Man, this is like if a witch curses your soul or something. If you don't believe in curses and magic then why do you even care. Your just being a fag with a stick up your ass.
Yeah says the guy that grew up a witch and is casting all the curses!
My Lebron James voodoo doll has been less than successful.
here's what mormons can do for me: have enough self restraint and respect for fellow human beings to deem MY choices and MY decisions as my final word.
Here are a couple of ways you can look at it:
You could say that, hey, this dude is dead anyway. The ceremony has no actual effect on the dude, and is mostly to make the mormons themselves feel better.
You could also say that it might be equivalent to mormon missionaries, but in the afterlife. The "baptism" is essentially the mormon spirits coming up to the dead dude's spirit-house and knocking on his spirit-door. The spirit-dude can then say "not interested," and the mormon spirits will go on their merry spirit-way.
You are bringing your own definitions of what baptism is into a ritual which a bunch of mormons who might know better than you are telling you is not the same thing as a baptism as you understand it.
I said absolutely nothing about my interpretation of baptism. It's irrelevant. What the baptism causes is also irrelevant.
If it's all irrelevant then I don't understand what the problem is?
do you not see how the first explanation you posited is kind of disrespectful towards the dead
From certain points of view, maybe.
And I do get why some people are offended by the post-mortem baptism. But this thread has mostly devolved into people brow-beating a couple of mormons. They think it's a good-ish thing to do, and really we don't have the moral authority to tell them they're wrong. Also yelling at them won't get the mormon church to change things.
Neither will being complicit with it.
I don't really know why I'm white-knighting on this particular point. I don't find it particularly offensive, but like I said I understand why people do.
Mostly I just jumped to the last page after getting to the point of the thread where GRMike jumped in with, "Hey you Mormons check out all this ridiculous shit I found on some website that tells me what mormons believe! I don't care that you say you interpret it differently, this is what you guys believe and u r a cult."
I saw the topic had moved to the post-mortem baptisms and decided to get my rhetoric on.
I just don't think it's my responsibility to advise the mormon church on how they should listen to the many, many people who have already complained directly to them about the ritual.
Also it seems a pretty quibbling thing to be accusing people of being complicit in.
Man, this is like if a witch curses your soul or something. If you don't believe in curses and magic then why do you even care. Your just being a fag with a stick up your ass.
Yeah says the guy that grew up a witch and is casting all the curses!
I'm starting to lose faith. My Lebron James voodoo doll has been less than successful.
It does when they play the Lakers apparently. Ugh...
Whoa hey man don't force a guy to read now
that is just intolerant
Wow, I'm intolerant x 2 now.
My persona or likeness should not be allowed to be used by other people in religious ceremony without my direct consent.
Oh ho ho. Complex and important legal issues! You have a right to make sure people don't practice their religion by using my name a time or two.
Quick, get the ACLU on the line! They love this shit. Let's make this a national issue that the politicians will never touch. In 70 years, you'll get what you want. But by then you'll be dead and bitter, wondering if they ever used your name when they almost definitely will not have.
Man, this is like if a witch curses your soul or something. If you don't believe in curses and magic then why do you even care. Your just being a fag with a stick up your ass.
Yeah says the guy that grew up a witch and is casting all the curses!
I'm starting to lose faith. My Lebron James voodoo doll has been less than successful.
It does when they play the Lakers apparently. Ugh...
Or the Bulls. The fuckin Bulls!
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
MrMonroe didn't read that Mormon leaders agreed not to baptize Holocaust victims, I see.
Whoa hey man don't force a guy to read now
that is just intolerant
/golf clap
Yeah, I heard. And I applaud them for agreeing to not insult one particular group of people. Any instance of it is an insult to the dead, and the survivors of the people in question being unaware of it isn't an excuse. At that point you're just talking smack about people behind their backs.
And @Quoth: I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
right on
i am pleased that this conversation has come to a satisfactory conclusion
I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
right on
i am pleased that this conversation has come to a satisfactory conclusion
now we wait for someone who hasn't read the entire thread to come in and just poop on everyone's face.
MrMonroe didn't read that Mormon leaders agreed not to baptize Holocaust victims, I see.
Whoa hey man don't force a guy to read now
that is just intolerant
/golf clap
Yeah, I heard. And I applaud them for agreeing to not insult one particular group of people. Any instance of it is an insult to the dead, and the survivors of the people in question being unaware of it isn't an excuse. At that point you're just talking smack about people behind their backs.
And @Quoth: I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
I would argue that it's not actually an insult unless the group in question actually feels insulted. Which quite a few of them have, and been vocal about it.
You have a good point that about tolerance being different from acceptance, but by yelling at a couple mormons on a message board you start to seem like a shitbag too.
Not actually calling you a shitbag, just saying.
Edit: Monroe and Run^3 have made some very good points and I just want to say I don't disagree with them.
MrMonroe didn't read that Mormon leaders agreed not to baptize Holocaust victims, I see.
Whoa hey man don't force a guy to read now
that is just intolerant
/golf clap
Yeah, I heard. And I applaud them for agreeing to not insult one particular group of people. Any instance of it is an insult to the dead, and the survivors of the people in question being unaware of it isn't an excuse. At that point you're just talking smack about people behind their backs.
And @Quoth: I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
I would argue that it's not actually an insult unless the group in question actually feels insulted. Which quite a few of them have, and been vocal about it.
You have a good point that about tolerance being different from acceptance, but by yelling at a couple mormons on a message board you start to seem like a shitbag too.
Not actually calling you a shitbag, just saying.
Edit: Monroe and Run^3 have made some very good points and I just want to say I don't disagree with them.
MrMonroe didn't read that Mormon leaders agreed not to baptize Holocaust victims, I see.
Whoa hey man don't force a guy to read now
that is just intolerant
/golf clap
Yeah, I heard. And I applaud them for agreeing to not insult one particular group of people. Any instance of it is an insult to the dead, and the survivors of the people in question being unaware of it isn't an excuse. At that point you're just talking smack about people behind their backs.
And @Quoth: I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
Would you be offended if it were, I don't know, pick a loved one,
Okay you have a friend who is mormon, let's assume recently converted because I don't think that with your posts you're going to be making friends with any current mormons in good standing, and your loved one dies and they come up to you and say "Hey Monroe, I was really sorry to hear about your loved one, I always liked and respected him. I got my church together and we had a baptism ceremony for him as a show of this admiration and respect."
Now you can get all pissy with this friend of yours, but they would explain that this is just what they do at his church when someone passes that a member cares about a lot like your friend did for your loved one. It's just how they reconcile their grief for that death.
You can't possibly still be thinking that they should not be allowed to do that under law, can you? Nobody is being hurt or disturbed, and if you don't believe what they believe then you wouldn't think it would do any harm or good to the deceased's spirit, right?
Now that's assuming a lot, but no more than when you assume that they do it to try and overthrow the heathen beliefs they felt your loved one had.
MrMonroe didn't read that Mormon leaders agreed not to baptize Holocaust victims, I see.
Whoa hey man don't force a guy to read now
that is just intolerant
/golf clap
Yeah, I heard. And I applaud them for agreeing to not insult one particular group of people. Any instance of it is an insult to the dead, and the survivors of the people in question being unaware of it isn't an excuse. At that point you're just talking smack about people behind their backs.
And @Quoth: I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
Would you be offended if it were, I don't know, pick a loved one,
Okay you have a friend who is mormon, let's assume recently converted because I don't think that with your posts you're going to be making friends with any current mormons in good standing, and your loved one dies and they come up to you and say "Hey Monroe, I was really sorry to hear about your loved one, I always liked and respected him. I got my church together and we had a baptism ceremony for him as a show of this admiration and respect."
Now you can get all pissy with this friend of yours, but they would explain that this is just what they do at his church when someone passes that a member cares about a lot like your friend did for your loved one. It's just how they reconcile their grief for that death.
You can't possibly still be thinking that they should not be allowed to do that under law, can you? Nobody is being hurt or disturbed, and if you don't believe what they believe then you wouldn't think it would do any harm or good to the deceased's spirit, right?
Now that's assuming a lot, but no more than when you assume that they do it to try and overthrow the heathen beliefs they felt your loved one had.
my religion honors the dead by gutting them, storing all of their organs in jars, and then wrapping up the dead in toilet paper
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MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
Yeah, I can be a real jerk sometimes. I ain't frontin.
But I can't say I agree that people have to actually feel insulted for it to count as an insult.
Like, if I sent you a pm saying that Phonehand is a fat, smelly turdburgler that would be an insult even if he never finds out.
Now, if I say that to his face and he's all "yeah, yeah, I know. I totally am a fat, smelly turdburgler and I'm damn proud of it," then it ceases to be an insult.
Maybe that's what you meant to begin with, I'm not sure.
I think the real insult is assuming that an act is done out of some negative feeling.
Like the mormons try and exalt a person that has died, maybe even in spite of the fact that they weren't a part of the mormon church or faith, and someone else assumes that they do it to belittle that person's beliefs.
Yeah, I can be a real jerk sometimes. I ain't frontin.
But I can't say I agree that people have to actually feel insulted for it to count as an insult.
Like, if I sent you a pm saying that Phonehand is a fat, smelly turdburgler that would be an insult even if he never finds out.
Now, if I say that to his face and he's all "yeah, yeah, I know. I totally am a fat, smelly turdburgler and I'm damn proud of it," then it ceases to be an insult.
Maybe that's what you meant to begin with, I'm not sure.
MrMonroe didn't read that Mormon leaders agreed not to baptize Holocaust victims, I see.
Whoa hey man don't force a guy to read now
that is just intolerant
/golf clap
Yeah, I heard. And I applaud them for agreeing to not insult one particular group of people. Any instance of it is an insult to the dead, and the survivors of the people in question being unaware of it isn't an excuse. At that point you're just talking smack about people behind their backs.
And @Quoth: I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
Would you be offended if it were, I don't know, pick a loved one,
Okay you have a friend who is mormon, let's assume recently converted because I don't think that with your posts you're going to be making friends with any current mormons in good standing, and your loved one dies and they come up to you and say "Hey Monroe, I was really sorry to hear about your loved one, I always liked and respected him. I got my church together and we had a baptism ceremony for him as a show of this admiration and respect."
Now you can get all pissy with this friend of yours, but they would explain that this is just what they do at his church when someone passes that a member cares about a lot like your friend did for your loved one. It's just how they reconcile their grief for that death.
You can't possibly still be thinking that they should not be allowed to do that under law, can you? Nobody is being hurt or disturbed, and if you don't believe what they believe then you wouldn't think it would do any harm or good to the deceased's spirit, right?
Now that's assuming a lot, but no more than when you assume that they do it to try and overthrow the heathen beliefs they felt your loved one had.
Hold it. They're allowed to perform a baptism now just because somebody has died? Without this dead person's permission? That's what this 'ceremony' is.
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Yeah, I can be a real jerk sometimes. I ain't frontin.
But I can't say I agree that people have to actually feel insulted for it to count as an insult.
Like, if I sent you a pm saying that Phonehand is a fat, smelly turdburgler that would be an insult even if he never finds out.
Now, if I say that to his face and he's all "yeah, yeah, I know. I totally am a fat, smelly turdburgler and I'm damn proud of it," then it ceases to be an insult.
Maybe that's what you meant to begin with, I'm not sure.
MrMonroe didn't read that Mormon leaders agreed not to baptize Holocaust victims, I see.
Whoa hey man don't force a guy to read now
that is just intolerant
/golf clap
Yeah, I heard. And I applaud them for agreeing to not insult one particular group of people. Any instance of it is an insult to the dead, and the survivors of the people in question being unaware of it isn't an excuse. At that point you're just talking smack about people behind their backs.
And @Quoth: I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
Would you be offended if it were, I don't know, pick a loved one,
Okay you have a friend who is mormon, let's assume recently converted because I don't think that with your posts you're going to be making friends with any current mormons in good standing, and your loved one dies and they come up to you and say "Hey Monroe, I was really sorry to hear about your loved one, I always liked and respected him. I got my church together and we had a baptism ceremony for him as a show of this admiration and respect."
Now you can get all pissy with this friend of yours, but they would explain that this is just what they do at his church when someone passes that a member cares about a lot like your friend did for your loved one. It's just how they reconcile their grief for that death.
You can't possibly still be thinking that they should not be allowed to do that under law, can you? Nobody is being hurt or disturbed, and if you don't believe what they believe then you wouldn't think it would do any harm or good to the deceased's spirit, right?
Now that's assuming a lot, but no more than when you assume that they do it to try and overthrow the heathen beliefs they felt your loved one had.
Hold it. They're allowed to perform a baptism now just because somebody has died? Without this dead person's permission? That's what this 'ceremony' is.
Well in this case 'baptism' refers to, as I understand it, a prayer or series of prayers and ceremony done in that person's honour or name, not to their body, so yeah, they can do it for Nelson Mandela if they want to. They don't have to fly to Africa.
Seems to me that the goal of this sort of 'baptism' isn't admiration and respect for the dead, even if the people doing it do feel that way about the dead person - it's giving them one last chance to Do The Right Thing™ and become a Mormon.
Are you asking if we would act differently in a real life situation than on the internet? Hmm, I wonder. But the sentiments, whether shared or not, would remain the same.
And speaking of sentiments, if it's such a private thing between you, God, and that person's soul, why would you bring it up to anyone else? Seems like you'd be looking for approval for some reason. Now, I don't want to project any intentions upon your proposed actions, so why don't you correct me here.
MrMonroe didn't read that Mormon leaders agreed not to baptize Holocaust victims, I see.
Whoa hey man don't force a guy to read now
that is just intolerant
/golf clap
Yeah, I heard. And I applaud them for agreeing to not insult one particular group of people. Any instance of it is an insult to the dead, and the survivors of the people in question being unaware of it isn't an excuse. At that point you're just talking smack about people behind their backs.
And @Quoth: I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
Would you be offended if it were, I don't know, pick a loved one,
Okay you have a friend who is mormon, let's assume recently converted because I don't think that with your posts you're going to be making friends with any current mormons in good standing, and your loved one dies and they come up to you and say "Hey Monroe, I was really sorry to hear about your loved one, I always liked and respected him. I got my church together and we had a baptism ceremony for him as a show of this admiration and respect."
Now you can get all pissy with this friend of yours, but they would explain that this is just what they do at his church when someone passes that a member cares about a lot like your friend did for your loved one. It's just how they reconcile their grief for that death.
You can't possibly still be thinking that they should not be allowed to do that under law, can you? Nobody is being hurt or disturbed, and if you don't believe what they believe then you wouldn't think it would do any harm or good to the deceased's spirit, right?
Now that's assuming a lot, but no more than when you assume that they do it to try and overthrow the heathen beliefs they felt your loved one had.
Hold it. They're allowed to perform a baptism now just because somebody has died? Without this dead person's permission? That's what this 'ceremony' is.
Well in this case 'baptism' refers to, as I understand it, a prayer or series of prayers and ceremony done in that person's honour or name, not to their body, so yeah, they can do it for Nelson Mandela if they want to. They don't have to fly to Africa.
Doesn't matter if the body is present or not. There is no honoring here, and it's disrespectful to people that died under a different belief system.
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Seems to me that the goal of this sort of 'baptism' isn't admiration and respect for the dead, even if the people doing it do feel that way about the dead person - it's giving them one last chance to Do The Right Thingâ„¢ and become a Mormon.
Are you asking if we would act differently in a real life situation than on the internet? Hmm, I wonder. But the sentiments, whether shared or not, would remain the same.
And speaking of sentiments, if it's such a private thing between you, God, and that person's soul, why would you bring it up to anyone else? Seems like you'd be looking for approval for some reason. Now, I don't want to project any intentions upon your proposed actions, so why don't you correct me here.
Because you were talking about the mutual loved one, and it seemed an appropriate thing to bring up in conversation?
Posts
modern Judaism is strictly non-missionary
so my question to you is, at what point do religious views become so unacceptable as to warrant alteration or abandonment
at what point is tolerance for a view no longer appropriate
Make it a single malt and I am with you.
But it should.
Why?
Make It Suntory Time
Whoa hey man don't force a guy to read now
that is just intolerant
you ever gonna come back and hang out with me
i am so alone
I don't really know why I'm white-knighting on this particular point. I don't find it particularly offensive, but like I said I understand why people do.
Mostly I just jumped to the last page after getting to the point of the thread where GRMike jumped in with, "Hey you Mormons check out all this ridiculous shit I found on some website that tells me what mormons believe! I don't care that you say you interpret it differently, this is what you guys believe and u r a cult."
I saw the topic had moved to the post-mortem baptisms and decided to get my rhetoric on.
I just don't think it's my responsibility to advise the mormon church on how they should listen to the many, many people who have already complained directly to them about the ritual.
Also it seems a pretty quibbling thing to be accusing people of being complicit in.
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Freedom of religion should also mean freedom from religion.
Faith is a private matter. My persona or likeness should not be allowed to be used by other people in religious ceremony without my direct consent.
It does when they play the Lakers apparently. Ugh...
Wow, I'm intolerant x 2 now.
Oh ho ho. Complex and important legal issues! You have a right to make sure people don't practice their religion by using my name a time or two.
Quick, get the ACLU on the line! They love this shit. Let's make this a national issue that the politicians will never touch. In 70 years, you'll get what you want. But by then you'll be dead and bitter, wondering if they ever used your name when they almost definitely will not have.
if all it is is a prayer that some dead guy gets one last shot at heaven then realize that 'baptism' doesn't convey that notion in the slightest
Or the Bulls. The fuckin Bulls!
this, i can dig
/golf clap
Yeah, I heard. And I applaud them for agreeing to not insult one particular group of people. Any instance of it is an insult to the dead, and the survivors of the people in question being unaware of it isn't an excuse. At that point you're just talking smack about people behind their backs.
And @Quoth: I am not compelled to be accepting any religious practice which insults me or my beliefs. I must tolerate it, (like I said before) and I don't have any legal recourse to stop them or anything, but if I'm going to tolerate them insulting me, then they can tolerate me informing them that they are being callous shitbags for continuing to do it anyway.
right on
i am pleased that this conversation has come to a satisfactory conclusion
Ok, yeah.
If this is insulting then bring on the ad hominems.
now we wait for someone who hasn't read the entire thread to come in and just poop on everyone's face.
I would argue that it's not actually an insult unless the group in question actually feels insulted. Which quite a few of them have, and been vocal about it.
You have a good point that about tolerance being different from acceptance, but by yelling at a couple mormons on a message board you start to seem like a shitbag too.
Not actually calling you a shitbag, just saying.
Edit: Monroe and Run^3 have made some very good points and I just want to say I don't disagree with them.
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can i jerk it 24/7?
can i play violent video games while making homoerotic gestures towards friends?
I think you know the answer to that.
Edit: Dammit, Potato, your avatar is making me break #2.
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
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Why not? Just let him have it.
is it a yes?
it better be a yes
Why not? Everyone else does.
Okay you have a friend who is mormon, let's assume recently converted because I don't think that with your posts you're going to be making friends with any current mormons in good standing, and your loved one dies and they come up to you and say "Hey Monroe, I was really sorry to hear about your loved one, I always liked and respected him. I got my church together and we had a baptism ceremony for him as a show of this admiration and respect."
Now you can get all pissy with this friend of yours, but they would explain that this is just what they do at his church when someone passes that a member cares about a lot like your friend did for your loved one. It's just how they reconcile their grief for that death.
You can't possibly still be thinking that they should not be allowed to do that under law, can you? Nobody is being hurt or disturbed, and if you don't believe what they believe then you wouldn't think it would do any harm or good to the deceased's spirit, right?
Now that's assuming a lot, but no more than when you assume that they do it to try and overthrow the heathen beliefs they felt your loved one had.
This.
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But I can't say I agree that people have to actually feel insulted for it to count as an insult.
Like, if I sent you a pm saying that Phonehand is a fat, smelly turdburgler that would be an insult even if he never finds out.
Now, if I say that to his face and he's all "yeah, yeah, I know. I totally am a fat, smelly turdburgler and I'm damn proud of it," then it ceases to be an insult.
Maybe that's what you meant to begin with, I'm not sure.
Like the mormons try and exalt a person that has died, maybe even in spite of the fact that they weren't a part of the mormon church or faith, and someone else assumes that they do it to belittle that person's beliefs.
Yeah, that is what I intended.
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Hold it. They're allowed to perform a baptism now just because somebody has died? Without this dead person's permission? That's what this 'ceremony' is.
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Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
Erroneous because I have better hair than you
Are you asking if we would act differently in a real life situation than on the internet? Hmm, I wonder. But the sentiments, whether shared or not, would remain the same.
And speaking of sentiments, if it's such a private thing between you, God, and that person's soul, why would you bring it up to anyone else? Seems like you'd be looking for approval for some reason. Now, I don't want to project any intentions upon your proposed actions, so why don't you correct me here.
Doesn't matter if the body is present or not. There is no honoring here, and it's disrespectful to people that died under a different belief system.
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Because you were talking about the mutual loved one, and it seemed an appropriate thing to bring up in conversation?
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