I already explained the former part; the latter part is outside the context of the movie, although it is a fair point.
Your explanation was (1) The Borg want to assimilate current-day Earth technology and (2) it's a plot device. On (1), no. The Federation has no technology the Borg are not already far ahead of, and even if they did, the Borg already downloaded the entire Enterprise-D's database so they know it already. The Borg want to assimilate the Federation because, to quote "Best of Both Worlds", they want to raise the standard of living of all species to Borg level. Earth Technology doesn't enter into it. For (2), yes, I agree, it was a blatant, stupid plot device that served no rational in-story point and was only useful to get the characters from point A to point B. Which is part of the problem, not the explanation.
As for the second part, well, how convenient. The blatant, massive problem with the plot that reduces it from "bad" to "laughable nonsensical" is "outside the context of the movie".
Um, what? As I remember it, they gave us some exposition on the Phoenix (not a full explanation, but enough to hint that the full explanation is coming) as soon as the Borg sphere went back in time. You know, the scene where Cochrane is drunk and Lilly is fed up with his bullshit and then the Borg start bombing the whole facility? Yeah, that. Also, Cochrane's first warp flight had already been an established part of the Star Trek mythos.
The fact Cochrane developed warp travel was established as part of the Star Trek mythos. The importance of his first flight towards establishing first contact with the Vulcans was not. That was made up for this movie. Without that new piece of evidence, why should I care if Cochrane's first warp flight was today or next month? Doesn't make a bit of difference.
Then you're not arguing with me that they didn't give an actual explanation of the Phoenix until later in the movie?
She was more important thematically than she was to the plot, honestly. I wasn't the biggest fan of her either, but I wouldn't call it a crippling flaw.
When your main villain serves no point in the plot, I call it a crippling flaw.
Did you watch the scene I linked above? She was critical to Picard's character arc, which is the best part of the movie.
She was part of that scene, sure. But her role in that scene could just as easily been played by Riker (Picard's first officer), Troi (ship councellor) or Crusher (Picard's oldest friend and confident). For the rest of the movie she was nothing but dead weight. So, another character who, much like the Borg Queen, could have been completely eliminated without changing the film.
And the rest of the movie is Starfleet shooing at the Borg in corridors, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in space, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in holodecks, Starfleet shooting at the Borg next to the deflector dish, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in engineering... see a pattern there? What's worse is all along, we get bad catchphrases like "assimilate this!"
All of which comprised what I felt was a well-handled and tightly paced action/thriller.
Which is cool in a Zombie flick, and I'd be the first to get excited for it. But it's not what Star Trek is about.
First Contact was a bad movie and a bad Star Trek story. Anyone who liked it should be ashamed of themselves. End of discussion.
No, you should feel ashamed for totally missing the fuckin' point.[/quote]No, you should be ashamed for trying to defend that piece of crap that was First Contact.
Richy on
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
speaking of the economy, I think that in the trek-verse Energy is the still the main scarce resource, and that seems to be the only thing that people still "pay" for. Remember Sisko saying that he used a month's worth of transporter credits in the first week he was at the academy so he could transport home for supper every day. We also have several examples on earth of normal restaurants as we would see today, where real food is cooked.
It was Harry Kim, and it wasn't an energy ration deal, it was that cadets were only allowed to use it so much while at the academy.
No, it was Sisko. He missed his father's cooking so much he used a month's worth of transporter rations to make it home for dinner every day. It's one of my favorite lines of his.
Actually we're both right, Harry Kim missed his parents and Sisko missed his dad's cooking, both within the context of being at the academy
So Harry Kim was so lame they couldn't even think of a more personal story for him than to steal one of Sisko's? Or were the writers that bad? I will accept 'yes' as a blanket answer for both.
There were three good Star Trek movies: Wrath of Khan, Voyage Home, and Undiscovered Country. Rank them in any order you want, they remain the only three good movies out of the 10 that were made. The other seven all sucked. They sucked for different reasons, to different degrees, and with different casts, but they sucked nontheless.
Wait.
You didn't know what the Phoenix was? Zefram Cochrane? The first warp test?
I knew who Cochrane was, and that he discovered Warp Drive on Earth.
I did not know what the Phoenix was, or how Cochrane's first warp flight related to first contact with the Vulcans. Because, you know, they made it up for that movie. And didn't actually explain it until halfway in that movie. So for half of the movie we're told to care about something we never heard of before and given no reason.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
I don't get why people rate Search for Spock so poorly. I mean, it's kind of flat and feels more like a two-hour episode than a movie, but there's nothing offensively wrong with it.
It's about a dead body somehow being transformed back into a baby and rapidly growing yet unlike the planet it's on the body stops growing at just the right age and doesn't suffer rapid death like the entire planet that caused the whole thing did.
Meanwhile the body is given the memories of it's former self through some voodoo bullshit which calls into question why don't Vulcans do that all the time just grow a clone and give it the original's memory.
Basically it's a giant RESET button that negates the entire lesson Kirk learned in Wrath of Khan.
Kagera on
My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
There were three good Star Trek movies: Wrath of Khan, Voyage Home, and Undiscovered Country. Rank them in any order you want, they remain the only three good movies out of the 10 that were made. The other seven all sucked. They sucked for different reasons, to different degrees, and with different casts, but they sucked nontheless.
Wait.
You didn't know what the Phoenix was? Zefram Cochrane? The first warp test?
I knew who Cochrane was, and that he discovered Warp Drive on Earth.
I did not know what the Phoenix was, or how Cochrane's first warp flight related to first contact with the Vulcans. Because, you know, they made it up for that movie. And didn't actually explain it until halfway in that movie. So for half of the movie we're told to care about something we never heard of before and given no reason.
I'm pretty sure that the First Contact idea came way before the movie, though I guess it would be difficult to find out.
In more words: We have a time-travel plot that makes no sense. Why fly to Earth then travel back instead of doing the opposite? If the Borg have time-travel technology, why not try again, and again? Why stop at one botched time-travel attempt at rewriting history?
The Borg sphere was a "lifeboat". The attack on Earth by the cube was an assimilation attempt, when it failed, the queen's "lifeboat" was jettisoned, and was sent back in time with a secondary objective of securing the planet in the past.
We have a plot centered on the flight of the Phoenix. We have never heard of the Phoenix before, nor do we have any idea beforehand of its impact on humanity. So why are we supposed to care? And more importantly, why don't they tell us about it until like midway through the movie? The Enterprise arrives in the past, realises what's going on, and everyone on the brige just stands there looking shocked going "My God, the Phoenix!" and we the viewers are left wondering "WTF is the Phoenix?". Then they beam down and touch the missile the Phoenix is in and orgasm, and we the viewers are still left wondering "WTF is the Phoenix?". And on and on it goes like that, until finally someone fills in Cochrane (and we the viewers) on just what the hell is going on here.
Star Trek lore nerds will tell you about Cochrane and his importance in Earth's space travel from a TOS episode where Cochrane and his acheivements are introduced.
Then there's the Borg Queen. She completely breaks the Borg concept in her own right; instead of being an unstoppable army with a hive mind whose workings are completely alien to us, they're reduced to the tin soldiers of a sexually-frustrated girl looking for a good humping. She's introduced as the worst retcon ever: "Oh, BTW, the Queen was on that cube that attacked Earth, did we forget to mention that before? Oops, our bad." And for all her faults, what does she bring to the movie? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I dare anyone to find a way the plot of the movie would be different if the Borg Queen had never existed.
Yeah, the Queen was a bad retcon. However- she wasn't just "after a good humping". She was using Data's emotions to gain access to the Enterprise, in order to facilitate the assimilation of earth. She mainly exists to be a counterpoint to Data, who is still learning to control his new emotions. And, she wasn't "there" at Wolf 359, but Picard mentions it because she was in his head.
Then there's Picard walking around the ship with a clueless 21st-century sidekick. When Kirk picked up a local girl in Star Trek IV, she held her own, and made a significant contribution to the movie. The girl following Picard around is worthless.
She's there as an outside observer- and to act as Picard's concience while he's on his revenge trip. If she wasn't there to talk him down, he'd have sacrificed everyone in an attempt to destroy the Borg.
And the rest of the movie is Starfleet shooing at the Borg in corridors, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in space, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in holodecks, Starfleet shooting at the Borg next to the deflector dish, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in engineering... see a pattern there? What's worse is all along, we get bad catchphrases like "assimilate this!"
Action scenes for the sake of action scenes. And horrible one-liners don't really have a place in Star Trek.
First Contact was a bad movie and a bad Star Trek story. Anyone who liked it should be ashamed of themselves. End of discussion.
I already explained the former part; the latter part is outside the context of the movie, although it is a fair point.
Your explanation was (1) The Borg want to assimilate current-day Earth technology and (2) it's a plot device. On (1), no. The Federation has no technology the Borg are not already far ahead of, and even if they did, the Borg already downloaded the entire Enterprise-D's database so they know it already. The Borg want to assimilate the Federation because, to quote "Best of Both Worlds", they want to raise the standard of living of all species to Borg level. Earth Technology doesn't enter into it. For (2), yes, I agree, it was a blatant, stupid plot device that served no rational in-story point and was only useful to get the characters from point A to point B. Which is part of the problem, not the explanation.
Where are you getting the idea that the Borg only wanted to bring the standard of living up to the Borg level? That the Borg were seeking perfection by assimilating other species was a major point in the movie, in fact. And do you seriously think that they could gain all of the Federation's technology simply through the contents of the Enterprise-D's databases? Even if this was true, there would still be years of advancement between when that happened and the events of First Contact--and they're not just seeking technological advances, but people and culture and ideas and preexisting technology, all of which were much more developed in the 24th century.
As for the second part, well, how convenient. The blatant, massive problem with the plot that reduces it from "bad" to "laughable nonsensical" is "outside the context of the movie".
As I said before, it wasn't really what the movie was about; it was a contrivance used to get to what the movie was about. But yes, I will yield you this point.
Um, what? As I remember it, they gave us some exposition on the Phoenix (not a full explanation, but enough to hint that the full explanation is coming) as soon as the Borg sphere went back in time. You know, the scene where Cochrane is drunk and Lilly is fed up with his bullshit and then the Borg start bombing the whole facility? Yeah, that. Also, Cochrane's first warp flight had already been an established part of the Star Trek mythos.
The fact Cochrane developed warp travel was established as part of the Star Trek mythos. The importance of his first flight towards establishing first contact with the Vulcans was not. That was made up for this movie. Without that new piece of evidence, why should I care if Cochrane's first warp flight was today or next month? Doesn't make a bit of difference.
Then you're not arguing with me that they didn't give an actual explanation of the Phoenix until later in the movie?
It wasn't that late in the movie, as I remember it. Maybe toward the end of the first act, at the latest. Furthermore, do you understand how writing works? You can't always drop trou and explain everything right away. It would fuck up the pace and land you directly in exposition-city. When you can't explain everything right now, you implicitly promise to explain it by hinting that an explanation is forthcoming, which is exactly what the writers did.
She was more important thematically than she was to the plot, honestly. I wasn't the biggest fan of her either, but I wouldn't call it a crippling flaw.
When your main villain serves no point in the plot, I call it a crippling flaw.
The movie wasn't really about Picard versus the Borg Queen, although it included Picard versus the Borg Queen. It was about Picard versus Picard's lust for revenge, and his past with the Borg. She was used as a thematic device to tie into that storyline, but it's a little disingenuous to call her the main villain as if the story centers on Picard's confrontation with her.
Did you watch the scene I linked above? She was critical to Picard's character arc, which is the best part of the movie.
She was part of that scene, sure. But her role in that scene could just as easily been played by Riker (Picard's first officer), Troi (ship councellor) or Crusher (Picard's oldest friend and confident). For the rest of the movie she was nothing but dead weight. So, another character who, much like the Borg Queen, could have been completely eliminated without changing the film.
They needed somebody like her to basically be able to give Picard a slap to the face and wake him the fuck up. They made that point pretty clear by the amount of contempt with which he treated Worf's opinion in the scene immediately before that one. He's a man who is used to that crew following his orders, believing that he knows best and trusting that he won't lead them astray. Remember ...All Good Things? How much they trusted him when he was doing things that seemed insane and suicidal? It was an established element of his character and of theirs. Lilly was able to come in as an outside observer, take in the situation, and say, "Jean Luc, you're pretty fucked up, man." It was the only thing that could get through to him.
And the rest of the movie is Starfleet shooing at the Borg in corridors, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in space, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in holodecks, Starfleet shooting at the Borg next to the deflector dish, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in engineering... see a pattern there? What's worse is all along, we get bad catchphrases like "assimilate this!"
All of which comprised what I felt was a well-handled and tightly paced action/thriller.
Which is cool in a Zombie flick, and I'd be the first to get excited for it. But it's not what Star Trek is about.
Well, if you want to get into that--Star Trek is about stupid-ass utopian bullshit with no connection to reality. I'd rather have a cool story about a man's struggle against his own desire for revenge coupled with a fun zombie flick than "Gene Roddenberry's vision". To be frank. (DS9 is also the best Trek series, and the one that least fits with what Roddenberry wanted from the franchise.)
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Richy, you kind of come of as an arrogant jerk the way you act offended that your knowledge of trek lore didn't adequately prepare you for knowing the entire plot of the movie before going to see it.
"They didn't establish that the Phoenix Warp Ship was what instigated first contact with the Vulcan's in pre-established Trek lore. So it was something new I found out when I saw the movie. HOW DARE THEY!"
Richy, a lot of your complaints as a trek nerd are understandable from a dramatic perspective; First Contact was intended to be just as much for non-fans as fans, so Lily's character helps draw them into the movie. The Borg Queen puts a face on the borg, and allows for more interaction and actual drama, rather than just nameless drones wandering around shooting. And don't forget, Locutus in the series just as much went against the idea that the borg were all equals and whatever. The slightly dodgy ret-con, action scenes and dubious time travel contrivance can I think be overlooked because of the "rule of cool".
Basically, it's an effective movie but it seems like you wanted the screen equivalent of a trek novel that's meticulously accurate but lacking in an entertaining plot.
I LOVED First Contact. I would rent that movie again and again. I was obsessed with it. I loved the ship, the action, the plot, the characters. It was great, when I was twelve. Now I look at it as a very shaky film made during that tipping point when Star Trek started to go bad and just got worse and worse.
It managed to blind side us quite well. It had a brand new super hardcore ship, new uniforms an action heavy plot and horror styled villains, but under the new shiny coat it just doesn't have much there. Most of its problems have already been raised. The worst in my opinion being the queen and an out of character Picard.
Orem, you obviously don't like Star Trek very much. You seem to want something else.
Richy, a lot of your complaints as a trek nerd are understandable from a dramatic perspective; First Contact was intended to be just as much for non-fans as fans, so Lily's character helps draw them into the movie. The Borg Queen puts a face on the borg, and allows for more interaction and actual drama, rather than just nameless drones wandering around shooting. And don't forget, Locutus in the series just as much went against the idea that the borg were all equals and whatever. The slightly dodgy ret-con, action scenes and dubious time travel contrivance can I think be overlooked because of the "rule of cool".
Basically, it's an effective movie but it seems like you wanted the screen equivalent of a trek novel that's meticulously accurate but lacking in an entertaining plot.
These are weak defenses. If the pheonix and cochrin are supposed to be known beforehand by the audience, then we shouldn't be introducing a new character to make it more palatable to non trek fans.
Having to know about an episode that's not even from the series the movie is based off of to not be confused for half the movie is shitty writing. I'm sorry, I see lots of apologists for the script, but First Contact was very poorly written.
Almost anyone in this thread could write a better script.
The Borg Queen is every bit as retarded as some of the worst moments in Star Trek V. When your main villain and related subplots can be removed from the movie entirely without altering it significantly, that's bad. The borg queen and data sex plots were bad and didn't fit with them trying to have a serious movie. It's just such a ridiculous villain that actually makes the borg less menacing.
Also, yes, there was far too much running and gunning in the movie. The only real internal struggle I felt was with Picard and that's because Patrick Stewart is so awesome and makes good use of what he's given. I don't feel for cochrin or whatserface in the slightest.
The Voyage Home is hands down the best. Yes, it had time travel. But it has funny time travel (especially today looking back), it has nuclear missiles, it has Kirk, Bones and Spock at there best, and it has a new shiny Enterprise at the end.
Also hands down the best Enterprice was NCC-1701A. No over contenders.
I already explained the former part; the latter part is outside the context of the movie, although it is a fair point.
Your explanation was (1) The Borg want to assimilate current-day Earth technology and (2) it's a plot device. On (1), no. The Federation has no technology the Borg are not already far ahead of, and even if they did, the Borg already downloaded the entire Enterprise-D's database so they know it already. The Borg want to assimilate the Federation because, to quote "Best of Both Worlds", they want to raise the standard of living of all species to Borg level. Earth Technology doesn't enter into it. For (2), yes, I agree, it was a blatant, stupid plot device that served no rational in-story point and was only useful to get the characters from point A to point B. Which is part of the problem, not the explanation.
As for the second part, well, how convenient. The blatant, massive problem with the plot that reduces it from "bad" to "laughable nonsensical" is "outside the context of the movie".
Um, what? As I remember it, they gave us some exposition on the Phoenix (not a full explanation, but enough to hint that the full explanation is coming) as soon as the Borg sphere went back in time. You know, the scene where Cochrane is drunk and Lilly is fed up with his bullshit and then the Borg start bombing the whole facility? Yeah, that. Also, Cochrane's first warp flight had already been an established part of the Star Trek mythos.
The fact Cochrane developed warp travel was established as part of the Star Trek mythos. The importance of his first flight towards establishing first contact with the Vulcans was not. That was made up for this movie. Without that new piece of evidence, why should I care if Cochrane's first warp flight was today or next month? Doesn't make a bit of difference.
Then you're not arguing with me that they didn't give an actual explanation of the Phoenix until later in the movie?
She was more important thematically than she was to the plot, honestly. I wasn't the biggest fan of her either, but I wouldn't call it a crippling flaw.
When your main villain serves no point in the plot, I call it a crippling flaw.
Did you watch the scene I linked above? She was critical to Picard's character arc, which is the best part of the movie.
She was part of that scene, sure. But her role in that scene could just as easily been played by Riker (Picard's first officer), Troi (ship councellor) or Crusher (Picard's oldest friend and confident). For the rest of the movie she was nothing but dead weight. So, another character who, much like the Borg Queen, could have been completely eliminated without changing the film.
And the rest of the movie is Starfleet shooing at the Borg in corridors, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in space, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in holodecks, Starfleet shooting at the Borg next to the deflector dish, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in engineering... see a pattern there? What's worse is all along, we get bad catchphrases like "assimilate this!"
All of which comprised what I felt was a well-handled and tightly paced action/thriller.
Which is cool in a Zombie flick, and I'd be the first to get excited for it. But it's not what Star Trek is about.
First Contact was a bad movie and a bad Star Trek story. Anyone who liked it should be ashamed of themselves. End of discussion.
No, you should feel ashamed for totally missing the fuckin' point.
No, you should be ashamed for trying to defend that piece of crap that was First Contact.[/QUOTE]
So, I disagree. I think exactly what the Borg should have been is a sci-fi zombie flick, because that's what the Borg are: sci-fi zombies.
Instead of the bee-lining it to Earth in Best of Both Worlds, the Federation's first post-Picard encounter with the Borg should have been outposts just blinking off the map. When they went, they find the Borg. The Borg don't really bother with them. They sort of limply reach out towards the investigating ships, but don't really pursue them with any vigor.
There should have been a huge arc with the Federation simply trying to keep the spreading Borg infection at bay.
They should have made a reappearance in DS9, but only in the shadows. In the middle of the Dominion War, there should have been indications that the Dominion was suddenly forced to deal with something else in the Gamma quadrant. That something else should have been revealed to be the Borg infection encroaching on Dominion space.
And then Voyager... Voyager should have been shot in to the middle of Borg space. The entire quadrant completely overrun by the Borg.
The Borg were fucking scary. They were shamblers, but they were technologically superior shamblers. The only reason they just didn't completely wipe the floor with us was because their motivations were alien. A large part of Trek encounters with the Borg should have been us utterly failing because we kept treating them like something we've encountered before and something that acts vaguely humanoid.
Where are you getting the idea that the Borg only wanted to bring the standard of living up to the Borg level? That the Borg were seeking perfection by assimilating other species was a major point in the movie, in fact. And do you seriously think that they could gain all of the Federation's technology simply through the contents of the Enterprise-D's databases? Even if this was true, there would still be years of advancement between when that happened and the events of First Contact--and they're not just seeking technological advances, but people and culture and ideas and preexisting technology, all of which were much more developed in the 24th century.
[SIZE=-1]Locutus: "Worf. Klingon species.A warrior race. You too will be assimilated."
Worf: "The Klingon Empire will never yield."
Locutus: "Why do you resist? We only wish to raise quality of life for all species."
Worf: "I like my species the way it is."
Locutus: "A narrow vision. You will become one with the Borg. You will all become one with the Borg. The android, Data. Primitive artificial organism. You will be obsolete in the new order."[/SIZE]
Yes, where did I get that idea about the motivation of the Borg... As for Federation technology, grated maybe they won't get everything from the Enterprise-D's database, and granted even if they did the Federation had years of advances since then, but that still doesn't address my main point, which is that the Borg don't want it in the first place because they are well ahead of the Federation, technologically-wise. If that's not obvious from the fact a single cube can wipe out most of Starfleet, or from the fact they said as much in "Q Who?" when they first encountered the Borg, then the same Locutus quote I posted has him calling Data, the most advance piece of technology in the Federation, "primitive" and "obsolete".
It wasn't that late in the movie, as I remember it. Maybe toward the end of the first act, at the latest. Furthermore, do you understand how writing works? You can't always drop trou and explain everything right away. It would fuck up the pace and land you directly in exposition-city. When you can't explain everything right now, you implicitly promise to explain it by hinting that an explanation is forthcoming, which is exactly what the writers did.
Maybe I should clarify, both for you and other people in the thread who seem to be misunderstanding my objection here. Yes, they can introduce new elements in Star Trek lore, and explain them anytime they want in the movie, and adjust it to fit the pace of the movie. The problem wasn't that. The problem is that the characters on-screen immediately make a big deal of the Phoenix, long before it's explained to the viewer what it is and what's so important about it. The viewer, be it a die-hard Star Trek nerd or someone who's never heard of Star Trek before, has simply no way of knowing what's going on. He has no way to relate to the characters, no way to share their concern or appreciate the urgency of the situation, no way to even know what the hell is going on. That is bad writing, and that is the problem I have with this script.
The movie wasn't really about Picard versus the Borg Queen, although it included Picard versus the Borg Queen. It was about Picard versus Picard's lust for revenge, and his past with the Borg. She was used as a thematic device to tie into that storyline, but it's a little disingenuous to call her the main villain as if the story centers on Picard's confrontation with her.
I would disagree. The climax of the movie is Picard's confrontation with the Borg Queen, and the denouement comes after he defeats her. Granted, Picard vs. revenge occurs as well, but that's resolved, what, around 2/3 of the way in when he yells at Lilly? If that was the main focus of the movie, then it would have been all but resolved at that point - instead we still get most of the Borg Queen subplot to go through. Which means either that the movie was about the Borg Queen, or that it's much, much worse written than I had realised.
And you wouldn't call the Borg Queen the main villain? WTF? The Borg are the villain, and she's the leader of the Borg, and her defeat ends the movie. How is she not the main villain? If not her, then who?
They needed somebody like her to basically be able to give Picard a slap to the face and wake him the fuck up. They made that point pretty clear by the amount of contempt with which he treated Worf's opinion in the scene immediately before that one. He's a man who is used to that crew following his orders, believing that he knows best and trusting that he won't lead them astray. Remember ...All Good Things? How much they trusted him when he was doing things that seemed insane and suicidal? It was an established element of his character and of theirs. Lilly was able to come in as an outside observer, take in the situation, and say, "Jean Luc, you're pretty fucked up, man." It was the only thing that could get through to him.
Alright, I'll grant you that scene. But it still doesn't fit with her character. She was lost and clueless, being led around by Picard like dead weight until that point. Then she stands up to Picard and makes him see the errors of his ways. Then they evacuate the ship and she's never seen again. She should have been better written.
And the rest of the movie is Starfleet shooing at the Borg in corridors, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in space, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in holodecks, Starfleet shooting at the Borg next to the deflector dish, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in engineering... see a pattern there? What's worse is all along, we get bad catchphrases like "assimilate this!"
All of which comprised what I felt was a well-handled and tightly paced action/thriller.
Which is cool in a Zombie flick, and I'd be the first to get excited for it. But it's not what Star Trek is about.
Well, if you want to get into that--Star Trek is about stupid-ass utopian bullshit with no connection to reality. I'd rather have a cool story about a man's struggle against his own desire for revenge coupled with a fun zombie flick than "Gene Roddenberry's vision". To be frank. (DS9 is also the best Trek series, and the one that least fits with what Roddenberry wanted from the franchise.)[/quote]
Alright, look at it this way. Wrath of Khan is often considered the best Star Trek movie, right? And it's also a story about revenge, like you say First Contact was. So what's different about it? It's a Star Trek story. Kirk and his crew cannot be substituted with generic action heroes, Khan's men cannot be substituted with stock villains, Khan cannot be removed from the story without it falling apart (unlike the Borg Queen), and the ships they're fighting on cannot be substituted with the dark corridors of an abandoned shopping mall/military lab/ancient tomb/etc. Wrath of Khan simply cannot work as a non-Star-Trek movie, while First Contact can work (and would probably be better) as a zombie action flick in any other setting. That's what I meant when I said it's not Star Trek.
In more words: We have a time-travel plot that makes no sense. Why fly to Earth then travel back instead of doing the opposite? If the Borg have time-travel technology, why not try again, and again? Why stop at one botched time-travel attempt at rewriting history?
Well, I can't argue with this. I understand everyone has a different tolerance for this sort of thing, but I am willing to cut any writer who touches time-travel some slack because it's impossible to handle intelligently without destroying whatever universe it's introduced to. It's not as though Star Trek IV was any more intelligent about this. They could have just waited for the damn probe to fry Earth and leave, or head to Vulcan or Andoria or wherever and pick up a real starship to do the whole time-warp thing with.
We have a plot centered on the flight of the Phoenix. We have never heard of the Phoenix before, nor do we have any idea beforehand of its impact on humanity. So why are we supposed to care? And more importantly, why don't they tell us about it until like midway through the movie? The Enterprise arrives in the past, realises what's going on, and everyone on the brige just stands there looking shocked going "My God, the Phoenix!" and we the viewers are left wondering "WTF is the Phoenix?". Then they beam down and touch the missile the Phoenix is in and orgasm, and we the viewers are still left wondering "WTF is the Phoenix?". And on and on it goes like that, until finally someone fills in Cochrane (and we the viewers) on just what the hell is going on here.
I don't remember this. Maybe I read some kind of book that mentioned it beforehand, but I never remember feeling confused about the Phoenix or its significance.
Then there's the Borg Queen. She completely breaks the Borg concept in her own right; instead of being an unstoppable army with a hive mind whose workings are completely alien to us, they're reduced to the tin soldiers of a sexually-frustrated girl looking for a good humping. She's introduced as the worst retcon ever: "Oh, BTW, the Queen was on that cube that attacked Earth, did we forget to mention that before? Oops, our bad." And for all her faults, what does she bring to the movie? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I dare anyone to find a way the plot of the movie would be different if the Borg Queen had never existed.
The Borg queen was a mistake, but not as terrible a mistake as you suggest. When I first saw her, I immediately assumed she was Locutus: Attempt #2. That is, that she was a figurehead for the collective (with no more authority than a drone) designed to better serve them in interactions with the primitive authority-driven cultures of the galaxy.
I do agree that the ret-con slipping her into the battle at Wolf 359 was retarded, though.
Then there's Picard walking around the ship with a clueless 21st-century sidekick. When Kirk picked up a local girl in Star Trek IV, she held her own, and made a significant contribution to the movie. The girl following Picard around is worthless.
Uh... Lily was the one who convinced Picard to abandon the ship when the rest of the crew was blinded by their loyalty/respect for him. Her character never bothered me.
And the rest of the movie is Starfleet shooing at the Borg in corridors, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in space, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in holodecks, Starfleet shooting at the Borg next to the deflector dish, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in engineering... see a pattern there? What's worse is all along, we get bad catchphrases like "assimilate this!"
This is pretty much a huge exaggeration. There are a few battle scenes, but they needed to be there to give the "hopeless last stand" impression without which Picard's breakdown is meaningless.
First Contact was a bad movie and a bad Star Trek story. Anyone who liked it should be ashamed of themselves. End of discussion.
I want to believe that you're joking and aren't one of those stereotypical raging internet nerds, but I can't get rid of the lingering doubt. You are joking here, right?
CycloneRanger on
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ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
CycloneRanger, all of your points have all been brought up and countered, countered-countered, countered-countered-countered, and in some cases countered-countered-countered-countered in the thread already.
Zimmy, you wound me
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ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
CycloneRanger, all of your points have all been brought up and countered, countered-countered, countered-countered-countered, and in some cases countered-countered-countered-countered in the thread already.
Zimmy, you wound me
I set my phaser to "kill Richy, stun everybody else."
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
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Moe FwackyRight Here, Right NowDrives a BuickModeratormod
I am willing to cut any writer who touches time-travel some slack because it's impossible to handle intelligently
No. Nononononononononono. NO. I will not cut someone slack for doing something stupid because they couldn't figure out how to do it intelligently. If they can't figure out how to do it intelligently, they shouldn't be doing it at all. They do not get a pass for fucking up because they were too damn stupid to get it right.
No one forced them to make a time-travel Borg story, they decided to do it by themselves. When they realized they weren't good enough to pull it off, they should have moved on to Idea #2 on their list. Both the Picard Revenge story and a Picard vs. the Borg Queen story can be done just as well without time travel. They decided to put in time travel, they screwed it up, they take the blame. Unlike you, I will not give them a cookie and a pat on the back for screwing up.
And there are plenty of intelligent, coherent time travel movies out there. It's far from impossible; people have been doing it for decades. It's not impossible to handle intelligently, it's the writers who were unable to handle it intelligently, but rather than scrapping the idea and going with something they could do, they decided to go ahead with it and release a turd of a movie. And again, no, they do not get slack for doing that.
CycloneRanger, all of your points have all been brought up and countered, countered-countered, countered-countered-countered, and in some cases countered-countered-countered-countered in the thread already.
Zimmy, you wound me
Yes, but you need to counter them well. For example, saying that something is a random insert because YOU didn't know about it isn't a counterargument.
CycloneRanger, all of your points have all been brought up and countered, countered-countered, countered-countered-countered, and in some cases countered-countered-countered-countered in the thread already.
Zimmy, you wound me
Yes, but you need to counter them well. For example, saying that something is a random insert because YOU didn't know about it isn't a counterargument.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
A "fascinating" from Spock.
A double handed power strike during a fight.
I will only accept this movie when I see all of these things.
Man, okay, I've been watching a ton of Star Trek lately. What is the deal with those double handed attacks? Is it some sort of futuristic fighting style that we're just not advanced enough to understand? Everybody does it all the time, and I just noticed for some reason.
I'm just waiting for this to get to 100 so i can make a thread with a better title
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
I'd just like to say I hated Undiscovered Country because it was sloppily written and had a lame ending and included a bunch of dumb characters and cheesy dialogue (not in the good way)
Admittedly I haven't watched the whole thing in like eight years but I sincerely doubt it was as good as Wrath of Khan or First Contact or even Star Trek IV
A "fascinating" from Spock.
A double handed power strike during a fight.
I will only accept this movie when I see all of these things.
Man, okay, I've been watching a ton of Star Trek lately. What is the deal with those double handed attacks? Is it some sort of futuristic fighting style that we're just not advanced enough to understand? Everybody does it all the time, and I just noticed for some reason.
I'm pretty sure it's a relatively easy stunt for the principals to learn, and delivered to someone's padded back it probably doesn't run a very high risk of injuring the person struck.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
The Borg Queen IS the worst idea since the Enterprise taking a stroll to the center of the Galaxy to find God.
No really, I prefer Borg as Borg, single-purposed entities bent on perfecting the universe with emotionless unending persistence, not 'lol this chick here is the leader and has emotions so the whole origin of the Borg is now dead and silly'.
Posts
As for the second part, well, how convenient. The blatant, massive problem with the plot that reduces it from "bad" to "laughable nonsensical" is "outside the context of the movie".
The fact Cochrane developed warp travel was established as part of the Star Trek mythos. The importance of his first flight towards establishing first contact with the Vulcans was not. That was made up for this movie. Without that new piece of evidence, why should I care if Cochrane's first warp flight was today or next month? Doesn't make a bit of difference.
Then you're not arguing with me that they didn't give an actual explanation of the Phoenix until later in the movie?
When your main villain serves no point in the plot, I call it a crippling flaw.
She was part of that scene, sure. But her role in that scene could just as easily been played by Riker (Picard's first officer), Troi (ship councellor) or Crusher (Picard's oldest friend and confident). For the rest of the movie she was nothing but dead weight. So, another character who, much like the Borg Queen, could have been completely eliminated without changing the film.
Which is cool in a Zombie flick, and I'd be the first to get excited for it. But it's not what Star Trek is about.
No, you should feel ashamed for totally missing the fuckin' point.[/quote]No, you should be ashamed for trying to defend that piece of crap that was First Contact.
So Harry Kim was so lame they couldn't even think of a more personal story for him than to steal one of Sisko's? Or were the writers that bad? I will accept 'yes' as a blanket answer for both.
I did not know what the Phoenix was, or how Cochrane's first warp flight related to first contact with the Vulcans. Because, you know, they made it up for that movie. And didn't actually explain it until halfway in that movie. So for half of the movie we're told to care about something we never heard of before and given no reason.
It's about a dead body somehow being transformed back into a baby and rapidly growing yet unlike the planet it's on the body stops growing at just the right age and doesn't suffer rapid death like the entire planet that caused the whole thing did.
Meanwhile the body is given the memories of it's former self through some voodoo bullshit which calls into question why don't Vulcans do that all the time just grow a clone and give it the original's memory.
Basically it's a giant RESET button that negates the entire lesson Kirk learned in Wrath of Khan.
I'm pretty sure that the First Contact idea came way before the movie, though I guess it would be difficult to find out.
The Borg sphere was a "lifeboat". The attack on Earth by the cube was an assimilation attempt, when it failed, the queen's "lifeboat" was jettisoned, and was sent back in time with a secondary objective of securing the planet in the past.
Star Trek lore nerds will tell you about Cochrane and his importance in Earth's space travel from a TOS episode where Cochrane and his acheivements are introduced.
Yeah, the Queen was a bad retcon. However- she wasn't just "after a good humping". She was using Data's emotions to gain access to the Enterprise, in order to facilitate the assimilation of earth. She mainly exists to be a counterpoint to Data, who is still learning to control his new emotions. And, she wasn't "there" at Wolf 359, but Picard mentions it because she was in his head.
She's there as an outside observer- and to act as Picard's concience while he's on his revenge trip. If she wasn't there to talk him down, he'd have sacrificed everyone in an attempt to destroy the Borg.
Action scenes for the sake of action scenes. And horrible one-liners don't really have a place in Star Trek.
YMMV.
Where are you getting the idea that the Borg only wanted to bring the standard of living up to the Borg level? That the Borg were seeking perfection by assimilating other species was a major point in the movie, in fact. And do you seriously think that they could gain all of the Federation's technology simply through the contents of the Enterprise-D's databases? Even if this was true, there would still be years of advancement between when that happened and the events of First Contact--and they're not just seeking technological advances, but people and culture and ideas and preexisting technology, all of which were much more developed in the 24th century.
As I said before, it wasn't really what the movie was about; it was a contrivance used to get to what the movie was about. But yes, I will yield you this point.
It wasn't that late in the movie, as I remember it. Maybe toward the end of the first act, at the latest. Furthermore, do you understand how writing works? You can't always drop trou and explain everything right away. It would fuck up the pace and land you directly in exposition-city. When you can't explain everything right now, you implicitly promise to explain it by hinting that an explanation is forthcoming, which is exactly what the writers did.
The movie wasn't really about Picard versus the Borg Queen, although it included Picard versus the Borg Queen. It was about Picard versus Picard's lust for revenge, and his past with the Borg. She was used as a thematic device to tie into that storyline, but it's a little disingenuous to call her the main villain as if the story centers on Picard's confrontation with her.
They needed somebody like her to basically be able to give Picard a slap to the face and wake him the fuck up. They made that point pretty clear by the amount of contempt with which he treated Worf's opinion in the scene immediately before that one. He's a man who is used to that crew following his orders, believing that he knows best and trusting that he won't lead them astray. Remember ...All Good Things? How much they trusted him when he was doing things that seemed insane and suicidal? It was an established element of his character and of theirs. Lilly was able to come in as an outside observer, take in the situation, and say, "Jean Luc, you're pretty fucked up, man." It was the only thing that could get through to him.
Well, if you want to get into that--Star Trek is about stupid-ass utopian bullshit with no connection to reality. I'd rather have a cool story about a man's struggle against his own desire for revenge coupled with a fun zombie flick than "Gene Roddenberry's vision". To be frank. (DS9 is also the best Trek series, and the one that least fits with what Roddenberry wanted from the franchise.)
Oh, I can hear it now, interesting idea, not Insurrection, III, or V, what the hell is wrong with you?
The first movie is too...damn...long.
3 at least has Doc Brown in it!
5 has...I dunno, God wanting a spaceship?
Insurrection has...a shorter running time?
I like 2,4,6, and I don't hate Generations or First Contact. Nemesis proves that Janeway* (and bad acting, and a bad script) can ruin a good thing.
As for an actual order?
6,2,4,8,7,3,5,10,9,1
"They didn't establish that the Phoenix Warp Ship was what instigated first contact with the Vulcan's in pre-established Trek lore. So it was something new I found out when I saw the movie. HOW DARE THEY!"
Edit - I typed "knew" instead of "new"
Fixed now.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Basically, it's an effective movie but it seems like you wanted the screen equivalent of a trek novel that's meticulously accurate but lacking in an entertaining plot.
It managed to blind side us quite well. It had a brand new super hardcore ship, new uniforms an action heavy plot and horror styled villains, but under the new shiny coat it just doesn't have much there. Most of its problems have already been raised. The worst in my opinion being the queen and an out of character Picard.
Orem, you obviously don't like Star Trek very much. You seem to want something else.
These are weak defenses. If the pheonix and cochrin are supposed to be known beforehand by the audience, then we shouldn't be introducing a new character to make it more palatable to non trek fans.
Having to know about an episode that's not even from the series the movie is based off of to not be confused for half the movie is shitty writing. I'm sorry, I see lots of apologists for the script, but First Contact was very poorly written.
Almost anyone in this thread could write a better script.
The Borg Queen is every bit as retarded as some of the worst moments in Star Trek V. When your main villain and related subplots can be removed from the movie entirely without altering it significantly, that's bad. The borg queen and data sex plots were bad and didn't fit with them trying to have a serious movie. It's just such a ridiculous villain that actually makes the borg less menacing.
Also, yes, there was far too much running and gunning in the movie. The only real internal struggle I felt was with Picard and that's because Patrick Stewart is so awesome and makes good use of what he's given. I don't feel for cochrin or whatserface in the slightest.
Also hands down the best Enterprice was NCC-1701A. No over contenders.
In love with that ship tbh.
So, I disagree. I think exactly what the Borg should have been is a sci-fi zombie flick, because that's what the Borg are: sci-fi zombies.
Instead of the bee-lining it to Earth in Best of Both Worlds, the Federation's first post-Picard encounter with the Borg should have been outposts just blinking off the map. When they went, they find the Borg. The Borg don't really bother with them. They sort of limply reach out towards the investigating ships, but don't really pursue them with any vigor.
There should have been a huge arc with the Federation simply trying to keep the spreading Borg infection at bay.
They should have made a reappearance in DS9, but only in the shadows. In the middle of the Dominion War, there should have been indications that the Dominion was suddenly forced to deal with something else in the Gamma quadrant. That something else should have been revealed to be the Borg infection encroaching on Dominion space.
And then Voyager... Voyager should have been shot in to the middle of Borg space. The entire quadrant completely overrun by the Borg.
The Borg were fucking scary. They were shamblers, but they were technologically superior shamblers. The only reason they just didn't completely wipe the floor with us was because their motivations were alien. A large part of Trek encounters with the Borg should have been us utterly failing because we kept treating them like something we've encountered before and something that acts vaguely humanoid.
Maybe I should clarify, both for you and other people in the thread who seem to be misunderstanding my objection here. Yes, they can introduce new elements in Star Trek lore, and explain them anytime they want in the movie, and adjust it to fit the pace of the movie. The problem wasn't that. The problem is that the characters on-screen immediately make a big deal of the Phoenix, long before it's explained to the viewer what it is and what's so important about it. The viewer, be it a die-hard Star Trek nerd or someone who's never heard of Star Trek before, has simply no way of knowing what's going on. He has no way to relate to the characters, no way to share their concern or appreciate the urgency of the situation, no way to even know what the hell is going on. That is bad writing, and that is the problem I have with this script.
I would disagree. The climax of the movie is Picard's confrontation with the Borg Queen, and the denouement comes after he defeats her. Granted, Picard vs. revenge occurs as well, but that's resolved, what, around 2/3 of the way in when he yells at Lilly? If that was the main focus of the movie, then it would have been all but resolved at that point - instead we still get most of the Borg Queen subplot to go through. Which means either that the movie was about the Borg Queen, or that it's much, much worse written than I had realised.
And you wouldn't call the Borg Queen the main villain? WTF? The Borg are the villain, and she's the leader of the Borg, and her defeat ends the movie. How is she not the main villain? If not her, then who?
Alright, I'll grant you that scene. But it still doesn't fit with her character. She was lost and clueless, being led around by Picard like dead weight until that point. Then she stands up to Picard and makes him see the errors of his ways. Then they evacuate the ship and she's never seen again. She should have been better written.
Well, if you want to get into that--Star Trek is about stupid-ass utopian bullshit with no connection to reality. I'd rather have a cool story about a man's struggle against his own desire for revenge coupled with a fun zombie flick than "Gene Roddenberry's vision". To be frank. (DS9 is also the best Trek series, and the one that least fits with what Roddenberry wanted from the franchise.)[/quote]
Alright, look at it this way. Wrath of Khan is often considered the best Star Trek movie, right? And it's also a story about revenge, like you say First Contact was. So what's different about it? It's a Star Trek story. Kirk and his crew cannot be substituted with generic action heroes, Khan's men cannot be substituted with stock villains, Khan cannot be removed from the story without it falling apart (unlike the Borg Queen), and the ships they're fighting on cannot be substituted with the dark corridors of an abandoned shopping mall/military lab/ancient tomb/etc. Wrath of Khan simply cannot work as a non-Star-Trek movie, while First Contact can work (and would probably be better) as a zombie action flick in any other setting. That's what I meant when I said it's not Star Trek.
I don't remember this. Maybe I read some kind of book that mentioned it beforehand, but I never remember feeling confused about the Phoenix or its significance.
The Borg queen was a mistake, but not as terrible a mistake as you suggest. When I first saw her, I immediately assumed she was Locutus: Attempt #2. That is, that she was a figurehead for the collective (with no more authority than a drone) designed to better serve them in interactions with the primitive authority-driven cultures of the galaxy.
I do agree that the ret-con slipping her into the battle at Wolf 359 was retarded, though. Uh... Lily was the one who convinced Picard to abandon the ship when the rest of the crew was blinded by their loyalty/respect for him. Her character never bothered me.
This is pretty much a huge exaggeration. There are a few battle scenes, but they needed to be there to give the "hopeless last stand" impression without which Picard's breakdown is meaningless.
I want to believe that you're joking and aren't one of those stereotypical raging internet nerds, but I can't get rid of the lingering doubt. You are joking here, right?
No it wasn't.
No it wasn't.
I respectfully disagree.
Zimmy, you wound me
I set my phaser to "kill Richy, stun everybody else."
No. Nononononononononono. NO. I will not cut someone slack for doing something stupid because they couldn't figure out how to do it intelligently. If they can't figure out how to do it intelligently, they shouldn't be doing it at all. They do not get a pass for fucking up because they were too damn stupid to get it right.
No one forced them to make a time-travel Borg story, they decided to do it by themselves. When they realized they weren't good enough to pull it off, they should have moved on to Idea #2 on their list. Both the Picard Revenge story and a Picard vs. the Borg Queen story can be done just as well without time travel. They decided to put in time travel, they screwed it up, they take the blame. Unlike you, I will not give them a cookie and a pat on the back for screwing up.
And there are plenty of intelligent, coherent time travel movies out there. It's far from impossible; people have been doing it for decades. It's not impossible to handle intelligently, it's the writers who were unable to handle it intelligently, but rather than scrapping the idea and going with something they could do, they decided to go ahead with it and release a turd of a movie. And again, no, they do not get slack for doing that.
Yes, but you need to counter them well. For example, saying that something is a random insert because YOU didn't know about it isn't a counterargument.
If his doesn't, mine will. My pants twitch every time I watch the third trailer.
XBL : lJesse Custerl | MWO: Jesse Custer | Best vid ever. | 2nd best vid ever.
I can't wait to see Sulu cut some fuckers
Also wanting Urban/McCoy to say 'Dammit Jim I'm a Doctor not a...'
A redshirt dying first.
A "I'm a doctor not a..."
Also a "He's dead Jim."
A "fascinating" from Spock.
A double handed power strike during a fight.
I will only accept this movie when I see all of these things.
Needs a vulcan neck pinch.
And kirk banging a green woman.
And a "I have had it with these motherfucking Romulans on this motherfucking starship!"
Man, okay, I've been watching a ton of Star Trek lately. What is the deal with those double handed attacks? Is it some sort of futuristic fighting style that we're just not advanced enough to understand? Everybody does it all the time, and I just noticed for some reason.
Admittedly I haven't watched the whole thing in like eight years but I sincerely doubt it was as good as Wrath of Khan or First Contact or even Star Trek IV
It was probably better than Nemesis though
But not Insurrection
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
and I will watch them one by one in a row
and I will decide which was the best
PROBLEM SOLVED
I'm pretty sure it's a relatively easy stunt for the principals to learn, and delivered to someone's padded back it probably doesn't run a very high risk of injuring the person struck.
No really, I prefer Borg as Borg, single-purposed entities bent on perfecting the universe with emotionless unending persistence, not 'lol this chick here is the leader and has emotions so the whole origin of the Borg is now dead and silly'.
But it was still a fun movie.