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    HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Enig wrote: »
    Most of these types of argument can be mitigated by remembering that all video games are a waste of time.
    I've never agreed with that position. To me, nothing is a waste of time if it adds joy to your life, whatever it may be. Playing football, collecting stamps, birdwatching, playing video games or whatever. The whole point to life is to enjoy yourself and be happy, and if video games do that for you, you're never wasting your time doing it.

    Everything in moderation and all that.

    Halfmex on
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    belligerentbelligerent Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    also, there's very much a continuum between something like Paragon, the ones who are sponsored to get world first, and those guilds that like to push progression. I'm hoping that people who aren't rabid devourers of content, but who are focused on whatever endgame is provided, have a place in both the game and this thread.

    belligerent on
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    ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    In regards to no auto attack, I've never played an MMO without it, but I am really looking forward to not having it. All auto attack means is that part of your damage is just this passive white damage flying around without you having to put any work into it. I'd rather have my only damage be the buttons I press. It's more visceral, and it allows them to make the abilities hit harder individually than they would if there was also auto attack in the mix.

    I feel like the only reason auto attack is still around now is that back in the day in like vanilla Everquest, it was almost the only thing melee characters had, so as the genre developed, it just kind of stuck around for no real reason.

    Age of Conan had no auto-attack either.

    Really, if you're the type of player who learns a Rotation/Priority list, you're not going to notice that much difference. Most of the time, I'm waiting for the next ability on my rotation to come up off CD, and the amount of attention I'm paying to my auto attack is pretty nil.

    All it really means is that you're not going to be able to do the old "pull this weak mob, go afk and get a drink" kind of farming.

    Arryn on
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    EnderEnder Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I really hope it also mitigates the ret pally style of play, where everything is on some cooldown, and you oftentimes do nothing but watch your autoattacks periodically.

    Ender on
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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Yeah, I hate when people have fun leveling as quickly as possible. People who enjoy different things than me are stupid.


    Edit: I mean if you want to go slowly and take in all the content as much as you can, that's awesome for you. But to shit on powergamers for being powergamers seems hypocritical, even if you think none of it matters. Long story short, everyone would be better off if they just stopped caring what other people were doing and focused on their own game experience. So long as it doesn't directly impede someone else's, anyway.

    it's not really shitting on them. IMO play the game how you have fun.

    but it was more a realization that playing that was doesn't matter. getting a world first world firsts don't matter. not any more so than somebody who takes their time leveling or is an alt-o-holic.

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    EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Arryn wrote: »
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    In regards to no auto attack, I've never played an MMO without it, but I am really looking forward to not having it. All auto attack means is that part of your damage is just this passive white damage flying around without you having to put any work into it. I'd rather have my only damage be the buttons I press. It's more visceral, and it allows them to make the abilities hit harder individually than they would if there was also auto attack in the mix.

    I feel like the only reason auto attack is still around now is that back in the day in like vanilla Everquest, it was almost the only thing melee characters had, so as the genre developed, it just kind of stuck around for no real reason.

    Age of Conan had no auto-attack either.

    Really, if you're the type of player who learns a Rotation/Priority list, you're not going to notice that much difference. Most of the time, I'm waiting for the next ability on my rotation to come up off CD, and the amount of attention I'm paying to my auto attack is pretty nil.

    All it really means is that you're not going to be able to do the old "pull this weak mob, go afk and get a drink" kind of farming.
    Nobody is saying it really makes a big difference mechanically. It just feels better (visceral, if I want to be buzzwordy). Because every attack your character does is initiated by you, you feel more engaged in combat. It is largely psychological but so what, it makes for a more enjoyable combat experience... :^:

    Maybe it makes more a difference to some people than others though.

    Enig on
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    ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    it's not really shitting on them. IMO play the game how you have fun.

    but it was more a realization that playing that was doesn't matter. getting a world first world firsts don't matter. not any more so than somebody who takes their time leveling or is an alt-o-holic.

    Going to start by saying I agree that they (world firsts, etc) don't matter. Then I'm going to add the caveat to "you and me".

    But we're not everybody. What "matters" as far as enjoyment of a video game, is ultimately subjective. If world first matter to Player X, more power to him.

    The Classic Human Conceit: thinking anyone, anywhere, is anything like yourself.

    As for the "shitting" thing, I think it's language like this that gives that impression:
    Look, you can have a few beers with an old friend and enjoy yourself and benefit from the experience, but if you binge on 22, don't delude yourself the positive aspects outweighed the damage you did to yourself.

    Gaming obsessively is NOT healthy. I think this is pretty hard to dispute. There's a reason why people seek counseling about it. That's because it goes too far and hurts their health and their lives. And if we're all honest, we all know gamers who take a game too far, and those are the people I am talking about. And one way to help those people is to puncture this myth that "gaming skills" are this mythic thing, worthy of envy, instead of just a flimsy extension of over-indulgence.

    Wherein, perhaps unintentionally, Chaos created a bridge that basically boils down to "if you pursue what you consider to be skill in a game (which is an illusion you're an idiot to believe in,) then you have a disease akin to alcoholism."

    Not what he is trying to say, but it's a perception one could easily arrive at.

    Arryn on
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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    ChaosRed wrote: »
    I concede there are elements to a game's design that are positive, but the positive elements of a game can be acquired without having to "race to be first" or brag about accomplishments. Indeed, both of these things counter the very things you suggest are positive. Like anything in life, it is best enjoyed in moderation. That's just common sense, there's no reason to be argumentative about it. Even the gaming companies admit this now and encourage you to PUT THE TOY DOWN - and experience life itself.

    Look, you can have a few beers with an old friend and enjoy yourself and benefit from the experience, but if you binge on 22, don't delude yourself the positive aspects outweighed the damage you did to yourself.

    Gaming obsessively is NOT healthy. I think this is pretty hard to dispute. There's a reason why people seek counseling about it. That's because it goes too far and hurts their health and their lives. And if we're all honest, we all know gamers who take a game too far, and those are the people I am talking about. And one way to help those people is to puncture this myth that "gaming skills" are this mythic thing, worthy of envy, instead of just a flimsy extension of over-indulgence.

    And lets face it, to pwn an MMO completely, is to damage others in your life in the process. They are designed to take a lot of time so that you keep subscribing to them. In fact, they are designed to NEVER end, to NEVER be completed. And you can't continually spend 80 hours a week in a video game and deem that investment of time, "skill" or "healthy". It is neither. If you game at this level, every week for a long period of time, you stopped reaping the positive aspects long ago and you've just become obsessed, likely at the expense of marriage, a job or real friends in the process.

    I agree video games are an underrated medium for the purposes of teaching. I'll even say, that on aggregate, video games are a far healthier activity than television. And TV can be educational too, but watching TV 80 hours a week is a waste of time. Bragging you watched all episodes of "Arrested Development" without sleep or rest, is also a pretty stupid thing. And I happen to love that show.

    Admit it, power gaming to be "first" on a server isn't about "building skill through the medium of video games". It's about bragging you were first, or acquiring some item that you've deluded yourself into thinking it has value. And you'll waste a lot of your time to accomplish it. And when you do, you'll realize nobody cares. And indeed a few years later, you'll even struggle to remember the details of it. And certainly EVERYONE will have forgotten you did it.

    I love video games. I have since the days of the TelStar Ranger (and that reference should open your eyes to how ancient I am). I take pride in my hobby and I am advocate of it. But I also know these games are addictive, dangerously addictive and can be very unhealthy once you obsess over them so utterly that you squander diet, sleep, rest, friendship and income to play them. And so many people who race to be "first" do exactly that.

    Doing anything obsessively isn't healthy. Since an obsession is a "disturbing preoccupation" with something.

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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    But the game doesn't END at max level. Look at wow. The real journey, for me, began at max level. The leveling process can be fun in the beginning but just finishing that content let's you enjoy other content.

    I mean, I've yet to see an mmo have quests that DON'T boil down to fetch, fedex, gather, or kill x amount of things. My sincerest hope is that there's a balance between the journey to get to end level and the content waiting for when you get there.

    It's okay to have differing opinions. It just makes me sad that the people in this thread that aren't "hardcore raiders," whatever that means, are shitting all over people who happen to enjoy that type of content, while the reverse is hardly true at all.

    it might just be a pet peeve, but IMO there's no bigger BS term in gaming than "hardcore." It's really just a term used by people who want to make themselves sound bad ass, while not actually having to try and describe why they are bad ass. Because ultimately if you ask people what makes them hardcore, you're going to get 75 different answers.

    Plus, more often than not, hardcore really translated to: "I reserve the right to be a total douche bag to you if I feel you aren't good enough." I'm sure the negative 50 dkp guild leader thinks he's hardcore.

    Saw a lot of this from guilds and players in WAR and AoC (might be the same in WoW - I dunno cause I don't pay as much attention as I did in WAR).

    Why should we accept you into our guild? Why should I join your guild?

    "Because we're a hardcore PvP and/or Raiding guild!"

    yeah but what does that mean? "Ummm ... just that we're hardcore! and ... umm ... we're going to kick your ass!" Yeah. Great.

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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    juanpierre wrote: »
    But what the hell am I going on about this shit to a bunch of 24 year olds? :D

    Not all of us are college kids ;-)

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    Silas BrownSilas Brown That's hobo style. Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Well obviously no one gives a shit about empty boasting. That's really more of a personal problem. I thought were talking about people who had actually achieved something in the game, not just random internet douchebags.

    Silas Brown on
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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    juanpierre wrote: »
    Reading some stuff on Darth Hater, and it's making me wonder how gameplay will feel with no autoattack.

    No auto attack + quicker universal cooldown = faster, more action packed combat.

    honestly the lack of an auto-attack is why folks watching videos are complaining about the animations and herky-jerkyness of combat in E3 and PAX East videos.

    because you have folks unsure of the skills available, often mouse clicking the abilities. so instead of abilities going off bang, bang, bang like they will in a live environment (when you have your keymapping all setup and know what abilities are on what buttons by memory), there's a slight pause.

    I watched folks play at PAX East for a few hours, and combat looked 10 times better when "faster" players were at the helm, versus say a Star Wars fan who'd never played an MMO before.

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    EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I watched folks play at PAX East for a few hours, and combat looked 10 times better when "faster" players were at the helm, versus say a Star Wars fan who'd never played an MMO before.

    This reminds me of similar problems with the GW2 demos. A lot of the videos we get on the interwebs are with players who have just tried it for the first time, so their movements are clunky, skill use is very slow, etc. They need to show what an experienced player can do more often, as a matter of demonstration. It is much more exciting to watch in that case. I'm sure the same is true of TOR.

    Enig on
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    texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I loved CoH, still play on occassion. I do love the no auto attack...however there was always an option to auto trigger powers after cool down, this made some attacks sort of auto.

    But i also love playing devils advocate...SO, Final Fantasy 14. Yea...no auto attack. Perhaps one of the worst combat systems in any MMO to date. Now was it good?? No. Would auto attack have impoved it...no...so does this really have any merit?? Yes. If the combat is bad in general, auto attack will not matter one way or the other.

    Now, if TOR comes with bad combat it should just consider itself done. So i'm betting that's not the case here. To auto attack or not to auto attack, that is the question. The answer lies entirely on CD and visual effect/variaty of the non-auto attacks.

    See, FF14 had the same, DULL, animations across most of each weapons attacks. Some even on mulitple weapons. Which made it very dull and boring. CoH on the other hand had the same stance on each activation of one power, but each power in the pool looked incredible different. In essence it made the game feel more alive, as opposed to rigid and generic.

    To sum up this very short post, it could be great, and it could be bad...we'll just have to see how it plays out.

    texasheat on
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    juanpierrejuanpierre Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I appreciate the input from people who've played MMOs without autoattacks. Now that I think about it, the only real memory I have of autoattacks really mattering were hunter and rogues, where weapon speed factored into your rotation. Which makes me assume that there'll be no attack speed factor to this game?

    juanpierre on
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    ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    juanpierre wrote: »
    Which makes me assume that there'll be no attack speed factor to this game?

    That's been my experience in games with no AA.

    Arryn on
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    VoodooVVoodooV Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Am I the only one that doesn't really give a shit about the individual mechanics. I've played games with auto attack and games without. It all gets trumped by whether or not the game is just simply fun.

    VoodooV on
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    ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    VoodooV wrote: »
    Am I the only one that doesn't really give a shit about the individual mechanics. I've played games with auto attack and games without. It all gets trumped by whether or not the game is just simply fun.

    Yeah, you're absolutely right. But "no auto-attack" seems to be one of those buzzwords that gets some mmo-players all freaked out for no good reason. It takes them out of their comfort zone. Unfamiliar territory.

    Arryn on
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    NerfThatManNerfThatMan Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jdarksun wrote: »
    No Friday update?

    must be released then

    omw to buy it, brb

    NerfThatMan on
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    EnderEnder Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Arryn wrote: »
    juanpierre wrote: »
    Which makes me assume that there'll be no attack speed factor to this game?

    That's been my experience in games with no AA.

    I assume that with no AA, instead of attack speed factor there will be the animation time factor, a la CoX.

    Whether or not there is a "haste" mechanic to improve animation times is unknown. I imagine that could end up problematic, and possibly silly at high levels of the mechanic, so I tend to fall back on the CoX experience as a good example of what it would be like.

    Ender on
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    ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    Arryn wrote: »
    juanpierre wrote: »
    Which makes me assume that there'll be no attack speed factor to this game?
    That's been my experience in games with no AA.
    I assume that with no AA, instead of attack speed factor there will be the animation time factor...
    It'll be all based on framerate. You'll have to have at least 90 fps to properly pull off lightsaber jumps.

    FPS to Midichlorian ratio?

    Yeah, yeah I used the M word.

    Arryn on
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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Arryn wrote: »
    VoodooV wrote: »
    Am I the only one that doesn't really give a shit about the individual mechanics. I've played games with auto attack and games without. It all gets trumped by whether or not the game is just simply fun.

    Yeah, you're absolutely right. But "no auto-attack" seems to be one of those buzzwords that gets some mmo-players all freaked out for no good reason. It takes them out of their comfort zone. Unfamiliar territory.

    My problem with the non-Auto-Attack MMOs I have played was that they felt a little button-mashy. Champions and City of Heroes in particular. Age of Conan was better, the three different base attacks gave it some choice-making.

    captaink on
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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jdarksun wrote: »
    No Friday update?

    I believe the Friday update might be a couple of Bioware polls posted in their forums.

    Kind of weak but at least generating some discussion.

    http://www.torreport.com/367/two-new-polls-from-bioware-on-official-forums/

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    juanpierrejuanpierre Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    VoodooV wrote: »
    Am I the only one that doesn't really give a shit about the individual mechanics. I've played games with auto attack and games without. It all gets trumped by whether or not the game is just simply fun.

    I wasn't freaking out about it at all. I was just curious how it plays. I've only played WoW as an MMO, and all the RPG games I've played have had autoattack. I think my only experience in games with no autoattack is FPS.

    I'm just a noob asking for the wisdom of my betters. :D

    juanpierre on
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    Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    The most interesting part about the Friday update was this developer blog.

    The very first sentence:
    Writing is complete on Star Wars™: The Old Republic™. The last lines of dialogue are off for recording and translation; only pickups and polish remain.

    :^:

    Maz- on
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    ChaosRedChaosRed Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I agree with the general consensus that AA might not be missed, if the game's play is balanced and effective. I kind of like AA, but I can certainly live without it.

    I am hoping that cover is as good as advertised. In Champions you had this great power to flip away from close conflict to establish another range shot. The animation was awesome. If ranged types have the ability to ninja-flip back to a position of cover, I am so going to love this game. There was a lot of tumbling in Champions, which I rather liked. Is there the ability to throw stuff around too? I see the ability to play a Wookie who picks up small droids and throws them at people, as kind of a fun way to brawl. :) I know, I know, inexplicably Wookie is not a player race.

    I love the idea of "sniping" in Star Wars, playing someone with a long range rifle who hides, waits patiently and nails the opponent with a heavy damage shot, then immediately seeks cover. I am going to enjoy playing that way.

    I pray there's no advantage at all to jumping. What annoys me most about WOW PvP is the amount of god damn "leaping" around everyone does while moving in circles. WOW PvP is just this bizarre, boring ballet.

    You want to see really good PvP, much more interesting than WOW? Play World of Tanks. Now that's some delicious PvP right there.

    ChaosRed on
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    Mnemon-CorbantisMnemon-Corbantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jdarksun wrote: »
    No Friday update?

    I believe the Friday update might be a couple of Bioware polls posted in their forums.

    Kind of weak but at least generating some discussion.

    http://www.torreport.com/367/two-new-polls-from-bioware-on-official-forums/

    btw they threw a curveball. kind of a week Fan Friday, although accompanied by the interesting dev blog post linked by Maz-.

    http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110617

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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    ChaosRed wrote: »
    I pray there's no advantage at all to jumping. What annoys me most about WOW PvP is the amount of god damn "leaping" around everyone does while moving in circles. WOW PvP is just this bizarre, boring ballet.

    You know there's no advantage to jumping in WoW PVP other than being harder to click on or keep up with, which is the same thing as just running around and not jumping, right?

    I can't imagine how you'd get people to just stop moving and let other players target them short of everyone having so many gap closers and leaps and shit you're better off just standing still and letting them hit you.

    I needed anime to post. on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jumping in general seems kind of silly in mmos

    I mean it's fun to jump around I guess, but still


    Something I've been curious about that maybe someone who's followed the game more closely can talk about is how transparent this game is going to be about mechanics. Some MMOs seem determined to hide data from the players, which I don't think really makes sense, and I found myself wondering if the swtor crew feels this way.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    VoodooVVoodooV Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    has it ever been found out if you really can knock enemies off platforms and such as has been shown in a few videos?

    VoodooV on
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    Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    VoodooV wrote: »
    has it ever been found out if you really can knock enemies off platforms and such as has been shown in a few videos?

    In some magazine preview (I think it was PC Gamer?), the author said that he managed to knock an enemy off a ledge, however it caused the enemy to "evade" and thus bug out.



    And about that PvP jumping around thingy, I think I heard that there was some kind of auto-facing mechanic in the game. Don't quote me on that one, though.

    Maz- on
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    GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jumping in general seems kind of silly in mmos

    I mean it's fun to jump around I guess, but still

    I think it's silly when your forward progress is stymied by a foot-tall obstacle. We all have our things.

    Grundlestiltskin on
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    ChaosRedChaosRed Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Just a fatigue factor would be nice. Jumping requires a lot of energy. I can run a mile (or at least jog a mile which at my age is very decent), but I can't jump up and down in a circle for more than 30 seconds straight. In fact, it seems to me as physically exhaustive as sprinting, if not even more so. A sports tech person could probably answer that.

    I thought some WOW players swear jumping while running makes you marginally faster as well. I always thought that was a wive's tale. I don't know if that was ever proven or not.

    Anyway, running and leaping around in WOW made combat so ridiculous. Again, like some kind of circular LOL ballet.

    I'd love a "attack of opportunity" mechanism. In D&D when you are engaged, you are punished for withdrawing out of your opponent's zone of influence. This could stop the "and the wheels of the bus go round and round" PvP a little.

    It makes sense to some degree. Although you move to try and flank opponents when fighting, you have to do cautiously, or risk exposure. And in video game PvP, there just never seems to be a penalty for running around your opponent like a jumping clown.

    Obstacle clanking is another annoying thing to be sure, well said Grundle.

    ChaosRed on
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    TrumbotTrumbot DJ On the one.Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Daniel ericson said that you can definitely knock people off cliffs and ledges and such. He assured the interviewer that this could be done to devastating effect in open world pvp.

    Trumbot on
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    texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Something I've been curious about that maybe someone who's followed the game more closely can talk about is how transparent this game is going to be about mechanics. Some MMOs seem determined to hide data from the players, which I don't think really makes sense, and I found myself wondering if the swtor crew feels this way.

    Yea, i wonder about this as well. CoH started out with hide the data concept. But something like a year ago or so they did away with it. Said doesn't really add to the game either way but fans wanted it. I think that was just their way of trying to cover their asses for years of poor player treatment. Anyways, my point is I think Bioware would have seen this, and HOPEFULLY understand it DOES have an importance and that vague is never good.

    texasheat on
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    ChaosRedChaosRed Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Yeah, I prefer the "open source" philosophy when it comes to the math behind the game too. In the case of City of Heroes, they were downright hostile towards their fans and their input on the game. I mean this was the game that thought "the Hollows" was an excellent, post-tutorial zone.

    And although it sounds minor, I hope they let you delete the UI with just a single key, it makes for great screenshots and video capture and nerds like me like that for the purposes of creating cheesy machinima. If you want to replicate the wonders of Champion's demorecorder, I'd be pretty much in heaven.

    ChaosRed on
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    Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Another part of the beta tester Q&A is out. And lo and behold, there's even a question about auto-facing!


    Q. In many videos i've seen that seems to be auto-facing (wich i don't like it) is it true or not?
    A. It is in the game but not for PvP. Previously, I thought it was the dumbest thing in the world but I have really grown to like it.


    Edit: this Q&A is long, like 50 questions or so. I recommend everyone give it a read.

    Maz- on
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    KhaczorKhaczor Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    List of professions for TOR:
    Scavenging
    Archaeology
    Slicing
    Bioanalysis
    Crafting
    Artifice
    Armstech
    Armormech
    Cybertech
    Synthweaving
    Biochem
    Missions
    Diplomacy
    Investigation
    Treasure Hunting
    Underworld Trading

    Sounds cool. I want more info on this since I plan on digging really deep into the crafting aspect of this game especially when it comes to helping PA guildies out.

    Khaczor on
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    Silas BrownSilas Brown That's hobo style. Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    So are all those things your companions can do, or can I actively take my character out on Diplomacy and Treasure Hunting missions?

    Because damn that sounds incredibly awesome.

    Silas Brown on
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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited June 2011
    Khaczor wrote: »
    Sounds cool. I want more info on this since I plan on digging really deep into the crafting aspect of this game especially when it comes to helping PA guildies out.

    Seen this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go-7Yv8FJok

    Echo on
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