I liked it just barely enough I'd watch the second episode if I didn't know it was Whedon. Since it is Whedon, I'll probably give it more than that.
This is basically where I'm at. We don't even know the main character yet and already we've watched her go through some seriously brutal treatment...being sold out as a prostitute for a weekend (probably legally rape since she didn't understand what was going on), and then being given memories of childhood rape, in addition to the generally fucked-up-ness of the whole Dollhouse situation. It's too much for an introduction.
The only thing that indicated that this was a Whedon show was Amy Acker's presence. It just felt like a generic action TV show. Only one marginally likable character (for me, her handler), and not a single joke. I know, "grow as a writer, don't repeat yourself, blah blah blah", but I liked Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Dr. Horrible. I didn't care for this episode.
I figure I'll keep on though, if I can tolerate 8 crappy seasons of Smallville out of my love for comics, I can give Whedon at least a few more episodes.
I'm not sure continuing to make sci-fi/fantasy TV, but no longer making it endearingly funny is "growing" as a writer. It's not like the episode was in any way well-written, and the premise isn't particularly interesting. Whedon's strength has always been his goofy dialogue that doesn't sound at all like real people talking...abandoning that isn't going to make his shows more successful.
Granted, I still can't figure out why he'd even do another show with Fox.
There was an interview (I can't remember where it was linked, maybe this thread?) that made it sound like this series is all one big favor for Dusku, which somehow ties it to Fox.
It was more that he stumbled upon the idea while chatting with her and thinking of something they could do together.
And I would disagree about Whedon's strength being "goofy dialogue". The funny dialogue certainly helps, and is one of his strengths, but most of his shows are good for being interesting, well characterized and being, in some way, ABOUT something.
I mean in the sense that it's something he does well that I haven't seen on any other shows which aren't explicitly comedies. Plenty of other serial sci-fi shows have interesting plots, characters, etc...but few of them have entertaining dialogue, which I would say is largely unique to Whedon's work.
I liked it just barely enough I'd watch the second episode if I didn't know it was Whedon. Since it is Whedon, I'll probably give it more than that.
This is basically where I'm at. We don't even know the main character yet and already we've watched her go through some seriously brutal treatment...being sold out as a prostitute for a weekend (probably legally rape since she didn't understand what was going on), and then being given memories of childhood rape, in addition to the generally fucked-up-ness of the whole Dollhouse situation. It's too much for an introduction.
The only thing that indicated that this was a Whedon show was Amy Acker's presence. It just felt like a generic action TV show. Only one marginally likable character (for me, her handler), and not a single joke. I know, "grow as a writer, don't repeat yourself, blah blah blah", but I liked Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Dr. Horrible. I didn't care for this episode.
I figure I'll keep on though, if I can tolerate 8 crappy seasons of Smallville out of my love for comics, I can give Whedon at least a few more episodes.
I'm not sure continuing to make sci-fi/fantasy TV, but no longer making it endearingly funny is "growing" as a writer. It's not like the episode was in any way well-written, and the premise isn't particularly interesting. Whedon's strength has always been his goofy dialogue that doesn't sound at all like real people talking...abandoning that isn't going to make his shows more successful.
Granted, I still can't figure out why he'd even do another show with Fox.
There was an interview (I can't remember where it was linked, maybe this thread?) that made it sound like this series is all one big favor for Dusku, which somehow ties it to Fox.
It was more that he stumbled upon the idea while chatting with her and thinking of something they could do together.
And I would disagree about Whedon's strength being "goofy dialogue". The funny dialogue certainly helps, and is one of his strengths, but most of his shows are good for being interesting, well characterized and being, in some way, ABOUT something.
I mean in the sense that it's something he does well that I haven't seen on any other shows which aren't explicitly comedies. Plenty of other serial sci-fi shows have interesting plots, characters, etc...but few of them have entertaining dialogue, which I would say is largely unique to Whedon's work.
I wouldn't go with "plenty" personally. And Whedon's shows are, generally, much more cohesive. Virtually every season of Buffy or Angel is about something. There's an over-arching theme that's built up and payed off.
I'll probably watch this show while it's on, but won't get too attached since I don't see it surviving. It doesn't strike me as being that snappy like Whedon's other shows, plus Fox put it on Friday night, which is usually a death sentence. I thought the pilot was okay, but so far I don't think I'll feel that disappointed if it doesn't survive, unless they manage to make things more interesting in the next few episodes.
I'll probably watch this show if it continues to be shown on hulu. What struck me as odd in the first episode was how they fabricated mystery by not using proper nouns. It felt very clunky.
I understand that to create a mysterious setting one needs to leave things out. But the way questions were proposed in this first episode was offputting.
For example, the conversation about "actions have consequences"? Ok, great, Echo did something and now she's in the dollhouse. So now I, the viewer, am supposed to wonder what that "something" was.
And then we have "guy who is trying to find the Dollhouse". Ok, so I'm supposed to care about him and his motivations and whether or not he succeeds.
It was just an episode full of that. Unlike, say, Buffy or Firefly where the episodes were a part of an overall story.
I understand the Dollhouse had to be episodic in nature. But, still, there's an artful way of handling "you want to know why Echo is in the dollhouse".
I understand what he's saying--it's true that we didn't really see much about Helo's (okay, okay, Ballard's) character to make him interesting/sympathetic before Whedon expected us to care what he was doing. But I'm assuming that will come.
FOX demanded an action-y pilot. The original one was going to be very character background-heavy, but it was scrapped both because of FOX and because Joss was worried it wouldn't be a good way to start off the show.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
FOX demanded an action-y pilot. The original one was going to be very character background-heavy, but it was scrapped both because of FOX and because Joss was worried it wouldn't be a good way to start off the show.
Isn't that why Fox showed The Train Job first, instead of Serenity, Part 1?
I understand what he's saying--it's true that we didn't really see much about Helo's (okay, okay, Ballard's) character to make him interesting/sympathetic before Whedon expected us to care what he was doing. But I'm assuming that will come.
FOX demanded an action-y pilot. The original one was going to be very character background-heavy, but it was scrapped both because of FOX and because Joss was worried it wouldn't be a good way to start off the show.
That's why I'm giving the show a few episodes to get those kinks worked out.
The premise is keen. It's just a matter of how they use it.
I understand what he's saying--it's true that we didn't really see much about Helo's (okay, okay, Ballard's) character to make him interesting/sympathetic before Whedon expected us to care what he was doing. But I'm assuming that will come.
FOX demanded an action-y pilot. The original one was going to be very character background-heavy, but it was scrapped both because of FOX and because Joss was worried it wouldn't be a good way to start off the show.
I don't know, I think we learned enough about Helo from the interview/boxing match scene (which I really like by the way) The man's got a little bit of crazy obssessive in him. I like him.
Just watched the first episode. Was rather bleh on it. Probably give it a few more episodes to see if it gets better or not. Hard to judge a show by its premier sometimes.
I liked the first episode a lot. It wasn't perfect, but it has a lot of potential and I'm excited to see it grow. Hence, I watched it on Hulu many times and bought the episode off of iTunes. God damn it, Fox, you will let this show live!
Also, if this doesn't work out for Joss, I think he just needs to make a new show that is Eliza Dushku dancing around in that white dress for an hour every week.
I am going to give this show a few weeks to grow on me. However. did anyone else get a major Gunslinger Girl vibe off of it? I mean, Echo and Langdon practically are Henrietta(minus the age difference) and Jose. Of course, then comes the inevietable debate over which organization is more amoral(Dollhouse vs SWA).
DragonPup on
"I was there, I was there, the day Horus slew the Emperor." -Cpt Garviel Loken
I am going to give this show a few weeks to grow on me. However. did anyone else get a major Gunslinger Girl vibe off of it? I mean, Echo and Langdon practically are Henrietta(minus the age difference) and Jose. Of course, then comes the inevietable debate over which organization is more amoral(Dollhouse vs SWA).
The premise is anime-esque, and I can see the similarity in the Echo/Langdon and Henrietta/Jose relationships. I think it will evolve in a different direction, though. SWA wins the amorality contest hands down.
I thought the begining of the episode was pretty bad. The introduction of Echo and the head of Dollhouse, just came off as poorly written and performed, and was really clunky exposition.
I also felt like we got too much of what's going to be the major story arc of Echo having flashbacks and Langdon having moral qualms about Dollhouse are coming too quickly too much. Given the premise of the story I know what the storyline is giong to be. I would prefer to see the characters doing their job well for a while before they start to question what they are doing.
I hate the introduction of the detective being intercut with the kick boxing scene. It was so familiar and painful to watch.
I'm interested to see where this goes, and I hope it gets the chance to completely play out the story of Echo regaining her memories.
I wasn't completely sold on the show but I want to like it.
Which reminds me...I wasn't sold on Firefly after watching the pilot episode. But i fell in love with it 3-4 episodes in. Here's hoping Josh can work his magic on Dollhouse too.
I thought the human trafficking part was handled quite well. It presented bold-faced the realities of what was going on. And I think we should encourage that. No lying or sugar-coating, what was happening was exactly what we think.
And even as boldly as they painted this reality, they still made it minorly tolerable. The people there are still being taken care of quite well, and they're only there for 5 years, so it's not a show about some underage whorehouse.
While I appreciate the non-sugarcoating, I thought much of this was muddled.
Once we get that Echo was a tart-for-hire during the intro scene, we realize this is a private organization. When you first hear the interview between Echo and the head of Dollhouse, you suffer through some what seems to be some terrible dialog about the bad thing Echo did and how she can make amends.
Look again, after Ballard's intro gets fleshed out. He's come to believe that Dollhouse is linked to human trafficking. right? Well, if that is the case then Echo and Dollhouse Boss's conversation makes much more sense. Echo is half-unresponsive, doesn't seem to get exactly what's going on, and the Boss's questions are all leaning, nudging, and manipulative. It becomes a bizarre form of Patty Hearst--kidnap a girl, tell her enough times that she's done something wrong that deserves punishment, and eventually she'll be the one asking to be punished and thanking them for doing so!
That said, I don't think that gets communicated very effectively during the episode, and I do hope that gets fleshed out over the season.
Also:
I would have preferred Dollhouse to be overt, publicly lauded, utterly benevolent and purely voluntary. I think that would have provided more interesting dramatic and philosophical tensions as Echo inevitably becomes more and more unraveled.
ResIpsaLoquitur on
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I've seen a lot of professional reviews in the B- range, the only really bad one I saw was the Washington Post one linked earlier in the thread.
I don't know about random internet idiots though, I don't really care what YouTube commenter #3165 has to say.
Random internet idiots are the guys who actually matter, not 'professional' reviewers. Professional reviewers don't make up a large demographic.
I tend to try and believe that most people are not similar to random internet idiots, because if that were actually true, it would be far too depressing.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
I'm not sure about Angel, but Buffy tends to also be easily dated by whoever is playing at the Bronze. I've only started watching the show in the last year or so, and it's been weird seeing all these bands that I liked as a teenager show up.
I'd never heard of any of the bands that appear on Buffy. Before or since.
Though it's funny, talking to my Sister or my GF, they say the clothes date the show HUGELY. This always makes me laugh, since I can't tell at all.
Really? None of the bands? I'm assuming you're forgetting about a couple of the "bigger" ones (like Michelle Branch), but damn I recognized a ton when I went back and watched it. Though yeah, a lot were one-semi-hit-wonders.
And I'm a complete fashion idiot who can hardly dress himself, but I can still tell that a lot of the clothes just scream '90s. Though really the hair is more dated than the clothes.
Anyway, Dollhouse. Throw me on the "unimpressed by the episode, think the premise is interesting, will continue to watch" bandwagon. There just wasn't enough treatment given to any characters or aspects of the central plot for me to care yet. Hopefully there will be eventually, when they stop trying to hook whatever target demographic the "ZOMG ACTION" approach actually appeals to.
Its the lack of cellphones that date the show for me. So many situations could have been avoided if they had them.
It was amusing because early in Angel they made a big deal about getting him a cell phone, and he was constantly forgetting about it and bitching about it being "new-fangled".
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Its the lack of cellphones that date the show for me. So many situations could have been avoided if they had them.
Do they have pagers, though?
I seem to remember pretty much every high-schooler, particularly girls, having at least a pager (if not a cellphone) by the late '90s. That might have just been where I lived, though.
One thing that really impressed me about this episode is that, yes, it was an actiony episode, but they didn't go down the obvious path with it. The obvious path would be that Echo gets the imprint of some Buffy/Xena/River/Whatever character and she runs in and kicks everyone's ass. They bypassed that completely by giving her the imprint of a frail negotiator.
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I mean in the sense that it's something he does well that I haven't seen on any other shows which aren't explicitly comedies. Plenty of other serial sci-fi shows have interesting plots, characters, etc...but few of them have entertaining dialogue, which I would say is largely unique to Whedon's work.
I wouldn't go with "plenty" personally. And Whedon's shows are, generally, much more cohesive. Virtually every season of Buffy or Angel is about something. There's an over-arching theme that's built up and payed off.
I understand that to create a mysterious setting one needs to leave things out. But the way questions were proposed in this first episode was offputting.
For example, the conversation about "actions have consequences"? Ok, great, Echo did something and now she's in the dollhouse. So now I, the viewer, am supposed to wonder what that "something" was.
And then we have "guy who is trying to find the Dollhouse". Ok, so I'm supposed to care about him and his motivations and whether or not he succeeds.
It was just an episode full of that. Unlike, say, Buffy or Firefly where the episodes were a part of an overall story.
I understand the Dollhouse had to be episodic in nature. But, still, there's an artful way of handling "you want to know why Echo is in the dollhouse".
Maybe things will get better.
It's true; television shows do depend on you caring about the characters and their motivations and whether or not they succeed.
FOX demanded an action-y pilot. The original one was going to be very character background-heavy, but it was scrapped both because of FOX and because Joss was worried it wouldn't be a good way to start off the show.
Isn't that why Fox showed The Train Job first, instead of Serenity, Part 1?
That's why I'm giving the show a few episodes to get those kinks worked out.
The premise is keen. It's just a matter of how they use it.
I don't know, I think we learned enough about Helo from the interview/boxing match scene (which I really like by the way) The man's got a little bit of crazy obssessive in him. I like him.
The shoe pissing could have been an unrelated and unforeseen effect.
Personally, I think his primary infatuation is putting guns up to people's heads.
Also, if this doesn't work out for Joss, I think he just needs to make a new show that is Eliza Dushku dancing around in that white dress for an hour every week.
I with you on this.
But I was really embarrassed by some of the Acting - particularly the "Why did they send you?" scene.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
The premise is anime-esque, and I can see the similarity in the Echo/Langdon and Henrietta/Jose relationships. I think it will evolve in a different direction, though. SWA wins the amorality contest hands down.
I also felt like we got too much of what's going to be the major story arc of Echo having flashbacks and Langdon having moral qualms about Dollhouse are coming too quickly too much. Given the premise of the story I know what the storyline is giong to be. I would prefer to see the characters doing their job well for a while before they start to question what they are doing.
I hate the introduction of the detective being intercut with the kick boxing scene. It was so familiar and painful to watch.
I'm interested to see where this goes, and I hope it gets the chance to completely play out the story of Echo regaining her memories.
Which reminds me...I wasn't sold on Firefly after watching the pilot episode. But i fell in love with it 3-4 episodes in. Here's hoping Josh can work his magic on Dollhouse too.
Catch me on twitter.
Yeah, I doubt anyone who didn't already like Whedon will tune in again.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I don't know about random internet idiots though, I don't really care what YouTube commenter #3165 has to say.
While I appreciate the non-sugarcoating, I thought much of this was muddled.
Look again, after Ballard's intro gets fleshed out. He's come to believe that Dollhouse is linked to human trafficking. right? Well, if that is the case then Echo and Dollhouse Boss's conversation makes much more sense. Echo is half-unresponsive, doesn't seem to get exactly what's going on, and the Boss's questions are all leaning, nudging, and manipulative. It becomes a bizarre form of Patty Hearst--kidnap a girl, tell her enough times that she's done something wrong that deserves punishment, and eventually she'll be the one asking to be punished and thanking them for doing so!
That said, I don't think that gets communicated very effectively during the episode, and I do hope that gets fleshed out over the season.
Also:
Random internet idiots are the guys who actually matter, not 'professional' reviewers. Professional reviewers don't make up a large demographic.
I tend to try and believe that most people are not similar to random internet idiots, because if that were actually true, it would be far too depressing.
Really? None of the bands? I'm assuming you're forgetting about a couple of the "bigger" ones (like Michelle Branch), but damn I recognized a ton when I went back and watched it. Though yeah, a lot were one-semi-hit-wonders.
And I'm a complete fashion idiot who can hardly dress himself, but I can still tell that a lot of the clothes just scream '90s. Though really the hair is more dated than the clothes.
Anyway, Dollhouse. Throw me on the "unimpressed by the episode, think the premise is interesting, will continue to watch" bandwagon. There just wasn't enough treatment given to any characters or aspects of the central plot for me to care yet. Hopefully there will be eventually, when they stop trying to hook whatever target demographic the "ZOMG ACTION" approach actually appeals to.
It was amusing because early in Angel they made a big deal about getting him a cell phone, and he was constantly forgetting about it and bitching about it being "new-fangled".
Do they have pagers, though?
I seem to remember pretty much every high-schooler, particularly girls, having at least a pager (if not a cellphone) by the late '90s. That might have just been where I lived, though.