You choose Undiscovered Country over Wrath of Khan?
What kind of nerds are you?
Khan has a better story, better "acting", better action, and a better ending. The only thing VI has over II was Sulu as Captain of the Excelsior- oh, and that Kim Catrall rumor...
Yeah, I'd definitely go with Wrath of Khan. Much as I love The Undiscovered Country, I feel like it lost steam at a few parts, like Rura Penthe (however the fuck you spell that). TWoK is fantastic the whole way through.
And I know it's been pretty controversial in this thread, but despite its flaws, I'd put First Contact over VI as well.
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My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
VI was very symbolic with the end of the Cold War, which is why I like it so much. II is still fucking awesome, and if I'm just looking to watch some classic Trek awesome, it's II. But I think that VI is the better movie.
Khan and First Contact are the best of their respective casts. I like "Klingons Quoting Shakespeare", but it just doesn't have the weight that Khan does.
Khan and First Contact are the best of their respective casts. I like "Klingons Quoting Shakespeare", but it just doesn't have the weight that Khan does.
That's like pairing "City on the Edge of Forever" and Enterprise's Evil Time-Traveling Alien Space Nazi episode arc under the label "best 1930s time-travel episode of their respective series". I mean, sure, technically it's a correct grouping, but the two are so far apart on the quality spectrum as to make the label meaningless.
As for movies, I'd have to join the Undiscovered Country > Khan side of the debate. Don't get me wrong, both are excellent movies. But Undiscovered Country explored so many human issues, like racism and the end of the Cold War, and that's the kind of exploration Star Trek was really about. That's what pushes it over Khan in my view.
Khan and First Contact are the best of their respective casts. I like "Klingons Quoting Shakespeare", but it just doesn't have the weight that Khan does.
That's like pairing "City on the Edge of Forever" and Enterprise's Evil Time-Traveling Alien Space Nazi episode arc under the label "best 1930s time-travel episode of their respective series". I mean, sure, technically it's a correct grouping, but the two are so far apart on the quality spectrum as to make the label meaningless.
I would disagree there. Khan is better than First Contact, sure, but First Contact has its bright spots, too. I mean, come on.
It's not the first time he's lost it when confronted by the Borg. He broke down sobbing in his brother's vineyards after he was kidnapped and then restored by them, so his touchiness in the above scene is perfectly in character.
first contact is an okay movie as long as you don't think about it too hard
because it has plot-holes that are big enough to fit borg cubes through
Shhhh. You're ruining it.
Really, though, you have to intensify your suspension of disbelief anytime time travel comes up. It's never going to be handled intelligently and consistently.
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Moe FwackyRight Here, Right NowDrives a BuickModeratormod
edited March 2009
Pretty much each writer of a Star Trek episode has a different idea on how time travel works.
Really, though, you have to intensify your suspension of disbelief anytime time travel comes up. It's never going to be handled intelligently and consistently.
Actually, the very nature of time travel makes it extremely difficult to use in a story without introducing paradoxes that look like plot holes.
For First Contact, the time travel is just something you're supposed to take as a given, just like in Star Trek IV. It's techno-magic. Run with it. Once you get past that, there's a pretty good movie there.
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My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
First Contact is awesome, end of discussion.
I mean it has everything, time travel, emotion, picard, data's human conflict, awesome new ship, the borg, the birth of warp travel and a damn good story.
First contact was enjoyable, but it was a bad movie. The script is like bad fan fiction, I'm sorry. You have to turn your brain off, and that makes it bad.
First Contact is awesome, end of discussion.
I mean it has everything, time travel, emotion, picard, data's human conflict, awesome new ship, the borg, the birth of warp travel and a damn good story.
I rate it up there with Khan.
Yea it's a giant piece of fanservice, but how can anyone honestly compare WoK to it... I just don't understand this.
okay so the borg have time travel technology right
okay i guess, i can dig it
so, wait... they fight all the way to Earth in the 24th century, get their cube blown up, and end up with the Enterprise following them into the past to foil their plans...
why the buttfuck didn't they just time travel back in like the delta quadrant or wherever they're from and just zip across space unhindered. i mean, who was dorking around during those years? the vulcans? please.
it's the plot hole that ruins the movie. the entire reason for the opening battle and the enterprise even going back in time with them is completely retarded, because they could've just taken the easy way.
the movie has a bunch of other plot holes, but that's the biggest, nastiest one
Because that is specifically how the borg work. The collective removes imaginative thought from the process and ends up going with the most immediate practical response to the situation. Through out next gen that is painted as their weakness. I understand that the introduction of the queen kinda weakens that but it can be assumed that she is just pushing a direction and the way her ideas are implemented are still through the collective thought process.
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
Star Trek: First Contact
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home
Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Star Trek: Generations
Star Trek: Nemesis
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
Star Trek: Insurrection
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
Because that is specifically how the borg work. The collective removes imaginative thought from the process and ends up going with the most immediate practical response to the situation. Through out next gen that is painted as their weakness. I understand that the introduction of the queen kinda weakens that but it can be assumed that she is just pushing a direction and the way her ideas are implemented are still through the collective thought process.
Was there a queen before Picard/Locutus?
For some reason I thought that the contact with Picard significantly changed the collective.
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
Star Trek: First Contact
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home
Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Star Trek: Generations
Star Trek: Nemesis
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
Star Trek: Insurrection
I'll never understand how anyone can rate Nemesis as anything but rock bottom. It was a terrible fucking movie.
And Insurrection is just terribly mediocre. It's not bad in any real way.
Pony: Because they wanted to assimilate the species at a level when they would have more to gain from the conquest. More technology, especially. Traveling back in time to assimilate them then was a contingency plan--having lost two cubes, it was their way of saying "fuck this, their tech isn't worth it. We'd be better off just taking care of them now."
And because it was a convenient plot device that quickly got us to the meat of the story.
Honestly, though, these are the kinds of things that, for me, I can accept as a given, because it's not really what the movie is about. If you give me a list of things and say "accept this, and I'll tell you a story you'll enjoy", I can generally get past that, as long as you stick to the list and don't go changing the rules in the middle of the game.
It's like a story about a genie who grants three wishes. No way in fuck are there genies, and if there were, no way would they grant three fucking wishes if they did exist. But I can take it as a given, as long as you only get the three wishes--the problems don't start start until you conveniently add a fourth wish at a later time when the plot needs it.
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My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
In more words: We have a time-travel plot that makes no sense. Why fly to Earth then travel back instead of doing the opposite? If the Borg have time-travel technology, why not try again, and again? Why stop at one botched time-travel attempt at rewriting history?
We have a plot centered on the flight of the Phoenix. We have never heard of the Phoenix before, nor do we have any idea beforehand of its impact on humanity. So why are we supposed to care? And more importantly, why don't they tell us about it until like midway through the movie? The Enterprise arrives in the past, realises what's going on, and everyone on the brige just stands there looking shocked going "My God, the Phoenix!" and we the viewers are left wondering "WTF is the Phoenix?". Then they beam down and touch the missile the Phoenix is in and orgasm, and we the viewers are still left wondering "WTF is the Phoenix?". And on and on it goes like that, until finally someone fills in Cochrane (and we the viewers) on just what the hell is going on here.
Then there's the Borg Queen. She completely breaks the Borg concept in her own right; instead of being an unstoppable army with a hive mind whose workings are completely alien to us, they're reduced to the tin soldiers of a sexually-frustrated girl looking for a good humping. She's introduced as the worst retcon ever: "Oh, BTW, the Queen was on that cube that attacked Earth, did we forget to mention that before? Oops, our bad." And for all her faults, what does she bring to the movie? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I dare anyone to find a way the plot of the movie would be different if the Borg Queen had never existed.
Then there's Picard walking around the ship with a clueless 21st-century sidekick. When Kirk picked up a local girl in Star Trek IV, she held her own, and made a significant contribution to the movie. The girl following Picard around is worthless.
And the rest of the movie is Starfleet shooing at the Borg in corridors, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in space, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in holodecks, Starfleet shooting at the Borg next to the deflector dish, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in engineering... see a pattern there? What's worse is all along, we get bad catchphrases like "assimilate this!"
First Contact was a bad movie and a bad Star Trek story. Anyone who liked it should be ashamed of themselves. End of discussion.
In more words: We have a time-travel plot that makes no sense. Why fly to Earth then travel back instead of doing the opposite? If the Borg have time-travel technology, why not try again, and again? Why stop at one botched time-travel attempt at rewriting history?
Even without time travel, back when we knew little about the borg they were scary. When we learned the had millions of cubes and could get to earth in no time, they became stupid. When we learned they had a queen who wanted to nail Data (despite in TNG data being referred to as "primitive artificial lifeform" by a borg) because he was advanced, they became retarded.
Sending a couple of cubes is all they had to do, period. No time travel, nothing silly, just a direct military assault with more than one ship.
Also what the hell was with the borg bombardment? Dropping rocks from space would do more damage, it was like hand grenade sized explosions.
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
Star Trek: First Contact
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home
Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Star Trek: Generations
Star Trek: Nemesis
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
Star Trek: Insurrection
I'll never understand how anyone can rate Nemesis as anything but rock bottom. It was a terrible fucking movie.
And Insurrection is just terribly mediocre. It's not bad in any real way.
Nemesis had a relatively cohesive plot without nearly as many holes in it as Insurrection or First Contact. It wasn't as enjoyable as either of those films, and contained less fan service (it was closer to a film for a general audience than just trekkies), but in its own right I believe was a better film. Aside from the contrived Troi rape scene the villain was internally consistant throughout the entire film, which is more than I can say for the borg or the son'ah
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
Star Trek: First Contact
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home
Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Star Trek: Generations
Star Trek: Nemesis
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
Star Trek: Insurrection
I'll never understand how anyone can rate Nemesis as anything but rock bottom. It was a terrible fucking movie.
And Insurrection is just terribly mediocre. It's not bad in any real way.
Nemesis, for all the talky bits, has basically the best one on one spaceship fight in the Trek series. Sorry guys, but TWoK's fight looks incredibly dated and terrible at this point. I'm not saying it's good, but compared to the bottom 3?
Insurrection would've been a terrible Prime Directive episode of TNG (was there a good Prime Directive episode of TNG?), but at least then it would've only been 40ish minutes. Making it movie length actually increased the suck, not to mention the time-stopping crap and everything else in the movie. To date, it's the only Trek movie I've fallen asleep in.
The Search for Spock's sole redeeming factor is the Doc Brown Klingon captain. From stem to stern, everything else about the movie sucked. Horrid plot, awful acting, boring action scenes.
Then there's the Final Frontier. Just, just bad. Maybe Star Trek: TAS bad. But still bad in all ways. I heard, secondhand, that Shatner was actually crying on the set over rewrites done to Kirk in the movie. That's how shite it was.
In more words: We have a time-travel plot that makes no sense. Why fly to Earth then travel back instead of doing the opposite? If the Borg have time-travel technology, why not try again, and again? Why stop at one botched time-travel attempt at rewriting history?
I already explained the former part; the latter part is outside the context of the movie, although it is a fair point.
We have a plot centered on the flight of the Phoenix. We have never heard of the Phoenix before, nor do we have any idea beforehand of its impact on humanity. So why are we supposed to care? And more importantly, why don't they tell us about it until like midway through the movie? The Enterprise arrives in the past, realises what's going on, and everyone on the brige just stands there looking shocked going "My God, the Phoenix!" and we the viewers are left wondering "WTF is the Phoenix?". Then they beam down and touch the missile the Phoenix is in and orgasm, and we the viewers are still left wondering "WTF is the Phoenix?". And on and on it goes like that, until finally someone fills in Cochrane (and we the viewers) on just what the hell is going on here.
Um, what? As I remember it, they gave us some exposition on the Phoenix (not a full explanation, but enough to hint that the full explanation is coming) as soon as the Borg sphere went back in time. You know, the scene where Cochrane is drunk and Lilly is fed up with his bullshit and then the Borg start bombing the whole facility? Yeah, that. Also, Cochrane's first warp flight had already been an established part of the Star Trek mythos.
Then there's the Borg Queen. She completely breaks the Borg concept in her own right; instead of being an unstoppable army with a hive mind whose workings are completely alien to us, they're reduced to the tin soldiers of a sexually-frustrated girl looking for a good humping. She's introduced as the worst retcon ever: "Oh, BTW, the Queen was on that cube that attacked Earth, did we forget to mention that before? Oops, our bad." And for all her faults, what does she bring to the movie? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I dare anyone to find a way the plot of the movie would be different if the Borg Queen had never existed.
She was more important thematically than she was to the plot, honestly. I wasn't the biggest fan of her either, but I wouldn't call it a crippling flaw.
Then there's Picard walking around the ship with a clueless 21st-century sidekick. When Kirk picked up a local girl in Star Trek IV, she held her own, and made a significant contribution to the movie. The girl following Picard around is worthless.
Did you watch the scene I linked above? She was critical to Picard's character arc, which is the best part of the movie.
And the rest of the movie is Starfleet shooing at the Borg in corridors, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in space, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in holodecks, Starfleet shooting at the Borg next to the deflector dish, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in engineering... see a pattern there? What's worse is all along, we get bad catchphrases like "assimilate this!"
All of which comprised what I felt was a well-handled and tightly paced action/thriller.
First Contact was a bad movie and a bad Star Trek story. Anyone who liked it should be ashamed of themselves. End of discussion.
No, you should feel ashamed for totally missing the fuckin' point.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
There were three good Star Trek movies: Wrath of Khan, Voyage Home, and Undiscovered Country. Rank them in any order you want, they remain the only three good movies out of the 10 that were made. The other seven all sucked. They sucked for different reasons, to different degrees, and with different casts, but they sucked nontheless.
oremLK i am going to go ahead and label you an apologist for bad movies
are you okay with that label
You can label me whatever you want. I guess it's easier than, you know, debating, or having discourse. Or using punctuation, or capitalizing proper nouns and words at the beginning of sentences.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
There were three good Star Trek movies: Wrath of Khan, Voyage Home, and Undiscovered Country. Rank them in any order you want, they remain the only three good movies out of the 10 that were made. The other seven all sucked. They sucked for different reasons, to different degrees, and with different casts, but they sucked nontheless.
Wait.
You didn't know what the Phoenix was? Zefram Cochrane? The first warp test?
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My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
speaking of the economy, I think that in the trek-verse Energy is the still the main scarce resource, and that seems to be the only thing that people still "pay" for. Remember Sisko saying that he used a month's worth of transporter credits in the first week he was at the academy so he could transport home for supper every day. We also have several examples on earth of normal restaurants as we would see today, where real food is cooked.
It was Harry Kim, and it wasn't an energy ration deal, it was that cadets were only allowed to use it so much while at the academy.
No, it was Sisko. He missed his father's cooking so much he used a month's worth of transporter rations to make it home for dinner every day. It's one of my favorite lines of his.
Actually we're both right, Harry Kim missed his parents and Sisko missed his dad's cooking, both within the context of being at the academy
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
edited March 2009
I don't get why people rate Search for Spock so poorly. I mean, it's kind of flat and feels more like a two-hour episode than a movie, but there's nothing offensively wrong with it. Also, the bit with them stealing the Enterprise is one of my favorite TOS cast moments ever.
Posts
that is my favorite trek movie, even moreso than Wrath of Khan
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
yea, pretty much this.
What kind of nerds are you?
Khan has a better story, better "acting", better action, and a better ending. The only thing VI has over II was Sulu as Captain of the Excelsior- oh, and that Kim Catrall rumor...
And I know it's been pretty controversial in this thread, but despite its flaws, I'd put First Contact over VI as well.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
No idea if either were ever true.
This was also supposedly on the bridge set itself if I remember correctly.
No pictures have ever surfaced, nor has it ever really been confirmed.
As for movies, I'd have to join the Undiscovered Country > Khan side of the debate. Don't get me wrong, both are excellent movies. But Undiscovered Country explored so many human issues, like racism and the end of the Cold War, and that's the kind of exploration Star Trek was really about. That's what pushes it over Khan in my view.
I would disagree there. Khan is better than First Contact, sure, but First Contact has its bright spots, too. I mean, come on.
TWoK has Bill Shatner shouting dramatically:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnSnfiUI54
While First Contact has this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRmmHPE8EvA
I really don't think that fits his character.
And for whatever it's worth, I prefer First Contact to all other Star Trek movies, including The Wrath of Khan, for exactly that reason.
It's not the first time he's lost it when confronted by the Borg. He broke down sobbing in his brother's vineyards after he was kidnapped and then restored by them, so his touchiness in the above scene is perfectly in character.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
because it has plot-holes that are big enough to fit borg cubes through
Really, though, you have to intensify your suspension of disbelief anytime time travel comes up. It's never going to be handled intelligently and consistently.
Actually, the very nature of time travel makes it extremely difficult to use in a story without introducing paradoxes that look like plot holes.
For First Contact, the time travel is just something you're supposed to take as a given, just like in Star Trek IV. It's techno-magic. Run with it. Once you get past that, there's a pretty good movie there.
I mean it has everything, time travel, emotion, picard, data's human conflict, awesome new ship, the borg, the birth of warp travel and a damn good story.
I rate it up there with Khan.
It's like the Lethal Weapon 2 of Star Trek
Yea it's a giant piece of fanservice, but how can anyone honestly compare WoK to it... I just don't understand this.
okay i guess, i can dig it
so, wait... they fight all the way to Earth in the 24th century, get their cube blown up, and end up with the Enterprise following them into the past to foil their plans...
why the buttfuck didn't they just time travel back in like the delta quadrant or wherever they're from and just zip across space unhindered. i mean, who was dorking around during those years? the vulcans? please.
it's the plot hole that ruins the movie. the entire reason for the opening battle and the enterprise even going back in time with them is completely retarded, because they could've just taken the easy way.
the movie has a bunch of other plot holes, but that's the biggest, nastiest one
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
Star Trek: First Contact
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home
Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Star Trek: Generations
Star Trek: Nemesis
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
Star Trek: Insurrection
Pfft, TOS and TNG both had similar episodes.
Then again, they were both horrible and they really should have learned by then to not do that anymore.
Was there a queen before Picard/Locutus?
For some reason I thought that the contact with Picard significantly changed the collective.
I'll never understand how anyone can rate Nemesis as anything but rock bottom. It was a terrible fucking movie.
And Insurrection is just terribly mediocre. It's not bad in any real way.
And because it was a convenient plot device that quickly got us to the meat of the story.
Honestly, though, these are the kinds of things that, for me, I can accept as a given, because it's not really what the movie is about. If you give me a list of things and say "accept this, and I'll tell you a story you'll enjoy", I can generally get past that, as long as you stick to the list and don't go changing the rules in the middle of the game.
It's like a story about a genie who grants three wishes. No way in fuck are there genies, and if there were, no way would they grant three fucking wishes if they did exist. But I can take it as a given, as long as you only get the three wishes--the problems don't start start until you conveniently add a fourth wish at a later time when the plot needs it.
In more words: We have a time-travel plot that makes no sense. Why fly to Earth then travel back instead of doing the opposite? If the Borg have time-travel technology, why not try again, and again? Why stop at one botched time-travel attempt at rewriting history?
We have a plot centered on the flight of the Phoenix. We have never heard of the Phoenix before, nor do we have any idea beforehand of its impact on humanity. So why are we supposed to care? And more importantly, why don't they tell us about it until like midway through the movie? The Enterprise arrives in the past, realises what's going on, and everyone on the brige just stands there looking shocked going "My God, the Phoenix!" and we the viewers are left wondering "WTF is the Phoenix?". Then they beam down and touch the missile the Phoenix is in and orgasm, and we the viewers are still left wondering "WTF is the Phoenix?". And on and on it goes like that, until finally someone fills in Cochrane (and we the viewers) on just what the hell is going on here.
Then there's the Borg Queen. She completely breaks the Borg concept in her own right; instead of being an unstoppable army with a hive mind whose workings are completely alien to us, they're reduced to the tin soldiers of a sexually-frustrated girl looking for a good humping. She's introduced as the worst retcon ever: "Oh, BTW, the Queen was on that cube that attacked Earth, did we forget to mention that before? Oops, our bad." And for all her faults, what does she bring to the movie? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I dare anyone to find a way the plot of the movie would be different if the Borg Queen had never existed.
Then there's Picard walking around the ship with a clueless 21st-century sidekick. When Kirk picked up a local girl in Star Trek IV, she held her own, and made a significant contribution to the movie. The girl following Picard around is worthless.
And the rest of the movie is Starfleet shooing at the Borg in corridors, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in space, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in holodecks, Starfleet shooting at the Borg next to the deflector dish, Starfleet shooting at the Borg in engineering... see a pattern there? What's worse is all along, we get bad catchphrases like "assimilate this!"
First Contact was a bad movie and a bad Star Trek story. Anyone who liked it should be ashamed of themselves. End of discussion.
Even without time travel, back when we knew little about the borg they were scary. When we learned the had millions of cubes and could get to earth in no time, they became stupid. When we learned they had a queen who wanted to nail Data (despite in TNG data being referred to as "primitive artificial lifeform" by a borg) because he was advanced, they became retarded.
Sending a couple of cubes is all they had to do, period. No time travel, nothing silly, just a direct military assault with more than one ship.
Also what the hell was with the borg bombardment? Dropping rocks from space would do more damage, it was like hand grenade sized explosions.
Nemesis had a relatively cohesive plot without nearly as many holes in it as Insurrection or First Contact. It wasn't as enjoyable as either of those films, and contained less fan service (it was closer to a film for a general audience than just trekkies), but in its own right I believe was a better film. Aside from the contrived Troi rape scene the villain was internally consistant throughout the entire film, which is more than I can say for the borg or the son'ah
Nemesis, for all the talky bits, has basically the best one on one spaceship fight in the Trek series. Sorry guys, but TWoK's fight looks incredibly dated and terrible at this point. I'm not saying it's good, but compared to the bottom 3?
Insurrection would've been a terrible Prime Directive episode of TNG (was there a good Prime Directive episode of TNG?), but at least then it would've only been 40ish minutes. Making it movie length actually increased the suck, not to mention the time-stopping crap and everything else in the movie. To date, it's the only Trek movie I've fallen asleep in.
The Search for Spock's sole redeeming factor is the Doc Brown Klingon captain. From stem to stern, everything else about the movie sucked. Horrid plot, awful acting, boring action scenes.
Then there's the Final Frontier. Just, just bad. Maybe Star Trek: TAS bad. But still bad in all ways. I heard, secondhand, that Shatner was actually crying on the set over rewrites done to Kirk in the movie. That's how shite it was.
I already explained the former part; the latter part is outside the context of the movie, although it is a fair point.
Um, what? As I remember it, they gave us some exposition on the Phoenix (not a full explanation, but enough to hint that the full explanation is coming) as soon as the Borg sphere went back in time. You know, the scene where Cochrane is drunk and Lilly is fed up with his bullshit and then the Borg start bombing the whole facility? Yeah, that. Also, Cochrane's first warp flight had already been an established part of the Star Trek mythos.
She was more important thematically than she was to the plot, honestly. I wasn't the biggest fan of her either, but I wouldn't call it a crippling flaw.
Did you watch the scene I linked above? She was critical to Picard's character arc, which is the best part of the movie.
All of which comprised what I felt was a well-handled and tightly paced action/thriller.
No, you should feel ashamed for totally missing the fuckin' point.
are you okay with that label
You can label me whatever you want. I guess it's easier than, you know, debating, or having discourse. Or using punctuation, or capitalizing proper nouns and words at the beginning of sentences.
Wait.
You didn't know what the Phoenix was? Zefram Cochrane? The first warp test?
Actually we're both right, Harry Kim missed his parents and Sisko missed his dad's cooking, both within the context of being at the academy