Agreed, now is the time in the movie to team up with your hated nemesis against the greater threat that wants to destroy the whole world. We can get back to sticking knives in each other after we sort this out.
You fool!
Everyone knows the best time for knife sticking is just before everything is implemented after sorting stuff out.
Let chaos reign.
Edit
Alternately something something iocaine powder. I dunno. I lost the thread.
Do you think we'd be talking about moving to a new home if there was the slightest possibility you could stop it? I stuck the knife in 2 days ago!!!
i dont think "being able to talk about the penny arcade comic strip" is a concern. you can do that literally anywhere with any comic, and also there's little to discuss
That seems a bit odd to me to say. I guess it depends on your definition of "little"? We tend to discuss the particular strip, the topic of the strip, the content of the newspost that goes with the strip, and all sorts of tangential things that go off it.
Picking somewhat randomly the last 10 strips (or at least the most recent 10 threads, which might or might not wind up being the same), it adds up to 78 messages, so about 8 per strip (this is also the median). It is not uncommon for the count to go in the 20-30 range, especially for a particularly controversial or interesting topic.
This is much busier than many of the other threads I'm subbed to, but definitely less busy in terms of entire subforums.
I do wonder if the approach will be "just shove all talk of the comic into one single thread". I think it would be a shame if it was, and would lose much of what made it appealing. We often have multiple simultaneous comics under discussion, especially as one poster comes in and posts different posts each related to a different comic (like how just in the span of 5 minutes one poster posted to three threads).
I cringe at the thought of trying to keep this part of the community vital if this is what the outcome is. I know it will be much less of a draw to me. While the forums long ago outgrew PA, I would say that if there is any one comic that is most popular with forumites as whole, it would be PA. I don't think a little special treatment (like a subforum just for the comic) is asking a whole lot.
+2
RamiusJoined: July 19, 2000Administrator, ClubPAadmin
While I'd agree that this thread isn't the venue for it, there needs to be an actual venue to discuss the cultural schism between certain members of the board, if only because porting that toxicity to a new venue unaddressed - even if we don't necessarily agree about the source of that conflict - seems like a recipe for disaster.
Yes. Mod staff are in agreement on this.
+10
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
I don't think a little special treatment (like a subforum just for the comic) is asking a whole lot.
An entire subforum dedicated to Penny Arcade, in whatever form a new forum takes, would only remind me that they severed the connection with this community.
Folks can post PA comics in a web-comic thread, just like any other web-comic, but elevating PA to have their own dedicated subforum would rub me the wrong way.
+35
syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Teamregular
It will be very odd if the end of this migration has us in the same place where we have a games forum, a structured discussion forum for media/culture/politics/news, and an unstructured discussion forum with... media/culture/politics/news/games.
How this whole thing gets sorted out I have no idea, there are decades of reasons how we ended up where we are. But, like, maybe it would be nice if the comics, movies, music, streaming and othersuch threads had a media forum that everyone hung out in to talk media? And games talk could happen in the games forum?
There really isn't anything "debate-y" about the Marvel Movies thread and I know that some of the less contentious topics have folks from all forums hop across lines and participate. Feels like as good a time as any to do something like this if we are moving and new forum structures are likely to happen.
+7
Sir FabulousMalevolent Squid GodRegistered Userregular
I don't think a little special treatment (like a subforum just for the comic) is asking a whole lot.
An entire subforum dedicated to Penny Arcade, in whatever form a new forum takes, would only remind me that they severed the connection with this community.
Folks can post PA comics in a web-comic thread, just like any other web-comic, but elevating PA to have their own dedicated subforum would rub me the wrong way.
Yeah, if they're not willing to be associated with us anymore I don't see why we should try to preserve our 'heritage' or whatever.
Make a Penny Arcade Comics thread for all I care. I bet it will hardly see any posts.
Sir Fabulous on
Switch Friend Code: SW-1406-1275-7906
+4
cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
While I'd agree that this thread isn't the venue for it, there needs to be an actual venue to discuss the cultural schism between certain members of the board, if only because porting that toxicity to a new venue unaddressed - even if we don't necessarily agree about the source of that conflict - seems like a recipe for disaster.
I won't drag up a dead horse, but while you can clearly see the divide in tone between D&D and SE++, for instance, there's plenty of times where members from both have no issues with mixed interactions. The holiday forum always goes off without a hitch, so there's a precedence that it'll all smooth itself over one way or another.
i dont think "being able to talk about the penny arcade comic strip" is a concern. you can do that literally anywhere with any comic, and also there's little to discuss
That seems a bit odd to me to say. I guess it depends on your definition of "little"? We tend to discuss the particular strip, the topic of the strip, the content of the newspost that goes with the strip, and all sorts of tangential things that go off it.
Picking somewhat randomly the last 10 strips (or at least the most recent 10 threads, which might or might not wind up being the same), it adds up to 78 messages, so about 8 per strip (this is also the median). It is not uncommon for the count to go in the 20-30 range, especially for a particularly controversial or interesting topic.
This is much busier than many of the other threads I'm subbed to, but definitely less busy in terms of entire subforums.
I do wonder if the approach will be "just shove all talk of the comic into one single thread". I think it would be a shame if it was, and would lose much of what made it appealing. We often have multiple simultaneous comics under discussion, especially as one poster comes in and posts different posts each related to a different comic (like how just in the span of 5 minutes one poster posted to three threads).
I cringe at the thought of trying to keep this part of the community vital if this is what the outcome is. I know it will be much less of a draw to me. While the forums long ago outgrew PA, I would say that if there is any one comic that is most popular with forumites as whole, it would be PA. I don't think a little special treatment (like a subforum just for the comic) is asking a whole lot.
It is part of the heritage of the forums, and while it's too soon to make these discussions, it's also a small ask: one subforum to remember where why this all came together seems appropriate.
So, just some thoughts about talking about NuForum and the subforum I see that's getting prepped for that discussion:
1. We should definitely have separate discussions for the technical aspect, the legal/funding aspect, and the community aspect. This thread is bouncing around between these things and it's already pretty overwhelming.
This thread is basically "here's the news and a space for your immediate reactions/thoughts about it over the weekend." We're setting up something more structured for starting to think about specific sub-issues, start working out organizing the whole thing, etc., hopefully this evening.
When the planning subforum spins up, we should probably have a rule that it's not the right place for jokes/banter/shitposts. Migrating, if we're gonna do it successfully, is a complex project and should be handled like one.
Yes, I agree - maybe there could be a joke thread for people who just want to post silly name ideas etc., and the rest of the discussions can be on-topic.
edit - regarding the multi-forum discussion, I think it would be fine to retain SE++, D&D, and G&T. People who want to post more randomly/brief takes/jokes can go to SE++, people who want to write more can stay in the other forums. There's room for everyone.
When the planning subforum spins up, we should probably have a rule that it's not the right place for jokes/banter/shitposts. Migrating, if we're gonna do it successfully, is a complex project and should be handled like one.
Yes, I agree - maybe there could be a joke thread for people who just want to post silly name ideas etc., and the rest of the discussions can be on-topic.
I kinda disagree with this, even the biggest crisis meeting at work still has room for some humor to dissipate tension. Excessive joke tangents can be told to quit it but we're not going to get anywhere with this crew if you try and mandate 100% serious time.
When the planning subforum spins up, we should probably have a rule that it's not the right place for jokes/banter/shitposts. Migrating, if we're gonna do it successfully, is a complex project and should be handled like one.
Yes, I agree - maybe there could be a joke thread for people who just want to post silly name ideas etc., and the rest of the discussions can be on-topic.
That's what the "Reaction suggestions" thread will be for. It'll be the place where we have all our hot takes on the color of the agree icon while Ramius will just be spinning up the mySQL server free from "No, we need to go for perconaDB, it's 5% faster!"
0
Havelock3.0What are you?Some kind of half-assed astronaut?Registered Userregular
When the planning subforum spins up, we should probably have a rule that it's not the right place for jokes/banter/shitposts. Migrating, if we're gonna do it successfully, is a complex project and should be handled like one.
Yes, I agree - maybe there could be a joke thread for people who just want to post silly name ideas etc., and the rest of the discussions can be on-topic.
I kinda disagree with this, even the biggest crisis meeting at work still has room for some humor to dissipate tension. Excessive joke tangents can be told to quit it but we're not going to get anywhere with this crew if you try and mandate 100% serious time.
The irreverence is what makes this place
You go in the cage, cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water, our shark.
Folks have thrown out the idea of an annual fundraiser to fund the nu-forums, akin to PBS, and I honestly don't think that's a bad way to go about it.
Instead of demanding every user pony up money every month, just do a big fundraising initiative once a year.
You can even have folks offer up projects, pieces of art, and more through a bidding process (but all funds ultimately go to financing the forums).
I think we have enough artists & creatives on the forums that we could have something like, "The top bidder gets to commission a piece of art from me. I can do a high-quality drawing of their favorite D&D character."
And while this method does potentially have challenges of whales putting their thumbs on the scale, it does help navigate around reoccurring financial challenges for users and also presents a community-focused initiative to dress it up in.
Just an idea I had while at work...
This is a good idea! Maybe there could be multiple fundraising avenues. Yearly auction, random donations when people feel like it/have the money, regular monthly recurring subscription.
When the planning subforum spins up, we should probably have a rule that it's not the right place for jokes/banter/shitposts. Migrating, if we're gonna do it successfully, is a complex project and should be handled like one.
Yes, I agree - maybe there could be a joke thread for people who just want to post silly name ideas etc., and the rest of the discussions can be on-topic.
I kinda disagree with this, even the biggest crisis meeting at work still has room for some humor to dissipate tension. Excessive joke tangents can be told to quit it but we're not going to get anywhere with this crew if you try and mandate 100% serious time.
The irreverence is what makes this place
Every new post on the new forums will autogenerate a ChatGPT reply based on historic Drez posts.
Okay, finally caught up on this thread, after discovering it the night before last. Just going to throw out some thoughts now.
First: Thanks to the mods for all they've done, are doing, and will do into the future, however long that may last.
Second: Bummer.
Been coming here on the regular for the last 20 years, as of this past February. So I'm definitely interested in seeing it continue into the future.
Incidentally, I'd hate to lose all my Badgers.
I've always just called this the PA Forums, so some sort of play on the initials is something I'm in favor of, but it's not a deal breaker.
Like, gaming is the thing, right? "Players Association Forums"?
Someone mentioned something like "Two Pence Arcade". "2PA Forums"? As in, like, the second coming of the PA Forums?
Also seen a lot of "Arcadia" references, so I'm chiming in with one: "Neo Arcadia."
Heck, any new users we pick up could be "Neo Arcadians," while the old guard could be something like "Proto Arcadians".
I do agree that charging people to register wouldn't be a good idea. However, that doesn't mean that there can't be paid memberships with certain perks.
Custom titles/roles, maybe something to do with colors (I like it on Discord when I can make my name orange in a server, for example), perhaps a more robust signature. Be able to have logos or something in the background of your posts like Syndalis has -- what is with that, anyway? Maybe have special permissions, like being able to promote your own stuff, like if you're doing a live stream or event? Be allowed to post fan fiction?
I feel like there are perks that can enhance the experience while not excluding people from being part of the community.
Another forum I've been on for around as long as I've been here is using XenForo now, for what it's worth. And another one that maybe not quite as long, but up there.
One of them does have a "Like" system, but it's represented like so:
As the other one doesn't use them at all, I'm sure that aspect is customizable to some degree.
I mean, Neo Arcadia is the obviously right answer, I just assumed it as a "doesn't need a discussion, we're just shitposting lesser names" situation.
Ars Technica uses the XenForo, and they've been able to customize the like system.
Do we need a discussion about that too? Or is "That's so raven" the obvious answer?
I kind of like Players' Association. It's still PA!
Let's just end the split. One subforum for politics and news discussion. One set of mod policies for it that are refined over time. We can work this out. The Eternal Holiday forum.
Make a Penny Arcade Comics thread for all I care. I bet it will hardly see any posts.
You're right, but for the wrong reasons. It will see hardly any posts, because it's so much less optimal way to try to discuss a rapidly changing topic (as I explained in detail). And so people like me will probably move on to other pastures.
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I think that in the transition to a new forum, retired mods should not have a mod badge or access to the forum where moderating decisions are made. I think it creates too much confusion, causes too much drama, and makes people act without reprecussions. Being unable to infract a retired mod is extremely bad and utterly hamstrings the current mod staff on whether they tiptoe on eggshells with ex-colleagues (or just fight) behind closed doors.
You can make a separate place like the hall of ghosts for ex-mods to commiserate if there is a pressing need for people to share with each other, but there absolutely should not be a continuity of the current system.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I think that in the transition to a new forum, retired mods should not have a mod badge or access to the forum where moderating decisions are made. I think it creates too much confusion, causes too much drama, and makes people act without reprecussions. Being unable to infract a retired mod is extremely bad and utterly hamstrings the current mod staff on whether they tiptoe on eggshells with ex-colleagues (or just fight) behind closed doors.
You can make a separate place like the hall of ghosts for ex-mods to commiserate if there is a pressing need for people to share with each other, but there absolutely should not be a continuity of the current system.
I think this has more to do with the fact that those are load-bearing accounts in the Vanilla forums: Removing their status actually breaks stuff, and Vanilla is not really that interested in fixing stuff, they're more in the "Hold up hand and recieve money" side of SaaS. (I got this information from hear-say, btw, the actual mods can explain this better or correct me if I'm wrong)
This can be changed if we switched to different forum software.
+4
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
We're setting up something more structured for starting to think about specific sub-issues, start working out organizing the whole thing, etc., hopefully this evening.
Hey, since there is talk of migrating the boards, I'm requesting some transparency about what data PA is currently holding on users and how much of it might be used to identify someone from the forum, as well as what data, if any, would be transferred and to whom. As well as whether users will be able to opt out of this transfer. I know this is an arse and a bit of a downer, but after some of the behaviour in the past few years, this is something I'm concerned about. Thank you.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
+2
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
Make a Penny Arcade Comics thread for all I care. I bet it will hardly see any posts.
You're right, but for the wrong reasons. It will see hardly any posts, because it's so much less optimal way to try to discuss a rapidly changing topic (as I explained in detail). And so people like me will probably move on to other pastures.
A thread won't see enough traffic, so it should get an entire sub-forum?
I'm sorry, what??
+13
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I think that in the transition to a new forum, retired mods should not have a mod badge or access to the forum where moderating decisions are made. I think it creates too much confusion, causes too much drama, and makes people act without reprecussions. Being unable to infract a retired mod is extremely bad and utterly hamstrings the current mod staff on whether they tiptoe on eggshells with ex-colleagues (or just fight) behind closed doors.
You can make a separate place like the hall of ghosts for ex-mods to commiserate if there is a pressing need for people to share with each other, but there absolutely should not be a continuity of the current system.
I think this has more to do with the fact that those are load-bearing accounts in the Vanilla forums: Removing their status actually breaks stuff, and Vanilla is not really that interested in fixing stuff, they're more in the "Hold up hand and recieve money" side of SaaS. (I got this information from hear-say, btw, the actual mods can explain this better or correct me if I'm wrong)
This can be changed if we switched to different forum software.
It really, emphatically, does not based on my memory. There is an issue about keeping permissions, but you can demod people without the entire thing going up in smoke.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Make a Penny Arcade Comics thread for all I care. I bet it will hardly see any posts.
You're right, but for the wrong reasons. It will see hardly any posts, because it's so much less optimal way to try to discuss a rapidly changing topic (as I explained in detail). And so people like me will probably move on to other pastures.
A thread won't see enough traffic, so it should get an entire sub-forum?
I'm sorry, what??
I kind of get it. I don't really care much about the PA comic anymore, but some people might have made a daily habit of chatting about the comics for years. I'm a musician, and I wouldn't miss the artists' corner forum but that's only because I participate in some other music-focused boards. If it was my only outlet I might be upset at losing it.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Make a Penny Arcade Comics thread for all I care. I bet it will hardly see any posts.
You're right, but for the wrong reasons. It will see hardly any posts, because it's so much less optimal way to try to discuss a rapidly changing topic (as I explained in detail). And so people like me will probably move on to other pastures.
A thread won't see enough traffic, so it should get an entire sub-forum?
I'm sorry, what??
That is literally the justification for the creative forums and H/A. But I don't think there should be a forum dedicated to PA comics because we are not trying to actively encourage that aspect of our community.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
It will be very odd if the end of this migration has us in the same place where we have a games forum, a structured discussion forum for media/culture/politics/news, and an unstructured discussion forum with... media/culture/politics/news/games.
How this whole thing gets sorted out I have no idea, there are decades of reasons how we ended up where we are. But, like, maybe it would be nice if the comics, movies, music, streaming and othersuch threads had a media forum that everyone hung out in to talk media? And games talk could happen in the games forum?
There really isn't anything "debate-y" about the Marvel Movies thread and I know that some of the less contentious topics have folks from all forums hop across lines and participate. Feels like as good a time as any to do something like this if we are moving and new forum structures are likely to happen.
Let's just end the split. One subforum for politics and news discussion. One set of mod policies for it that are refined over time. We can work this out. The Eternal Holiday forum.
I think these are both good points.
If we go into a new forum with defined G&T, D&D, and SE++ subforums it just persists the existing cliques and calcified tensions between them. We also end up with multiple redundant threads that further divide a shrinking community and discourage mingling and interaction between those communities, or topics some people would maybe like to engage in but since the active thread on that topic is in the 'other' subcommunity they don't want anything to do with it.
While I think there is always some risk of cliques reforming and setting up shop in 'their' subforum, reshuffling things into more logical topic-based or theme-based subforums instead of dividing things into multiple subcommunities may make more sense. And certainly the 'Politics & World News' subforum is going to probably have a different vibe and moderation standard than the 'Casual Interactions' (um, let's workshop that one) social club subforum.
I also think that with a small (six mods + Ramius?) staff, having mods assigned to one subsection where they largely ignore the rest seems like it is counter-productive for long-term moderation. There's no reason that there can't be a consensus on how different subtopics should be moderated and standards for posting there established by consensus that can be consistently enforced by the whole moderator community.
Of course, there may also be a feeling that the distinct cultures of the separate subforums are a more valuable thing and point to preserve, or that there is no downside to keeping our relatively small user community fragmented into separate smaller communities as long as that culture is preserved. Or that people can't move past the current sets of beefs and cliques and if forced things are just going to blow up. Which I guess is part of more discussions that need to be had.
+7
minor incidentpublicly subsidized!privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
The holiday forum always goes off without a hitch, so there's a precedence that it'll all smooth itself over one way or another.
I unironically enjoy the holiday forums, but hoooooo buddy, if they went on for literally 2 seconds longer than they do, there would be chaos. I mean, the fireworks usually start kicking off a few days into it, as-is.
I don't know what the solution is for the cultural clash situation that would actually appease everyone (insofar as a solution like that even exists), but I think jamming everyone together and saying "get along!" is probably not the best way to go about it.
Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
Make a Penny Arcade Comics thread for all I care. I bet it will hardly see any posts.
You're right, but for the wrong reasons. It will see hardly any posts, because it's so much less optimal way to try to discuss a rapidly changing topic (as I explained in detail). And so people like me will probably move on to other pastures.
A thread won't see enough traffic, so it should get an entire sub-forum?
I'm sorry, what??
That is literally the justification for the creative forums and H/A. But I don't think there should be a forum dedicated to PA comics because we are not trying to actively encourage that aspect of our community.
I think having a general Comics subforum, where people can create a new thread to discuss each individual PA comic (if there is enough activity), each individual <whatever - XKCD, SMBC, etc) comic (if there is enough activity), or a running thread just as ongoing discussion about a particular comic / storyline (if that's all the activity it supports) is fine.
I think it's kinda irrelevant if there is one PA comic mega-thread or three new individual PA comic threads a week mixed in with occasional threads for other comics.
Honestly, with how the election might go, it may be better if there wasn't an easily accessible database of people on the left (leftist and liberal) and their opinions.
The holiday forum always goes off without a hitch, so there's a precedence that it'll all smooth itself over one way or another.
I unironically enjoy the holiday forums, but hoooooo buddy, if they went on for literally 2 seconds longer than they do, there would be chaos. I mean, the fireworks usually start kicking off a few days into it, as-is.
I don't know what the solution is for the cultural clash situation that would actually appease everyone (insofar as a solution like that even exists), but I think jamming everyone together and saying "get along!" is probably not the best way to go about it.
I don't have that much time to follow most threads, and tend to stick to a few. So I was super suprised at how explosive the Holiday forums were. The new forums should have a "recap" functions, telling me personally why people are angry at each other.
I still don't know why the cat was banned, I always thought they were a mod, and then suddenly, gone. (edit: in the spirit of keeping this on topic, I don't particullary need to know either)
Keep in mind that it is generally easier to add subforums than it is to remove them. (And that's going to be generally true for any forum platform that supports subforums at all.)
It makes more sense to start with a relatively small number of subforums, and then add more over time if they're needed.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
The holiday forum always goes off without a hitch, so there's a precedence that it'll all smooth itself over one way or another.
I unironically enjoy the holiday forums, but hoooooo buddy, if they went on for literally 2 seconds longer than they do, there would be chaos. I mean, the fireworks usually start kicking off a few days into it, as-is.
I don't know what the solution is for the cultural clash situation that would actually appease everyone (insofar as a solution like that even exists), but I think jamming everyone together and saying "get along!" is probably not the best way to go about it.
I don't have that much time to follow most threads, and tend to stick to a few. So I was super suprised at how explosive the Holiday forums were. The new forums should have a "recap" functions, telling me personally why people are angry at each other.
I still don't know why the cat was banned, I always thought they were a mod, and then suddenly, gone. (edit: in the spirit of keeping this on topic, I don't particullary need to know either)
How would a "recap" function work, if not relying on genAI (eg, ChatGPT)?
I doubt the majority of our members would be comfortable with their posts fed into ChatGPT (above and beyond what gets scraped anyway by Google). And even if they were, large language genAI is currently in a loss-leader strategy. It's "free" because investors keep it afloat. Someday in the near future OpenAI et. al. will have to monetize and it'll turn into a monetary cost.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
The holiday forum always goes off without a hitch, so there's a precedence that it'll all smooth itself over one way or another.
I unironically enjoy the holiday forums, but hoooooo buddy, if they went on for literally 2 seconds longer than they do, there would be chaos. I mean, the fireworks usually start kicking off a few days into it, as-is.
I don't know what the solution is for the cultural clash situation that would actually appease everyone (insofar as a solution like that even exists), but I think jamming everyone together and saying "get along!" is probably not the best way to go about it.
I don't have that much time to follow most threads, and tend to stick to a few. So I was super suprised at how explosive the Holiday forums were. The new forums should have a "recap" functions, telling me personally why people are angry at each other.
I still don't know why the cat was banned, I always thought they were a mod, and then suddenly, gone. (edit: in the spirit of keeping this on topic, I don't particullary need to know either)
How would a "recap" function work, if not relying on genAI (eg, ChatGPT)?
Finely-handcrafted summaries meticulously assembled by whichever mod is grumpiest at the time.
+14
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
If we keep reactions around, I'm not sure it's a good idea to make public the knowledge of who has more Agrees/Awesomes/Whatever to their profile than anyone else. It creates a weird social clout system that has become ingrained in this place in a not very great way.
And please note that I am not saying get rid of seeing reactions on posts, or of knowing your own reaction count. That stuff is probably fine, in my estimation. I just don't think we need a Internet Points Leaderboard anymore.
Is there an actual leaderboard? I legitimately don't even know if one exists. And if it does, and people are actively checking it...go outside and touch some grass.
And holy shit words cannot describe how much I don't care about how many Agrees/Awesomes someone has. If someone bragged to me about it my eyes would roll so far back into my head I would be able to see my own taint.
The holiday forum always goes off without a hitch, so there's a precedence that it'll all smooth itself over one way or another.
I unironically enjoy the holiday forums, but hoooooo buddy, if they went on for literally 2 seconds longer than they do, there would be chaos. I mean, the fireworks usually start kicking off a few days into it, as-is.
I don't know what the solution is for the cultural clash situation that would actually appease everyone (insofar as a solution like that even exists), but I think jamming everyone together and saying "get along!" is probably not the best way to go about it.
I don't have that much time to follow most threads, and tend to stick to a few. So I was super suprised at how explosive the Holiday forums were. The new forums should have a "recap" functions, telling me personally why people are angry at each other.
I still don't know why the cat was banned, I always thought they were a mod, and then suddenly, gone. (edit: in the spirit of keeping this on topic, I don't particullary need to know either)
How would a "recap" function work, if not relying on genAI (eg, ChatGPT)?
I doubt the majority of our members would be comfortable with their posts fed into ChatGPT (above and beyond what gets scraped anyway by Google). And even if they were, large language genAI is currently in a loss-leader strategy. It's "free" because investors keep it afloat. Someday in the near future OpenAI et. al. will have to monetize and it'll turn into a monetary cost.
Yeah, in theory we have the banned and infraction thread for this, but it's an administrative burden that's hard on the mods.
(I'm basing that last part on the fact that most bans from it are missing, and half of them are a one sentence basically saying "banned for being an asshole" and that's fair enough, I guess.)
I don't know the right answer, but it's kind of impossible right now to follow these things unless you were a part of it, especially in chat-like threads.
And that doesn't feel right with a forum?
Dibbit on
+1
minor incidentpublicly subsidized!privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
If we keep reactions around, I'm not sure it's a good idea to make public the knowledge of who has more Agrees/Awesomes/Whatever to their profile than anyone else. It creates a weird social clout system that has become ingrained in this place in a not very great way.
And please note that I am not saying get rid of seeing reactions on posts, or of knowing your own reaction count. That stuff is probably fine, in my estimation. I just don't think we need a Internet Points Leaderboard anymore.
Is there an actual leaderboard? I legitimately don't even know if one exists. And if it does, and people are actively checking it...go outside and touch some grass.
And holy shit words cannot describe how much I don't care about how many Agrees/Awesomes someone has. If someone bragged to me about it my eyes would roll so far back into my head I would be able to see my own taint.
Sounds like something someone with only 15k awesomes would say.
Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
If we keep reactions around, I'm not sure it's a good idea to make public the knowledge of who has more Agrees/Awesomes/Whatever to their profile than anyone else. It creates a weird social clout system that has become ingrained in this place in a not very great way.
And please note that I am not saying get rid of seeing reactions on posts, or of knowing your own reaction count. That stuff is probably fine, in my estimation. I just don't think we need a Internet Points Leaderboard anymore.
Is there an actual leaderboard? I legitimately don't even know if one exists. And if it does, and people are actively checking it...go outside and touch some grass.
And holy shit words cannot describe how much I don't care about how many Agrees/Awesomes someone has. If someone bragged to me about it my eyes would roll so far back into my head I would be able to see my own taint.
Sounds like something someone with only 15k awesomes would say.
:-(
... don't worry about porting my stuff over, there's nothing of value to be found within.
hello darkness my old friend...
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
If we keep reactions around, I'm not sure it's a good idea to make public the knowledge of who has more Agrees/Awesomes/Whatever to their profile than anyone else. It creates a weird social clout system that has become ingrained in this place in a not very great way.
And please note that I am not saying get rid of seeing reactions on posts, or of knowing your own reaction count. That stuff is probably fine, in my estimation. I just don't think we need a Internet Points Leaderboard anymore.
Is there an actual leaderboard? I legitimately don't even know if one exists. And if it does, and people are actively checking it...go outside and touch some grass.
And holy shit words cannot describe how much I don't care about how many Agrees/Awesomes someone has. If someone bragged to me about it my eyes would roll so far back into my head I would be able to see my own taint.
there are some badges associated with it.
I never check badges, or even most profiles. (Especially not since I know the joke is that April fools badges are broken, but it just...rubs me the wrong way to see that list)
But fishing for a row of agrees is something I can see happening. Also, having a discussion and seeing people pile agrees on the obviously wrong person (i.e. not me) can be a bit disheartening.
But (as was previously addressed somewhere) otherwise you'd just get a million "Limed" or "This" one liners. And Yeah, sometimes you don't have more to contribute then "I agree with this statement, and wish to subscribe to its newsletter"
Make a Penny Arcade Comics thread for all I care. I bet it will hardly see any posts.
You're right, but for the wrong reasons. It will see hardly any posts, because it's so much less optimal way to try to discuss a rapidly changing topic (as I explained in detail). And so people like me will probably move on to other pastures.
A thread won't see enough traffic, so it should get an entire sub-forum?
I'm sorry, what??
I feel like people are intentionally giving hot takes rather than actually reading what I've written, to support their own feeling that it'd "rub them the wrong way" or whatnot.
But I will repeat what I already said anyway:
Currently, the subforum has a thread per comic. This allows many different discussions to run in parallel without a ton of crosstalk. Every comic (and the newspost connected) is generally about a different topic, so the conversations have little to do with each other.
This subforum gets an amount of posts that falls between the "lots of very hot threads" and "a bare trickle that's fine for one thread."
Crushing these into a single thread will make it much harder to know what each post is talking about, without somehow everyone meticulously including context each time.
Hence, you've succeeded in making it an uncomfortable venue to have the kinds of discussions that have been happening regularly there for years. You will then get a self-fulfilling prophecy of "see, no one posts there."
Personally, I'm surprised that there seems to be sections of the community (I have no idea how large, as you can't really equate that with vocality) that aren't just PA-ambivalent but downright PA-hostile. I mean, I get the historical reasons why but... *shrug* we're part of the community? Or, at least I thought we were. I guess I'm rethinking that.
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Do you think we'd be talking about moving to a new home if there was the slightest possibility you could stop it? I stuck the knife in 2 days ago!!!
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Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
That seems a bit odd to me to say. I guess it depends on your definition of "little"? We tend to discuss the particular strip, the topic of the strip, the content of the newspost that goes with the strip, and all sorts of tangential things that go off it.
Picking somewhat randomly the last 10 strips (or at least the most recent 10 threads, which might or might not wind up being the same), it adds up to 78 messages, so about 8 per strip (this is also the median). It is not uncommon for the count to go in the 20-30 range, especially for a particularly controversial or interesting topic.
This is much busier than many of the other threads I'm subbed to, but definitely less busy in terms of entire subforums.
I do wonder if the approach will be "just shove all talk of the comic into one single thread". I think it would be a shame if it was, and would lose much of what made it appealing. We often have multiple simultaneous comics under discussion, especially as one poster comes in and posts different posts each related to a different comic (like how just in the span of 5 minutes one poster posted to three threads).
I cringe at the thought of trying to keep this part of the community vital if this is what the outcome is. I know it will be much less of a draw to me. While the forums long ago outgrew PA, I would say that if there is any one comic that is most popular with forumites as whole, it would be PA. I don't think a little special treatment (like a subforum just for the comic) is asking a whole lot.
Yes. Mod staff are in agreement on this.
An entire subforum dedicated to Penny Arcade, in whatever form a new forum takes, would only remind me that they severed the connection with this community.
Folks can post PA comics in a web-comic thread, just like any other web-comic, but elevating PA to have their own dedicated subforum would rub me the wrong way.
How this whole thing gets sorted out I have no idea, there are decades of reasons how we ended up where we are. But, like, maybe it would be nice if the comics, movies, music, streaming and othersuch threads had a media forum that everyone hung out in to talk media? And games talk could happen in the games forum?
There really isn't anything "debate-y" about the Marvel Movies thread and I know that some of the less contentious topics have folks from all forums hop across lines and participate. Feels like as good a time as any to do something like this if we are moving and new forum structures are likely to happen.
Yeah, if they're not willing to be associated with us anymore I don't see why we should try to preserve our 'heritage' or whatever.
Make a Penny Arcade Comics thread for all I care. I bet it will hardly see any posts.
Switch Friend Code: SW-1406-1275-7906
I won't drag up a dead horse, but while you can clearly see the divide in tone between D&D and SE++, for instance, there's plenty of times where members from both have no issues with mixed interactions. The holiday forum always goes off without a hitch, so there's a precedence that it'll all smooth itself over one way or another.
It is part of the heritage of the forums, and while it's too soon to make these discussions, it's also a small ask: one subforum to remember where why this all came together seems appropriate.
This thread is basically "here's the news and a space for your immediate reactions/thoughts about it over the weekend." We're setting up something more structured for starting to think about specific sub-issues, start working out organizing the whole thing, etc., hopefully this evening.
Yes, I agree - maybe there could be a joke thread for people who just want to post silly name ideas etc., and the rest of the discussions can be on-topic.
edit - regarding the multi-forum discussion, I think it would be fine to retain SE++, D&D, and G&T. People who want to post more randomly/brief takes/jokes can go to SE++, people who want to write more can stay in the other forums. There's room for everyone.
I kinda disagree with this, even the biggest crisis meeting at work still has room for some humor to dissipate tension. Excessive joke tangents can be told to quit it but we're not going to get anywhere with this crew if you try and mandate 100% serious time.
That's what the "Reaction suggestions" thread will be for. It'll be the place where we have all our hot takes on the color of the agree icon while Ramius will just be spinning up the mySQL server free from "No, we need to go for perconaDB, it's 5% faster!"
The irreverence is what makes this place
This is a good idea! Maybe there could be multiple fundraising avenues. Yearly auction, random donations when people feel like it/have the money, regular monthly recurring subscription.
Every new post on the new forums will autogenerate a ChatGPT reply based on historic Drez posts.
I kind of like Players' Association.
Maybe just a generic "webcomics" section, and if people want to fill it with PA related threads then go ahead?
You're right, but for the wrong reasons. It will see hardly any posts, because it's so much less optimal way to try to discuss a rapidly changing topic (as I explained in detail). And so people like me will probably move on to other pastures.
You can make a separate place like the hall of ghosts for ex-mods to commiserate if there is a pressing need for people to share with each other, but there absolutely should not be a continuity of the current system.
I think this has more to do with the fact that those are load-bearing accounts in the Vanilla forums: Removing their status actually breaks stuff, and Vanilla is not really that interested in fixing stuff, they're more in the "Hold up hand and recieve money" side of SaaS. (I got this information from hear-say, btw, the actual mods can explain this better or correct me if I'm wrong)
This can be changed if we switched to different forum software.
A thread won't see enough traffic, so it should get an entire sub-forum?
I'm sorry, what??
It really, emphatically, does not based on my memory. There is an issue about keeping permissions, but you can demod people without the entire thing going up in smoke.
I kind of get it. I don't really care much about the PA comic anymore, but some people might have made a daily habit of chatting about the comics for years. I'm a musician, and I wouldn't miss the artists' corner forum but that's only because I participate in some other music-focused boards. If it was my only outlet I might be upset at losing it.
That is literally the justification for the creative forums and H/A. But I don't think there should be a forum dedicated to PA comics because we are not trying to actively encourage that aspect of our community.
I think these are both good points.
If we go into a new forum with defined G&T, D&D, and SE++ subforums it just persists the existing cliques and calcified tensions between them. We also end up with multiple redundant threads that further divide a shrinking community and discourage mingling and interaction between those communities, or topics some people would maybe like to engage in but since the active thread on that topic is in the 'other' subcommunity they don't want anything to do with it.
While I think there is always some risk of cliques reforming and setting up shop in 'their' subforum, reshuffling things into more logical topic-based or theme-based subforums instead of dividing things into multiple subcommunities may make more sense. And certainly the 'Politics & World News' subforum is going to probably have a different vibe and moderation standard than the 'Casual Interactions' (um, let's workshop that one) social club subforum.
I also think that with a small (six mods + Ramius?) staff, having mods assigned to one subsection where they largely ignore the rest seems like it is counter-productive for long-term moderation. There's no reason that there can't be a consensus on how different subtopics should be moderated and standards for posting there established by consensus that can be consistently enforced by the whole moderator community.
Of course, there may also be a feeling that the distinct cultures of the separate subforums are a more valuable thing and point to preserve, or that there is no downside to keeping our relatively small user community fragmented into separate smaller communities as long as that culture is preserved. Or that people can't move past the current sets of beefs and cliques and if forced things are just going to blow up. Which I guess is part of more discussions that need to be had.
I unironically enjoy the holiday forums, but hoooooo buddy, if they went on for literally 2 seconds longer than they do, there would be chaos. I mean, the fireworks usually start kicking off a few days into it, as-is.
I don't know what the solution is for the cultural clash situation that would actually appease everyone (insofar as a solution like that even exists), but I think jamming everyone together and saying "get along!" is probably not the best way to go about it.
I think having a general Comics subforum, where people can create a new thread to discuss each individual PA comic (if there is enough activity), each individual <whatever - XKCD, SMBC, etc) comic (if there is enough activity), or a running thread just as ongoing discussion about a particular comic / storyline (if that's all the activity it supports) is fine.
I think it's kinda irrelevant if there is one PA comic mega-thread or three new individual PA comic threads a week mixed in with occasional threads for other comics.
"Enemy Within" and all that.
I don't have that much time to follow most threads, and tend to stick to a few. So I was super suprised at how explosive the Holiday forums were. The new forums should have a "recap" functions, telling me personally why people are angry at each other.
I still don't know why the cat was banned, I always thought they were a mod, and then suddenly, gone. (edit: in the spirit of keeping this on topic, I don't particullary need to know either)
It makes more sense to start with a relatively small number of subforums, and then add more over time if they're needed.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
How would a "recap" function work, if not relying on genAI (eg, ChatGPT)?
I doubt the majority of our members would be comfortable with their posts fed into ChatGPT (above and beyond what gets scraped anyway by Google). And even if they were, large language genAI is currently in a loss-leader strategy. It's "free" because investors keep it afloat. Someday in the near future OpenAI et. al. will have to monetize and it'll turn into a monetary cost.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Finely-handcrafted summaries meticulously assembled by whichever mod is grumpiest at the time.
Is there an actual leaderboard? I legitimately don't even know if one exists. And if it does, and people are actively checking it...go outside and touch some grass.
And holy shit words cannot describe how much I don't care about how many Agrees/Awesomes someone has. If someone bragged to me about it my eyes would roll so far back into my head I would be able to see my own taint.
Yeah, in theory we have the banned and infraction thread for this, but it's an administrative burden that's hard on the mods.
(I'm basing that last part on the fact that most bans from it are missing, and half of them are a one sentence basically saying "banned for being an asshole" and that's fair enough, I guess.)
I don't know the right answer, but it's kind of impossible right now to follow these things unless you were a part of it, especially in chat-like threads.
And that doesn't feel right with a forum?
Sounds like something someone with only 15k awesomes would say.
:-(
... don't worry about porting my stuff over, there's nothing of value to be found within.
hello darkness my old friend...
there are some badges associated with it.
I never check badges, or even most profiles. (Especially not since I know the joke is that April fools badges are broken, but it just...rubs me the wrong way to see that list)
But fishing for a row of agrees is something I can see happening. Also, having a discussion and seeing people pile agrees on the obviously wrong person (i.e. not me) can be a bit disheartening.
But (as was previously addressed somewhere) otherwise you'd just get a million "Limed" or "This" one liners. And Yeah, sometimes you don't have more to contribute then "I agree with this statement, and wish to subscribe to its newsletter"
I feel like people are intentionally giving hot takes rather than actually reading what I've written, to support their own feeling that it'd "rub them the wrong way" or whatnot.
But I will repeat what I already said anyway:
Currently, the subforum has a thread per comic. This allows many different discussions to run in parallel without a ton of crosstalk. Every comic (and the newspost connected) is generally about a different topic, so the conversations have little to do with each other.
This subforum gets an amount of posts that falls between the "lots of very hot threads" and "a bare trickle that's fine for one thread."
Crushing these into a single thread will make it much harder to know what each post is talking about, without somehow everyone meticulously including context each time.
Hence, you've succeeded in making it an uncomfortable venue to have the kinds of discussions that have been happening regularly there for years. You will then get a self-fulfilling prophecy of "see, no one posts there."
Personally, I'm surprised that there seems to be sections of the community (I have no idea how large, as you can't really equate that with vocality) that aren't just PA-ambivalent but downright PA-hostile. I mean, I get the historical reasons why but... *shrug* we're part of the community? Or, at least I thought we were. I guess I'm rethinking that.