There's totally plot armor, it's like when stannis leads the charge at black water and doesn't get hurt and somehow gets away
Like we need to show he's a badass leader and fighter but it would suck for him to actually die like he almost certainly would so wham bam plot armor
I dunno it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's totally a thing
See also: wildlings charging the back gate and all 3 main characters survive
I mean I guess you could say that it's plot armor that caused him to be surrounded by soldier that protected him that entire time, He charged the wall and had men shielding his head from the rocks being thrown down and men around him when he climbed and fought on top of the wall (they were the ones that carried him away). It's not like he was in a one on one duel with some far superior warrior (such as Jaime, The Hound, The Mountain, the Martyll guy whose name I forget) or some other situation that should have been instant death. That's what I would consider plot armor, not a King being surrounded by his men, because that would just seem reasonable.
I don't know, I just think that calling plot armor on a show where main characters frequently die is a bit of a stretch.
I don't know why he'd go to King's Landing. At this point just go home, no one would give a shit.
yeah ned stark exiled him
if he just shows up at bear island and takes charge i dont think anybody will care
... Except for all the people on bear island that might not be super happy about having an outlaw slaver try to claim them.
Jorah's family didn't exile him, Roose wouldn't have exiled him, Ned Stark exiled him because he's the kind of guy that would exile a bannerman for selling a poacher into slavery
They lost a lot of people in the war, I'm sure they'd welcome Jorah's return
Hey Jorah whatcha been up to? Oh I see, helping out the lady with dragons who wants to come burninate our countrysides eh? Seems legit
What I really liked about this episode was how it made you care about people you despised before.
Probably the most emotional scene for me was Thorne fighting Tormund. Especially because up until that point, the show made you hate Thorne and like Tormund (or at least like him more than you liked Thorne). But almost immediately in that fight, you found yourself doing something you didn't think you would do. You were rooting for Thorne.
Or atleast I was.
It helped that Thorne WASN'T all talk. He's an asshole, but he's PROBABLY an asshole you'd rather have on your side than the other one
I absolutely loved his little drill sergent moment with the archers:
"Nock arrows!"
*A few archers fire prematurely*
"DOES NOCK MEAN DRAW?"
There's totally plot armor, it's like when stannis leads the charge at black water and doesn't get hurt and somehow gets away
Like we need to show he's a badass leader and fighter but it would suck for him to actually die like he almost certainly would so wham bam plot armor
I dunno it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's totally a thing
See also: wildlings charging the back gate and all 3 main characters survive
You're right, Tormund didn't die so the show clearly keeps characters with screen time ali- Oh wait Ygritte died and she was way bigger than Tormund ever was. Or did you mean Janos, Thorne or Gilly as major characters? Maybe plot armor is just a way to say "This character died and this didn't because it makes dramatical sense"? Then everyone in everything has plot armor.
Look I don't think anyone doesn't understand that the main characters of a story probably aren't going to drop like flies from influensa mid development. But with that broad a stroke that means Robb had plot armor in S1. And then he didn't. I can only extrapolate that freaking half the supporting cast also has plot armor until they don't, since mid season there are a lot of characters that aren't just gonna die to falling rocks because their involvement with the main cast/story has been initiated but not really cashed in on yet.
There was zero chance that Robb would die the week after he went to war for his dad. There's also zero chance that Pod dies when he follows Brienne out. There was no way Melisandre would die to poisoning, or some kind of ambush at Storms End. I guess there's a lot of plot armor to go around, I'm just not sure what the term denotes. I mean I'm pretty sure Davos's ship won't sink in a storm on their way to Braavos because that would be nonsensical, plot armor! Those kinds of voyages are pretty dangerous after all...
This is a show where Arya could lose her hand next week. She could also be thrown in a dungeon and left to rot for a season. I don't think she will die, but going all "Well Jaime's protected! What's the point of him being protected and taken to kings landing otherwise??" just doesn't say very much.
Edit: I hear you but I'm not sure why the Mormonts would take Jorah in "because the war has left them depleted". Jorah is one dude. The Mormonts presumably already have leadership. What do they gain from taking in a criminal as their leader?
And Stannis could never ever ever take Jorah in. Stannis doesn't grant pardons, period. Look to Onion knight for answers.
I don't know why he'd go to King's Landing. At this point just go home, no one would give a shit.
yeah ned stark exiled him
if he just shows up at bear island and takes charge i dont think anybody will care
... Except for all the people on bear island that might not be super happy about having an outlaw slaver try to claim them.
Jorah's family didn't exile him, Roose wouldn't have exiled him, Ned Stark exiled him because he's the kind of guy that would exile a bannerman for selling a poacher into slavery
They lost a lot of people in the war, I'm sure they'd welcome Jorah's return
Hey Jorah whatcha been up to? Oh I see, helping out the lady with dragons who wants to come burninate our countrysides eh? Seems legit
Stannis is the only one I could see taking him in, but I don't think Jorah would be up for that. Considering how devoted Jorah is , I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to help her from the shadows/sidelines despite her "banishing" him.
*I say Stannis because he may be desperate for ANY men.
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
If they had given Stannis more airtime/side characters , the could have potentially had another character take his place. But yeah not enough airtime to do that, so they had to go with Stannis. Or else it would be : Be invested in nameless handsome soldier #5
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
right
I don't know why everyone's getting so defensive about this, but it's a absolutely a thing it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
Casual Eddy on
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Jorah's father was the last Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. The same guy who gave Jon Snow that big lecture about how duty and honor are more important than any personal feelings you might have. The same guy that gave up his lordship voluntarily to serve in the Night's Watch in the first place, something he viewed as a noble and honorable service.
Slavery has been outlawed in Westeros for thousands of years, even back in the days before the Targaryens arrived. The disdain for slavery as a custom is probably as strong as the custom for guest rights, and we all saw how Mormont reacted when his men attacked Craster.
I'm pretty sure that if the daughter is anything like the father, she wouldn't exactly welcome Jorah back with open arms for disgracing the family, breaking the law, and then fleeing the just punishment.
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
right
I don't know why everyone's getting so defensive about this, but it's a absolutely a thing it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
I think mentally people equate plot armor as bad writing, and thus pointing out plot armor is an accusation of bad writing.
When really only poorly written plot armor is bad writing.
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
It wasn't that crazy though, I mean he didn't wade into enemies like a LOTR movie, and surviving retreats is a thing. My comment at the start was just that his survival didn't really have any explanation or scene time at all while a lot of the moments where main characters could have died had clear stated reasons why they didn't.
Also I agree, we can do better than talk about plot armor. Though last episode was just 50 minutes of awesome fighting, there's not really a lot to comment on or speculate about.
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
right
I don't know why everyone's getting so defensive about this, but it's a absolutely a thing it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
It's more when someone says "So and so has plot armor so of course they didn't die."
Except everyone essentially has plot armor right up until they don't.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
right
I don't know why everyone's getting so defensive about this, but it's a absolutely a thing it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
It's more when someone says "So and so has plot armor so of course they didn't die."
Except everyone essentially has plot armor right up until they don't.
Part of my profound shock and dismay when Ned was killed was my casual assumption, conditioned by years of TV convention, that he had plot armor and couldn't possibly die
If Jeor is anything to go by, the Mormounts are a pretty proud group. You don't just waltz in and say "I'm in charge now." Not after you were rightfully exiled by Ned Fucking Stark of all people.
He left the family valarian sword behind after dishonoring them. So that further enforces your point.
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
right
I don't know why everyone's getting so defensive about this, but it's a absolutely a thing it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
It's more when someone says "So and so has plot armor so of course they didn't die."
Except everyone essentially has plot armor right up until they don't.
Part of my profound shock and dismay when Ned was killed was my casual assumption, conditioned by years of TV convention, that he had plot armor and couldn't possibly die
But he didn't
I'm kinda curious if I would have been shocked or not. Like when someone mentioned the series I immediately knew it as the one where the main dude gets offed in the first book, because so many people were talking about it.
I'm curious because there is also the meta knowledge that a star like Sean Bean might not want to make a long term commitment. I'm certain I would have been surprised if it was a lesser known actor- that is if I hadn't known.
I don't know why he'd go to King's Landing. At this point just go home, no one would give a shit.
yeah ned stark exiled him
if he just shows up at bear island and takes charge i dont think anybody will care
... Except for all the people on bear island that might not be super happy about having an outlaw slaver try to claim them.
Jorah's family didn't exile him, Roose wouldn't have exiled him, Ned Stark exiled him because he's the kind of guy that would exile a bannerman for selling a poacher into slavery
They lost a lot of people in the war, I'm sure they'd welcome Jorah's return
Hey Jorah whatcha been up to? Oh I see, helping out the lady with dragons who wants to come burninate our countrysides eh? Seems legit
How many people outside the small council even know that?
Stannis wasn't just protected by plot to take the lead. He was also a good general in real terms.
Leading the charge was a thing that ancient leaders often did, based on circumstances or temperament. Alexander the Great was crazy like that. Caesar occasionally joined the battle (though I don't think the charge) when he felt the troops at that part of the line needed a boost, that that their glorious leader was in it with them. Stannis would have known that his troops were already scared as fuck that they'd lost half their friends, and could use some leadership by example.
Most battle casualties in those times weren't even suffered in the pitched battle stage. In a battle of tens of thousands per side, the victors lost only a few hundred or a few thousand, and the losers lost tens of thousands: the winners lost their (relatively few) soldiers in the battle; the losers lost most of theirs in the rout.* So a general could on a pure numbers basis be at the front and probably not die.
Yes it was risky. But war is risk. Telling a military leader in that day and age that he couldn't charge into battle because he'd surely die, he'd spit in your face. These generals lived in a time where they had to embody warrior culture to have the respect and loyalty of their men. Leading from the front and all that. Only as the frontlines became super-duper unpredictably dangerous - meaning bullets and other projectiles - did we lose the old warrior ideal of a general leading from the front.
It's weird that we're debating plot armour over something that happened all the time.
*And no, that doesn't mean Stannis couldn't have escaped.
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
right
I don't know why everyone's getting so defensive about this, but it's a absolutely a thing it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
It's more when someone says "So and so has plot armor so of course they didn't die."
Except everyone essentially has plot armor right up until they don't.
Part of my profound shock and dismay when Ned was killed was my casual assumption, conditioned by years of TV convention, that he had plot armor and couldn't possibly die
But he didn't
Yeah exactly.
tbh, I wasn't totally sold on the show in season one until that happened. Then I was hooked since it was shown that anyone could die at any time.
The near absence of plot armor is why I like this series.
There's totally plot armor, it's like when stannis leads the charge at black water and doesn't get hurt and somehow gets away
Like we need to show he's a badass leader and fighter but it would suck for him to actually die like he almost certainly would so wham bam plot armor
I dunno it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's totally a thing
See also: wildlings charging the back gate and all 3 main characters survive
Well it's not really plot armour so much as the show and the narrative not fully clicking on a realistic level. Plot armour is not people surviving random shit, it's characters surviving such situations because their existence is what the story is about.
It's a combination of a character that is obviously not going to die (being for example the lead of the whole show) and a situation where their survival is extremely unlikely. Stannis didn't die, but he could have and the story could have still gone on. He wasn't protected by the fact that the story was obviously about him.
That said we always have a certain degree in any story of this. Even in real life. There is always luck which is literally indistinguishable from plot armour.
Be careful when you start throwing around the R-word, people survive and experience far crazier and weirder stuff in real life than any character does in fiction. Stories has to contend with suspension of disbelief, the real world does not.
There's totally plot armor, it's like when stannis leads the charge at black water and doesn't get hurt and somehow gets away
Like we need to show he's a badass leader and fighter but it would suck for him to actually die like he almost certainly would so wham bam plot armor
I dunno it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's totally a thing
See also: wildlings charging the back gate and all 3 main characters survive
Well it's not really plot armour so much as the show and the narrative not fully clicking on a realistic level. Plot armour is not people surviving random shit, it's characters surviving such situations because their existence is what the story is about.
It's a combination of a character that is obviously not going to die (being for example the lead of the whole show) and a situation where their survival is extremely unlikely. Stannis didn't die, but he could have and the story could have still gone on. He wasn't protected by the fact that the story was obviously about him.
That said we always have a certain degree in any story of this. Even in real life. There is always luck which is literally indistinguishable from plot armour.
That's another thing: debating plot armour in an ensemble show with such a high body count is just silly. We all have our private pet-theories about who will sit on the Iron Throne and therefore cannot die for legitimate plot reasons, but none of us knows. Given that, and given how many characters who were so central to the earlier plot are occupying a shallow grave, it's just dumb to say that Stannis clearly couldn't have died at the Blackwater.
Really the only character who is probably protected by the plot at this stage is Dany because if she dies then her whole story will be a weird tangent. As soon as she does something interesting related to claiming the throne she's not safe anymore. That isn't the same as plot armour though.
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
right
I don't know why everyone's getting so defensive about this, but it's a absolutely a thing it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
It's more when someone says "So and so has plot armor so of course they didn't die."
Except everyone essentially has plot armor right up until they don't.
Part of my profound shock and dismay when Ned was killed was my casual assumption, conditioned by years of TV convention, that he had plot armor and couldn't possibly die
But he didn't
But....
it was Sean Bean. I think he specifically picks roles without plot armour.
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
right
I don't know why everyone's getting so defensive about this, but it's a absolutely a thing it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
It's more when someone says "So and so has plot armor so of course they didn't die."
Except everyone essentially has plot armor right up until they don't.
Part of my profound shock and dismay when Ned was killed was my casual assumption, conditioned by years of TV convention, that he had plot armor and couldn't possibly die
But he didn't
But....
it was Sean Bean. I think he specifically picks roles without plot armour.
I guess that would've ruined it. I didn't have the meta knowledge of Sean Beans death curse so I certainly didn't see the execution coming.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
I always wonder how different I would feel, for better or worse, about GoT if I hadn't had basically...every big moment so far spoiled for me. Not oberyn though at least
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
I always wonder how different I would feel, for better or worse, about GoT if I hadn't had basically...every big moment so far spoiled for me. Not oberyn though at least
I had the term Red Wedding ingrained in my mind after looking up Reins of Castamere. But when I first heard it I speculated something completely different.
basically I thought the Lannisters ,personally, were gonna slaughter everyone at Robb + The Frey Girl's wedding. at the time I didn't know/think it had been called off.
I still thought it was gonna be the Lannisters after Jaime was sent off and Roose was just gonna tip them off
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DynagripBreak me a million heartsHoustonRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I always wonder how different I would feel, for better or worse, about GoT if I hadn't had basically...every big moment so far spoiled for me. Not oberyn though at least
There's some study that says having stuff 'spoilered' doesn't hurt enjoyment and can potentially increase it.
I always wonder how different I would feel, for better or worse, about GoT if I hadn't had basically...every big moment so far spoiled for me. Not oberyn though at least
There's some study that says having stuff 'spoilered' doesn't hurt enjoyment and can potentially increase it.
I always wonder how different I would feel, for better or worse, about GoT if I hadn't had basically...every big moment so far spoiled for me. Not oberyn though at least
I had the term Red Wedding ingrained in my mind after looking up Reins of Castamere. But when I first heard it I speculated something completely different.
basically I thought the Lannisters ,personally, were gonna slaughter everyone at Robb + The Frey Girl's wedding. at the time I didn't know/think it had been called off.
I still thought it was gonna be the Lannisters after Jaime was sent off and Roose was just gonna tip them off
Similar boat here.
When Robb got married, I thought he was safe because his wedding was done and the death at a wedding trope usually involves the groom and/or bride dying. Nope.
I always wonder how different I would feel, for better or worse, about GoT if I hadn't had basically...every big moment so far spoiled for me. Not oberyn though at least
There's some study that says having stuff 'spoilered' doesn't hurt enjoyment and can potentially increase it.
I always wonder how different I would feel, for better or worse, about GoT if I hadn't had basically...every big moment so far spoiled for me. Not oberyn though at least
There's some study that says having stuff 'spoilered' doesn't hurt enjoyment and can potentially increase it.
I luuuurve spoilers. Seek them out every chance I get. Actual, old-fashioned, "plot points before content released" spoilers, not "ZOMG, I've had it sitting on my DVR for a month so don't you dare talk about it in public" spoilers.
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Fleebhas all of the fleeb juiceRegistered Userregular
I am just reminded of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, a battle that lasted all of 15 minutes but saw the generals for both of the armies dead by the end of it.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
right
I don't know why everyone's getting so defensive about this, but it's a absolutely a thing it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
It's more when someone says "So and so has plot armor so of course they didn't die."
Except everyone essentially has plot armor right up until they don't.
Part of my profound shock and dismay when Ned was killed was my casual assumption, conditioned by years of TV convention, that he had plot armor and couldn't possibly die
But he didn't
But....
it was Sean Bean. I think he specifically picks roles without plot armour.
Exactly. I think he has some kind of record for on-screen deaths.
Stannis leading his men into battle was more to draw contrast between him and Joffrey, to show who was truly capable and interested in ruling and had the capability to back it up. It's not just "good television."
Stannis leading his men into battle was more to draw contrast between him and Joffrey, to show who was truly capable and interested in ruling and had the capability to back it up. It's not just "good television."
I would say that doing that to draw a larger contrast between him and Joffrey is good television, as in, its good storytelling.
I am not sure what you mean by "not just good television"
Stannis leading his men into battle was more to draw contrast between him and Joffrey, to show who was truly capable and interested in ruling and had the capability to back it up. It's not just "good television."
I would say that doing that to draw a larger contrast between him and Joffrey is good television, as in, its good storytelling.
I am not sure what you mean by "not just good television"
Oh, I was calling back to the plot armor thing (didn't realize the thread had moved on so much) in terms of both the thought that "if he had been in the vanguard with his helmet off he totally would have died" and "he was up there because he's a character we know and he had his helmet off so we could tell who he is."
The secondary statement isn't inaccurate, but it's ignoring the contrast which they were trying to make.
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I mean I guess you could say that it's plot armor that caused him to be surrounded by soldier that protected him that entire time, He charged the wall and had men shielding his head from the rocks being thrown down and men around him when he climbed and fought on top of the wall (they were the ones that carried him away). It's not like he was in a one on one duel with some far superior warrior (such as Jaime, The Hound, The Mountain, the Martyll guy whose name I forget) or some other situation that should have been instant death. That's what I would consider plot armor, not a King being surrounded by his men, because that would just seem reasonable.
I don't know, I just think that calling plot armor on a show where main characters frequently die is a bit of a stretch.
Hey Jorah whatcha been up to? Oh I see, helping out the lady with dragons who wants to come burninate our countrysides eh? Seems legit
I absolutely loved his little drill sergent moment with the archers:
"Nock arrows!"
*A few archers fire prematurely*
"DOES NOCK MEAN DRAW?"
"No lord commander!"
"DOES DRAW MEAN LOOSE?"
"No lord commander!"
"DOES ANYBODY PLAN ON DYING TODAY?"
"No lord commander!"
"GOOD! I'M VERY GLAD TO HEAR IT! LOOSE!"
You're right, Tormund didn't die so the show clearly keeps characters with screen time ali- Oh wait Ygritte died and she was way bigger than Tormund ever was. Or did you mean Janos, Thorne or Gilly as major characters? Maybe plot armor is just a way to say "This character died and this didn't because it makes dramatical sense"? Then everyone in everything has plot armor.
Look I don't think anyone doesn't understand that the main characters of a story probably aren't going to drop like flies from influensa mid development. But with that broad a stroke that means Robb had plot armor in S1. And then he didn't. I can only extrapolate that freaking half the supporting cast also has plot armor until they don't, since mid season there are a lot of characters that aren't just gonna die to falling rocks because their involvement with the main cast/story has been initiated but not really cashed in on yet.
There was zero chance that Robb would die the week after he went to war for his dad. There's also zero chance that Pod dies when he follows Brienne out. There was no way Melisandre would die to poisoning, or some kind of ambush at Storms End. I guess there's a lot of plot armor to go around, I'm just not sure what the term denotes. I mean I'm pretty sure Davos's ship won't sink in a storm on their way to Braavos because that would be nonsensical, plot armor! Those kinds of voyages are pretty dangerous after all...
This is a show where Arya could lose her hand next week. She could also be thrown in a dungeon and left to rot for a season. I don't think she will die, but going all "Well Jaime's protected! What's the point of him being protected and taken to kings landing otherwise??" just doesn't say very much.
Edit: I hear you but I'm not sure why the Mormonts would take Jorah in "because the war has left them depleted". Jorah is one dude. The Mormonts presumably already have leadership. What do they gain from taking in a criminal as their leader?
And Stannis could never ever ever take Jorah in. Stannis doesn't grant pardons, period. Look to Onion knight for answers.
Stannis is the only one I could see taking him in, but I don't think Jorah would be up for that. Considering how devoted Jorah is , I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to help her from the shadows/sidelines despite her "banishing" him.
*I say Stannis because he may be desperate for ANY men.
But I mean, this is fiction, things are set up to make a good, interesting story first and foremost. It isn't meant to mimic real life 1 to 1. I mean, what, do we want the show writers/GRRM to roll dice every time a volley of arrows was released and randomly determine which characters dies and whoops guess he hit an important character he still had plans for gotta re-write most of the book now. Of course not!
So we have Stannis leading the charge on the black water with no helmet on because that is good television. You can call it plot armor, and you wouldn't be wrong, I guess, but, it is essentially a necessary evil.
If they had given Stannis more airtime/side characters , the could have potentially had another character take his place. But yeah not enough airtime to do that, so they had to go with Stannis. Or else it would be : Be invested in nameless handsome soldier #5
*stabs*
TV Tropes sends its regards
right
I don't know why everyone's getting so defensive about this, but it's a absolutely a thing it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
Slavery has been outlawed in Westeros for thousands of years, even back in the days before the Targaryens arrived. The disdain for slavery as a custom is probably as strong as the custom for guest rights, and we all saw how Mormont reacted when his men attacked Craster.
I'm pretty sure that if the daughter is anything like the father, she wouldn't exactly welcome Jorah back with open arms for disgracing the family, breaking the law, and then fleeing the just punishment.
I think mentally people equate plot armor as bad writing, and thus pointing out plot armor is an accusation of bad writing.
When really only poorly written plot armor is bad writing.
It wasn't that crazy though, I mean he didn't wade into enemies like a LOTR movie, and surviving retreats is a thing. My comment at the start was just that his survival didn't really have any explanation or scene time at all while a lot of the moments where main characters could have died had clear stated reasons why they didn't.
Also I agree, we can do better than talk about plot armor. Though last episode was just 50 minutes of awesome fighting, there's not really a lot to comment on or speculate about.
It's more when someone says "So and so has plot armor so of course they didn't die."
Except everyone essentially has plot armor right up until they don't.
Part of my profound shock and dismay when Ned was killed was my casual assumption, conditioned by years of TV convention, that he had plot armor and couldn't possibly die
But he didn't
NNID: Hakkekage
He left the family valarian sword behind after dishonoring them. So that further enforces your point.
I'm kinda curious if I would have been shocked or not. Like when someone mentioned the series I immediately knew it as the one where the main dude gets offed in the first book, because so many people were talking about it.
I'm curious because there is also the meta knowledge that a star like Sean Bean might not want to make a long term commitment. I'm certain I would have been surprised if it was a lesser known actor- that is if I hadn't known.
IF that makes sense
How many people outside the small council even know that?
Leading the charge was a thing that ancient leaders often did, based on circumstances or temperament. Alexander the Great was crazy like that. Caesar occasionally joined the battle (though I don't think the charge) when he felt the troops at that part of the line needed a boost, that that their glorious leader was in it with them. Stannis would have known that his troops were already scared as fuck that they'd lost half their friends, and could use some leadership by example.
Most battle casualties in those times weren't even suffered in the pitched battle stage. In a battle of tens of thousands per side, the victors lost only a few hundred or a few thousand, and the losers lost tens of thousands: the winners lost their (relatively few) soldiers in the battle; the losers lost most of theirs in the rout.* So a general could on a pure numbers basis be at the front and probably not die.
Yes it was risky. But war is risk. Telling a military leader in that day and age that he couldn't charge into battle because he'd surely die, he'd spit in your face. These generals lived in a time where they had to embody warrior culture to have the respect and loyalty of their men. Leading from the front and all that. Only as the frontlines became super-duper unpredictably dangerous - meaning bullets and other projectiles - did we lose the old warrior ideal of a general leading from the front.
It's weird that we're debating plot armour over something that happened all the time.
*And no, that doesn't mean Stannis couldn't have escaped.
hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
Yeah exactly.
tbh, I wasn't totally sold on the show in season one until that happened. Then I was hooked since it was shown that anyone could die at any time.
The near absence of plot armor is why I like this series.
Well it's not really plot armour so much as the show and the narrative not fully clicking on a realistic level. Plot armour is not people surviving random shit, it's characters surviving such situations because their existence is what the story is about.
It's a combination of a character that is obviously not going to die (being for example the lead of the whole show) and a situation where their survival is extremely unlikely. Stannis didn't die, but he could have and the story could have still gone on. He wasn't protected by the fact that the story was obviously about him.
That said we always have a certain degree in any story of this. Even in real life. There is always luck which is literally indistinguishable from plot armour.
That's another thing: debating plot armour in an ensemble show with such a high body count is just silly. We all have our private pet-theories about who will sit on the Iron Throne and therefore cannot die for legitimate plot reasons, but none of us knows. Given that, and given how many characters who were so central to the earlier plot are occupying a shallow grave, it's just dumb to say that Stannis clearly couldn't have died at the Blackwater.
Really the only character who is probably protected by the plot at this stage is Dany because if she dies then her whole story will be a weird tangent. As soon as she does something interesting related to claiming the throne she's not safe anymore. That isn't the same as plot armour though.
hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
But....
it was Sean Bean. I think he specifically picks roles without plot armour.
I guess that would've ruined it. I didn't have the meta knowledge of Sean Beans death curse so I certainly didn't see the execution coming.
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
I had the term Red Wedding ingrained in my mind after looking up Reins of Castamere. But when I first heard it I speculated something completely different.
I still thought it was gonna be the Lannisters after Jaime was sent off and Roose was just gonna tip them off
http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/
That's definitely true for me.
However, studies also say that watching tragedy and depressing subject matter typically makes people feel happier. That definitely isn't true for me.
My conclusion is that everyone is different, and that both spoiler loving and spoiler hating people exist in the world.
Similar boat here.
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um, excuse me, a study involving a few college kids is definitive, case closed.
I luuuurve spoilers. Seek them out every chance I get. Actual, old-fashioned, "plot points before content released" spoilers, not "ZOMG, I've had it sitting on my DVR for a month so don't you dare talk about it in public" spoilers.
Exactly. I think he has some kind of record for on-screen deaths.
The Sean Bean Death Reel
http://i.imgur.com/EbbS1rk.gif
I would say that doing that to draw a larger contrast between him and Joffrey is good television, as in, its good storytelling.
I am not sure what you mean by "not just good television"
Oh, I was calling back to the plot armor thing (didn't realize the thread had moved on so much) in terms of both the thought that "if he had been in the vanguard with his helmet off he totally would have died" and "he was up there because he's a character we know and he had his helmet off so we could tell who he is."
The secondary statement isn't inaccurate, but it's ignoring the contrast which they were trying to make.