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A Song of Ice and Fire - Here Be Spoilers. Book People! Discuss the TV Show Here!

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Posts

  • BalefuegoBalefuego regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    DotDotDash wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    Part of me is depressed that, on the game of thrones website, in the family tree section
    The name Ned gives as the mother of Jon is in airquotes, "Wylla".

    I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.

    If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.

    not a supporter huh?

    sheesh, its pretty much a given at this point.
    I think a lot will be answered when Barristan is a POV character. When he said he had a bunch of stuff to tell Dany; if Jon Snow is her nephew, that would be the first thing to say. Plus he would have to know; half the kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy.
    The thing is, Barristan probably doesn't know the whole story. He may know that a baby was coming (I still think R+L were married...otherwise who has the authority to make Jon a legitimate heir?)...but I don't think he can be SURE that the bastard Ned claimed was actually born in the Tower of Joy.
    Half the Kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy.. but not Barristan, he was fighting in the war pretty much the whole time. He wouldn't know


    But there is literally no way R+L=J isn't true, the evidence is overwhelming

    Balefuego on
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  • the Togfatherthe Togfather Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Tarantio wrote: »
    Isn't Shae
    way too young to be Jon's mother?

    They just addressed that with...
    "maybe dragons age differently?"

    A fascinating thread I tell you.

    the Togfather on
    The night is dark and full of terrors.
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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Balefuego wrote: »
    DotDotDash wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    Part of me is depressed that, on the game of thrones website, in the family tree section
    The name Ned gives as the mother of Jon is in airquotes, "Wylla".

    I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.

    If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.

    not a supporter huh?

    sheesh, its pretty much a given at this point.
    I think a lot will be answered when Barristan is a POV character. When he said he had a bunch of stuff to tell Dany; if Jon Snow is her nephew, that would be the first thing to say. Plus he would have to know; half the kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy.
    The thing is, Barristan probably doesn't know the whole story. He may know that a baby was coming (I still think R+L were married...otherwise who has the authority to make Jon a legitimate heir?)...but I don't think he can be SURE that the bastard Ned claimed was actually born in the Tower of Joy.
    Half the Kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy.. but not Barristan, he was fighting in the war pretty much the whole time. He wouldn't know


    But there is literally no way R+L=J isn't true, the evidence is overwhelming

    As the head of the Kingsguard, wouldn't Barristan
    have some idea of where the other 6 were and why? There's that log book...it'll be interesting if Jaime reads something interesting about that time.

    Here's a fun one...what if R+L=someone else, and Ned felt the need to show up with a Bastard to help provide cover for hiding the real baby? Yeah, I know, lots of evidence against it...mostly the blue rose in a wall of ice.

    Doctor Detroit on
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Barristan was not the head of Kingsguard during Aerys. Gerold Hightower, the White Bull was. He died in the Tower of Joy.

    DarkCrawler on
  • galenbladegalenblade regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Barristan was not the head of Kingsguard during Aerys. Gerold Hightower, the White Bull was. He died in the Tower of Joy.
    Yeah. The only person who could legitimately validate Jon's parentage is Howland Reed, of the crannogmen. He fought alongside Ned at the Tower of Joy, and was the only person to survive it beside him. He's going to be the one to make the reveal, unless he mentioned it to others.

    galenblade on
    linksig.jpg
  • CadmusCadmus regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Wappadu wrote: »
    Didn't Ned support Robert because he was the eldest Baratheon and that family had the most Targaryen blood out of the major houses? I wonder if Ned would have supported Rhaegar and tried to end the rebellion if Jaime had acted sooner in taking out Aerys.

    Ned didn't push for Viserys to take the throne as the next Targaryen in line, which is a fatal flaw in his Baratheon royal blood ties reasoning. I must be remembering it wrong.

    Robert's 'royal' blood is tenuous at best, there's a lot more families with royal blood, the Daynes for one. I can't remember his name but Dondarion's squire even has the silver hair of a targaryen. I think Arthur Dayne and his brother (the squire's father? uncle?) both did as well.

    Cadmus on
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Daynes aren't related to Targaryens in any way...they are an old Dornish family.

    Anyway, any blood line claims from any family are kind of silly and obvious excuses. Velaryons are probably the closest since they are actually a Valyrian House themselves and intermarried with the Targaryens quite a lot.

    DarkCrawler on
  • hailthefishhailthefish regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Think it was more that Robert was the one -on their side- with the most Targaryen links.

    hailthefish on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    yeah Robert's great aunt or something like that was targaryen

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Orys Baratheon was the founder of the house, and he was rumored to be the bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror.

    Hachface on
  • metaghostmetaghost regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Tangentially - I hope we get to see more of Darkstar Dayne, whose real first name escapes me, as the Dayne family seems like they could have been an interesting element had GRRM brought Dorne into the series a bit earlier. Though I suppose I can't remember if many of the Daynes still live at this point in Westeros' history.

    Every Dayne ever mentioned seems to possess a certain quality of importance, they just all exist in the background.

    metaghost on
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  • BalefuegoBalefuego regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Edric Dayne is still around

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    ...issue raised in the TV thread:

    Would Stannis make a good king?
    No.

    Hachface on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Stannis has proved many times over by now that he would be an awful king

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fizban140Fizban140 regular Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    He would make the best king they have had in a very long time.

    Fizban140 on
    533570-1.png
  • BalefuegoBalefuego regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    as if I needed any more proof that Fizban lives on an entirely different plane of reality from the rest of us

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fizban140Fizban140 regular Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    Balefuego wrote: »
    as if I needed any more proof that Fizban lives on an entirely different plane of reality from the rest of us

    Cool argument bro.

    Lots of facts and stuff.

    Fizban140 on
    533570-1.png
  • SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Book 3 spoilers:
    Is anyone else expecting the Red Wedding to be a disappointment in the show compared to how it was presented in the novel? I mean, it was just SO well done in the books that I can't imagine any director pulling it off the way I see it in my head.

    If they don't have a bard singing that creepy fucking song while they butcher the Stark bannermen and Walder Frey sits and watches, it won't even compare.

    Spawnbroker on
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  • Fizban140Fizban140 regular Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    Book 3 spoilers:
    Is anyone else expecting the Red Wedding to be a disappointment in the show compared to how it was presented in the novel? I mean, it was just SO well done in the books that I can't imagine any director pulling it off the way I see it in my head.

    If they don't have a bard singing that creepy fucking song while they butcher the Stark bannermen and Walder Frey sits and watches, it won't even compare.

    I don't see it even being done without being obvious.

    Fizban140 on
    533570-1.png
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Book 3 spoilers:
    Is anyone else expecting the Red Wedding to be a disappointment in the show compared to how it was presented in the novel? I mean, it was just SO well done in the books that I can't imagine any director pulling it off the way I see it in my head.

    If they don't have a bard singing that creepy fucking song while they butcher the Stark bannermen and Walder Frey sits and watches, it won't even compare.

    Special guest director:
    Lars von Trier

    Hachface on
  • hailthefishhailthefish regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    That'll be hard to pull off without being 100% obvious that something bad is about to happen.

    hailthefish on
  • Fizban140Fizban140 regular Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    Violins.

    Fizban140 on
    533570-1.png
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Stannis has proved many times over by now that he would be an awful king

    I'm not really certain about that.

    He's shown a self-awareness about his own faults in the past and keeps people around who would call him on it. He might just be smart enough to back the fuck off aside from giving general direction. I don't think he, if he inherited under normal circumstances, would be a really terrible king. He sure as fuck would stop this whole "Up to our eyeballs in debt" thing that has been going on.

    In the current situation he would likely have to execute half the fucking realm though. He doesn't really have a path to a peace even if he could triumph militarily.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Yeah, Stannis' problem has always been rigidity and an adherence to the rules. That doesn't make him a bad King. And certainly wouldn't under normal circumstances.

    shryke on
  • hailthefishhailthefish regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Stannis is even more of an uncompromising, honor-and-rules-bound uptight hardass than Ned. By like, a factor of 12.

    Edit: He also lacks the charisma to really lead people or make friends, and he doesn't have the military strength to triumph by himself.

    hailthefish on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Stannis is even more of an uncompromising, honor-and-rules-bound uptight hardass than Ned. By like, a factor of 12.

    Edit: He also lacks the charisma to really lead people or make friends, and he doesn't have the military strength to triumph by himself.

    Yea, well Ned wouldn't make a bad king. He handled Bolton for years, his issue going south was he had no clue how fucked things were down there.

    Point 2 is half right, he's an effective war leader but a horrible fucking inspiring one. Three isn't really relevant to the question at hand.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
  • JavenJaven regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Rigidity would be the worst quality to have in a place like Westeros, where nobles regularly field their own armies and are allowed huge amounts of autonomy. He'd piss off way too many people to be an effective ruler.

    Javen on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    No king could be effective without skill in Westerosi realpolitik. Ned wouldn't have lasted long.

    Hachface on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Hachface wrote: »
    No king could be effective without skill in Westerosi realpolitik. Ned wouldn't have lasted long.

    .......you say this after Robert lasted 16+ years.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Hachface wrote: »
    No king could be effective without skill in Westerosi realpolitik. Ned wouldn't have lasted long.

    .......you say this after Robert lasted 16+ years.

    Point the first: Robert was not an effective king.
    Point the second: Robert survived as long as he did because he really did not give a shit about what was happening to the realm. Ned would actually try to run the country responsibly and piss off powerful people in the process.

    Hachface on
  • hailthefishhailthefish regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Robert survived 16 years because he let everyone do whatever they wanted, and on the few occasions where he didn't want what they wanted, he used his inspirational abilities as a war leader and beat the living shit out of them.

    hailthefish on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Hachface wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    No king could be effective without skill in Westerosi realpolitik. Ned wouldn't have lasted long.

    .......you say this after Robert lasted 16+ years.

    Point the first: Robert was not an effective king.
    Point the second: Robert survived as long as he did because he really did not give a shit about what was happening to the realm. Ned would actually try to run the country responsibly and piss off powerful people in the process.

    Eh.

    This is a question of timing but if Ned had been King in place of Robert he would have had no problems what so ever from these "powerful" people. Despite how much people like to claim he sucks at politics he would have pretty unshakeable support from The North, The Riverlands, The Vale and the Reach.

    Even if Dorne and Highgarden somehow managed to work together and join the Lannisters they'd still be pretty fucked and Highgarden has zero reason to do it in the first place and Dorne is unlikely to try and avenge Elia by working with her murderer.

    That's assuming he somehow unnecessarily provokes the Lannisters. He probably could have won Tywin's undying support by stripping Jamie of the white. Ned would like to do it given the whole Aerys thing and Tywin would (secretly) be all for it if it gave him his heir back.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
  • dojangodojango regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Robert survived 16 years because he let everyone do whatever they wanted, and on the few occasions where he didn't want what they wanted, he used his inspirational abilities as a war leader and beat the living shit out of them.

    Also, Jon Arryn was a good hand of the king, ran things well while Robert went out whoring and fighting and running up enormous debts.

    dojango on
  • WappaduWappadu regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Who would be the best king seems pretty moot at this point. Unless someone pulls off a game changer, it looks to me like:

    Others > 7 Idiotic Kingdoms
    Dragons > Others
    Greyjoy > Dragons?

    For better or worse, Westeros needs to get invaded pretty damn quick for everyone's sake. Nobody currently on the continent is prepared for what's coming.

    Wappadu on
  • SmurphSmurph regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I'm really worried about how the show is going to show the battles. I mean they changed the story so that they could avoid showing the battle of the green fork, and that would have been relatively easy. How the heck are they going to do the battle of the blackwater or the stuff that goes on in slaver's bay if they shy away from that little thing?

    Smurph on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Hachface wrote: »
    No king could be effective without skill in Westerosi realpolitik. Ned wouldn't have lasted long.

    Except Ned did great as ruler for the entirety of Robert's rule and would have contiued along had he not been dragged south.

    shryke on
  • the Togfatherthe Togfather Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Smurph wrote: »
    I'm really worried about how the show is going to show the battles. I mean they changed the story so that they could avoid showing the battle of the green fork, and that would have been relatively easy. How the heck are they going to do the battle of the blackwater or the stuff that goes on in slaver's bay if they shy away from that little thing?

    spoilering for further book details...
    I'm not so much worried about Slavers Bay, because even the books really didn't show much of the actual battles...more little bits and pieces, then Dany sitting on some new throne. But the Blackwater worries me greatly. That MUST be a full-on epic battle, with great SFX and whatnot. I can give them a pass w/ the Green Fork and Whispering Wood because there was still just so much to do and say and characters to build upon and tension to build and all that...spending time on a battle, in the context of that episode, wasn't absolutely necessary. But by the time we get to the Blackwater it's all about full-on war.

    the Togfather on
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    twit feed
  • hailthefishhailthefish regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Smurph wrote: »
    I'm really worried about how the show is going to show the battles. I mean they changed the story so that they could avoid showing the battle of the green fork, and that would have been relatively easy. How the heck are they going to do the battle of the blackwater or the stuff that goes on in slaver's bay if they shy away from that little thing?

    My HOPE is that they're saving money skipping out on the puny early battles so they can show us at least SOME of the major battles. I would be totally OK if they did it Rome style and just showed relevant characters + montage of fighting + aftermath.

    hailthefish on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Smurph wrote: »
    I'm really worried about how the show is going to show the battles. I mean they changed the story so that they could avoid showing the battle of the green fork, and that would have been relatively easy. How the heck are they going to do the battle of the blackwater or the stuff that goes on in slaver's bay if they shy away from that little thing?

    spoilering for further book details...
    I'm not so much worried about Slavers Bay, because even the books really didn't show much of the actual battles...more little bits and pieces, then Dany sitting on some new throne. But the Blackwater worries me greatly. That MUST be a full-on epic battle, with great SFX and whatnot. I can give them a pass w/ the Green Fork and Whispering Wood because there was still just so much to do and say and characters to build upon and tension to build and all that...spending time on a battle, in the context of that episode, wasn't absolutely necessary. But by the time we get to the Blackwater it's all about full-on war.

    edit:
    here's a link
    http://weblogs.variety.com/on_the_air/2011/04/martin-will-write-the-climactic-battle-episode-of-game-of-thrones-season-2.html

    Book 2/season 2 spoilers
    GRRM himself is going to write episode 8 of season 2, and he implied in an interview that there is a huge battle in that episode that is a big challenge to write. So we'll see!

    Hachface on
  • hailthefishhailthefish regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Now does he mean
    A huge challenge to write the big battle? Or a huge challenge to write a plausible way around having to show the battle?

    hailthefish on
This discussion has been closed.