Healers and DPS are equally capable of getting tunnel vision and screwing up boss mechanics, however there is no excuse for that to happen. There are many addons which make seeing boss mechanics easy, addons for healing, dots, procs, etc... that should make your job easy enough to pay attention to the environment around you.
If you are pulling 6k you are either
A) bad bad RNG
c) overly conservative about staying alive.
What about those around 4k and still die in ICC?
I've basically started pleading with people at this point to improve their dps. 5% wipes on festergut with people pulling 4k dps is seriously getting sad. We can't replace them either because their replacements are just as bad and they have the attitudes that they are top shit rather then friendly demeanours.
I used to put out 3.5k dps sustained in a raid on the boss testing dummy.
In 2008.
On my rogue in mostly Sunwell gear and some levelling rares (and as combat spec, none of this broken HAT goosery).
That said, I do love how inflated everyone's sense of game mechanics has become (in general, not in terms of just dps). As noted in the triple-H thread, I got asked to leave a VoA 10 because mostly 213-232 (including 4 pieces of the armour) isn't good enough for the final boss.
Then I joined another VoA 10 for the hell of it and tanked that shit like it wasn't even worth sweating, including a raid make up that ran all meleee DPS aside from 2 shadow priests. A new achievement and a pair of gloves later, and apparently my gear was, in fact, up to the task.
Now, I get that with enrage timers it becomes very obvious who isn't pulling their weight. I was in for more sub 1% Brutallus wipes than I'd care to discuss, so anyone with bad dps for their gear and content level really does need to work on that.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
True, but when you need to wear kid gloves and have a light touch for anything negative towards people in my guild apparently, it gets to the point where you want to be in a guild that tells people to fuck off for performing poorly.
I actually did that before. We were on week... 10... of northrend beasts hardmode and I had enough, realm changed, FACTION CHANGED, went to another guild and I was 5/5 insanity by week end. The atmosphere in the new guild was terrible so I ended up heading back on the alt I currently play.
It sucks when you want to raid, love the people you raid with, but can't stand their performance.
I've become a guru on every classes PVE dps spec rotation, made dozens of posts and guides, but eh...
Hell, you can kill most (or probably all) bosses in Ulduar25 if your average raid member is doing 4 to 4.5k dps.
For a while, initially, we had some people doing 3k ish, some people doing 6k ish, with a lot of people in between.
Strangely, personally my damage initially was pretty low in 25man...I was only hitting a bit over 4k. But in 10man, I'd hit 6k or more pretty easily. It was baffling, and I'm still not sure what was going on there (and my framerate wasn't much different either).
Of course, in ICC, the standard dps values are a lot higher, since gear levels have inflated a lot.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
That shouldn't be possible End unless your group composition between the two raids is completely different.
I don't disagree.
Eventually my 25man dps improved enough on its own where it wasn't a concern, but I spent a lot of that first month or so trying to figure out what was going on.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
That shouldn't be possible End unless your group composition between the two raids is completely different.
I don't disagree.
Eventually my 25man dps improved enough on its own where it wasn't a concern, but I spent a lot of that first month or so trying to figure out what was going on.
I know it's a completely different issue for healers than DPS, but that's how I felt the first couple months I was with my guild. 25man, most fights I would be super far behind on healing done. 10man I was rocking it. I actually sat down to think about for a while and came to the conclusion. Not enough haste to beat the 3 resto shammies and druid. Between HoTs and chain heals I was always too late. That was before they changed Beacon too. Huge buff.
In my defense it is my offspec. I'd like to actually get to DPS on Saurfang, or Festergut, or some other melee friendly fight though. My numbers are pretty bad in Rotface and Putricide. Barely 4k.
I never said anything about needing 6k plus. But the way some of you guys talk is that you shouldn't even bother stepping into Icc unless you are doing 6k+ which is far from the truth and of course as you pointed out, those fights are different.
I never said anything about needing 6k plus. But the way some of you guys talk is that you shouldn't even bother stepping into Icc unless you are doing 6k+ which is far from the truth and of course as you pointed out, those fights are different.
If you can't do 6K standing still with every buff available to you, then you are:
1) Bad
2) Ignorant of the proper rotation/spec/glyphs for your class
3) Undergeared
I never said anything about needing 6k plus. But the way some of you guys talk is that you shouldn't even bother stepping into Icc unless you are doing 6k+ which is far from the truth and of course as you pointed out, those fights are different.
If you can't do 6K standing still with every buff available to you, then you are:
1) Bad
2) Ignorant of the proper rotation/spec/glyphs for your class
3) Undergeared
Most people that claim they can pull more than 6K are the ones who factor in things like 12 stacks of the thaddius buff, and not having to move at all during the entire fight through sheer luck.
Once you factor in moving around 6k is a pretty damned respectable number from what I can tell watching these youtube videos of ICC25 fights from serious, but non-sock pooping, guilds.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
You don't even have to raid a lot per week to see heroic-mode content either these days. We raid 4 days per week yes, but only 3 hours per night and are currently number one on our server. The trick is finding like-minded people that play well and all coordinate well together.
I'm sad because my guild just lost 4 people because "we weren't progressing fast enough", which I get. I want to see all of ICC before Cataclysm hits too...but now that we're down 4 of our most geared players (all of which had several raid geared 80s), we're even less likely to get to that content which make me want to go guild shopping too...
Most people that claim they can pull more than 6K are the ones who factor in things like 12 stacks of the thaddius buff, and not having to move at all during the entire fight through sheer luck..
On 25 man, 6K on normal fights won't cut it for fights like Blood Queen. We get her down with about 3 seconds to spare on her berserk. On fights like Putricide, which is the worst moving around and dodging crap fight in there, none of our DPS are below 6K and 7 of them are over 8K.
Maybe you saw DPS on fights like Dreamwalker, where really efficient focus fire/dps will have big gaps in between adds where there is no damage to be done, lowering overall DPS.
How the hell do your melee maintain that kind of dps on Putricide with all the running to the adds? I hate that when i was ret since I'd have no corruption stacks on it, and they'd be gone on the Prof when i got back.
Most people that claim they can pull more than 6K are the ones who factor in things like 12 stacks of the thaddius buff, and not having to move at all during the entire fight through sheer luck..
On 25 man, 6K on normal fights won't cut it for fights like Blood Queen. We get her down with about 3 seconds to spare on her berserk. On fights like Putricide, which is the worst moving around and dodging crap fight in there, none of our DPS are below 6K and 7 of them are over 8K.
Maybe you saw DPS on fights like Dreamwalker, where really efficient focus fire/dps will have big gaps in between adds where there is no damage to be done, lowering overall DPS.
This particular video was festergut and while the lowest dps was 6k, the average is 8k in the video. I've yet to see anyone but hunters and rogues pull more than 8-9k in our 25s. The ones that are could probably be in more hardcore guilds too with the way they theorycraft and all that, I've yet to see anyone get past 10K consecutively though so I don't know where some people come up with these numbers. Besides ololtrash.
I sincerely doubt there's that much more "Imma raydar!" going on there between you guys and some of the more hardcore raiders on the server.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
My guild's best rogues (especially the mutilate ones) do over 10k on the stand and DPS fights (Saurfang and Festergut). Then again, we're blessed with some good tanks who put out a lot of threat, and the rogues get to throw ToT on each other. Even if they weren't doing that, though, they would still be at or above 10k.
That said, we also get Putricide down with multiple people being under 6k overall for the fight, so I think the people saying "everyone needs to be over 6k even on Putricide" are overestimating the required numbers. Of course, that comes with the caveat of "overall for the fight." If you're doing under 6k DPS on phase 3 which is a close to 100% uptime burn phase, then yeah, you're not really doing what you should be.
For Festergut 25man Hard last night we were hitting enrage at 7% consistently, with numerous people over 10k, and several over 11k.
Putricide is pretty bad for ret, but even so if you glyph righteousness and run it for P1, then swap to Corruption for P2 (or get good at using the green explosion to toss you at the boss in P1 to keep the stack up), then you can still do well over 6k.
Well P1 usually isn't an issue (at least not in 10 man) since for us it lasts until the first blob is about halfway dead. I'm just still baffled at how we can't manage to down it now with a nearly identical group.
How the hell do your melee maintain that kind of dps on Putricide with all the running to the adds? I hate that when i was ret since I'd have no corruption stacks on it, and they'd be gone on the Prof when i got back.
Execution of strategy? DPS on Putricide, turn around, hit the green ooze until it's dead then move back to Putricide. Wait for brown ooze to pick a target, run over and start hitting it.
If you can't pull 6k on a fight like BQL or Festergut which are both Patchwerk recreations, you are bad or undergeared. Your damage is doubled on BQL also.
How the hell do your melee maintain that kind of dps on Putricide with all the running to the adds? I hate that when i was ret since I'd have no corruption stacks on it, and they'd be gone on the Prof when i got back.
Execution of strategy? DPS on Putricide, turn around, hit the green ooze until it's dead then move back to Putricide. Wait for brown ooze to pick a target, run over and start hitting it.
If you can't pull 6k on a fight like BQL or Festergut which are both Patchwerk recreations, you are bad or undergeared. Your damage is doubled on BQL also.
Good thing we weren't talking BQL or Festergut. And yeah, that's the strategy we use, which involves me spending a lot of time running to and from adds and thus not hitting anything.
I don't think anyone is contending numbers like 6k on BQL, by the way.
Still, to be fair, if you're one of the last ones bitten (on my BQL kill this week, I didn't even get bit), your damage isn't doubled. And since it's an RNG fight, it's possible you could get pacted/shadowed multiple times too.
For Festergut 25man Hard last night we were hitting enrage at 7% consistently, with numerous people over 10k, and several over 11k.
Putricide is pretty bad for ret, but even so if you glyph righteousness and run it for P1, then swap to Corruption for P2 (or get good at using the green explosion to toss you at the boss in P1 to keep the stack up), then you can still do well over 6k.
What tactic did you use for Festergut? We were having a hell of a time wasting attempts trying to agree on a tactic. The one we had most success with was a slight modification to our normal mode, with 7 people at range and the rest stacking at one of his legs, then when someone in melee got gooed we moved to the other. With this we had very good dps and noone (in melee at least) got hit by the goo, but the spores caused us a lot of trouble (do they have a max number of targets on heroic? On our best attempt up to that point a full 7 of us died because we only had 2 innoculates despite the tactic pretty much forcing people to get hit, and I at least never missed a spore that I could see) and the tanks had a habit of dying when our melee healers had to move at 3 stack inhaled. We never made it past the first pungent blight in 3 hours, although we only got 4 attempts in with the above strat. Of course, our 2 most regular holy paladins were away, it would have been a lot more doable with more than 1.
Definitely seems doable, but since we don't raid that much I have no idea how long we're gonna keep trying. Might move and try Rotface instead.
As for Putricide, as ret I just don't bother switching to the gas clouds, it's really not necessary if you're not running very melee-heavy. Just using SoR costs me a lot of dps, I usually end up around 7k overall.
Rotface Heroic is a joke Serpico, might as well just kill him to start the night.
Our strat on Festergut Heroic was to have most everyone at range that could be with either one or two stack points, then have everyone collapse to that point at ranged during spores, and all melee in a group going from leg to leg as goos came down. We finally got the melee to stop being hit by goo, but we had a problem on the last attempt with a few of the range doing bad dps (goo hit em) and we had 3 dps die on the last attempt which otherwise was our highest dps run. If all had gone well that last attempt I think we'd have wiped with him at 2% on the enrage instead of 7%.
As far as tank healers go, they were already on the stack point, to either side of it so that only one had to move for goo, and one bubbled the first exhale so he didn't need stacks, other bubbled the second exhale so he didn't need to get stacks. Worked well overall, just need more dps. We are considering just cheesing it with 5 heals to be honest.
And yeah Serpico, we raid 12 hours per week, so we have been bouncing all over testing hard modes so we don't waste all our time on one when there are others we can down for phat lewtz.
Posts
I know. It's impossible to argue with someone over their very specific DPS numbers on a message board.
The bigger point is that DPS in general need to realize staying alive is part of their job.
A) bad
c) overly conservative about staying alive.
If you are pulling 8k and dieing you are either
a) bad at situational awareness
b) Bad RNG.
I have no issue with his epeen. I'm sure it's a thick, veiny monster.
DPS dying in fights is the issue.
What about those around 4k and still die in ICC?
I've basically started pleading with people at this point to improve their dps. 5% wipes on festergut with people pulling 4k dps is seriously getting sad. We can't replace them either because their replacements are just as bad and they have the attitudes that they are top shit rather then friendly demeanours.
Plus dps is my offspec, not my mainspec.
In 2008.
On my rogue in mostly Sunwell gear and some levelling rares (and as combat spec, none of this broken HAT goosery).
That said, I do love how inflated everyone's sense of game mechanics has become (in general, not in terms of just dps). As noted in the triple-H thread, I got asked to leave a VoA 10 because mostly 213-232 (including 4 pieces of the armour) isn't good enough for the final boss.
Then I joined another VoA 10 for the hell of it and tanked that shit like it wasn't even worth sweating, including a raid make up that ran all meleee DPS aside from 2 shadow priests. A new achievement and a pair of gloves later, and apparently my gear was, in fact, up to the task.
Now, I get that with enrage timers it becomes very obvious who isn't pulling their weight. I was in for more sub 1% Brutallus wipes than I'd care to discuss, so anyone with bad dps for their gear and content level really does need to work on that.
I actually did that before. We were on week... 10... of northrend beasts hardmode and I had enough, realm changed, FACTION CHANGED, went to another guild and I was 5/5 insanity by week end. The atmosphere in the new guild was terrible so I ended up heading back on the alt I currently play.
It sucks when you want to raid, love the people you raid with, but can't stand their performance.
I've become a guru on every classes PVE dps spec rotation, made dozens of posts and guides, but eh...
For a while, initially, we had some people doing 3k ish, some people doing 6k ish, with a lot of people in between.
Strangely, personally my damage initially was pretty low in 25man...I was only hitting a bit over 4k. But in 10man, I'd hit 6k or more pretty easily. It was baffling, and I'm still not sure what was going on there (and my framerate wasn't much different either).
Of course, in ICC, the standard dps values are a lot higher, since gear levels have inflated a lot.
I don't disagree.
Eventually my 25man dps improved enough on its own where it wasn't a concern, but I spent a lot of that first month or so trying to figure out what was going on.
I know it's a completely different issue for healers than DPS, but that's how I felt the first couple months I was with my guild. 25man, most fights I would be super far behind on healing done. 10man I was rocking it. I actually sat down to think about for a while and came to the conclusion. Not enough haste to beat the 3 resto shammies and druid. Between HoTs and chain heals I was always too late. That was before they changed Beacon too. Huge buff.
:raises hand sheepishly:
In my defense it is my offspec. I'd like to actually get to DPS on Saurfang, or Festergut, or some other melee friendly fight though. My numbers are pretty bad in Rotface and Putricide. Barely 4k.
So your guild must be tackling hard modes?
Um, you don't need to be on hardmodes to need > 6K DPS. 6K DPS is way too low on a fight like Putricide, Festergut, or Blood Queen.
If you can't do 6K standing still with every buff available to you, then you are:
1) Bad
2) Ignorant of the proper rotation/spec/glyphs for your class
3) Undergeared
Most people that claim they can pull more than 6K are the ones who factor in things like 12 stacks of the thaddius buff, and not having to move at all during the entire fight through sheer luck.
Once you factor in moving around 6k is a pretty damned respectable number from what I can tell watching these youtube videos of ICC25 fights from serious, but non-sock pooping, guilds.
I'm sad because my guild just lost 4 people because "we weren't progressing fast enough", which I get. I want to see all of ICC before Cataclysm hits too...but now that we're down 4 of our most geared players (all of which had several raid geared 80s), we're even less likely to get to that content which make me want to go guild shopping too...
On 25 man, 6K on normal fights won't cut it for fights like Blood Queen. We get her down with about 3 seconds to spare on her berserk. On fights like Putricide, which is the worst moving around and dodging crap fight in there, none of our DPS are below 6K and 7 of them are over 8K.
Maybe you saw DPS on fights like Dreamwalker, where really efficient focus fire/dps will have big gaps in between adds where there is no damage to be done, lowering overall DPS.
This particular video was festergut and while the lowest dps was 6k, the average is 8k in the video. I've yet to see anyone but hunters and rogues pull more than 8-9k in our 25s. The ones that are could probably be in more hardcore guilds too with the way they theorycraft and all that, I've yet to see anyone get past 10K consecutively though so I don't know where some people come up with these numbers. Besides ololtrash.
I sincerely doubt there's that much more "Imma raydar!" going on there between you guys and some of the more hardcore raiders on the server.
That said, we also get Putricide down with multiple people being under 6k overall for the fight, so I think the people saying "everyone needs to be over 6k even on Putricide" are overestimating the required numbers. Of course, that comes with the caveat of "overall for the fight." If you're doing under 6k DPS on phase 3 which is a close to 100% uptime burn phase, then yeah, you're not really doing what you should be.
Putricide is pretty bad for ret, but even so if you glyph righteousness and run it for P1, then swap to Corruption for P2 (or get good at using the green explosion to toss you at the boss in P1 to keep the stack up), then you can still do well over 6k.
Execution of strategy? DPS on Putricide, turn around, hit the green ooze until it's dead then move back to Putricide. Wait for brown ooze to pick a target, run over and start hitting it.
If you can't pull 6k on a fight like BQL or Festergut which are both Patchwerk recreations, you are bad or undergeared. Your damage is doubled on BQL also.
Good thing we weren't talking BQL or Festergut. And yeah, that's the strategy we use, which involves me spending a lot of time running to and from adds and thus not hitting anything.
Still, to be fair, if you're one of the last ones bitten (on my BQL kill this week, I didn't even get bit), your damage isn't doubled. And since it's an RNG fight, it's possible you could get pacted/shadowed multiple times too.
What tactic did you use for Festergut? We were having a hell of a time wasting attempts trying to agree on a tactic. The one we had most success with was a slight modification to our normal mode, with 7 people at range and the rest stacking at one of his legs, then when someone in melee got gooed we moved to the other. With this we had very good dps and noone (in melee at least) got hit by the goo, but the spores caused us a lot of trouble (do they have a max number of targets on heroic? On our best attempt up to that point a full 7 of us died because we only had 2 innoculates despite the tactic pretty much forcing people to get hit, and I at least never missed a spore that I could see) and the tanks had a habit of dying when our melee healers had to move at 3 stack inhaled. We never made it past the first pungent blight in 3 hours, although we only got 4 attempts in with the above strat. Of course, our 2 most regular holy paladins were away, it would have been a lot more doable with more than 1.
Definitely seems doable, but since we don't raid that much I have no idea how long we're gonna keep trying. Might move and try Rotface instead.
As for Putricide, as ret I just don't bother switching to the gas clouds, it's really not necessary if you're not running very melee-heavy. Just using SoR costs me a lot of dps, I usually end up around 7k overall.
Our strat on Festergut Heroic was to have most everyone at range that could be with either one or two stack points, then have everyone collapse to that point at ranged during spores, and all melee in a group going from leg to leg as goos came down. We finally got the melee to stop being hit by goo, but we had a problem on the last attempt with a few of the range doing bad dps (goo hit em) and we had 3 dps die on the last attempt which otherwise was our highest dps run. If all had gone well that last attempt I think we'd have wiped with him at 2% on the enrage instead of 7%.
As far as tank healers go, they were already on the stack point, to either side of it so that only one had to move for goo, and one bubbled the first exhale so he didn't need stacks, other bubbled the second exhale so he didn't need to get stacks. Worked well overall, just need more dps. We are considering just cheesing it with 5 heals to be honest.
And yeah Serpico, we raid 12 hours per week, so we have been bouncing all over testing hard modes so we don't waste all our time on one when there are others we can down for phat lewtz.