like average lethality, deployment conditions, life-expectancy, and resupply of Space Marines since the actual lore is all over the place (and just not sustainable in any way). With all that being said, I think Space Marines deploy either as specialized task forces, or as whole companies, which I'll start with. A "Battle Company" (hereafter abbreviated to "company") should be the default warfighting unit for a Space Marine Deployment in the field. I.e. it (or a subsection of it) is what you're putting on the table in a proper 40k game. A Space Marine Company should be able to do broad, sustained actions on a planetary or system-wide scale; overthrow a rogue government, defend a planet from external or internal forces (i.e. Ork invasion, Chaos or Genestealer uprising, etc.), defend against or attack large fleets via boarding actions, and of course planet-scale assualt. That’s not to say that other Imperial Forces couldn’t do these things, or that Space Marines are the best at any of these individually, but that these are the kinds of tasks suited for a company on deployment autonomously. Naturally, companies can be part of a larger task force, but should still retain basic autonomy to pursue their tasked objectives as they see fit. Companies can expect to deploy for years taking on the kinds of threats listed above and then moving to the next mission without any reinforcements or down-time. They need to be able to address a broad range of threats, many of which won’t be known ahead of time. This means that a company needs to have a variety of weapons, specialists, and equipment to function. What this means to me is this:
Battle Company Roster
Company Commander
Sub Commander (represented by a Captain or Lieutenant)
2-6 Lieutenants
Company Command (Ancient, Apothecary, Champion, Chaplain, Librarian, and Techmarine in charge of the company)
Additional Apothecaries, Chaplains, Librarians, and Techmarines as required along with those in training.
Commander's Bodyguard (3-5 Bladeguard or Aggressors, Company Command Squad)
2 squads of Vanguard Marines (Infiltrators, Incursors, Reivers, Eliminators)
1-3 squads of Heavy Support (Heavy Intercessors, Aggressors, Eradicators)
1-3 squads of Ranged Support (Hellblaster Squads, Desolation Squads, Infernus Squads, Devastator Squads)
1-2 squads/units of Mobile support (Outriders, Inceptors, Suppressor Squad, Jump-pack Assault Squads)
Dedicated Transports & Drop pods
Light vehicles
Heavy vehicles
Deployable bunkers etc.
Space Marine Battle Companies would also deploy with additional squads, vehicles, etc. from the Reserve Companies, which I'll talk about next. The Reserve Companies should be the in-garrison units; recuperating, recruiting, training, etc. Sure, Marines are much hardier than normal humans, and thanks to the psycho-indoctrination they don't have the same R&R requirements, but I think the Codex Astartes at least would prescribe some amount of in-garrison time. In my headcannon, each Marine is treated like a sports car, with regular check up and maintenance. After a few years (to a decade) in the field, they'd need to get the health of their organs and gene-seed checked, get their rejuv treatments, get overhauls on their armor and weapons, etc. They'd also need to pass on tactics, techniques, and procedures learned in the field, and give accounts of any information pertaining to their campaigns that were missing or required additional details.
While in-garrison, these vets would also need to train the next generations in their warfighting skills specific to their specializations. Long-lived Marines can go through a variety of specializations before becoming 1st company veterans, so this is when they'd make the transition from one specialty to the next. That being said, there's also times when either a Battle Company would need reinforcement, or the Chapter would be called on or volunteer smaller scale support. Something like a fire team of Intercessors to be body guards to fleet commanders, or a pair of Techmarines and servitors with thundercannons lending support to a Battle Company. Ad-hoc demi-companies of a Lieutenant and a few squads could be put together for short-term purpose-tailored task forces (a la Kill Team type stuff). All of these would come from the Reserve Companies since they're not built to deploy en-masse. Finally, both the 1st Company Veterans and the 10th Company Scouts/Recruits still make a lot of sense to me. I'd leave those be and they'd be treated like reserve companies as far as deployments go.
I don’t think these are huge changes, but it allows me to plan out the heraldry for my Dark Angels companies without resorting to sticking every new Primaris variant into one of the reserve companies. Next, I'll run some numbers for attrition and required recruitment rates, since that'll help me understand this engineering probability class better.
飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
Didn’t Roboute remove a lot of the restrictions on chapter organisation since Tyranids are such an existential threat?
One Shot does not appear to be defined as a weapon rule in the Core Rules.
Which, you know, self explanatory. However, what happens when a unit can bring back dead models with One Shot weapons in 10th?
Exactly why I’ve been saying it should be a core rule since the first index dropped. Too many units have it and it creates too many edge cases.
Like resurrection for example.
Or what happens if a model with a one-shot weapon boards a transport and the vehicle uses Firing Deck to shoot it?
Or when you have multiple of the same One Shot weapon; can you fire all of them at once or only one or some arbitrary number?
And an unlikely one but what if some effect allows an enemy to use your model? Can they fire your precious one-shot anti-tank missile at a Grot?
I’m sure there’s more, too…
EDIT: recalled another; what if you have a weapon with multiple profiles (you know the choose one before use type) and one of those is One Shot? Or worse, if two or more are One Shot?
An army rule that doesn’t effect a bunch of units, stats and weapons being worse, points being too high and an attachment rule that doesn’t do much at the best of times and can make things worse for you in some match ups.
Like why does a data smith do nothing half the time while making an expensive unit worse because it adds a bunch of keywords (and thus vulnerabilities)?
The new codex coming out in winter is what it looks like you’ve got to pin your hopes on.
Best placing for AdMech at Tacoma was 177th. Woof.
Is there somewhere to see the full list? Top 30 was the best I found, and I'm pretty interested in seeing what factions were played and how it turned out.
PSN|AspectVoid
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
Best placing for AdMech at Tacoma was 177th. Woof.
Is there somewhere to see the full list? Top 30 was the best I found, and I'm pretty interested in seeing what factions were played and how it turned out.
I'm just looking at this Reddit post. Complete placings are theoretically available through BestCoastPairings but I've never been able to navigate the site to find what I'm looking for.
The rules of One Shot are "The bearer can only shoot with this weapon once per battle."
I agree that it probably should have been a USR, but the intent seems pretty clear - the bearer (resurrected or not) can fire it once in a game.
I think resurrected models is fairly clear (at least intent) but iirc there was an issue with GSC where they could load up a unit with demo charges which are one shot but then if that unit dies a new identical unit is created via their blip rule. As this is technically a new unit do they get the demo charges back? I don't play GSC (or against them really ever) so not looked into it but does seem a bit more contentious.
Also the one shot thing is a big discussion because it really matters with some armies like GSC and Guard who can replace destroyed units.
FLG and WTC have ruled that a GSC unit coming back that fired its one shot weapons does not get them back.
Guard I think gets messier as it says "A new unit with all the same load out."
So, I've only seen it for guard myself with the Guard stratagem Reinforcements. That stratagem says "add a new unit to your army that is identical to the destroyed unit". If its identical, and the unit it is replacing has already used its one-shot weapon, then the new unit would come in having already used the one-shot weapon (otherwise it would not be identical). Or at least that is how we ruled it.
EDIT: Oh, the stratagem also specifies that it comes in at full strength and full wounds. It was argued that since those are specified as being different then the "identical" claim above, that one-shot weapons already used stay used for the new unit, otherwise they would have been called out the same way that strength and wounds are.
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PSN|AspectVoid
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Yea, i read it as it’s a new unit at full strength with the same data sheet. I would think otherwise it would say “the destroyed unit comes back at full strength with full wounds”
Don't forget with space marine organisation (as it used to be), that some elements of the reserve companies' role is to act as specialists - most bike squads are attached from the 8th who train in the use of larger numbers of fast vehicles, as well as the more conventional jump/assault troops.
Presumably the 9th is also more focused on garrison missions (especially lead by the Master of Relics), and possibly at least one of the reserve tactical companies could be split across the fleet - manning boarding torpedos or smaller teams in the Chapter's RSVs - those times when a squad or two of marines is all that is needed to swiftly solve a problem and a single Gladius or Hunter (or squadron) can be temporarily assigned to a Navy mission to carry out a shock assault, or assist with anti-pirate boarding actions.
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
My local nonGW shop is doing a 500-1000 escalation League over 6 weeks. I have enough black Templar made up to play with that specific index. Looking forward to trying out vows, and bringing the ballistus dread when we jump up to 750p.
Also the one shot thing is a big discussion because it really matters with some armies like GSC and Guard who can replace destroyed units.
FLG and WTC have ruled that a GSC unit coming back that fired its one shot weapons does not get them back.
Guard I think gets messier as it says "A new unit with all the same load out."
So, I've only seen it for guard myself with the Guard stratagem Reinforcements. That stratagem says "add a new unit to your army that is identical to the destroyed unit". If its identical, and the unit it is replacing has already used its one-shot weapon, then the new unit would come in having already used the one-shot weapon (otherwise it would not be identical). Or at least that is how we ruled it.
EDIT: Oh, the stratagem also specifies that it comes in at full strength and full wounds. It was argued that since those are specified as being different then the "identical" claim above, that one-shot weapons already used stay used for the new unit, otherwise they would have been called out the same way that strength and wounds are.
Genestealers bring back units in 2 ways.
First is via Icons, which says 'return up to D3 destroyed models' which I agree, wording suggests one shot weapons would count as being spent. You're bringing back the model that was destroyed, and it's used it.
The other is via Cult Ambush, which has almost the same wording as the Astra Militarum Stratagem regarding wounds.
Add a new unit to your army identical to your destroyed unit, in Strategic Reserves, at its Starting Strength and with all of its wounds remaining.
you can select one unit from your army that is in Cult mbush and set that destroyed unit back up on the battlefield using the Deep Strike ability, containing all of its models with their full wounds remaining
So different rules for Guard and Cult regarding the Guard stratagem and Cult Ambush just feels like arbitrary 'punish one army more because we said so'.
Hopefully GW release a FAQ for One Shot pretty quick.
-Loki- on
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Best placing for AdMech at Tacoma was 177th. Woof.
a lot of the fragile armies like sisters and admech are completely and utterly shit on because
a. eldar and gsc are wildly broken and destroy them
and b. overwatch is presently way WAY too strong
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Best placing for AdMech at Tacoma was 177th. Woof.
a lot of the fragile armies like sisters and admech are completely and utterly shit on because
a. eldar and gsc are wildly broken and destroy them
and b. overwatch is presently way WAY too strong
How is overwatch too strong? I've felt like it has been fine so far but I may be using it wrong.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
Out of curiosity, has this thread just kept passing it's saves, or just no one has gotten around to putting a new thread together yet?
Best placing for AdMech at Tacoma was 177th. Woof.
a lot of the fragile armies like sisters and admech are completely and utterly shit on because
a. eldar and gsc are wildly broken and destroy them
and b. overwatch is presently way WAY too strong
How is overwatch too strong? I've felt like it has been fine so far but I may be using it wrong.
I’m curious about this too. Yeah the extra flexibility to use it during movement is nice but it’s still only once/turn.
Posts
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
The way they talked about them, comparing them to the special weapons you get in other units, it's likely just the one Shardlauncher, Strangleweb, and Spike Rifle in each set.
On the other hand, the War-Com article does pluralise them, suggesting more than one...
I know I did not use the directions and just pretend they were rebuilt with other necrons
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/15/warhammer-preview-cower-before-the-apex-horrors-of-the-hive-mind/
And the old ‘are these new tactics cards or reprints?’ gamble. Wait and see and they’ll probably be sold out.
The two they name drop are from the Escher and Delaque packs so I'm guessing reprints?
Edit:
From the Warhammer Facebook page 'The Core Gang Tactics Cards contains no new card but some cards have clarified text on them.'
Curse my obsessive nature, guess I'm buying them then.
Dr. Doom is the best one.
I’m going to look into that for sure. I have dozens of different size magnets.
All of them, at once. If two heads are better than one, imagine how good four heads are!
Magnet Operation successful. The full helmet head's magnet went in a little crooked but that just makes the head angle up a bit more. More stoic.
Need to find a safe place to store the other heads. Maybe print a small footlocker?
Any room to hollow out the underside of the base?
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
I like Fleshborers because they’re the original Termagant weapon. Also that’s what my 60 Termagants have.
Nah. The winged helmet takes up too much space. I found a little box to print. Going to paint it up in DA colors and add a logo to it.
So, I like the basic organization of the Codex Astartes (in so far as it has some creative restraints) and it's not totally in left field for how a real military might organize a weapon system like Space Marines. Additionally, I'm resorting to my own headcannon on things like average lethality, deployment conditions, life-expectancy, and resupply of Space Marines since the actual lore is all over the place (and just not sustainable in any way). With all that being said, I think Space Marines deploy either as specialized task forces, or as whole companies, which I'll start with. A "Battle Company" (hereafter abbreviated to "company") should be the default warfighting unit for a Space Marine Deployment in the field. I.e. it (or a subsection of it) is what you're putting on the table in a proper 40k game. A Space Marine Company should be able to do broad, sustained actions on a planetary or system-wide scale; overthrow a rogue government, defend a planet from external or internal forces (i.e. Ork invasion, Chaos or Genestealer uprising, etc.), defend against or attack large fleets via boarding actions, and of course planet-scale assualt. That’s not to say that other Imperial Forces couldn’t do these things, or that Space Marines are the best at any of these individually, but that these are the kinds of tasks suited for a company on deployment autonomously. Naturally, companies can be part of a larger task force, but should still retain basic autonomy to pursue their tasked objectives as they see fit. Companies can expect to deploy for years taking on the kinds of threats listed above and then moving to the next mission without any reinforcements or down-time. They need to be able to address a broad range of threats, many of which won’t be known ahead of time. This means that a company needs to have a variety of weapons, specialists, and equipment to function. What this means to me is this:
Battle Company Roster
- Company Commander
- Sub Commander (represented by a Captain or Lieutenant)
- 2-6 Lieutenants
- Company Command (Ancient, Apothecary, Champion, Chaplain, Librarian, and Techmarine in charge of the company)
- Additional Apothecaries, Chaplains, Librarians, and Techmarines as required along with those in training.
- Commander's Bodyguard (3-5 Bladeguard or Aggressors, Company Command Squad)
- Company Dreadnoughts
- 4 squads of Battleline Troops (Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, Tactical Squads, Assault Squads)
- 2 squads of Vanguard Marines (Infiltrators, Incursors, Reivers, Eliminators)
- 1-3 squads of Heavy Support (Heavy Intercessors, Aggressors, Eradicators)
- 1-3 squads of Ranged Support (Hellblaster Squads, Desolation Squads, Infernus Squads, Devastator Squads)
- 1-2 squads/units of Mobile support (Outriders, Inceptors, Suppressor Squad, Jump-pack Assault Squads)
- Dedicated Transports & Drop pods
- Light vehicles
- Heavy vehicles
- Deployable bunkers etc.
Space Marine Battle Companies would also deploy with additional squads, vehicles, etc. from the Reserve Companies, which I'll talk about next. The Reserve Companies should be the in-garrison units; recuperating, recruiting, training, etc. Sure, Marines are much hardier than normal humans, and thanks to the psycho-indoctrination they don't have the same R&R requirements, but I think the Codex Astartes at least would prescribe some amount of in-garrison time. In my headcannon, each Marine is treated like a sports car, with regular check up and maintenance. After a few years (to a decade) in the field, they'd need to get the health of their organs and gene-seed checked, get their rejuv treatments, get overhauls on their armor and weapons, etc. They'd also need to pass on tactics, techniques, and procedures learned in the field, and give accounts of any information pertaining to their campaigns that were missing or required additional details.While in-garrison, these vets would also need to train the next generations in their warfighting skills specific to their specializations. Long-lived Marines can go through a variety of specializations before becoming 1st company veterans, so this is when they'd make the transition from one specialty to the next. That being said, there's also times when either a Battle Company would need reinforcement, or the Chapter would be called on or volunteer smaller scale support. Something like a fire team of Intercessors to be body guards to fleet commanders, or a pair of Techmarines and servitors with thundercannons lending support to a Battle Company. Ad-hoc demi-companies of a Lieutenant and a few squads could be put together for short-term purpose-tailored task forces (a la Kill Team type stuff). All of these would come from the Reserve Companies since they're not built to deploy en-masse. Finally, both the 1st Company Veterans and the 10th Company Scouts/Recruits still make a lot of sense to me. I'd leave those be and they'd be treated like reserve companies as far as deployments go.
I don’t think these are huge changes, but it allows me to plan out the heraldry for my Dark Angels companies without resorting to sticking every new Primaris variant into one of the reserve companies. Next, I'll run some numbers for attrition and required recruitment rates, since that'll help me understand this engineering probability class better.
My repentia took down the ghostkeel by themselves, only losing one when he exploded
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Which, you know, self explanatory. However, what happens when a unit can bring back dead models with One Shot weapons in 10th?
Like resurrection for example.
Or what happens if a model with a one-shot weapon boards a transport and the vehicle uses Firing Deck to shoot it?
Or when you have multiple of the same One Shot weapon; can you fire all of them at once or only one or some arbitrary number?
And an unlikely one but what if some effect allows an enemy to use your model? Can they fire your precious one-shot anti-tank missile at a Grot?
I’m sure there’s more, too…
EDIT: recalled another; what if you have a weapon with multiple profiles (you know the choose one before use type) and one of those is One Shot? Or worse, if two or more are One Shot?
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
I agree that it probably should have been a USR, but the intent seems pretty clear - the bearer (resurrected or not) can fire it once in a game.
An army rule that doesn’t effect a bunch of units, stats and weapons being worse, points being too high and an attachment rule that doesn’t do much at the best of times and can make things worse for you in some match ups.
Like why does a data smith do nothing half the time while making an expensive unit worse because it adds a bunch of keywords (and thus vulnerabilities)?
The new codex coming out in winter is what it looks like you’ve got to pin your hopes on.
Is there somewhere to see the full list? Top 30 was the best I found, and I'm pretty interested in seeing what factions were played and how it turned out.
I'm just looking at this Reddit post. Complete placings are theoretically available through BestCoastPairings but I've never been able to navigate the site to find what I'm looking for.
I think resurrected models is fairly clear (at least intent) but iirc there was an issue with GSC where they could load up a unit with demo charges which are one shot but then if that unit dies a new identical unit is created via their blip rule. As this is technically a new unit do they get the demo charges back? I don't play GSC (or against them really ever) so not looked into it but does seem a bit more contentious.
https://40kmetamonday.wordpress.com/2023/07/17/7-17-23/
Also the one shot thing is a big discussion because it really matters with some armies like GSC and Guard who can replace destroyed units.
FLG and WTC have ruled that a GSC unit coming back that fired its one shot weapons does not get them back.
Guard I think gets messier as it says "A new unit with all the same load out."
So, I've only seen it for guard myself with the Guard stratagem Reinforcements. That stratagem says "add a new unit to your army that is identical to the destroyed unit". If its identical, and the unit it is replacing has already used its one-shot weapon, then the new unit would come in having already used the one-shot weapon (otherwise it would not be identical). Or at least that is how we ruled it.
EDIT: Oh, the stratagem also specifies that it comes in at full strength and full wounds. It was argued that since those are specified as being different then the "identical" claim above, that one-shot weapons already used stay used for the new unit, otherwise they would have been called out the same way that strength and wounds are.
Hopefully they post a rules clarification.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Presumably the 9th is also more focused on garrison missions (especially lead by the Master of Relics), and possibly at least one of the reserve tactical companies could be split across the fleet - manning boarding torpedos or smaller teams in the Chapter's RSVs - those times when a squad or two of marines is all that is needed to swiftly solve a problem and a single Gladius or Hunter (or squadron) can be temporarily assigned to a Navy mission to carry out a shock assault, or assist with anti-pirate boarding actions.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Genestealers bring back units in 2 ways.
First is via Icons, which says 'return up to D3 destroyed models' which I agree, wording suggests one shot weapons would count as being spent. You're bringing back the model that was destroyed, and it's used it.
The other is via Cult Ambush, which has almost the same wording as the Astra Militarum Stratagem regarding wounds.
So different rules for Guard and Cult regarding the Guard stratagem and Cult Ambush just feels like arbitrary 'punish one army more because we said so'.
Hopefully GW release a FAQ for One Shot pretty quick.
a lot of the fragile armies like sisters and admech are completely and utterly shit on because
a. eldar and gsc are wildly broken and destroy them
and b. overwatch is presently way WAY too strong
How is overwatch too strong? I've felt like it has been fine so far but I may be using it wrong.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
The later
I’m curious about this too. Yeah the extra flexibility to use it during movement is nice but it’s still only once/turn.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.