I think it's possible for something unethical to occur within the boundaries of an agreed on set of rules governing a risky activity, with willing participants.
I think that extending that to momentary unconsciousness while wrestling is a bit of a stretch.
Honestly, the wrestling discussion here is a big Macguffin to me. I'm much more interested in the connotations of some of the counterarguments that have come up.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I think it's possible for something unethical to occur within the boundaries of an agreed on set of rules governing a risky activity, with willing participants.
I think that extending that to momentary unconsciousness while wrestling is a bit of a stretch.
I don't know if it's a stretch, per se, but I am grappling with the logic a bit.
Come on, I know you're all wrestling with this, just hoping to the rest of us out with a good pun.
Well whatever. Just sleep on it for a minute or two and maybe a good one will take hold in your mind.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I've hit my head on a lot of things but never on the boom of any of the yachts we've had
because we never come about without whoever is on the rudder shouting READY TO COME ABOUT
READY
COMING ABOUT
not that the boom never sweeps over the deck when it's not planned, but in the conditions where that can happen we wouldn't be up on the deck unless absolutely necessary anyway
because then you would have more than concussion to deal with it, you'd probably be punched right into the ocean where you'd freeze to death
I've never been popped in the head with a boom. Most of the sailing injuries I saw came from handling ropes improperly. Or why we call my dad Stumpy.
I've hit my head on a lot of things but never on the boom of any of the yachts we've had
because we never come about without whoever is on the rudder shouting READY TO COME ABOUT
READY
COMING ABOUT
not that the boom never sweeps over the deck when it's not planned, but in the conditions where that can happen we wouldn't be up on the deck unless absolutely necessary anyway
because then you would have more than concussion to deal with it, you'd probably be punched right into the ocean where you'd freeze to death
I've never been popped in the head with a boom. Most of the sailing injuries I saw came from handling ropes improperly. Or why we call my dad Stumpy.
The boom on my family's catamaran really hates me. It has tried multiple times to kill me.
You should learn to duck
the problem on the dinghies is that the boom is like a knee high
godamn does it hurt if you ducked just a few centimetres too little
Nah, I can duck. I don't get hit. But it seems to really flip out when I'm on board.
It's only a few feet up though. Probably more than a dinghy but pretty low.
the boom generally does not have a will of it's own :P
EDIT: Also, yeah, that's even more annoying when they're that height
I mean if I don't plan or anticipate for a coming about, or whatever the english term for the sail changing sides is, in an Europa, I get it in my stomach, it's only near my head when I'm crawling underneath it
We actually have a Kendo school near me. Once I finally go to M-F days at work, I am going to sign up.
It definitely looks like a lot of fun but is a bit too much of a sport for my personal taste. Also looks like a tremendous work out.
I am just sad that my dad sold my grandfather's katana. I would have loved to be able to actually have a use for it since it was the real deal taken off an officer during WW2 and all. I think it would be the honorable thing to do to memorialize both my grandfather and the officer.
Too bad that chance is gone now.
Your grandfather got lucky getting that out. The military confiscated as many as they could from GIs. Supposedly they threw a couple thousand into Tokyo bay.
But you don't use a katana in Kendo. The forms are based off the classical fighting style but are really designed for the light weight of the bamboo. Now some schools do teach the classical forms for training and strength.
But yeah, Kendo is very specifically designed.
Also if you do it, you legs will have pain in muscles that you didn't know existed.
I think it's possible for something unethical to occur within the boundaries of an agreed on set of rules governing a risky activity, with willing participants.
I think that extending that to momentary unconsciousness while wrestling is a bit of a stretch.
Honestly, the wrestling discussion here is a big Macguffin to me. I'm much more interested in the connotations of some of the counterarguments that have come up.
There is a bit of a worrying undercurrent of "It can't be unethical if consent exists", yeah.
I think it's possible for something unethical to occur within the boundaries of an agreed on set of rules governing a risky activity, with willing participants.
I think that extending that to momentary unconsciousness while wrestling is a bit of a stretch.
Honestly, the wrestling discussion here is a big Macguffin to me. I'm much more interested in the connotations of some of the counterarguments that have come up.
Frankly, I found your comment about "potential harm" a little weird. Does only physical harm matter? In any win/loss sport, there's a very high likelihood of harm. Is gambling immoral because, by winning money from someone, they may not be able to eat or pay their rent or whatever else? Where does personal initiative and responsibility come in and where does it end? If I walk into a casino, can I really blame them if I shove my entire paycheck through a slot machine and come home empty handed?
As people have pointed out, when two people wrestle, there is either an explicit or implicit understanding of what could happen and how to get out of a situation where you feel you may come to harm. You tap out. And are you arguing that both parties are acting unethically for engaging in an activity that might cause the other person harm, or are they acting unethically in engaging in something that might cause themselves harm? Or are both of these separate ethical concerns?
Honestly I should ask this girl out on a date we've had like 28 messages
but
my car's in the shop
She/you are unable to take public transport into a city centre for you to watch a movie together/eat dinner/whatevs?
The car is the seat of an Americans power and virility. Without it, he is nothing.
I think showing up to a first date without a car is kind of a bad first impression yeh
Here, few people own a car. None of my friends do, for example. But I'm sure this wouldn't work in most American cities. The whole thing where you're a loser if you have no car I don't really get though.
Gambling is immoral. Not the gamblers themselves because their responsibility is partly relieved by the incredibly addictive nature of such a thing, but the casinos and locations offering gambling yet always maintaining "house edge" are frightfully immoral.
All this sword talk has gotten me pumped up. I think I'm going to go do some practice lunges in the back.
No fair! I want to practice too..... too bad I need to learn something to practice..... plus I think waving a kendo stick around at work might not go over well....
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I've hit my head on a lot of things but never on the boom of any of the yachts we've had
because we never come about without whoever is on the rudder shouting READY TO COME ABOUT
READY
COMING ABOUT
not that the boom never sweeps over the deck when it's not planned, but in the conditions where that can happen we wouldn't be up on the deck unless absolutely necessary anyway
because then you would have more than concussion to deal with it, you'd probably be punched right into the ocean where you'd freeze to death
I've never been popped in the head with a boom. Most of the sailing injuries I saw came from handling ropes improperly. Or why we call my dad Stumpy.
what the fuck!
He was guiding rope into a capstan when he got his middle finger of his left hand caught up in some tangled line. Not sure exactly what happened after that but he lost the tip of that finger. Hence the nickname Stumpy.
Honestly I should ask this girl out on a date we've had like 28 messages
but
my car's in the shop
She/you are unable to take public transport into a city centre for you to watch a movie together/eat dinner/whatevs?
The car is the seat of an Americans power and virility. Without it, he is nothing.
I think showing up to a first date without a car is kind of a bad first impression yeh
Here, few people own a car. None of my friends do, for example. But I'm sure this wouldn't work in most American cities. The whole thing where you're a loser if you have no car I don't really get though.
It's hard to go anywhere without a car in most of the country, as public transportation tends to be a joke.
Honestly I should ask this girl out on a date we've had like 28 messages
but
my car's in the shop
She/you are unable to take public transport into a city centre for you to watch a movie together/eat dinner/whatevs?
The car is the seat of an Americans power and virility. Without it, he is nothing.
I think showing up to a first date without a car is kind of a bad first impression yeh
Here, few people own a car. None of my friends do, for example. But I'm sure this wouldn't work in most American cities. The whole thing where you're a loser if you have no car I don't really get though.
There's... two people my age who have cars that I can think of
The statement "there are no ethics involved here" was something I found much more disturbing than the actual wrestling conversation.
You're being extremely pedantic. If you stop taking everything so literally then most of your objections will evaporate.
Fourth, the attitude that "you don't wrestle, therefore you don't know" is, frankly, flatly retarded. You're right, I don't wrestle, and I don't play football. Why? Because I don't want to put myself in a situation where brain injury is a commonplace outcome. To say that high-risk behaviors, particularly behaviors where you're an instrumental part of the risk other people, are immune from criticism unless the critical observer engages in those high-risk behaviors himself is pretty much pants-on-head. Would you say that I can't comment on drunk driving until I've driven drunk? If there's an aspect to it that my lack of experience leads me to be blind to, then absolutely voice it, and I'll give credence to the experiences of those who engage in the behavior, but saying "You don't know shit about what you're talking about" without any further follow-up is an attempt to terminate discussion.
That was not the point I raised. I don't know if someone else said something like this or you're just strawmanning - if the former then I apologise - but what I was doing was explaining the context of the incident chu described, for the benefit of Daxon and others who took issue with that particular incident. Specifically: tapping out is a necessary part of wrestling and the person who is under stress has the responsibility to do so, assuming they are aware of this responsibility; it was wrong to blame chu for not somehow knowing the guy was blacking out and letting up the choke. This had nothing to do with the morality of the sport as a whole, since as far as I know that hadn't even been brought up yet.
Fifth, the attitude that Chu didn't cause the blackout, the other guy did by not tapping out, is also pretty bizarre. Chu clearly caused the blackout, it was his arm around the other guy's neck. Responsibility is not zero-sum, and both parties can share responsibility.
If I engage a barber for a shave and then wildly, purposefully jerk my head during the proceedings, it's my fault I get cut. Similarly, if I engage in a sport and purposefully flout the rules that are in place specifically for safety, then it's my fault if I get hurt. It's more or less pointless to try and quantify blame and assign part of it to the barber or sporting partner in these cases.
Sixth, and this is important: Chu, none of my comments are meant as aspersions on your or anybody else's character. I'm basically saying, "Hey, this behavior causes cumulative damage and people probably shouldn't do it." I'm not saying "People who do this are bad people."
Noted.
The most relevant aspect of this discussion is: does a blackout due to momentary hypoxia cause enough harm to be worthy of attention? Almost everything else discussed thus far is noise.
Disagreed, obviously. I see that to be one of the least relevant parts of the discussion.
Gambling is immoral. Not the gamblers themselves because their responsibility is partly relieved by the incredibly addictive nature of such a thing, but the casinos and locations offering gambling yet always maintaining "house edge" are frightfully immoral.
So what about four people that play poker for real moniez in each other's homes? No casino, no house...
Or what about just something like, I dunno, Backgammon or Chess? When you win against someone else, there is emotional harm. Loss causes harm. It doesn't have to be physical. I wonder if Feral doesn't agree with that, or if he believes all sports, competitions, and contests are immortal to some degree, or if the amount of potential harm matters (and if the latter - what is the over/under meridian for immorality).
I've hit my head on a lot of things but never on the boom of any of the yachts we've had
because we never come about without whoever is on the rudder shouting READY TO COME ABOUT
READY
COMING ABOUT
not that the boom never sweeps over the deck when it's not planned, but in the conditions where that can happen we wouldn't be up on the deck unless absolutely necessary anyway
because then you would have more than concussion to deal with it, you'd probably be punched right into the ocean where you'd freeze to death
I've never been popped in the head with a boom. Most of the sailing injuries I saw came from handling ropes improperly. Or why we call my dad Stumpy.
what the fuck!
He was guiding rope into a capstan when he got his middle finger of his left hand caught up in some tangled line. Not sure exactly what happened after that but he lost the tip of that finger. Hence the nickname Stumpy.
huh
never had any incidents with winches (as we call them), really
So my mom gets this guilt trip email from my brother, saying that she hasn't visited her only grandchild in a year and blah blah blah. Naturally this preys on my mom's mind, and she immediately starts trying to half-ass plan a "emergency" trip to California for next month. This is in spite of the fact that we will be going to California this summer for the scattering of Ken's ashes.
So my mom is on me to find her a plane ticket. I get online, find her a ticket that she likes, but she hasn't gotten a hold of my brother or her friend, the two people who could potentially pick her up at the airport.
The southwest website doesn't have a 'save this for later' option either. It's buy now or try back later. She gets ahold of my brother on the phone. He says he's busy and will check his schedule later. My mom tries to hand the phone to me. The fuck? I want to talk to this assclown why exactly? I decline, and she tells him we'll look again later when he gets back to her. I close the web page. Then he says wait nevermind he'll go look. She says "Your brother already closed the web site."
I walk away in disgust, because seriously WTF? You guilt your mom into visiting you then when she calls you're too busy to check your schedule right now.
Honestly I should ask this girl out on a date we've had like 28 messages
but
my car's in the shop
She/you are unable to take public transport into a city centre for you to watch a movie together/eat dinner/whatevs?
The car is the seat of an Americans power and virility. Without it, he is nothing.
I think showing up to a first date without a car is kind of a bad first impression yeh
Here, few people own a car. None of my friends do, for example. But I'm sure this wouldn't work in most American cities. The whole thing where you're a loser if you have no car I don't really get though.
There's... two people my age who have cars that I can think of
I'd guess car ownership was slightly more widespread in Norway than here though, but yeah.
I've hit my head on a lot of things but never on the boom of any of the yachts we've had
because we never come about without whoever is on the rudder shouting READY TO COME ABOUT
READY
COMING ABOUT
not that the boom never sweeps over the deck when it's not planned, but in the conditions where that can happen we wouldn't be up on the deck unless absolutely necessary anyway
because then you would have more than concussion to deal with it, you'd probably be punched right into the ocean where you'd freeze to death
I've never been popped in the head with a boom. Most of the sailing injuries I saw came from handling ropes improperly. Or why we call my dad Stumpy.
what the fuck!
He was guiding rope into a capstan when he got his middle finger of his left hand caught up in some tangled line. Not sure exactly what happened after that but he lost the tip of that finger. Hence the nickname Stumpy.
huh
never had any incidents with winches (as we call them), really
I heard there was a big problem with them back in the late 1700s in Massachusetts.
Well, that's just a silly statement. I know that historical fencers used to take wounds through the torso without necessarily being incapacitated, whereas a connecting blow with a samurai sword is probably less easy to shrug off. I wouldn't have any clue who would actually have the advantage, but the weight and length of the sword definitely has an effect.
Uh...what? No, you are pretty much dead. Maybe not instantly dead, maybe your brain might take a second to catch up to just how dead you are. There is pretty much no way a blade is going in one side and out the other of you without puncturing something vital to living or you bleeding to death.
You are actually more likely to die from a thrusting weapon like a rapier than a cutting weapon like a katana.
Sorry, should have said "to the torso". And it's possible I'm confusing the Three Musketeers and reality again.
Gambling is immoral. Not the gamblers themselves because their responsibility is partly relieved by the incredibly addictive nature of such a thing, but the casinos and locations offering gambling yet always maintaining "house edge" are frightfully immoral.
So what about four people that play poker for real moniez in each other's homes? No casino, no house...
Or what about just something like, I dunno, Backgammon or Chess? When you win against someone else, there is emotional harm. Loss causes harm. It doesn't have to be physical. I wonder if Feral doesn't agree with that, or if he believes all sports, competitions, and contests are immortal to some degree, or if the amount of potential harm matters (and if the latter - what is the over/under meridian for immorality).
Answer to your question is in the quote.
The casinos and locations offering gambling yet always maintaining a "house edge" are frightfully immoral. Rest, meh.
Daxon on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I've hit my head on a lot of things but never on the boom of any of the yachts we've had
because we never come about without whoever is on the rudder shouting READY TO COME ABOUT
READY
COMING ABOUT
not that the boom never sweeps over the deck when it's not planned, but in the conditions where that can happen we wouldn't be up on the deck unless absolutely necessary anyway
because then you would have more than concussion to deal with it, you'd probably be punched right into the ocean where you'd freeze to death
I've never been popped in the head with a boom. Most of the sailing injuries I saw came from handling ropes improperly. Or why we call my dad Stumpy.
what the fuck!
He was guiding rope into a capstan when he got his middle finger of his left hand caught up in some tangled line. Not sure exactly what happened after that but he lost the tip of that finger. Hence the nickname Stumpy.
huh
never had any incidents with winches (as we call them), really
I've also seen some people break fingers when winding rope on cleats. Also one idiot who grabbed a rapidly moving rope without a glove.
Frankly, I found your comment about "potential harm" a little weird. Does only physical harm matter? In any win/loss sport, there's a very high likelihood of harm. Is gambling immoral because, by winning money from someone, they may not be able to eat or pay their rent or whatever else? Where does personal initiative and responsibility come in and where does it end? If I walk into a casino, can I really blame them if I shove my entire paycheck through a slot machine and come home empty handed?
I feel that casinos have a moral responsibility to minimize the effects of compulsive gambling. If it's impossible for a casino to effectively do so and stay in business (I don't know if it is or not), then it may be impossible for casinos to operate in an ethical manner.
And are you arguing that both parties are acting unethically for engaging in an activity that might cause the other person harm, or are they acting unethically in engaging in something that might cause themselves harm? Or are both of these separate ethical concerns?
Primarily the bolded part. I do think that there is a very minor moral responsibility to take care of oneself; I don't think that self-harm is morally neutral just because you're doing it to yourself.
But mostly it's that I don't want to be instrumental in causing long-term harm to somebody, even if they consent. This is why, for instance, I won't engage in erotic asphyxiation. I've choked partners before and I regret it; there was no loss of consciousness nor any reason to suspect that any long-term harm was done, but upon looking at it in retrospect after the act I realized that the level of risk was outside of something that I'm comfortable with.
In short, I don't think that consent completely abrogates a person's responsibility to control risk and minimize irreversible harm. It's certainly a factor to consider, but it's not a free pass.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
If the wrestling argument had been two people involved in a BDSM breath control game I bet the lineup of where people fell on which side would have been different.
Well, that's just a silly statement. I know that historical fencers used to take wounds through the torso without necessarily being incapacitated, whereas a connecting blow with a samurai sword is probably less easy to shrug off. I wouldn't have any clue who would actually have the advantage, but the weight and length of the sword definitely has an effect.
Uh...what? No, you are pretty much dead. Maybe not instantly dead, maybe your brain might take a second to catch up to just how dead you are. There is pretty much no way a blade is going in one side and out the other of you without puncturing something vital to living or you bleeding to death.
You are actually more likely to die from a thrusting weapon like a rapier than a cutting weapon like a katana.
Sorry, should have said "to the torso". And it's possible I'm confusing the Three Musketeers and reality again.
there have been duels where both parties where run through, several times
none of them survived, of course, when medical science was based on leeches, bleeding, and rubbing dirt on it
Posts
no but his reason is why I think vice-versa
permanent bodily harm icks me out
Honestly, the wrestling discussion here is a big Macguffin to me. I'm much more interested in the connotations of some of the counterarguments that have come up.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Well whatever. Just sleep on it for a minute or two and maybe a good one will take hold in your mind.
That is a very real possibility, but how likely would it be?
I've never been popped in the head with a boom. Most of the sailing injuries I saw came from handling ropes improperly. Or why we call my dad Stumpy.
you got, well
pain
what the fuck!
the boom generally does not have a will of it's own :P
EDIT: Also, yeah, that's even more annoying when they're that height
I mean if I don't plan or anticipate for a coming about, or whatever the english term for the sail changing sides is, in an Europa, I get it in my stomach, it's only near my head when I'm crawling underneath it
Your grandfather got lucky getting that out. The military confiscated as many as they could from GIs. Supposedly they threw a couple thousand into Tokyo bay.
But you don't use a katana in Kendo. The forms are based off the classical fighting style but are really designed for the light weight of the bamboo. Now some schools do teach the classical forms for training and strength.
But yeah, Kendo is very specifically designed.
Also if you do it, you legs will have pain in muscles that you didn't know existed.
There is a bit of a worrying undercurrent of "It can't be unethical if consent exists", yeah.
Frankly, I found your comment about "potential harm" a little weird. Does only physical harm matter? In any win/loss sport, there's a very high likelihood of harm. Is gambling immoral because, by winning money from someone, they may not be able to eat or pay their rent or whatever else? Where does personal initiative and responsibility come in and where does it end? If I walk into a casino, can I really blame them if I shove my entire paycheck through a slot machine and come home empty handed?
As people have pointed out, when two people wrestle, there is either an explicit or implicit understanding of what could happen and how to get out of a situation where you feel you may come to harm. You tap out. And are you arguing that both parties are acting unethically for engaging in an activity that might cause the other person harm, or are they acting unethically in engaging in something that might cause themselves harm? Or are both of these separate ethical concerns?
i think you're inflating the dangers of grappling (wildly so) in a way that makes ethical considerations seem more germane than they actually are
also, i think this entire thing could have been avoided by you initially saying "oh, you grapple, i think that's not a good thing to do"
because the particular approach seemed a lot like "you did X in Y way? well that's bad"
Haha, that's true.
I only sail once a year, in a Hobie Cat, on this specific lake. I think part of it is that the wind there is REALLY tempermental.
The other part is that I'm just plain not well practiced :P
Here, few people own a car. None of my friends do, for example. But I'm sure this wouldn't work in most American cities. The whole thing where you're a loser if you have no car I don't really get though.
because it can swing over really, really violently
I bet it would suck pretty hard
No fair! I want to practice too..... too bad I need to learn something to practice..... plus I think waving a kendo stick around at work might not go over well....
He was guiding rope into a capstan when he got his middle finger of his left hand caught up in some tangled line. Not sure exactly what happened after that but he lost the tip of that finger. Hence the nickname Stumpy.
There's... two people my age who have cars that I can think of
That was not the point I raised. I don't know if someone else said something like this or you're just strawmanning - if the former then I apologise - but what I was doing was explaining the context of the incident chu described, for the benefit of Daxon and others who took issue with that particular incident. Specifically: tapping out is a necessary part of wrestling and the person who is under stress has the responsibility to do so, assuming they are aware of this responsibility; it was wrong to blame chu for not somehow knowing the guy was blacking out and letting up the choke. This had nothing to do with the morality of the sport as a whole, since as far as I know that hadn't even been brought up yet.
If I engage a barber for a shave and then wildly, purposefully jerk my head during the proceedings, it's my fault I get cut. Similarly, if I engage in a sport and purposefully flout the rules that are in place specifically for safety, then it's my fault if I get hurt. It's more or less pointless to try and quantify blame and assign part of it to the barber or sporting partner in these cases.
Noted.
Disagreed, obviously. I see that to be one of the least relevant parts of the discussion.
So what about four people that play poker for real moniez in each other's homes? No casino, no house...
Or what about just something like, I dunno, Backgammon or Chess? When you win against someone else, there is emotional harm. Loss causes harm. It doesn't have to be physical. I wonder if Feral doesn't agree with that, or if he believes all sports, competitions, and contests are immortal to some degree, or if the amount of potential harm matters (and if the latter - what is the over/under meridian for immorality).
Having said that I live ten minutes walk from the cross city rail line and have a variety of bus stops within five minutes walk.
huh
never had any incidents with winches (as we call them), really
So my mom is on me to find her a plane ticket. I get online, find her a ticket that she likes, but she hasn't gotten a hold of my brother or her friend, the two people who could potentially pick her up at the airport.
The southwest website doesn't have a 'save this for later' option either. It's buy now or try back later. She gets ahold of my brother on the phone. He says he's busy and will check his schedule later. My mom tries to hand the phone to me. The fuck? I want to talk to this assclown why exactly? I decline, and she tells him we'll look again later when he gets back to her. I close the web page. Then he says wait nevermind he'll go look. She says "Your brother already closed the web site."
I walk away in disgust, because seriously WTF? You guilt your mom into visiting you then when she calls you're too busy to check your schedule right now.
kind of nasty out there right now, though
I'd guess car ownership was slightly more widespread in Norway than here though, but yeah.
I heard there was a big problem with them back in the late 1700s in Massachusetts.
Sorry, should have said "to the torso". And it's possible I'm confusing the Three Musketeers and reality again.
Answer to your question is in the quote.
The casinos and locations offering gambling yet always maintaining a "house edge" are frightfully immoral. Rest, meh.
I've also seen some people break fingers when winding rope on cleats. Also one idiot who grabbed a rapidly moving rope without a glove.
I feel that casinos have a moral responsibility to minimize the effects of compulsive gambling. If it's impossible for a casino to effectively do so and stay in business (I don't know if it is or not), then it may be impossible for casinos to operate in an ethical manner.
Primarily the bolded part. I do think that there is a very minor moral responsibility to take care of oneself; I don't think that self-harm is morally neutral just because you're doing it to yourself.
But mostly it's that I don't want to be instrumental in causing long-term harm to somebody, even if they consent. This is why, for instance, I won't engage in erotic asphyxiation. I've choked partners before and I regret it; there was no loss of consciousness nor any reason to suspect that any long-term harm was done, but upon looking at it in retrospect after the act I realized that the level of risk was outside of something that I'm comfortable with.
In short, I don't think that consent completely abrogates a person's responsibility to control risk and minimize irreversible harm. It's certainly a factor to consider, but it's not a free pass.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Just, impossible to navigate through the damned town due to lack of a MAP or a USEFUL WEBSITE. But quite all right besides that.
If my arms could reach to california I would cockpunch him.
there have been duels where both parties where run through, several times
none of them survived, of course, when medical science was based on leeches, bleeding, and rubbing dirt on it