tyrannus, thanks for posting that vid. it made some good points, namely, that marketing usually appeals to the lowest common denominator.
marketer bob: we need to sell as many copies as possible. that means we want to appeal to as broad an audience as possible.
marketer steve: uh, well, we've got the teenage boy segment, the teenage girl segment, the adult male segment, and the adult female segment.
marketer bob: pfft, you can write off the females entirely. EVERYONE knows they don't play OUR games. what do you think this is, nintendo?
marketer steve: uh, so that leaves the adult and teenage males. our game has both great action and a mature, well-written plot.
marketer bob: naw, no 14 year old wants a well-written plot. look, we need to find some common ground here. what does a 14 year old boy share with a 27 year old man?
marketer steve: uh....a penis?
marketer bob: Ed Zachary.
so the games that have obvious sex appeal or violence are hugely marketed, but those games that have neither are a CONUNDRUM to marketing teams. seriously. they can't figure out how to sell them, so they don't bother. that's how we get situations like okami, beyond good and evil, etc.
curly haired boy on
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
The sexualization of video game characters is hardly limited to the girls alone
In the latest Prince of Persia, you had the super hot sidekick Elika
But your character was the prince
Who is about as equally representative of the physical ideal
But then it doesn't even matter because both characters were amazingly well written and they were both really cool and and and Nuzak you're dumb for hating this game.
The sexualization of video game characters is hardly limited to the girls alone
In the latest Prince of Persia, you had the super hot sidekick Elika
But your character was the prince
Who is about as equally representative of the physical ideal
But then it doesn't even matter because both characters were amazingly well written and they were both really cool and and and Nuzak you're dumb for hating this game.
The wall-crawling Pac Man segments blow. Also, by the time I realised I was choosing new upgrades inefficiently, the white things got even further spread out. (You need unlocked areas to be adjacent.)
My save fucking up was the last straw. I traded it and will not try again.
The sexualization of video game characters is hardly limited to the girls alone
In the latest Prince of Persia, you had the super hot sidekick Elika
But your character was the prince
Who is about as equally representative of the physical ideal
But then it doesn't even matter because both characters were amazingly well written and they were both really cool and and and Nuzak you're dumb for hating this game.
The wall-crawling Pac Man segments blow. Also, by the time I realised I was choosing new upgrades inefficiently, the white things got even further spread out. (You need unlocked areas to be adjacent.)
My save fucking up was the last straw. I traded it and will not try again.
No you didn't. I'm not even sure the game would be possible with certain power configs if that was the case.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
The new PoP has problems that are nothing to do with the writing. I got bored after about 3 hours :x
How could they have taken one of the best combat systems in 3rd person gaming and turned it into that NUUUUUUUUUU
BUT ANYWAY
Girls, yes, they are good when they are playing vidya games.
The sexualization of video game characters is hardly limited to the girls alone
In the latest Prince of Persia, you had the super hot sidekick Elika
But your character was the prince
Who is about as equally representative of the physical ideal
But then it doesn't even matter because both characters were amazingly well written and they were both really cool and and and Nuzak you're dumb for hating this game.
The wall-crawling Pac Man segments blow. Also, by the time I realised I was choosing new upgrades inefficiently, the white things got even further spread out. (You need unlocked areas to be adjacent.)
My save fucking up was the last straw. I traded it and will not try again.
No you didn't. I'm not even sure the game would be possible with certain power configs if that was the case.
Not that you need it, but it's really fucking annoying if they're not adjacent.
In video games, all characters, regardless of gender, are uber-beings. Chris Redfield has muscles bigger than his head and Lara Croft does insane acrobatics with 36DDs. There are exceptions, of course.
MGS4 was a mixed bag in this regard. Meryl was pretty well-represented but Naomi just made me cringe. No bra and shirt half-open. That's way too fan servicey.
The sexualization of video game characters is hardly limited to the girls alone
In the latest Prince of Persia, you had the super hot sidekick Elika
But your character was the prince
Who is about as equally representative of the physical ideal
But then it doesn't even matter because both characters were amazingly well written and they were both really cool and and and Nuzak you're dumb for hating this game.
The wall-crawling Pac Man segments blow. Also, by the time I realised I was choosing new upgrades inefficiently, the white things got even further spread out. (You need unlocked areas to be adjacent.)
My save fucking up was the last straw. I traded it and will not try again.
The fuck is a Pac Man segment? You can't pick them inefficiently. Like. You literally can't. You can either go for an entire zone at a time or go for two starter zones and then entire areas. And of course they need to be adjacent, you walk to them from other areas.
edit: Wait by Pac Man do you mean collecting light seeds? That part was great if you're not some kind of guy that needs to rush through games and enjoys seeing the game's world. It was fucking great.
But anyway, comic books aren't really an accepted form of art outside of nerds, so pointing out that they have very naked and sexy WINKY ladies doesn't really say much. That kind of stuff is seen as tasteless by normal people and people really need to stop putting it in games if they ever want the medium to be taken seriously. Which, I guess, it kind of has but then the modding community is really bad. It doesn't matter which game, there's going to be a nude mod.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
Lara Croft does insane acrobatics with 36DDs
To be fair they're shrinking all the time. In legend all the female characters have the same model (which is wasp-waisted and busty), in anniversary they're a step down, and in underworld she's still busty but much more in proportion.
To be fair they're shrinking all the time. In legend all the female characters have the same model (which is wasp-waisted and busty), in anniversary they're a step down, and in underworld she's still busty but much more in proportion.
The Super Quasi-Legal Fun Time Photos that got leaked show an entirely believable person
hey, i actually liked prince of persia's gameplay a lot, but i don't think the prince and elika's interactions were that great. mostly because they just stood there in the same position when they talked. nothing wrong with the dialog, but they only had ONE ANIMATION for talking. when there are only two people in the world, you need more variety, guys.
also, still pissed about epilogue DLC being denied to PC players, but that's a different matter.
now, let's get back on topic.
curly haired boy on
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
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KorKnown to detonate from time to timeRegistered Userregular
Apparently I hit the jackpot, because my wife fits every description this guy wants to see girl gamers evolve into.
When I met her, she played SNES games like LttP and Mario Allstars, as well as PS1 games like Spyro and Tomb Raider.
We played WoW together for 2 years. We regularly play Halo 3 together in matchmaking (and she's not holding a handicap from her boobs, either). She has played Mass Effect and Fable II, and even has Dragon Age Preordered (all games that I have no interest in).
She bought an Xbox for herself, of which she only ever bought like 4 games for it. JSRF and DOA-Beach Volley Ball were her games.
My wife likes to look at pretty things. She can stand playing as male characters, if the game itself holds enough charm, but give her a game where she can choose, and it will almost always be a female avatar. What's interesting is I have seen her totally shun a game because all the female avatars looked like they were victims of down-syndrome.
Now, while doing this, she absolutely hates women that use videogames for sources of attention. If we ever see a girl in Halo's matchmaking with a gamertag like "Beaten by a girl" or something along those line, it drives her nuts. She sees those girls as attention whores. Because it's not good enough that a girl can hold her own (usually she can't) but the girl has to publicly announce that she owns a vagina, so that she might get special treatment, or friend requests, or whatever.
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
If they decide to reboot the franchise again
It's not a reboot. It's a mistranslation from the german - they were talking about how they were going to reinvent her origin story (which hasn't been touched on so far in the crystal dynamics continuity).
Yeah but that video had a looot of poorly thought out quasi-feminist stuff, that you could really argue was rooted in paternalism.
He discusses scifi as an inherently masculine genre. He theorizes that including minorities and women will provide unique game design settings (oh look, the Indian man has an idea!). He discusses the sexualized female characters you see on box art, and fails to mention the equally comic-book quality males that are often seen beside them. Someone brought up RE:5... the male was a worse physical stereotype then the woman.
His views are rooted in the idea that brown people and girls somehow think differently in some way then us white male folk. That's the incredibly dangerous overcompensation to post-colonial patriarchy that ends up going full circle. Women and Brown people are different then us in some way. They aren't. They're all people.
EDIT obv. this was @ Kor
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
Women and Brown people are different then us in some way. They aren't. They're all people.
I think even somebody who is actively against gender essentialism would agree that given the way our culture is at the moment, there are certain pressures on women to think a certain way. And consequently, even though the raw material may not be different, women do think differently than men.
Edit: Because we can, a posteori, observe that there are distinct differences in consumption patterns between men and women.
Yeah but that video had a looot of poorly thought out quasi-feminist stuff, that you could really argue was rooted in paternalism.
He discusses scifi as an inherently masculine genre. He theorizes that including minorities and women will provide unique game design settings (oh look, the Indian man has an idea!). He discusses the sexualized female characters you see on box art, and fails to mention the equally comic-book quality males that are often seen beside them. Someone brought up RE:5... the male was a worse physical stereotype then the woman.
His views are rooted in the idea that brown people and girls somehow think differently in some way then us white male folk. That's the incredibly dangerous overcompensation to post-colonial patriarchy that ends up going full circle. Women and Brown people are different then us in some way. They aren't. They're all people.
EDIT obv. this was @ Kor
Oh certainly, we're on the same page here. I'm just using a simple example to combat his theory, while you're just dissecting his ideas itself.
I suppose I should have included a bit more of a summary or point in my first post there.
I'm of the opinion that there is no single tactic or plan that anyone person or group could do, to pull the female audience into gaming in the same way that males are here. I believe we will reach that point in the future eventually, but it will be a slow gradual process. I also believe that most of the attempts to bring about a larger female audience as actually doing more harm than good.
And now we get into the classic question of what constitutes culture and society, and how such a regionally diverse thing can possibly be defined etc
Indeedy. For example, his observations probably don't apply as strongly in Japan as they do in the US.
But I don't think his conclusion (that marketing games specifically to women was not necessarily the way to go) is a bad one.
Other then gender-specific advertising for entertainment being pretty much the only thing outside of rape that will unite every third-wave feminist against you, in practical terms it's a pretty good idea.
But yeah, the gaming industry could learn a lot from the post-feminist group. Archetypes are easy to write for, but really speak to nobody. And reversing the usual gender roles will 99% of the time come across as a transparent attempt to Be Progressive!
It is an incredibly difficult problem to approach.
I guess what I'm saying is the video presents second-wave feminist views and all the failings therof, and isn't fundamentally based on the concept of women as people.
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KorKnown to detonate from time to timeRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
If anyone is on a FFXIII blackout, then don't read this.
I'm actually very intrigued to see FFXIII because of this. A female lead that (as far as we know) doesn't have some guy she's pining over the whole game, but in fact, is there to work with her future brother in law, to save her sister.
In video games, all characters, regardless of gender, are uber-beings. Chris Redfield has muscles bigger than his head and Lara Croft does insane acrobatics with 36DDs. There are exceptions, of course.
MGS4 was a mixed bag in this regard. Meryl was pretty well-represented but Naomi just made me cringe. No bra and shirt half-open. That's way too fan servicey.
Nuffin wrong with Mei-Ling though.
She actually has MORE clothing in MGS4. She wears *gasp* PANTS.
And may I say, her Engrish accent in the first game was actually something that attracted me to her character. It gave her a really cute charm, afterall, she was depicted as something of a child genius who invented the Soloton radar at age 20 or so. She just sounded so darn concerned for Snake. It was hard to hear her shouting and screaming Snake frantically and not feel *something*.
Yeah, Mei Ling wasn't sexualized. Though the camera did zoom in on her butt when she was on all fours in the Act V briefing and at one point Johnny actually tried to grab her ass.
In video games, all characters, regardless of gender, are uber-beings. Chris Redfield has muscles bigger than his head and Lara Croft does insane acrobatics with 36DDs. There are exceptions, of course.
MGS4 was a mixed bag in this regard. Meryl was pretty well-represented but Naomi just made me cringe. No bra and shirt half-open. That's way too fan servicey.
Nuffin wrong with Mei-Ling though.
She actually has MORE clothing in MGS4. She wears *gasp* PANTS.
And may I say, her Engrish accent in the first game was actually something that attracted me to her character. It gave her a really cute charm, afterall, she was depicted as something of a child genius who invented the Soloton radar at age 20 or so. She just sounded so darn concerned for Snake. It was hard to hear her shouting and screaming Snake frantically and not feel *something*.
She got to O-6 at a really young age by taking it from behind, courtesy of a superior officer.
Have any (non-porn) games featured jiggle physics for men? I don't know of any, but I haven't really been paying attention...
What if, in a God of War cutscene for instance, the camera zooms in momentarily on Kratos' package, and his junk noticeably jiggles? Would it affect your enjoyment of the game at all?
Have any (non-porn) games featured jiggle physics for men? I don't know of any, but I haven't really been paying attention...
What if, in a God of War cutscene for instance, the camera zooms in momentarily on Kratos' package, and his junk noticeably jiggles? Would it affect your enjoyment of the game at all?
I don't know anyone of either gender who would find that sexy.
1-1 ratios rarely exist in this argument. The fact that men find something sexy in women doesn't generally mean that women will find the same thing sexy in men.
Have any (non-porn) games featured jiggle physics for men? I don't know of any, but I haven't really been paying attention...
What if, in a God of War cutscene for instance, the camera zooms in momentarily on Kratos' package, and his junk noticeably jiggles? Would it affect your enjoyment of the game at all?
Have any (non-porn) games featured jiggle physics for men? I don't know of any, but I haven't really been paying attention...
What if, in a God of War cutscene for instance, the camera zooms in momentarily on Kratos' package, and his junk noticeably jiggles? Would it affect your enjoyment of the game at all?
Yes, it would diminish it greatly.
I don't like this example. I wouldn't mind if Kratos had his pecs jiggling from all the running/swinging he does.
Posts
A genuine shame.
Steam: ZappRowsdower
But you also have
so the games that have obvious sex appeal or violence are hugely marketed, but those games that have neither are a CONUNDRUM to marketing teams. seriously. they can't figure out how to sell them, so they don't bother. that's how we get situations like okami, beyond good and evil, etc.
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
The wall-crawling Pac Man segments blow. Also, by the time I realised I was choosing new upgrades inefficiently, the white things got even further spread out. (You need unlocked areas to be adjacent.)
My save fucking up was the last straw. I traded it and will not try again.
No you didn't. I'm not even sure the game would be possible with certain power configs if that was the case.
How could they have taken one of the best combat systems in 3rd person gaming and turned it into that NUUUUUUUUUU
BUT ANYWAY
Girls, yes, they are good when they are playing vidya games.
Not that you need it, but it's really fucking annoying if they're not adjacent.
MGS4 was a mixed bag in this regard. Meryl was pretty well-represented but Naomi just made me cringe. No bra and shirt half-open. That's way too fan servicey.
This would be a good example to use as a 'how we're not progressing at all'.
edit: Wait by Pac Man do you mean collecting light seeds? That part was great if you're not some kind of guy that needs to rush through games and enjoys seeing the game's world. It was fucking great.
But anyway, comic books aren't really an accepted form of art outside of nerds, so pointing out that they have very naked and sexy WINKY ladies doesn't really say much. That kind of stuff is seen as tasteless by normal people and people really need to stop putting it in games if they ever want the medium to be taken seriously. Which, I guess, it kind of has but then the modding community is really bad. It doesn't matter which game, there's going to be a nude mod.
To be fair they're shrinking all the time. In legend all the female characters have the same model (which is wasp-waisted and busty), in anniversary they're a step down, and in underworld she's still busty but much more in proportion.
We celebrated actually good mods that improved the combat, animations, etc
But then we went back to hurf durf sex plz
The Super Quasi-Legal Fun Time Photos that got leaked show an entirely believable person
If they decide to reboot the franchise again
also, still pissed about epilogue DLC being denied to PC players, but that's a different matter.
now, let's get back on topic.
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
And now, it's time to play, name that anecdote!
Apparently I hit the jackpot, because my wife fits every description this guy wants to see girl gamers evolve into.
When I met her, she played SNES games like LttP and Mario Allstars, as well as PS1 games like Spyro and Tomb Raider.
We played WoW together for 2 years. We regularly play Halo 3 together in matchmaking (and she's not holding a handicap from her boobs, either). She has played Mass Effect and Fable II, and even has Dragon Age Preordered (all games that I have no interest in).
She bought an Xbox for herself, of which she only ever bought like 4 games for it. JSRF and DOA-Beach Volley Ball were her games.
My wife likes to look at pretty things. She can stand playing as male characters, if the game itself holds enough charm, but give her a game where she can choose, and it will almost always be a female avatar. What's interesting is I have seen her totally shun a game because all the female avatars looked like they were victims of down-syndrome.
Now, while doing this, she absolutely hates women that use videogames for sources of attention. If we ever see a girl in Halo's matchmaking with a gamertag like "Beaten by a girl" or something along those line, it drives her nuts. She sees those girls as attention whores. Because it's not good enough that a girl can hold her own (usually she can't) but the girl has to publicly announce that she owns a vagina, so that she might get special treatment, or friend requests, or whatever.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
It's not a reboot. It's a mistranslation from the german - they were talking about how they were going to reinvent her origin story (which hasn't been touched on so far in the crystal dynamics continuity).
He discusses scifi as an inherently masculine genre. He theorizes that including minorities and women will provide unique game design settings (oh look, the Indian man has an idea!). He discusses the sexualized female characters you see on box art, and fails to mention the equally comic-book quality males that are often seen beside them. Someone brought up RE:5... the male was a worse physical stereotype then the woman.
His views are rooted in the idea that brown people and girls somehow think differently in some way then us white male folk. That's the incredibly dangerous overcompensation to post-colonial patriarchy that ends up going full circle. Women and Brown people are different then us in some way. They aren't. They're all people.
EDIT obv. this was @ Kor
I think even somebody who is actively against gender essentialism would agree that given the way our culture is at the moment, there are certain pressures on women to think a certain way. And consequently, even though the raw material may not be different, women do think differently than men.
Edit: Because we can, a posteori, observe that there are distinct differences in consumption patterns between men and women.
Oh certainly, we're on the same page here. I'm just using a simple example to combat his theory, while you're just dissecting his ideas itself.
I suppose I should have included a bit more of a summary or point in my first post there.
I'm of the opinion that there is no single tactic or plan that anyone person or group could do, to pull the female audience into gaming in the same way that males are here. I believe we will reach that point in the future eventually, but it will be a slow gradual process. I also believe that most of the attempts to bring about a larger female audience as actually doing more harm than good.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
Indeedy. For example, his observations probably don't apply as strongly in Japan as they do in the US.
But I don't think his conclusion (that marketing games specifically to women was not necessarily the way to go) is a bad one.
Other then gender-specific advertising for entertainment being pretty much the only thing outside of rape that will unite every third-wave feminist against you, in practical terms it's a pretty good idea.
But yeah, the gaming industry could learn a lot from the post-feminist group. Archetypes are easy to write for, but really speak to nobody. And reversing the usual gender roles will 99% of the time come across as a transparent attempt to Be Progressive!
It is an incredibly difficult problem to approach.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
Nuffin wrong with Mei-Ling though.
She actually has MORE clothing in MGS4. She wears *gasp* PANTS.
And may I say, her Engrish accent in the first game was actually something that attracted me to her character. It gave her a really cute charm, afterall, she was depicted as something of a child genius who invented the Soloton radar at age 20 or so. She just sounded so darn concerned for Snake. It was hard to hear her shouting and screaming Snake frantically and not feel *something*.
She got to O-6 at a really young age by taking it from behind, courtesy of a superior officer.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
It was never gonna end well really.
It's guys talking about a girl they're attracted to.
The same thing happens when girls talk about a guy in a movie or game (lol) they find hot
FLIPPY_D WHAT HAVE YOU WROUGHT
and the rest of the thread is about whether that's true or not.
and if untrue, why?
it's the examples that get us into trouble. :P
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
What if, in a God of War cutscene for instance, the camera zooms in momentarily on Kratos' package, and his junk noticeably jiggles? Would it affect your enjoyment of the game at all?
I don't know anyone of either gender who would find that sexy.
1-1 ratios rarely exist in this argument. The fact that men find something sexy in women doesn't generally mean that women will find the same thing sexy in men.
I don't like this example. I wouldn't mind if Kratos had his pecs jiggling from all the running/swinging he does.