I've had people ragequit heroics because rankwatch was lighting up like a christmas tree on them. I may change it from tells to reporting in party chat - waaaaay to much fun for trolling.
My point is that people were explaining, two months ago, why the idea was stupid from the start. And now, finally, they're like, "oh, hey you guys were right all along."
So they put in limited attempts for all of, what, five weeks? To serve what purpose exactly? It was a mistake in design and the availability of heroic modes this week meant it was do-or-die time for them to cave to the negative player reaction.
If I'm not mistaken, they put in limited attempts so that guilds who had the members willing to raid for 36 hours straight couldn't just brute force their way through.
How many guilds are there like this that actually had problems getting the bosses down, though? No, really? Every guild I know of that wasn't downing everything in a new wing the night it was released is of the "we raid 2 or 3 nights a week" sort of semi-casual guild that wasn't going to spend 50 times wiping to Putricide in a week in the first place. And the guilds with membership that's hardcore enough to raid for 36 hours a week (let alone straight) also had the competence and devotion to do things like play and clear the encounters on 10-man before doing it on 25 and weren't really cockblocked by the cap in the first place.
The rest of your post seemed to be confusing the concept of limited attempts with gating, which we're not discussing here, so there's really not much to reply to there.
I think the issue is that limited attempts isn't terribly effective, because anyone who raids enough and should be affected, just works around it. It's basically like why bother?
It's not like "upper echelon" people are doing anything different than what they did in ToGC25.
How many guilds are there like this that actually had problems getting the bosses down, though? No, really? Every guild I know of that wasn't downing everything in a new wing the night it was released is of the "we raid 2 or 3 nights a week" sort of semi-casual guild that wasn't going to spend 50 times wiping to Putricide in a week in the first place.
Point of order; am I mistaken, or wasn't the original limit only 10 or 20 attempts, and some bosses shared attempts across them? Given that on my old crew we'd put in dozens of attempts a night learning a boss, I imagine that even 50 would've been reachable while finding our stride.
And the guilds with membership that's hardcore enough to raid for 36 hours a week (let alone straight) also had the competence and devotion to do things like play and clear the encounters on 10-man before doing it on 25 and weren't really cockblocked by the cap in the first place.
And thus a downside to parallel 10 and 25 man content is perhaps found, at least with this style of artificial content blocking.
The rest of your post seemed to be confusing the concept of limited attempts with gating, which we're not discussing here, so there's really not much to reply to there.
Now you're just being a silly goose. My post had almost nothing to do with gating other than the very end, so kindly stop putting words in my mouth. I only noted the gating at the end of my post based on it being related to the similarities with how they've released some WLK content with how they released TBC content, which I have vastly more experience with as a progression raider.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Point of order; am I mistaken, or wasn't the original limit only 10 or 20 attempts, and some bosses shared attempts across them? Given that on my old crew we'd put in dozens of attempts a night learning a boss, I imagine that even 50 would've been reachable while finding our stride.
It was 10 attempts for Putricide only for two weeks. Then it was 15 attempts for Putricide and Blood Queen for two weeks (by which point any competent guild that would even be close to capable of the "world first" race you mentioned in your post would already have Putricide more or less on farm). Then it was 20 attempts for Putricide, Blood Queen, Sindragosa, and Arthas. And all the various "firsts" came from the same guilds that were getting "firsts" on content regardless of attempt limits (so there goes the "omg world firsts" argument).
And thus a downside to parallel 10 and 25 man content is perhaps found, at least with this style of artificial content blocking.
It's not really a downside, though. That it can be used to aid in circumventing a design decision that was dumb from the start doesn't count against it.
I only noted the gating at the end of my post based on it being related to the similarities with how they've released some WLK content with how they released TBC content, which I have vastly more experience with as a progression raider.
Why mention gating at all? It's a completely separate mechanic from limited attempts, and it's something I take no issues with (I'm sure the same can be said of many who disagree with the normal mode attempt limit).
I dunno Forty, I don't think they have done an about face on it at all
This pretty much follows the posts they made a few months ago
I really don't understand what the problem with having a limited number of attempts on 10/25 normal is anyway. Ten attempts is still enough to learn a fight and get it down if you come prepared (alt raid for world first types, tankspot video/forum conversations for the months behinders), it just means you can't slam your head into the wall until you find something that works purely by accident
My point is that people were explaining, two months ago, why the idea was stupid from the start. And now, finally, they're like, "oh, hey you guys were right all along."
But the needed to try and see it. Blizzard learns slowly but steadily. Here is what they tried to do I think. Spoilered for length.
THE ARGUMENT: “My guild is better than “X” guild. We pull better numbers on fights then them. They are just further progressed than my guild cuz they raid 50 hours a week and mine only does 30 hours. Were better than them”-Cry baby raiding player
And this is how it happened. (very roughly)
Sarth 3-D became viewed as guild progression and Bliz agreed with it.
Ulduar came out with Hard modes that are viewed as guild progression. Several top end guilds try to do every boss on Hard mode without clearing the instance first. These guilds were able to do it by smashing their head into the wall enough times to get the kill. Meanwhile other top end guilds killed Yogg and were done for the week.
Results of Ulduar in Bliz’s eyes. (I am just guessing here)
1. Need to limit attempts in raids to stop guilds with 80 hours a week to raid and wipe.
2. Separate the regular and hard modes, so after you clear the zone you have something to do.
ToC The results of Ulduar shown. Hardcore guilds worked around the limitations to kill Anub heroic 25 with 50 attempts. (i.e faction change, and server transfer)
Results of ToCG in Bliz’s eyes. (I am just guessing here)
1. Too many attempts
2. Remove immortal achievements
3. Too many modes to do the instance in.
ICC is just the result of ToC. Where Bliz fucked up on was that ToC was so quick and easy that alt runs became far to common. Not to say that OMG hardcore guilds didn’t have alt runs before, just that a lot more raiding guilds did alt runs.
Results of ICC in Bliz’s eyes. (I am just guessing here)
1. If you limit attempts make heroic mode available off the start.
2. Must clear regular mode first, don’t limit attempts.
3. There is nothing we can do to address the argument, except limit the time people can be logged in WoW.
Forty, I think you think the limited attempts thing is targeted for the cream of the crop guilds. It isn't, it's targeted for the people just below them who are pushing the cutting edge but still have a chance to run out of attempts each week because they succeed more on luck than skill. It's basically a method to widen first place from the runners up via bonus points awarded for awareness, teamwork, skill, and the ability to execute a strategy so the people who pull through feel better about themselves.
The issue with ICC is that the limited attempt bosses ended up being tougher than Blizz probably expected (they did have only one or two tests on the PTR for each) so the limited attempts ended up stopping many more raids than they wanted. So now that the top guilds have already gotten their pats on the head, they can safely remove the limits from normal without needing to worry about opening the floodgates to the Lich King.
What if the limited attempts were a shot at seperating the wheat from the chaff so they could better do a proper "beta test" on the live realms? We already know they had GM's watching Lich King attempts; by slowing the progress of guilds not just by gating but by limited attempts (thus allowing guilds that struggled to fall behind in terms of gear if nothing else by missing out on kills), they minimized the number of people who saw the Lich King at once, allowing them a better chance to observe/parse what's happening in actual "live fire" exercises, rectify it (with punishment if necessary in the case of exploits, not to start that debate, just pointing out that it did happen) and then let the floodgates open to everyone else?
Not to say that they intended to manipulate or abuse the luckiest/hardest of hardcore, but it seems possible, and having a trickle of people hit the final (and mostly untested, at least by the public at large) content before you had larger swathes of people hitting him and potentially slamming their faces into a brickwall that, due to whatever circumstances, might not actually be tuned correctly (obviously some things weren't accounted for in internal testing).
I'm not trying to be an appologist or suck up to the idea of how super duper awesome limited attempts were, I guess I'm just trying to work from the premise that Blizzard has used them a few times now, seems to be happy with the concept at least in general, so what would be the factors wherein this would look like a good idea, rather than assuming that they're just blathering idiots that hate their player base (which I'm not willing to ignore as a possibility either).
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I dunno Forty, I don't think they have done an about face on it at all
This pretty much follows the posts they made a few months ago
I really don't understand what the problem with having a limited number of attempts on 10/25 normal is anyway. Ten attempts is still enough to learn a fight and get it down if you come prepared (alt raid for world first types, tankspot video/forum conversations for the months behinders), it just means you can't slam your head into the wall until you find something that works purely by accident
Because it's arbitrary and doesn't accomplish anything useful.
You can't set a number that is, all at the same time: not overly punitive for an "average" guild; a way to truly measure "skill" vs. time for world/region/etc. firsts; low enough to satisfy the players who want a game-mechanic-based excuse to stop raiding after a certain amount of time; can't be circumvented by alt raids.
There are things that arguably make sense to limit regardless of play time. Gear obtainment rates -- accomplished through raid lock-outs -- are a good example. Experience is not.
What if the limited attempts were a shot at seperating the wheat from the chaff so they could better do a proper "beta test" on the live realms? We already know they had GM's watching Lich King attempts; by slowing the progress of guilds not just by gating but by limited attempts (thus allowing guilds that struggled to fall behind in terms of gear if nothing else by missing out on kills), they minimized the number of people who saw the Lich King at once, allowing them a better chance to observe/parse what's happening in actual "live fire" exercises, rectify it (with punishment if necessary in the case of exploits, not to start that debate, just pointing out that it did happen) and then let the floodgates open to everyone else?
Not to say that they intended to manipulate or abuse the luckiest/hardest of hardcore, but it seems possible, and having a trickle of people hit the final (and mostly untested, at least by the public at large) content before you had larger swathes of people hitting him and potentially slamming their faces into a brickwall that, due to whatever circumstances, might not actually be tuned correctly (obviously some things weren't accounted for in internal testing).
I'm not trying to be an appologist or suck up to the idea of how super duper awesome limited attempts were, I guess I'm just trying to work from the premise that Blizzard has used them a few times now, seems to be happy with the concept at least in general, so what would be the factors wherein this would look like a good idea, rather than assuming that they're just blathering idiots that hate their player base (which I'm not willing to ignore as a possibility either).
Except that, from the start, they had planned to keep the limited attempts in normal. They explained how attempts would be shared on the wing bosses whether you attempted them on normal or heroic, and how running out of attempts on heroic would mean you were done with ICC for the week, even on normal. If the limited attempts for normal were planned only to last five weeks, then they should have said so.
Except that, from the start, they had planned to keep the limited attempts in normal. They explained how attempts would be shared on the wing bosses whether you attempted them on normal or heroic, and how running out of attempts on heroic would mean you were done with ICC for the week, even on normal. If the limited attempts for normal were planned only to last five weeks, then they should have said so.
Do you have a link to this declaration?
I'm not trying to an asshole, but it seems there was an ICC memo that I didn't get, and I"m curious to read about what they stated/intended, and what we actually got.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I don't have links to shit while I'm at work. This was all announced in early-to-mid December.
The original plan was also to start off with a measly 5 attempts when the Plague wing was released, increasing it by 5 each for the following wings. Then right before the Plague wing was opened in the beginning of January they decided to change it to 10.
Except that, from the start, they had planned to keep the limited attempts in normal. They explained how attempts would be shared on the wing bosses whether you attempted them on normal or heroic, and how running out of attempts on heroic would mean you were done with ICC for the week, even on normal. If the limited attempts for normal were planned only to last five weeks, then they should have said so.
Do you have a link to this declaration?
I'm not trying to an asshole, but it seems there was an ICC memo that I didn't get, and I"m curious to read about what they stated/intended, and what we actually got.
As when I first read it, I still don't see anything indicating their intent to remove the limited attempts mechanic for normal, so it seems like a change of heart to me (of course, maybe they're playing it close to their vest). If anything, they planned to add enough attempts to eventually make it mostly irrelevant.
Edit: Someone, I forget who (sorry), thought it was because it prevented some people from even trying it at all. I now think that's largely what changed Blizzard's mind.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
So, I just ran VoA twice (25 & 10). Neither time did Toravon drop T10. He dropped PvP stuff, bracers, necks, but no T10. I thought it was guaranteed he'd drop a T10 piece...?
Edit: Someone, I forget who (sorry), thought it was because it prevented some people from even trying it at all. I now think that's largely what changed Blizzard's mind.
That was me.
And yes, there's ALOT of people in groups where they wouldn't even touch those bosses.
Limited Attempts are extremely intimidating to people who aren't hardcore raiders.
And I think that's ultimately why they did away with it. There just weren't many people even trying, let alone beating, these bosses.
So, I just ran VoA twice (25 & 10). Neither time did Toravon drop T10. He dropped PvP stuff, bracers, necks, but no T10. I thought it was guaranteed he'd drop a T10 piece...?
Nope. It was like that before as I have seen the t9 guy drop all pvp gear numerous times.
So, I just ran VoA twice (25 & 10). Neither time did Toravon drop T10. He dropped PvP stuff, bracers, necks, but no T10. I thought it was guaranteed he'd drop a T10 piece...?
Vault of AIDS, bitch! Although I'm also considering renaming it to Vault of Emblems AND NOTHING ELSE.
Except that, from the start, they had planned to keep the limited attempts in normal. They explained how attempts would be shared on the wing bosses whether you attempted them on normal or heroic, and how running out of attempts on heroic would mean you were done with ICC for the week, even on normal. If the limited attempts for normal were planned only to last five weeks, then they should have said so.
Do you have a link to this declaration?
I'm not trying to an asshole, but it seems there was an ICC memo that I didn't get, and I"m curious to read about what they stated/intended, and what we actually got.
As when I first read it, I still don't see anything indicating their intent to remove the limited attempts mechanic for normal, so it seems like a change of heart to me (of course, maybe they're playing it close to their vest). If anything, they planned to add enough attempts to eventually make it mostly irrelevant.
Ah, it was even longer ago than I thought that people had the foresight to tell them it was a bad idea!
I would be quite happy if Blizzard linked 10 and 25 lockouts so you could only do one or the other. I acknowledge that this would be unpopular with the wider community and don't expect it to happen but it does solve a couple of problems. Firstly it means the 25 man guilds can't practise everything in 10 man before their 'real' raids. It also allows pure 10 man guilds (like my own) to have their own progress recognised. As it has turned out my server (Karazhan EU - by far and away one of the weaker servers) failed to clear Arthas last week on either 10 man or 25, with the race being between my guild (10 man) and another (25 man practising in 10 man content). This week with the limited tries removed the race is back on, expect perhaps they will be working on their 25 man raids leaving us to go for the 10 man kill. This has resulted in an actually quite interesting and fun scenario for me so any measures that result in this sort of thing get a thumbs up from me. As to the wider debate I do agree that whatever measures Blizzard put in the truly dedicated raid guilds will find away around the artificial progress blocks. The only way to really slow down progress is to go back to making hard bosses, which of course conflicts with their current design philosophy. A mix of Ulduar and ICC might be the best solution, as proposed above, with unlimited tries but Hardmodes only available after the instance has been fully cleared.
Indeed there are but their requirements are strict enough to exclude us. While we as a guild only raid 10 man content and have no organised 25 man raids people still do pug them for extra badges/rep etc. We also have a priest with Val'anyr (sp?) which I think discounts us as well.
I would be quite happy if Blizzard linked 10 and 25 lockouts so you could only do one or the other. I acknowledge that this would be unpopular with the wider community and don't expect it to happen but it does solve a couple of problems. Firstly it means the 25 man guilds can't practise everything in 10 man before their 'real' raids. It also allows pure 10 man guilds (like my own) to have their own progress recognised. As it has turned out my server (Karazhan EU - by far and away one of the weaker servers) failed to clear Arthas last week on either 10 man or 25, with the race being between my guild (10 man) and another (25 man practising in 10 man content). This week with the limited tries removed the race is back on, expect perhaps they will be working on their 25 man raids leaving us to go for the 10 man kill. This has resulted in an actually quite interesting and fun scenario for me so any measures that result in this sort of thing get a thumbs up from me. As to the wider debate I do agree that whatever measures Blizzard put in the truly dedicated raid guilds will find away around the artificial progress blocks. The only way to really slow down progress is to go back to making hard bosses, which of course conflicts with their current design philosophy. A mix of Ulduar and ICC might be the best solution, as proposed above, with unlimited tries but Hardmodes only available after the instance has been fully cleared.
What problems? 25 man raids add some elements to the 10 man version, that's the idea. They aren't intended to be completely different fights, but they are different enough with extra mechanics and less forgiving numbers (bosses have more health, more damage, shorter enrage timers etc). Does your guild read strats? Then that's really the same thing as 'practicing' in 10 man for the case of your argument.
You say you want a lockout to be shared but then say the fact that there is not one is causing some extra excitement on your realm.
There are hard bosses, it's called hard modes. They are there for you to attempt as you see fit. If you don't try them, that is not a issue, it's a decision.
What's the problem? A guild putting in more time is going to progress faster than ya'll on a separate level of content? I'm baffled.
We had a guildie who still had rankwatch turned on during a raid (he normally uses it for heroics). It went off in raid chat for some reason. He was then forced to turn it off because one of our resto druids decided the best way to test the addon was to spam rank 1 rejuvs on everybody.
I run it, but I keep the spamminess turned off. However, any offenses are reported to me. When I PuG, just after the final boss of the instance I have a quiet word with the culprit in whispers. It's pretty effective and saves them some embarrassment, although if they were doing it in raids I'd probably demand it gets fixed up more quickly!
Indeed there are but their requirements are strict enough to exclude us. While we as a guild only raid 10 man content and have no organised 25 man raids people still do pug them for extra badges/rep etc. We also have a priest with Val'anyr (sp?) which I think discounts us as well.
So you're not a strict 10 guild in the least bit, then.
I can't speak for any other servers, but our BQL kill last night was our server 2nd, a week behind the #1 guild. May be a factor in the attempts removal from normal.
I may regret saying it, but right now, from my point of view in a middling guild: They got ICC's level of difficulty spot-on. We didn't breeze through it like we did on ToC and Naxx, we didn't get stuck on it for weeks on end like we did back on Vashj and Kael'thas. It's difficult, but doesn't feel overwhelmingly so; it feels like we *can* get the kills we need. I don't think they particularly needed the limited attempts on top of that, but I'm sure it's appropriate for the steam-train guilds who just plough through content.
If *we* can kill it (er, save it, I guess), when we're quite a flock of geese, it can't be all that overtuned. I think what made a difference for us is the healers getting the hang of working the stack nicely; we got our eventual kill in just under six minutes.
And yes, there's ALOT of people in groups where they wouldn't even touch those bosses.
Limited Attempts are extremely intimidating to people who aren't hardcore raiders.
I don't quite get what you've got to lose? By not touching any wing-end boss, what are you saving the attempts *for*?
And I think that's ultimately why they did away with it. There just weren't many people even trying, let alone beating, these bosses.
I'm not sure the limited attempts were the only reason for that. We shied away from Putricide largely due to the perception that he was rather tougher than the other options available at the time (we weren't downing Festergut and Rotface before Blood Princes appeared) and it made sense to work on the easier content to maximise the speed at which gear was gained for the guild as a whole.
When we *did* get to a position where the logical 'next kill' was a wing-end boss, we ploughed straight into it, no problem. Didn't *kill* it, of course, but that's the aforementioned gooseness in action.
Ok, so my guild is switching to EP/GP tuesday to hopefully help with attendance issues.
But I'm kind of fuzzy on how the system actually works, and my GL kind of is too. I've read through the docs on the epgp website, but still seems really unclear to me.
So can someone give me a rundown on it?
Like, do people pay EP for items? Or just gain GP? The site never actually says.
Yeah, EP/GP is actually a pretty fair system. My guild switched to it around five months ago.
Basically you gain EP, at a rate set by the raid leader (my guild awards 250 every 15 minutes), and when you want a piece of gear you have to pay a price. This price is the amount of GP you get given to you. Your gear priority is your current EP divided by your GP. In the case of multiple raiders wanting the same piece of gear, it is given to the person with the highest priority.
However, if a piece of gear is uncontested, it's just given to that person and they are awarded the GP for the piece, thus lowering their priority for the next contested drop. Each piece of gear also has a lower price that is intended for an off spec award, if no one wants it for main spec.
I like the system, it provides a clear and impartial way to determine who will get a piece of gear.
Also, unless the person in charge of the system does an EP/GP decay, which just lowers all EP and GP numbers by 10%, you never actually lose points of either type.
So there's this silly goose in my guild who I absolutely hate. He's a former guildmate who took a break or something and they said he was all good and stuff, but he's not good. He's terrible. Does like 7000 dps on saurfang as a rogue, is a huge loot sponge, couldn't kick a boss spell if the raid depended on it, always dies to raid damage, and now tonight he just pulled the 'I lagged a bit' on blood queen after not moving with the beam on him for a good 20 seconds. I hate them so much
I haven't gotten to heroic ICC yet, don't know if we will, but some of the descriptions already make me want to cry. Coldflame on Marrogar leaves a DoT? And he keeps doing Bone Spike during Bone Storm?
Deathwhisper is untauntable in P2 and her adds continue spawning from one side.
Gunship - Loot pinata still. Two more portal adds and rocket strikes knock you back a bit.
Festergut - Putricide casts Malleable Goo from his balcony.
Rotface - Putricide casts Vile Gas (the chainable stun from Festergut) from his balcony.
Dreamwalker - AoE shadow damage in the room throughout the fight.
Blood Princes - Some shadow? penalty everytime you move. Didn't know a lot about it as I tank Keleseth and have tons of the shadow resist orbs on me. I didn't notice a change.
Blood Queen - Each vampire in the room boosts her AoE shadow aura.
Posts
Nope, seems fine.
Oooh good idea.
The rest of your post seemed to be confusing the concept of limited attempts with gating, which we're not discussing here, so there's really not much to reply to there.
Exactly. Thank you.
Point of order; am I mistaken, or wasn't the original limit only 10 or 20 attempts, and some bosses shared attempts across them? Given that on my old crew we'd put in dozens of attempts a night learning a boss, I imagine that even 50 would've been reachable while finding our stride.
And thus a downside to parallel 10 and 25 man content is perhaps found, at least with this style of artificial content blocking.
Now you're just being a silly goose. My post had almost nothing to do with gating other than the very end, so kindly stop putting words in my mouth. I only noted the gating at the end of my post based on it being related to the similarities with how they've released some WLK content with how they released TBC content, which I have vastly more experience with as a progression raider.
It's not really a downside, though. That it can be used to aid in circumventing a design decision that was dumb from the start doesn't count against it.
Why mention gating at all? It's a completely separate mechanic from limited attempts, and it's something I take no issues with (I'm sure the same can be said of many who disagree with the normal mode attempt limit).
This pretty much follows the posts they made a few months ago
I really don't understand what the problem with having a limited number of attempts on 10/25 normal is anyway. Ten attempts is still enough to learn a fight and get it down if you come prepared (alt raid for world first types, tankspot video/forum conversations for the months behinders), it just means you can't slam your head into the wall until you find something that works purely by accident
But the needed to try and see it. Blizzard learns slowly but steadily. Here is what they tried to do I think. Spoilered for length.
And this is how it happened. (very roughly)
Sarth 3-D became viewed as guild progression and Bliz agreed with it.
Ulduar came out with Hard modes that are viewed as guild progression. Several top end guilds try to do every boss on Hard mode without clearing the instance first. These guilds were able to do it by smashing their head into the wall enough times to get the kill. Meanwhile other top end guilds killed Yogg and were done for the week.
Results of Ulduar in Bliz’s eyes. (I am just guessing here)
1. Need to limit attempts in raids to stop guilds with 80 hours a week to raid and wipe.
2. Separate the regular and hard modes, so after you clear the zone you have something to do.
ToC The results of Ulduar shown. Hardcore guilds worked around the limitations to kill Anub heroic 25 with 50 attempts. (i.e faction change, and server transfer)
Results of ToCG in Bliz’s eyes. (I am just guessing here)
1. Too many attempts
2. Remove immortal achievements
3. Too many modes to do the instance in.
ICC is just the result of ToC. Where Bliz fucked up on was that ToC was so quick and easy that alt runs became far to common. Not to say that OMG hardcore guilds didn’t have alt runs before, just that a lot more raiding guilds did alt runs.
Results of ICC in Bliz’s eyes. (I am just guessing here)
1. If you limit attempts make heroic mode available off the start.
2. Must clear regular mode first, don’t limit attempts.
3. There is nothing we can do to address the argument, except limit the time people can be logged in WoW.
The issue with ICC is that the limited attempt bosses ended up being tougher than Blizz probably expected (they did have only one or two tests on the PTR for each) so the limited attempts ended up stopping many more raids than they wanted. So now that the top guilds have already gotten their pats on the head, they can safely remove the limits from normal without needing to worry about opening the floodgates to the Lich King.
What if the limited attempts were a shot at seperating the wheat from the chaff so they could better do a proper "beta test" on the live realms? We already know they had GM's watching Lich King attempts; by slowing the progress of guilds not just by gating but by limited attempts (thus allowing guilds that struggled to fall behind in terms of gear if nothing else by missing out on kills), they minimized the number of people who saw the Lich King at once, allowing them a better chance to observe/parse what's happening in actual "live fire" exercises, rectify it (with punishment if necessary in the case of exploits, not to start that debate, just pointing out that it did happen) and then let the floodgates open to everyone else?
Not to say that they intended to manipulate or abuse the luckiest/hardest of hardcore, but it seems possible, and having a trickle of people hit the final (and mostly untested, at least by the public at large) content before you had larger swathes of people hitting him and potentially slamming their faces into a brickwall that, due to whatever circumstances, might not actually be tuned correctly (obviously some things weren't accounted for in internal testing).
I'm not trying to be an appologist or suck up to the idea of how super duper awesome limited attempts were, I guess I'm just trying to work from the premise that Blizzard has used them a few times now, seems to be happy with the concept at least in general, so what would be the factors wherein this would look like a good idea, rather than assuming that they're just blathering idiots that hate their player base (which I'm not willing to ignore as a possibility either).
You can't set a number that is, all at the same time: not overly punitive for an "average" guild; a way to truly measure "skill" vs. time for world/region/etc. firsts; low enough to satisfy the players who want a game-mechanic-based excuse to stop raiding after a certain amount of time; can't be circumvented by alt raids.
There are things that arguably make sense to limit regardless of play time. Gear obtainment rates -- accomplished through raid lock-outs -- are a good example. Experience is not.
Do you have a link to this declaration?
I'm not trying to an asshole, but it seems there was an ICC memo that I didn't get, and I"m curious to read about what they stated/intended, and what we actually got.
The original plan was also to start off with a measly 5 attempts when the Plague wing was released, increasing it by 5 each for the following wings. Then right before the Plague wing was opened in the beginning of January they decided to change it to 10.
It was announced in mid-November: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=21038229051&sid=1&pageNo=1
As when I first read it, I still don't see anything indicating their intent to remove the limited attempts mechanic for normal, so it seems like a change of heart to me (of course, maybe they're playing it close to their vest). If anything, they planned to add enough attempts to eventually make it mostly irrelevant.
Edit: Someone, I forget who (sorry), thought it was because it prevented some people from even trying it at all. I now think that's largely what changed Blizzard's mind.
That was me.
And yes, there's ALOT of people in groups where they wouldn't even touch those bosses.
Limited Attempts are extremely intimidating to people who aren't hardcore raiders.
And I think that's ultimately why they did away with it. There just weren't many people even trying, let alone beating, these bosses.
Nope. It was like that before as I have seen the t9 guy drop all pvp gear numerous times.
Ah, it was even longer ago than I thought that people had the foresight to tell them it was a bad idea!
What problems? 25 man raids add some elements to the 10 man version, that's the idea. They aren't intended to be completely different fights, but they are different enough with extra mechanics and less forgiving numbers (bosses have more health, more damage, shorter enrage timers etc). Does your guild read strats? Then that's really the same thing as 'practicing' in 10 man for the case of your argument.
You say you want a lockout to be shared but then say the fact that there is not one is causing some extra excitement on your realm.
There are hard bosses, it's called hard modes. They are there for you to attempt as you see fit. If you don't try them, that is not a issue, it's a decision.
What's the problem? A guild putting in more time is going to progress faster than ya'll on a separate level of content? I'm baffled.
I run it, but I keep the spamminess turned off. However, any offenses are reported to me. When I PuG, just after the final boss of the instance I have a quiet word with the culprit in whispers. It's pretty effective and saves them some embarrassment, although if they were doing it in raids I'd probably demand it gets fixed up more quickly!
So you're not a strict 10 guild in the least bit, then.
I may regret saying it, but right now, from my point of view in a middling guild: They got ICC's level of difficulty spot-on. We didn't breeze through it like we did on ToC and Naxx, we didn't get stuck on it for weeks on end like we did back on Vashj and Kael'thas. It's difficult, but doesn't feel overwhelmingly so; it feels like we *can* get the kills we need. I don't think they particularly needed the limited attempts on top of that, but I'm sure it's appropriate for the steam-train guilds who just plough through content.
If *we* can kill it (er, save it, I guess), when we're quite a flock of geese, it can't be all that overtuned. I think what made a difference for us is the healers getting the hang of working the stack nicely; we got our eventual kill in just under six minutes.
Also: Amp magic her. It's awesome.
I don't quite get what you've got to lose? By not touching any wing-end boss, what are you saving the attempts *for*?
I'm not sure the limited attempts were the only reason for that. We shied away from Putricide largely due to the perception that he was rather tougher than the other options available at the time (we weren't downing Festergut and Rotface before Blood Princes appeared) and it made sense to work on the easier content to maximise the speed at which gear was gained for the guild as a whole.
When we *did* get to a position where the logical 'next kill' was a wing-end boss, we ploughed straight into it, no problem. Didn't *kill* it, of course, but that's the aforementioned gooseness in action.
They would faction transfer like they did with ToC/server transfer to refresh the attempts.
But I'm kind of fuzzy on how the system actually works, and my GL kind of is too. I've read through the docs on the epgp website, but still seems really unclear to me.
So can someone give me a rundown on it?
Like, do people pay EP for items? Or just gain GP? The site never actually says.
Basically you gain EP, at a rate set by the raid leader (my guild awards 250 every 15 minutes), and when you want a piece of gear you have to pay a price. This price is the amount of GP you get given to you. Your gear priority is your current EP divided by your GP. In the case of multiple raiders wanting the same piece of gear, it is given to the person with the highest priority.
However, if a piece of gear is uncontested, it's just given to that person and they are awarded the GP for the piece, thus lowering their priority for the next contested drop. Each piece of gear also has a lower price that is intended for an off spec award, if no one wants it for main spec.
I like the system, it provides a clear and impartial way to determine who will get a piece of gear.
Also, unless the person in charge of the system does an EP/GP decay, which just lowers all EP and GP numbers by 10%, you never actually lose points of either type.
Blood Beasts root their target on Saurfang?
Deathwhisper is untauntable in P2 and her adds continue spawning from one side.
Gunship - Loot pinata still. Two more portal adds and rocket strikes knock you back a bit.
Festergut - Putricide casts Malleable Goo from his balcony.
Rotface - Putricide casts Vile Gas (the chainable stun from Festergut) from his balcony.
Dreamwalker - AoE shadow damage in the room throughout the fight.
Blood Princes - Some shadow? penalty everytime you move. Didn't know a lot about it as I tank Keleseth and have tons of the shadow resist orbs on me. I didn't notice a change.
Blood Queen - Each vampire in the room boosts her AoE shadow aura.