ahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
In my minds eye the overall forum is a large house. or office building.
each current subforum is it's own wing of the larger house/office.
People have chosen which wing they wish to live/work in over time. Some people move from wing to wing, or hot desk from office to office.
For a while, i floated between wings, hanging with different groups of friends/colleagues etc. Until one wing became decidedly too toxic for me and I chose to leave that behind for myself and my mental wellbeing.
that was a choice that I made for myself.
Holiday forums is one great big office/block party where everyone is forced to exist in the same space as each other for a period of time. However, it's decidedly full of discomfort because you may not know, like, trust the people that you are suddenly being forced to interact with. Or there's a person who you purposefully avoid for your own safety, but who is now next to you in line for food and drink and trying to talk to you as if they have no idea how miserable they make you feel about yourself and everything else.
Some people get 'driven off' from areas of the forum, sure fine. Shouldn't happen but it does. But sometimes other choose to leave for their own health & safety. And going from a house with separate wings, or an office with different areas and smooshing it all together into one big open plan zone is just.... it's hard to take. If the overall feeling of this new and improved proposal is going to feel the same as the Holiday Forums does.... well you're going to lose more people. Especially people that don't like Open Plan Offices.
I think an actual beta test for merging some topics would be great
Spin up a sports subforum and make everybody go there to talk about sports for a month, see how it goes
Actually, for any of the mods/TT, why don't we do this, since we now have some basic control over the current forum? Set up a beta test sub-forum to merge some topics and see how it goes. If it all combusts, then we know. If it blossoms into something beyond our wildest dreams, then we know we have something to go by.
Delz has a beta forum up and running that folks are constantly trying to break. I'm not sure that setting up something in Vanilla would be a good test run.
This is a bit tangential but
Despite everyone's best efforts to fuck up my shit, nothing has gone haywire. Y'all aren't ready for how much better the software is.
... are you bringing back the classics, and telling us that "[We] are NOT PREPARED!"?
U R NOT e
0
MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
I think an actual beta test for merging some topics would be great
Spin up a sports subforum and make everybody go there to talk about sports for a month, see how it goes
Actually, for any of the mods/TT, why don't we do this, since we now have some basic control over the current forum? Set up a beta test sub-forum to merge some topics and see how it goes. If it all combusts, then we know. If it blossoms into something beyond our wildest dreams, then we know we have something to go by.
Delz has a beta forum up and running that folks are constantly trying to break. I'm not sure that setting up something in Vanilla would be a good test run.
This is a bit tangential but
Despite everyone's best efforts to fuck up my shit, nothing has gone haywire. Y'all aren't ready for how much better the software is.
... are you bringing back the classics, and telling us that "[We] are NOT PREPARED!"?
No but stepping into this role has felt a little like ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL
I haven't seen an insufficient holiday cheer infraction since Tube left, personally, and couldn't find any in a quick search of the old holiday forums
Doesn't really change the fact that it wasn't clear of this was a thing people could express dislike of, where would be appropriate to do it, and the concern of folks wanting the mods to have a break even if they disliked the holiday forums.
I dunno. Like, this is a weird thing to push back on when you've got folks here telling you what they thought. "Well you shouldn't have thought that way!" Ok sure? But some of us did still.
Sure, I know now people thought that it still wasn't allowed. I also know that there were people that disliked the holiday forums, plenty of folks were vocal about that.
But I am pushing back on statements like this, which are categorically false:
But it's always been against the rules to complain about it so people mostly grumble in PMs or Discords or whatever.
It was previously against the rules, yes, and some people may have believed it was still against the rules. But I want to correct the record that it was not against the rules this year, doesn't seem to have been against the rules for a few years prior, and therefore was not "always against the rules."
I don't think there is a significant number of people who fear they'll get infracted if they mention in the Holiday forum that they don't like the Holiday forum. Maybe there's a few, but probably only a few.
The reason you're not hearing a lot of vocal complaints are: a) it's a done thing, it happens, there's not much point to complaining about it anymore, because obviously it won't change anything, b) the complaints are not going to be occurring in the Holiday thread because the people who avoid it aren't there to complain, and c) the people who dislike the Holiday forum are disproportionately D&D folks, who you are probably less familiar with, being from SE.
And c) derives from the fact that the Holiday forum is basically just SE, and a lot of people don't want that. Not because they don't like the people, but because if you're in D&D because you prefer more structured discussion that adheres closer to stated topics, and more long-form treatment of issues, you're going to be less happy in a place that abandons that in favor of a looser and more chat-oriented posting style.
But this does tie into why I am very much opposed to just lumping everything together and disallowing multiple threads on the same topic. Because while there are some discussions where the SE and D&D styles don't differ too much (basically, anything that is inherently more chatty), there are many where there is a fairly pronounced difference in style, and if you put a bunch of people chatting in a loose and off-topic manner with a bunch of people trying to have a more structured conversation, what you end up with is a bunch of people chatting in a loose and off-topic manner.
I don't think there's a grand conspiracy to kill D&D, and I don't think anyone (or at least not an appreciable number of people) is maliciously trying to edge out anyone else. But I do think that some of the ideas here to merge the forums will result, intentionally or not, with a forum that is basically just all SE. Just because of how the different styles will react to being squooshed together.
And the Holiday forum is the best indicator of this - everything gets lumped together, everything gets basically turned into SE, and a lot of D&Ders check out for that time because it's not what they want out of the forums.
I just want to stress the bolded, because it's at the root of the concern for many posters. If we're building a new community meant to be as inclusive as possible, then we should be building a community where everyone will feel safe and able to communicate in their preferred way.
I fully support a reorganization based around broad subject matter categorization with the goal of improving our ability to communicate. And I fully stand against a reorganization if the goal is to fix the schism, because the schism isn't caused by the current layout of the forums. The layouts correlate to the schism, because of how rules and moderation were built around the forum structure. But the schism has been driven by both the differences in sub-forums rules and enforcement of said rules. If the rules are consistent and consistently applied, the schism will be solved, because either behavior will improve or the problematic posters will end up banned.
Change is scary, and change is happening. So let's work together to make changes that makes our community better for everyone.
The irony of this to me is, that this place (as in the current state of the penny arcade forums) is functionally already like the bolded but in reverse. I don't feel safe hanging out outside SE because like, the holiday forums proved, some people just can't keep their debate boners down.
I literally left the forums for a year and a half because of the tone of DnD, and I'm not super interested in a Coin Return that is mostly DnD folks and a good chunk of SE folks getting chased off. I only came back to the forums because I heard it was getting shut down, and I used to love this place. And kinda? Regret coming back at least a few times now
Kinda sounds like there’s two different cultures that don’t necessarily mesh despite all the assertions that this time they totally will
The "culture divide" in this thread seems to currently be between those who want to keep as much of the existing PA community together while creating something better than what we currently have, and those who are perhaps willing to accept that there are any serious issues with the existing community structure that need addressing but are unwilling to accept any proposed changes to address those issues unless those proposed changes perfectly align with what they personally approve of and they cannot think of a single hypothetical issue where they could take issue with it.
To the second camp, I legitimately suggest they put their heads together and spin up their own alternative forum transition project, because the people who have been participating in the current forum transitions have been having a lot of constructive conversations about finding solutions that, rather than are perfectly pleasing to everyone, are compromises that are mostly pleasing (or at least not unpleasant) to most.
I don't know what such an alternative forum project would look like, because I am invested in the transition project already currently in progress, but I would wish the best to everyone who feels an alternative project, rather than Coin Return, would be a preferable space to move onto post-PA.
I would rather two (or more) smaller but healthy splinter communities continue into the future than having only one community that has a significant population unhappy with the way the community is structured. Because that isn't going to be a healthy community.
I don't want "a community" that's actually several discreet communities that are hostile to each other.
^^^ posts like that are why it seems like structure changes are the default party of the TT. I know that's been recanted by the Team, but this doesn't help
But I am part of the group who thinks we can build something better and don't have to hold onto the old structure which helped cause some of the very issues people are concerned about.
If you think it seems like structure changes are the default, it's because people have made a lot of good cases for change, not so much for keeping things the same.
But I am part of the group who thinks we can build something better and don't have to hold onto the old structure which helped cause some of the very issues people are concerned about.
If you think it seems like structure changes are the default, it's because people have made a lot of good cases for change, not so much for keeping things the same.
You spoke for them, going so far as to say that folks who disagree should just break off and make their own transition.
I disagree with about everything else you've said from the characterization of the different groups to the content of the thread, but whatever. Not rehashing that again since clearly we're just reading different realities of this thread.
I suggested doing a separate transition because I think it would be more constructive for folks to do than continuing to nay-say everything the TT is doing without any sign of being willing to accept compromise.
I apologize for not making it clear in my previous post, but I am far from perfectly pleased with everything the TT has done. But I can at least understand, acknowledge, and accept that those decisions I have issues with were made after much consideration and discussion, and my suggestions were at least listened to, not dismissed out of hand.
Telling people to shut up and get out, go do it yourself doesn’t really seem like a great way to engage the community we’re trying to save
Also seems to directly violate item 8 of our new values:
8. We aim to listen to feedback from our community and adjust course as necessary, making this forum a constantly evolving work of community collaboration.
I haven't seen an insufficient holiday cheer infraction since Tube left, personally, and couldn't find any in a quick search of the old holiday forums
Doesn't really change the fact that it wasn't clear of this was a thing people could express dislike of, where would be appropriate to do it, and the concern of folks wanting the mods to have a break even if they disliked the holiday forums.
I dunno. Like, this is a weird thing to push back on when you've got folks here telling you what they thought. "Well you shouldn't have thought that way!" Ok sure? But some of us did still.
Sure, I know now people thought that it still wasn't allowed. I also know that there were people that disliked the holiday forums, plenty of folks were vocal about that.
But I am pushing back on statements like this, which are categorically false:
But it's always been against the rules to complain about it so people mostly grumble in PMs or Discords or whatever.
It was previously against the rules, yes, and some people may have believed it was still against the rules. But I want to correct the record that it was not against the rules this year, doesn't seem to have been against the rules for a few years prior, and therefore was not "always against the rules."
I don't think there is a significant number of people who fear they'll get infracted if they mention in the Holiday forum that they don't like the Holiday forum. Maybe there's a few, but probably only a few.
The reason you're not hearing a lot of vocal complaints are: a) it's a done thing, it happens, there's not much point to complaining about it anymore, because obviously it won't change anything, b) the complaints are not going to be occurring in the Holiday thread because the people who avoid it aren't there to complain, and c) the people who dislike the Holiday forum are disproportionately D&D folks, who you are probably less familiar with, being from SE.
And c) derives from the fact that the Holiday forum is basically just SE, and a lot of people don't want that. Not because they don't like the people, but because if you're in D&D because you prefer more structured discussion that adheres closer to stated topics, and more long-form treatment of issues, you're going to be less happy in a place that abandons that in favor of a looser and more chat-oriented posting style.
But this does tie into why I am very much opposed to just lumping everything together and disallowing multiple threads on the same topic. Because while there are some discussions where the SE and D&D styles don't differ too much (basically, anything that is inherently more chatty), there are many where there is a fairly pronounced difference in style, and if you put a bunch of people chatting in a loose and off-topic manner with a bunch of people trying to have a more structured conversation, what you end up with is a bunch of people chatting in a loose and off-topic manner.
I don't think there's a grand conspiracy to kill D&D, and I don't think anyone (or at least not an appreciable number of people) is maliciously trying to edge out anyone else. But I do think that some of the ideas here to merge the forums will result, intentionally or not, with a forum that is basically just all SE. Just because of how the different styles will react to being squooshed together.
And the Holiday forum is the best indicator of this - everything gets lumped together, everything gets basically turned into SE, and a lot of D&Ders check out for that time because it's not what they want out of the forums.
I just want to stress the bolded, because it's at the root of the concern for many posters. If we're building a new community meant to be as inclusive as possible, then we should be building a community where everyone will feel safe and able to communicate in their preferred way.
I fully support a reorganization based around broad subject matter categorization with the goal of improving our ability to communicate. And I fully stand against a reorganization if the goal is to fix the schism, because the schism isn't caused by the current layout of the forums. The layouts correlate to the schism, because of how rules and moderation were built around the forum structure. But the schism has been driven by both the differences in sub-forums rules and enforcement of said rules. If the rules are consistent and consistently applied, the schism will be solved, because either behavior will improve or the problematic posters will end up banned.
Change is scary, and change is happening. So let's work together to make changes that makes our community better for everyone.
The irony of this to me is, that this place (as in the current state of the penny arcade forums) is functionally already like the bolded but in reverse. I don't feel safe hanging out outside SE because like, the holiday forums proved, some people just can't keep their debate boners down.
I literally left the forums for a year and a half because of the tone of DnD, and I'm not super interested in a Coin Return that is mostly DnD folks and a good chunk of SE folks getting chased off. I only came back to the forums because I heard it was getting shut down, and I used to love this place. And kinda? Regret coming back at least a few times now
Kinda sounds like there’s two different cultures that don’t necessarily mesh despite all the assertions that this time they totally will
The "culture divide" in this thread seems to currently be between those who want to keep as much of the existing PA community together while creating something better than what we currently have, and those who are perhaps willing to accept that there are any serious issues with the existing community structure that need addressing but are unwilling to accept any proposed changes to address those issues unless those proposed changes perfectly align with what they personally approve of and they cannot think of a single hypothetical issue where they could take issue with it.
To the second camp, I legitimately suggest they put their heads together and spin up their own alternative forum transition project, because the people who have been participating in the current forum transitions have been having a lot of constructive conversations about finding solutions that, rather than are perfectly pleasing to everyone, are compromises that are mostly pleasing (or at least not unpleasant) to most.
I don't know what such an alternative forum project would look like, because I am invested in the transition project already currently in progress, but I would wish the best to everyone who feels an alternative project, rather than Coin Return, would be a preferable space to move onto post-PA.
I would rather two (or more) smaller but healthy splinter communities continue into the future than having only one community that has a significant population unhappy with the way the community is structured. Because that isn't going to be a healthy community.
I don't want "a community" that's actually several discreet communities that are hostile to each other.
It's funny that D&D is portrayed as the group that weaponizes politeness, as this is one of the nicest ways I've ever been told to fuck off and been made unwelcome.
Telling people to shut up and get out, go do it yourself doesn’t really seem like a great way to engage the community we’re trying to save
Also seems to directly violate item 8 of our new values:
8. We aim to listen to feedback from our community and adjust course as necessary, making this forum a constantly evolving work of community collaboration.
The key phrase there is "community collaboration," and I don't think everyone here is actually interested in collaborating.
You don't get community collaboration by having multiple walled gardens, which is how people feel about D&D and SE++
EDIT: To that end, I have not made a post myself suggesting how the new forums should be structured because multiple people have made suggestions that I think are worth considering, and I'm still thinking them through. But I reject the attitude of those saying we don't have to change things and also we can't change things because the "forum culture" is actually several intractable cultures that cannot coexist.
I suggested doing a separate transition because I think it would be more constructive for folks to do than continuing to nay-say everything the TT is doing without any sign of being willing to accept compromise.
I apologize for not making it clear in my previous post, but I am far from perfectly pleased with everything the TT has done. But I can at least understand, acknowledge, and accept that those decisions I have issues with were made after much consideration and discussion, and my suggestions were at least listened to, not dismissed out of hand.
Again, your assumption here is that people are going against the TT decision to change the forum structure.
They've explicitly said that's not the case, because posts like yours make it seem otherwise.
Okay I just need to step in here and ask a LOT of folks to cool the fuck off. There's been like a dozen reports in the past hour or so in this thread alone and reading through the past few pages make it very clear that there's become a lot of arguing in bad faith, attacking users rather than their arguments, and people trying to dictate what conversations should or should not be about here.
Please start treating each other with more respect, and stop trying to shut down certain conversations just because you disagree with them. I'm about to go to bed and if I check this thread over breakfast and see that folks haven't been able to take a deep breath and start being kinder to each other, I'm going to be very disappointed and make it well known to anyone breaking the CoC and rules.
I am awake and I am really fucking disappointed. Expect points, warnings and probably some thread kicks soon. In the meantime I suggest everyone who has been even slightly heated here goes and takes a break from even looking at this thread.
Alright, I'm not too good with this moderation stuff, but could we please drop...whatever is going on here? It seems to be a bunch of people who are all argueing that DarkPrimus is not speaking for the Transition Team, and that's good, because they're not.
I also don't really like the "Go make your own forum" and that's not the position of the TT team at all.
Could a grown-up translate this into real moderation?
edit: Too late, a grown-up had arrived while I was typing this
I'll repeat, if you think it seems like structure changes are the default, it's because people have made a lot of good cases for change, and there haven't been as much for keeping things the same way.
I don't want to say with certainty that no positive case has been made for keeping things as they are, but I also don't consider "well these different cliques are just too different" to be a positive case. It reads as insisting nothing can be done about it.
EDIT: Post was being made before mods stepped in. Apologies.
This thread is not in any condition right now to be productive at all, and I've been informed by a TT member that a poll will be going up around the end of this week regarding forum structure. I think we can all take a break from this for a couple of days to collect our thoughts and maybe cool off and reflect on how humans should treat each other.
I've now gone through all the reports for this thread that hadn't already been handled by other moderators. I'm now giving it all a read myself, however.
I've read through the past 10 pages of this thread, as well as every report made, several times now over the course of my day. That's been between IRL work and suchlike, hence why it has taken a while.
I've given out a good few infractions, but I'm aware that some folks don't think enough have been given out, or that certain people didn't get one they deserved for certain posts. Any post that was dealt with via a warning from another mod was already covered, and many of the people I infracted had been misbehaving for multiple posts in the thread, and I rolled them all into the one post's infraction.
EDIT: also I want to be clear that for many of these infractions, and for the entire thread itself, I've discussed them with multiple other moderators, including ones with jurisdiction over subforums besides SE++ (the one I am a mod for).
I also want to note that there are several users who toed very close to the line repeatedly throughout the past 24 hours of this thread, both before and after my earlier mod decree. Just because they didn't get infracted doesn't mean they won't be in the future, or are being protected from consequences. The reality is that if I were to infract those in this thread who had just generally been unpleasant or difficult I'd be doing that for nearly everyone who has been posting here. This thread went off the rails to a huge degree, and a lot of it was for reasons or over discussions that were cyclic, pointless, or based on premises that weren't helpful for the discussion topic of this thread.
I understand that everyone cares a great deal about the PA forums, and the friends and community that they have come to cherish here, and that they are concerned about what might happen to those on Coin Return. These are, at their core, emotional reasons, and that's totally okay and valid! The rub is that when heated emotions begin to influence how people are responding to each other, all we end up with is page after page of folks talking at each other, rather than with each other, and targeting personal issues with others, rather than the content of their posts. That just doesn't help anyone. Not the TT, not your fellow users, and not the mods.
The TT will be putting up a poll regarding forum structure later this week, and I encourage everyone to take the time to think about where they stand on the different aspects of forum structure, and what they may or may not be willing to see compromise on. But most of all I encourage everyone to go into any discussion of the poll and the proposals it offers with kindness and patience, such that we don't have a repeat of what this thread turned into.
Chairman Meow on
+1
minor incidentpublicly subsidized!privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
A quick update: As with most things, the process of designing a survey on this topic is taking a bit longer than anticipated because we want to get it right. We've all been a bit tied up with real life obligations, and have also been working hard on trying to ensure we do this in the best way possible to truly represent what the community wants and needs. Please bear with us a little longer and we'll have an update soon.
Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
Posts
each current subforum is it's own wing of the larger house/office.
People have chosen which wing they wish to live/work in over time. Some people move from wing to wing, or hot desk from office to office.
For a while, i floated between wings, hanging with different groups of friends/colleagues etc. Until one wing became decidedly too toxic for me and I chose to leave that behind for myself and my mental wellbeing.
that was a choice that I made for myself.
Holiday forums is one great big office/block party where everyone is forced to exist in the same space as each other for a period of time. However, it's decidedly full of discomfort because you may not know, like, trust the people that you are suddenly being forced to interact with. Or there's a person who you purposefully avoid for your own safety, but who is now next to you in line for food and drink and trying to talk to you as if they have no idea how miserable they make you feel about yourself and everything else.
Some people get 'driven off' from areas of the forum, sure fine. Shouldn't happen but it does. But sometimes other choose to leave for their own health & safety. And going from a house with separate wings, or an office with different areas and smooshing it all together into one big open plan zone is just.... it's hard to take. If the overall feeling of this new and improved proposal is going to feel the same as the Holiday Forums does.... well you're going to lose more people. Especially people that don't like Open Plan Offices.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
U R NOT e
This is the softest shit I've seen in months
"D&D are hoity-toity fart sniffers, SE is a bunch of friends shooting the shit" and you think he means the fart-sniffers are better than you? Really?
No but stepping into this role has felt a little like ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL
The "culture divide" in this thread seems to currently be between those who want to keep as much of the existing PA community together while creating something better than what we currently have, and those who are perhaps willing to accept that there are any serious issues with the existing community structure that need addressing but are unwilling to accept any proposed changes to address those issues unless those proposed changes perfectly align with what they personally approve of and they cannot think of a single hypothetical issue where they could take issue with it.
To the second camp, I legitimately suggest they put their heads together and spin up their own alternative forum transition project, because the people who have been participating in the current forum transitions have been having a lot of constructive conversations about finding solutions that, rather than are perfectly pleasing to everyone, are compromises that are mostly pleasing (or at least not unpleasant) to most.
I don't know what such an alternative forum project would look like, because I am invested in the transition project already currently in progress, but I would wish the best to everyone who feels an alternative project, rather than Coin Return, would be a preferable space to move onto post-PA.
I would rather two (or more) smaller but healthy splinter communities continue into the future than having only one community that has a significant population unhappy with the way the community is structured. Because that isn't going to be a healthy community.
I don't want "a community" that's actually several discreet communities that are hostile to each other.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Edit: totp of course. It's hard to highlight and quote on mobile. DP's post https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/46924069/#Comment_46924069
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
But I am part of the group who thinks we can build something better and don't have to hold onto the old structure which helped cause some of the very issues people are concerned about.
If you think it seems like structure changes are the default, it's because people have made a lot of good cases for change, not so much for keeping things the same.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
You spoke for them, going so far as to say that folks who disagree should just break off and make their own transition.
I disagree with about everything else you've said from the characterization of the different groups to the content of the thread, but whatever. Not rehashing that again since clearly we're just reading different realities of this thread.
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
I apologize for not making it clear in my previous post, but I am far from perfectly pleased with everything the TT has done. But I can at least understand, acknowledge, and accept that those decisions I have issues with were made after much consideration and discussion, and my suggestions were at least listened to, not dismissed out of hand.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Also seems to directly violate item 8 of our new values:
8. We aim to listen to feedback from our community and adjust course as necessary, making this forum a constantly evolving work of community collaboration.
It's funny that D&D is portrayed as the group that weaponizes politeness, as this is one of the nicest ways I've ever been told to fuck off and been made unwelcome.
The key phrase there is "community collaboration," and I don't think everyone here is actually interested in collaborating.
You don't get community collaboration by having multiple walled gardens, which is how people feel about D&D and SE++
EDIT: To that end, I have not made a post myself suggesting how the new forums should be structured because multiple people have made suggestions that I think are worth considering, and I'm still thinking them through. But I reject the attitude of those saying we don't have to change things and also we can't change things because the "forum culture" is actually several intractable cultures that cannot coexist.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Again, your assumption here is that people are going against the TT decision to change the forum structure.
They've explicitly said that's not the case, because posts like yours make it seem otherwise.
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
I am awake and I am really fucking disappointed. Expect points, warnings and probably some thread kicks soon. In the meantime I suggest everyone who has been even slightly heated here goes and takes a break from even looking at this thread.
Alright, I'm not too good with this moderation stuff, but could we please drop...whatever is going on here? It seems to be a bunch of people who are all argueing that DarkPrimus is not speaking for the Transition Team, and that's good, because they're not.
I also don't really like the "Go make your own forum" and that's not the position of the TT team at all.
Could a grown-up translate this into real moderation?
edit: Too late, a grown-up had arrived while I was typing this
I don't want to say with certainty that no positive case has been made for keeping things as they are, but I also don't consider "well these different cliques are just too different" to be a positive case. It reads as insisting nothing can be done about it.
EDIT: Post was being made before mods stepped in. Apologies.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I've read through the past 10 pages of this thread, as well as every report made, several times now over the course of my day. That's been between IRL work and suchlike, hence why it has taken a while.
I've given out a good few infractions, but I'm aware that some folks don't think enough have been given out, or that certain people didn't get one they deserved for certain posts. Any post that was dealt with via a warning from another mod was already covered, and many of the people I infracted had been misbehaving for multiple posts in the thread, and I rolled them all into the one post's infraction.
EDIT: also I want to be clear that for many of these infractions, and for the entire thread itself, I've discussed them with multiple other moderators, including ones with jurisdiction over subforums besides SE++ (the one I am a mod for).
I also want to note that there are several users who toed very close to the line repeatedly throughout the past 24 hours of this thread, both before and after my earlier mod decree. Just because they didn't get infracted doesn't mean they won't be in the future, or are being protected from consequences. The reality is that if I were to infract those in this thread who had just generally been unpleasant or difficult I'd be doing that for nearly everyone who has been posting here. This thread went off the rails to a huge degree, and a lot of it was for reasons or over discussions that were cyclic, pointless, or based on premises that weren't helpful for the discussion topic of this thread.
I understand that everyone cares a great deal about the PA forums, and the friends and community that they have come to cherish here, and that they are concerned about what might happen to those on Coin Return. These are, at their core, emotional reasons, and that's totally okay and valid! The rub is that when heated emotions begin to influence how people are responding to each other, all we end up with is page after page of folks talking at each other, rather than with each other, and targeting personal issues with others, rather than the content of their posts. That just doesn't help anyone. Not the TT, not your fellow users, and not the mods.
The TT will be putting up a poll regarding forum structure later this week, and I encourage everyone to take the time to think about where they stand on the different aspects of forum structure, and what they may or may not be willing to see compromise on. But most of all I encourage everyone to go into any discussion of the poll and the proposals it offers with kindness and patience, such that we don't have a repeat of what this thread turned into.