Well your choices aren't like "Choose your own Adventure" books, which are short and head in wildly variant directions, but Shepard is the hero you choose. You get to decide how the hero acts and reacts to most everything in the game.
That is very fucking cool, in my book.
Very true, it was an excellent game; but you're right, its not 'choose your own adventure', its kinda like...
'Choose what your guy says, so people have a different attitude while talking to you and giving you the same end result adventure' maybe?
I just don't see the infinite replayability that people are getting out of it; it was a great game, but even playing through again, it'd be slight variations of the original playthrough, and not a lot more.
I don't even see why there's 15 threads on ME2... the game was pretty brief overall; I enjoyed it, but I'm surprised it's out-discussing Bioshock 2 and so many other great games coming out.
I hate neglecting the thread on it. Suffering from some burnout on that game though. ME2 I played through five times almost back-to-back (took a break to play Bioshock 2 and the multiplayer). This game just has magic replayability I cannot put my finger on.
I'm sort of with Dunxco, but I figure the replayability is that I keep felling like I can go back through with slightly different decisions, like, "This time Shepard's adventure will be <adjective>." You really make 4 plot choices in Bioshock 2 (What to do with little sisters, what to do with the 3 big NPCs), in ME2, you just keep making choices. Choice city.
I'm currently playing through without using charm/intimidate, and it seems like I have to solve a lot more problems with the gun.
Choice city, really? You make little decisions here & there, I'm sure, and some people like you, don't like you, some survive, and some die. All in all, if ME3 played it out like ME2 did with importing from ME1, it'll be slightly cosmetic changes. Since you can potentially 'kill' all the characters from your current game, I doubt any will actually come back to the 2nd one, other than replaceable cameos like Wrex.
So although you are given many choices, they all end in the same result--the ending of the game is still the same ending of the game.
I'd like to play through a 2nd time, but other than being a dick to where I was a nice guy before, none of the options really seem to 'pop' to me.
What, exactly, are you asking for?
First of all your argument that "they all end in the same result--the ending of the game is still the same ending of the game" is completely invalid because it is completely false.
You have complete control over who lives and who dies. You control how the game ends in the choices you make in the ending and also the culmination of all the choices you made over the course of the game.
Obviously no; you can't just decide to up and settle down, get married and have a family; because that doesn't fall within the design constraints of the game.
Also it would be fucking retarded if it did. The game is telling an overarching story. It's not a choose your own adventure where you can do whatever you please.
So again, what are you asking for? There are very few games that not only offer the amount of choices presented in ME and ME2, but there are even less that carry their impact into subsequent games in the series.
Sure, many western RPG's offer choice but just like ME, the ending is still the ending; and most don't even offer the sheer amount of control over the ending that you have in ME2. They just present choices that only really effect the progression of the game; they virtually all have predetermined outcomes. ME2 one ups them on this giving you control over the fate of yourself and your squad.
That Dominate trick is sweet. I just got myself 7 extra skill points with all the spare eezo I had. Now I know what to do with that eezo surplus you get after beating the game once.
Arteen on
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DunxcoShould get a suitNever skips breakfastRegistered Userregular
Well your choices aren't like "Choose your own Adventure" books, which are short and head in wildly variant directions, but Shepard is the hero you choose. You get to decide how the hero acts and reacts to most everything in the game.
That is very fucking cool, in my book.
Totally plagarising this awesome youtube video I saw early today that was done by someone I can't remember:
Mass Effect 2 does a very good example of mixing up problems and choices. Things like going Paragon or Renegade at Zaeed's mission are not a choice, it's a problem. It's a problem because while there are two rewards for the outcome, one is vastly superior to the other, so there is an illusion of choice because people will naturally gravitate towards the better rewarded outcome - the decision doesn't come down to it. Whether you think Zaeed's being a dick or say "fuck the other guys", the incentive is inherently putting bias on your choice.
The situations where you can be Paragon or Renegade, with no important outcome (such as Aria and Patriarch) are choices. There is no clear right or wrong answer, but there's also no deliberate incentive being offered for going either way.
In-short: Problems are passed off as choices. I get somewhat irate at the attempt to meld them into one.
I've been through it twice, and been a third to halfway through another couple.
It's making me want to play ME1 again so that I can have another set of decisions to import, but I was tired of ME1 well before ME2 came out and I doubt I could handle it now
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Looking back on ME2. Did anyone else feel it was short?
I think it just seems short cause there is only a few main plot quests. I like to compare bioware games to a large 5 or 6 floor warehouse, each floor is wide with lots to do on each floor, but it wouldn't take that long to get to the top floor if you went straight up.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
holy bastard crap the teammate AI in this game is dumb.
Yes Jacob, it's a fantastic idea for you to run off into the sunset and fight half a dozen blue suns including two heavies on your own. No, I'm sure it won't matter that they all have shields and you have no means of dealing with shields. Don't mind me, I'm just regenerating my health, no need to wait. I'm sure your suicide run will work, element of surprise and all that.
Oh dear.
Jacob is fairly useless on insanity, his squad incendiary ammo is his only saving grace, but Grunt gives you the same thing and is ohh so much better.
Looking back on ME2. Did anyone else feel it was short?
I think it just seems short cause there is only a few main plot quests. I like to compare bioware games to a large 5 or 6 floor warehouse, each floor is wide with lots to do on each floor, but it wouldn't take that long to get to the top floor if you went straight up.
But why would you try to do the bare minimum in ME2? Building your team and exploring their content is pretty much the whole game.
And if you do it all, you're not looking at a particularly short game.
Well your choices aren't like "Choose your own Adventure" books, which are short and head in wildly variant directions, but Shepard is the hero you choose. You get to decide how the hero acts and reacts to most everything in the game.
That is very fucking cool, in my book.
Totally plagarising this awesome youtube video I saw early today that was done by someone I can't remember:
Mass Effect 2 does a very good example of mixing up problems and choices. Things like going Paragon or Renegade at Zaeed's mission are not a choice, it's a problem. It's a problem because while there are two rewards for the outcome, one is vastly superior to the other, so there is an illusion of choice because people will naturally gravitate towards the better rewarded outcome - the decision doesn't come down to it.
The situations where you can be Paragon or Renegade, with no important outcome (such as Aria and Patriarch) are choices. There is no clear right or wrong answer, but there's also no deliberate incentive being offered for going either way.
In-short: Problems are passed off as choices. I get somewhat irate at the attempt to meld them into one.
This is sort of a silly bit of misdirection. You still make a "choice" in zaeed's loyalty quest. Just because (spoiler I guess)
the workers don't go on to start a nonprofit for sick quarian kids or become a mercenary band seeking revenge for your hard-heartedness
doesn't mean it's not a "choice."
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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joshgotroDeviled EggThe Land of REAL CHILIRegistered Userregular
Looking back on ME2. Did anyone else feel it was short?
I think it just seems short cause there is only a few main plot quests. I like to compare bioware games to a large 5 or 6 floor warehouse, each floor is wide with lots to do on each floor, but it wouldn't take that long to get to the top floor if you went straight up.
First of all your argument that "they all end in the same result--the ending of the game is still the same ending of the game" is completely invalid because it is completely false.
You have complete control over who lives and who dies. You control how the game ends in the choices you make in the ending and also the culmination of all the choices you made over the course of the game.
Obviously no; you can't just decide to up and settle down, get married and have a family; because that doesn't fall within the design constraints of the game.
Also it would be fucking retarded if it did. The game is telling an overarching story. It's not a choose your own adventure where you can do whatever you please.
So again, what are you asking for? There are very few games that not only offer the amount of choices presented in ME and ME2, but there are even less that carry their impact into subsequent games in the series.
Sure, many western RPG's offer choice but just like ME, the ending is still the ending; and most don't even offer the sheer amount of control over the ending that you have in ME2. They just present choices that only really effect the progression of the game; they virtually all have predetermined outcomes. ME2 one ups them on this giving you control over the fate of yourself and your squad.
Sure, you can't go off and do whatever you feel like doing; what I'm saying is, regardless of the choices that you make, do you not still
gain party members, help out planet being attacked by Collectors, do loyalty missions, get IFF relay, crew get fucked, take Omega relay, fight big terminator baby
?
You do a lot of chatting inbetween, a LOT, but the basic storyline of the game remains.
Like I've said a few times, I'm not trying to slant the game--I bought the CE, played the crap out of it until completion, and as a whole say I thoroughly enjoyed it. I just can't fathom people being able to say you have SO MANY OPTIONS on what you can do, when said options lead you in the same direction to the relatively-same conclusion.
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Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
holy bastard crap the teammate AI in this game is dumb.
Yes Jacob, it's a fantastic idea for you to run off into the sunset and fight half a dozen blue suns including two heavies on your own. No, I'm sure it won't matter that they all have shields and you have no means of dealing with shields. Don't mind me, I'm just regenerating my health, no need to wait. I'm sure your suicide run will work, element of surprise and all that.
Oh dear.
Jacob is fairly useless on insanity, his squad incendiary ammo is his only saving grace, but Grunt gives you the same thing and is ohh so much better.
I'm only playing on hardcore. And I'm doing Grunt's recruitment mission right now for that exact reason. But I only have Jacob and Miranda at the moment.
Playing as an engineer and all it's doing is making me want to play a soldier again. I miss actually being able to kill people with guns.
I've been through it twice, and been a third to halfway through another couple.
It's making me want to play ME1 again so that I can have another set of decisions to import, but I was tired of ME1 well before ME2 came out and I doubt I could handle it now
I definately want to replay ME1 to get a proper save (on 360) like my one from my old 360. If I have to see Udina on the council one more time I shall flip! Seriously though, default sheperd is 'I did everything possible to fuck things up' sheperd
Well your choices aren't like "Choose your own Adventure" books, which are short and head in wildly variant directions, but Shepard is the hero you choose. You get to decide how the hero acts and reacts to most everything in the game.
That is very fucking cool, in my book.
Totally plagarising this awesome youtube video I saw early today that was done by someone I can't remember:
Mass Effect 2 does a very good example of mixing up problems and choices. Things like going Paragon or Renegade at Zaeed's mission are not a choice, it's a problem. It's a problem because while there are two rewards for the outcome, one is vastly superior to the other, so there is an illusion of choice because people will naturally gravitate towards the better rewarded outcome - the decision doesn't come down to it. Whether you think Zaeed's being a dick or say "fuck the other guys", the incentive is inherently putting bias on your choice.
The situations where you can be Paragon or Renegade, with no important outcome (such as Aria and Patriarch) are choices. There is no clear right or wrong answer, but there's also no deliberate incentive being offered for going either way.
In-short: Problems are passed off as choices. I get somewhat irate at the attempt to meld them into one.
Wait, what's the incentive to go one way or the other on Zaeed's mission?
First of all your argument that "they all end in the same result--the ending of the game is still the same ending of the game" is completely invalid because it is completely false.
You have complete control over who lives and who dies. You control how the game ends in the choices you make in the ending and also the culmination of all the choices you made over the course of the game.
Obviously no; you can't just decide to up and settle down, get married and have a family; because that doesn't fall within the design constraints of the game.
Also it would be fucking retarded if it did. The game is telling an overarching story. It's not a choose your own adventure where you can do whatever you please.
So again, what are you asking for? There are very few games that not only offer the amount of choices presented in ME and ME2, but there are even less that carry their impact into subsequent games in the series.
Sure, many western RPG's offer choice but just like ME, the ending is still the ending; and most don't even offer the sheer amount of control over the ending that you have in ME2. They just present choices that only really effect the progression of the game; they virtually all have predetermined outcomes. ME2 one ups them on this giving you control over the fate of yourself and your squad.
Sure, you can't go off and do whatever you feel like doing; what I'm saying is, regardless of the choices that you make, do you not still
gain party members, help out planet being attacked by Collectors, do loyalty missions, get IFF relay, crew get fucked, take Omega relay, fight big terminator baby
?
You do a lot of chatting inbetween, a LOT, but the basic storyline of the game remains.
Like I've said a few times, I'm not trying to slant the game--I bought the CE, played the crap out of it until completion, and as a whole say I thoroughly enjoyed it. I just can't fathom people being able to say you have SO MANY OPTIONS on what you can do, when said options lead you in the same direction to the relatively-same conclusion.
If your choices in ME1 and then ME2 ended up changing the game a lot, ME2 would be about an hour long. And it would be cool and reactive, but you know, most people wouldn't see a lot of content even just from the ME1 import.
First of all your argument that "they all end in the same result--the ending of the game is still the same ending of the game" is completely invalid because it is completely false.
You have complete control over who lives and who dies. You control how the game ends in the choices you make in the ending and also the culmination of all the choices you made over the course of the game.
Obviously no; you can't just decide to up and settle down, get married and have a family; because that doesn't fall within the design constraints of the game.
Also it would be fucking retarded if it did. The game is telling an overarching story. It's not a choose your own adventure where you can do whatever you please.
So again, what are you asking for? There are very few games that not only offer the amount of choices presented in ME and ME2, but there are even less that carry their impact into subsequent games in the series.
Sure, many western RPG's offer choice but just like ME, the ending is still the ending; and most don't even offer the sheer amount of control over the ending that you have in ME2. They just present choices that only really effect the progression of the game; they virtually all have predetermined outcomes. ME2 one ups them on this giving you control over the fate of yourself and your squad.
Sure, you can't go off and do whatever you feel like doing; what I'm saying is, regardless of the choices that you make, do you not still
gain party members, help out planet being attacked by Collectors, do loyalty missions, get IFF relay, crew get fucked, take Omega relay, fight big terminator baby
?
You do a lot of chatting inbetween, a LOT, but the basic storyline of the game remains.
Like I've said a few times, I'm not trying to slant the game--I bought the CE, played the crap out of it until completion, and as a whole say I thoroughly enjoyed it. I just can't fathom people being able to say you have SO MANY OPTIONS on what you can do, when said options lead you in the same direction to the relatively-same conclusion.
You do have shitloads of options of what to do - but they don't alter the basic narrative structure of the story, which is pretty much impossible to do. You still need to follow a storyline. What you do following that storyline is where the options are, and there's absolutely shitloads of them.
edit - I think the problem comes from people thinking it means you can do anything, which isn't true. But what you can do... you could play the game half a dozen times, and apart from the basic narrative, you play the game completely differently.
-Loki- on
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Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
edited February 2010
I really like Feros for some reason. Pinging the asari clone off of ledges in the thorian lair always amuses me.
Brovid Hasselsmof on
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joshgotroDeviled EggThe Land of REAL CHILIRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
That squad point hack is useless for a Soldier class. The only thing you aren't maxing out is Incendiary and Cryo but Warp Ammo is max and it's better.
joshgotro on
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DunxcoShould get a suitNever skips breakfastRegistered Userregular
Well your choices aren't like "Choose your own Adventure" books, which are short and head in wildly variant directions, but Shepard is the hero you choose. You get to decide how the hero acts and reacts to most everything in the game.
That is very fucking cool, in my book.
Totally plagarising this awesome youtube video I saw early today that was done by someone I can't remember:
Mass Effect 2 does a very good example of mixing up problems and choices. Things like going Paragon or Renegade at Zaeed's mission are not a choice, it's a problem. It's a problem because while there are two rewards for the outcome, one is vastly superior to the other, so there is an illusion of choice because people will naturally gravitate towards the better rewarded outcome - the decision doesn't come down to it.
The situations where you can be Paragon or Renegade, with no important outcome (such as Aria and Patriarch) are choices. There is no clear right or wrong answer, but there's also no deliberate incentive being offered for going either way.
In-short: Problems are passed off as choices. I get somewhat irate at the attempt to meld them into one.
This is sort of a silly bit of misdirection. You still make a "choice" in zaeed's loyalty quest. Just because (spoiler I guess)
the workers don't go on to start a nonprofit for sick quarian kids or become a mercenary band seeking revenge for your hard-heartedness
When there are two outcomes to a "choice", and one outcome offers a superior reward (choosing to go Paragon because of the extra resources and bonus heavy weapons ammo upgrade) compared to the other (choosing to go Renegade because of the assault rifle upgrade) then it no longer becomes a choice, but a problem, because there is a best solution. A choice would be "choosing between two things that have equal or incomparible value", which these two things clearly are not.
Well your choices aren't like "Choose your own Adventure" books, which are short and head in wildly variant directions, but Shepard is the hero you choose. You get to decide how the hero acts and reacts to most everything in the game.
That is very fucking cool, in my book.
Totally plagarising this awesome youtube video I saw early today that was done by someone I can't remember:
Mass Effect 2 does a very good example of mixing up problems and choices. Things like going Paragon or Renegade at Zaeed's mission are not a choice, it's a problem. It's a problem because while there are two rewards for the outcome, one is vastly superior to the other, so there is an illusion of choice because people will naturally gravitate towards the better rewarded outcome - the decision doesn't come down to it.
The situations where you can be Paragon or Renegade, with no important outcome (such as Aria and Patriarch) are choices. There is no clear right or wrong answer, but there's also no deliberate incentive being offered for going either way.
In-short: Problems are passed off as choices. I get somewhat irate at the attempt to meld them into one.
This is sort of a silly bit of misdirection. You still make a "choice" in zaeed's loyalty quest. Just because (spoiler I guess)
the workers don't go on to start a nonprofit for sick quarian kids or become a mercenary band seeking revenge for your hard-heartedness
When there are two outcomes to a "choice", and one outcome offers a superior reward (choosing to go Paragon because of the extra resources and bonus heavy weapons ammo upgrade) compared to the other (choosing to go Renegade because of the assault rifle upgrade) then it no longer becomes a choice, but a problem, because there is a best solution. A choice would be "choosing between two things that have equal or incomparible value", which these two things clearly are not.
But you can't know which gives the "best" reward prior to doing both.
Also, not seeing the impact of your choices is a function of how much perspective the game gives you; mass effect 2 doesn't take place like a hundred years after the first game, so all the galaxy-spanning effects of saving the council or wrex or whatever haven't happened yet. It's been two years; life is going on pretty much the same way it always did.
I mean, I get the sense that people want bioware to have found a ham-handed way for every decision you made to have a determinative impact on ME2 so that your choices could be "important," which even setting aside all the concerns about developer time (and the fact that the game already requires two fucking DVDs), just wouldn't make very much sense.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
First of all your argument that "they all end in the same result--the ending of the game is still the same ending of the game" is completely invalid because it is completely false.
You have complete control over who lives and who dies. You control how the game ends in the choices you make in the ending and also the culmination of all the choices you made over the course of the game.
Obviously no; you can't just decide to up and settle down, get married and have a family; because that doesn't fall within the design constraints of the game.
Also it would be fucking retarded if it did. The game is telling an overarching story. It's not a choose your own adventure where you can do whatever you please.
So again, what are you asking for? There are very few games that not only offer the amount of choices presented in ME and ME2, but there are even less that carry their impact into subsequent games in the series.
Sure, many western RPG's offer choice but just like ME, the ending is still the ending; and most don't even offer the sheer amount of control over the ending that you have in ME2. They just present choices that only really effect the progression of the game; they virtually all have predetermined outcomes. ME2 one ups them on this giving you control over the fate of yourself and your squad.
Sure, you can't go off and do whatever you feel like doing; what I'm saying is, regardless of the choices that you make, do you not still
gain party members, help out planet being attacked by Collectors, do loyalty missions, get IFF relay, crew get fucked, take Omega relay, fight big terminator baby
?
You do a lot of chatting inbetween, a LOT, but the basic storyline of the game remains.
Like I've said a few times, I'm not trying to slant the game--I bought the CE, played the crap out of it until completion, and as a whole say I thoroughly enjoyed it. I just can't fathom people being able to say you have SO MANY OPTIONS on what you can do, when said options lead you in the same direction to the relatively-same conclusion.
Yes, there's a lot of options regarding what you can do.
No, they don't change the very general storyline.
Where's the argument here?
Wet Bandit on
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Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
Well your choices aren't like "Choose your own Adventure" books, which are short and head in wildly variant directions, but Shepard is the hero you choose. You get to decide how the hero acts and reacts to most everything in the game.
That is very fucking cool, in my book.
Totally plagarising this awesome youtube video I saw early today that was done by someone I can't remember:
Mass Effect 2 does a very good example of mixing up problems and choices. Things like going Paragon or Renegade at Zaeed's mission are not a choice, it's a problem. It's a problem because while there are two rewards for the outcome, one is vastly superior to the other, so there is an illusion of choice because people will naturally gravitate towards the better rewarded outcome - the decision doesn't come down to it.
The situations where you can be Paragon or Renegade, with no important outcome (such as Aria and Patriarch) are choices. There is no clear right or wrong answer, but there's also no deliberate incentive being offered for going either way.
In-short: Problems are passed off as choices. I get somewhat irate at the attempt to meld them into one.
This is sort of a silly bit of misdirection. You still make a "choice" in zaeed's loyalty quest. Just because (spoiler I guess)
the workers don't go on to start a nonprofit for sick quarian kids or become a mercenary band seeking revenge for your hard-heartedness
When there are two outcomes to a "choice", and one outcome offers a superior reward (choosing to go Paragon because of the extra resources and bonus heavy weapons ammo upgrade) compared to the other (choosing to go Renegade because of the assault rifle upgrade) then it no longer becomes a choice, but a problem, because there is a best solution. A choice would be "choosing between two things that have equal or incomparible value", which these two things clearly are not.
But you can't know which gives the "best" reward prior to doing both.
Okay then, different example - what to do with Grunt. Grunt is not a choice, it's a problem, because waking him up offers you a far more tangible reward - another squad member, access to discounts, extra experience and equipment, and a new bonus talent. Or you can just never wake him up. This isn't a choice because a choice should be between two things of equal or incomparable value, which this isn't.
I'm not saying there aren't choices in the game. There are.
Whether or not you tell Mordin to spare his student's life. Hugging Tali to comfort her. Intimidating or Charming someone on the Citadel to give you a discount. Those are choices, because the outcomes are identical.
Looking back on ME2. Did anyone else feel it was short?
I think it just seems short cause there is only a few main plot quests. I like to compare bioware games to a large 5 or 6 floor warehouse, each floor is wide with lots to do on each floor, but it wouldn't take that long to get to the top floor if you went straight up.
But why would you try to do the bare minimum in ME2? Building your team and exploring their content is pretty much the whole game.
And if you do it all, you're not looking at a particularly short game.
Oh, I don't, I do every side quest in every rpg I ever play, I can't help it. I'm just pointing out how some people can feel it is short because the main plot quests are short.
I guess I'd call a long jrpg a 100 floor tower with only 1 room. I still like em though, nothing wrong with a linier story, it's why I still enjoy books, movies, and fps.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
holy bastard crap the teammate AI in this game is dumb.
Yes Jacob, it's a fantastic idea for you to run off into the sunset and fight half a dozen blue suns including two heavies on your own. No, I'm sure it won't matter that they all have shields and you have no means of dealing with shields. Don't mind me, I'm just regenerating my health, no need to wait. I'm sure your suicide run will work, element of surprise and all that.
Oh dear.
Jacob is fairly useless on insanity, his squad incendiary ammo is his only saving grace, but Grunt gives you the same thing and is ohh so much better.
I'm only playing on hardcore. And I'm doing Grunt's recruitment mission right now for that exact reason. But I only have Jacob and Miranda at the moment.
Playing as an engineer and all it's doing is making me want to play a soldier again. I miss actually being able to kill people with guns.
Grunt's recruitment mission was brutal as a noob Adept on Insanity. For some stupid reason I didn't bring anyone that could drop shields fast so I had like Jacob and Jack or some other bad combination, was so epic when I finished that mission, was like completely out of medi gel, half my squad was dead after every fight. I'd be there plunking away with my bad machine pistol and warp/reave.
When there are two outcomes to a "choice", and one outcome offers a superior reward (choosing to go Paragon because of the extra resources and bonus heavy weapons ammo upgrade) compared to the other (choosing to go Renegade because of the assault rifle upgrade) then it no longer becomes a choice, but a problem, because there is a best solution. A choice would be "choosing between two things that have equal or incomparible value", which these two things clearly are not.
I'm pretty sure most people really don't care about which upgrade they get. For most people, the choice is between "save the workers" and "kill that bastard Vito". Renegade also gives you Zaeed's loyalty for free, so if your P/R levels are low, Renegade is clearly the better option.
Well your choices aren't like "Choose your own Adventure" books, which are short and head in wildly variant directions, but Shepard is the hero you choose. You get to decide how the hero acts and reacts to most everything in the game.
That is very fucking cool, in my book.
Totally plagarising this awesome youtube video I saw early today that was done by someone I can't remember:
Mass Effect 2 does a very good example of mixing up problems and choices. Things like going Paragon or Renegade at Zaeed's mission are not a choice, it's a problem. It's a problem because while there are two rewards for the outcome, one is vastly superior to the other, so there is an illusion of choice because people will naturally gravitate towards the better rewarded outcome - the decision doesn't come down to it.
The situations where you can be Paragon or Renegade, with no important outcome (such as Aria and Patriarch) are choices. There is no clear right or wrong answer, but there's also no deliberate incentive being offered for going either way.
In-short: Problems are passed off as choices. I get somewhat irate at the attempt to meld them into one.
This is sort of a silly bit of misdirection. You still make a "choice" in zaeed's loyalty quest. Just because (spoiler I guess)
the workers don't go on to start a nonprofit for sick quarian kids or become a mercenary band seeking revenge for your hard-heartedness
When there are two outcomes to a "choice", and one outcome offers a superior reward (choosing to go Paragon because of the extra resources and bonus heavy weapons ammo upgrade) compared to the other (choosing to go Renegade because of the assault rifle upgrade) then it no longer becomes a choice, but a problem, because there is a best solution. A choice would be "choosing between two things that have equal or incomparible value", which these two things clearly are not.
Are you really making a min/max argument here? Even if I concede that even matters to the choice being made, more AR damage is a lot better than a little bit more heavy weapon ammo. The resources don't really matter.
And even assuming foreknowledge of which way gives you which upgrade,are people really making the decision based on that information? I would be amazed if people are doing that.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Also, not seeing the impact of your choices is a function of how much perspective the game gives you; mass effect 2 doesn't take place like a hundred years after the first game, so all the galaxy-spanning effects of saving the council or wrex or whatever haven't happened yet. It's been two years; life is going on pretty much the same way it always did.
I mean, I get the sense that people want bioware to have found a ham-handed way for every decision you made to have a determinative impact on ME2 so that your choices could be "important," which even setting aside all the concerns about developer time (and the fact that the game already requires two fucking DVDs), just wouldn't make very much sense.
This reminds me of an idea I had - when this trilogy is over I wouldn't mind seeing bioware return to the mass effect world perhaps hundreds of years later - different characters, different plot.
They've produced a very complete universe and ofcourse you could carry over a save which really COULD affect the world - what Wrex did for the Krogan etc.
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Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
edited February 2010
I don't follow your logic Dunxco. Since when is a choice only a choice if the two things to choose from are equal?
Okay then, different example - what to do with Grunt. Grunt is not a choice, it's a problem, because waking him up offers you a far more tangible reward - another squad member, access to discounts, extra experience and equipment, and a new bonus talent. Or you can just never wake him up. This isn't a choice because a choice should be between two things of equal or incomparable value, which this isn't.
Honestly, these distinctions just seem silly. Something suddenly isn't a choice all because one decision turns out to be "better".
And part of what made me like ME2 as much as I did is because I was into it enough to not min/max my decisions and actually roleplay to the situations. Zaeed didn't get revenge because Shepard wasn't going to let him burn a foundry of slave-workers to death, not because I wanted this resource or that.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Okay then, different example - what to do with Grunt. Grunt is not a choice, it's a problem, because waking him up offers you a far more tangible reward - another squad member, access to discounts, extra experience and equipment, and a new bonus talent. Or you can just never wake him up. This isn't a choice because a choice should be between two things of equal or incomparable value, which this isn't.
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Very true, it was an excellent game; but you're right, its not 'choose your own adventure', its kinda like...
'Choose what your guy says, so people have a different attitude while talking to you and giving you the same end result adventure' maybe?
I just don't see the infinite replayability that people are getting out of it; it was a great game, but even playing through again, it'd be slight variations of the original playthrough, and not a lot more.
What, exactly, are you asking for?
First of all your argument that "they all end in the same result--the ending of the game is still the same ending of the game" is completely invalid because it is completely false.
You have complete control over who lives and who dies. You control how the game ends in the choices you make in the ending and also the culmination of all the choices you made over the course of the game.
Obviously no; you can't just decide to up and settle down, get married and have a family; because that doesn't fall within the design constraints of the game.
Also it would be fucking retarded if it did. The game is telling an overarching story. It's not a choose your own adventure where you can do whatever you please.
So again, what are you asking for? There are very few games that not only offer the amount of choices presented in ME and ME2, but there are even less that carry their impact into subsequent games in the series.
Sure, many western RPG's offer choice but just like ME, the ending is still the ending; and most don't even offer the sheer amount of control over the ending that you have in ME2. They just present choices that only really effect the progression of the game; they virtually all have predetermined outcomes. ME2 one ups them on this giving you control over the fate of yourself and your squad.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
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Totally plagarising this awesome youtube video I saw early today that was done by someone I can't remember:
Mass Effect 2 does a very good example of mixing up problems and choices. Things like going Paragon or Renegade at Zaeed's mission are not a choice, it's a problem. It's a problem because while there are two rewards for the outcome, one is vastly superior to the other, so there is an illusion of choice because people will naturally gravitate towards the better rewarded outcome - the decision doesn't come down to it. Whether you think Zaeed's being a dick or say "fuck the other guys", the incentive is inherently putting bias on your choice.
The situations where you can be Paragon or Renegade, with no important outcome (such as Aria and Patriarch) are choices. There is no clear right or wrong answer, but there's also no deliberate incentive being offered for going either way.
In-short: Problems are passed off as choices. I get somewhat irate at the attempt to meld them into one.
It's making me want to play ME1 again so that I can have another set of decisions to import, but I was tired of ME1 well before ME2 came out and I doubt I could handle it now
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I think it just seems short cause there is only a few main plot quests. I like to compare bioware games to a large 5 or 6 floor warehouse, each floor is wide with lots to do on each floor, but it wouldn't take that long to get to the top floor if you went straight up.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Jacob is fairly useless on insanity, his squad incendiary ammo is his only saving grace, but Grunt gives you the same thing and is ohh so much better.
But why would you try to do the bare minimum in ME2? Building your team and exploring their content is pretty much the whole game.
And if you do it all, you're not looking at a particularly short game.
This is sort of a silly bit of misdirection. You still make a "choice" in zaeed's loyalty quest. Just because (spoiler I guess)
doesn't mean it's not a "choice."
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Oh god two whistles in SMB3
Sure, you can't go off and do whatever you feel like doing; what I'm saying is, regardless of the choices that you make, do you not still
You do a lot of chatting inbetween, a LOT, but the basic storyline of the game remains.
Like I've said a few times, I'm not trying to slant the game--I bought the CE, played the crap out of it until completion, and as a whole say I thoroughly enjoyed it. I just can't fathom people being able to say you have SO MANY OPTIONS on what you can do, when said options lead you in the same direction to the relatively-same conclusion.
I'm only playing on hardcore. And I'm doing Grunt's recruitment mission right now for that exact reason. But I only have Jacob and Miranda at the moment.
Playing as an engineer and all it's doing is making me want to play a soldier again. I miss actually being able to kill people with guns.
I definately want to replay ME1 to get a proper save (on 360) like my one from my old 360. If I have to see Udina on the council one more time I shall flip! Seriously though, default sheperd is 'I did everything possible to fuck things up' sheperd
Wait, what's the incentive to go one way or the other on Zaeed's mission?
If your choices in ME1 and then ME2 ended up changing the game a lot, ME2 would be about an hour long. And it would be cool and reactive, but you know, most people wouldn't see a lot of content even just from the ME1 import.
ed: re: zaeed's mission
edit2: not once has it impacted my decision, even if one is "better"
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yea, I had to gamefaqs this one too, to make sure I had everyone's loyalty right
I like Noveria because learning about the Rachni is cool.
But other than that yeah, Virmire is way better.
You do have shitloads of options of what to do - but they don't alter the basic narrative structure of the story, which is pretty much impossible to do. You still need to follow a storyline. What you do following that storyline is where the options are, and there's absolutely shitloads of them.
edit - I think the problem comes from people thinking it means you can do anything, which isn't true. But what you can do... you could play the game half a dozen times, and apart from the basic narrative, you play the game completely differently.
Found the video in question:
That's not what I'm getting at.
But you can't know which gives the "best" reward prior to doing both.
I mean, I get the sense that people want bioware to have found a ham-handed way for every decision you made to have a determinative impact on ME2 so that your choices could be "important," which even setting aside all the concerns about developer time (and the fact that the game already requires two fucking DVDs), just wouldn't make very much sense.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yes, there's a lot of options regarding what you can do.
No, they don't change the very general storyline.
Where's the argument here?
I thought Feros had the coolest atmosphere of the main planets leading up to the finale.
I have to say its kinda sad regarding choices from ME1 - 2
in having renegade choices carry over to ME2
..its a bit of a bummer
But you can't know which gives the "best" reward prior to doing both.
Okay then, different example - what to do with Grunt. Grunt is not a choice, it's a problem, because waking him up offers you a far more tangible reward - another squad member, access to discounts, extra experience and equipment, and a new bonus talent. Or you can just never wake him up. This isn't a choice because a choice should be between two things of equal or incomparable value, which this isn't.
I'm not saying there aren't choices in the game. There are.
Oh, I don't, I do every side quest in every rpg I ever play, I can't help it. I'm just pointing out how some people can feel it is short because the main plot quests are short.
I guess I'd call a long jrpg a 100 floor tower with only 1 room. I still like em though, nothing wrong with a linier story, it's why I still enjoy books, movies, and fps.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Grunt's recruitment mission was brutal as a noob Adept on Insanity. For some stupid reason I didn't bring anyone that could drop shields fast so I had like Jacob and Jack or some other bad combination, was so epic when I finished that mission, was like completely out of medi gel, half my squad was dead after every fight. I'd be there plunking away with my bad machine pistol and warp/reave.
I'm pretty sure most people really don't care about which upgrade they get. For most people, the choice is between "save the workers" and "kill that bastard Vito". Renegade also gives you Zaeed's loyalty for free, so if your P/R levels are low, Renegade is clearly the better option.
Are you really making a min/max argument here? Even if I concede that even matters to the choice being made, more AR damage is a lot better than a little bit more heavy weapon ammo. The resources don't really matter.
And even assuming foreknowledge of which way gives you which upgrade,are people really making the decision based on that information? I would be amazed if people are doing that.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
This reminds me of an idea I had - when this trilogy is over I wouldn't mind seeing bioware return to the mass effect world perhaps hundreds of years later - different characters, different plot.
They've produced a very complete universe and ofcourse you could carry over a save which really COULD affect the world - what Wrex did for the Krogan etc.
According to what?
And part of what made me like ME2 as much as I did is because I was into it enough to not min/max my decisions and actually roleplay to the situations. Zaeed didn't get revenge because Shepard wasn't going to let him burn a foundry of slave-workers to death, not because I wanted this resource or that.
Incoming semantics argument.