Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited December 2022
In honor of Dwarf Fortress getting a Steam release, I dipped my toes back into the game after a long absence. No filthy tileset needed here, I play the game the right way: with ASCII graphics so low-rez the edges can take off a limb. Deployed into a wasteland of fire clay with a stream running through it, with a wedge of forest in one corner. Apparently most of the commands are just burned into my brain at this point; with only a little bit of searching for keys, I have an outpost firmly in the side of a mountain with a protected chicken coop up top that can graze, a pen below that which is growing up a herd of pigs, and an indoor farm on the abundant clay. Everybody is set up with beds and food, we've got an output of high-grade turtle shell crafts that is buying us the extra basics we need.
The only drama so far is figuring out why there was a sudden spate of giant red squirrels interrupting everything. Believe it or not, squirrels climb. Such as climbing up the walls around the chicken coop at the top of my fortress, or the trees near the cliffs I carved out to isolate the area. Then the squirrels managed to rush downstairs into the main outpost hallway and get stuck between sets of dwarves, mauling some folks before I managed to get the first squad together to pummel them to death. Not too bad, between that incident and some other stuff *cough*cave-in*cough* I've only lost about five dwarves out of fifty. Forgot how annoying the babies get, though, and they take so dang long to get useful. There's like ten of them at this point, which is a huge chunk of useless mouths in a small fortress. Definitely slapped a cap on that in the init files. Also, dammit, giant vultures, stop swooping in and swiping all my traded fruit goods before I can move them out of the depot. It's not that big a deal, but those are my fruits!
Anyone know if files from "classic" Dwarf Fortress can be kicked over to the impending Steam version? I did this fortress just for a taste of the original style and I won't mind starting a new one for the Steam version, but I think it would also be kinda fun to continue from the classic version into the Steam version.
Old saves won't be compatible, but they expect the new version and "classic" (the free version, when it comes out) to be cross compatible, and don't plan on breaking future save compatibility for a very long time.
Changes to the game which have been mentioned by Toady and Kitfox, not really spoilers but just for the sake of those who might want to go in blind:
Traders will not come with wagons immediately, just pack animals. You must first prove yourself by growing and gaining a few nobles etc. to encourage them to bring their wagons. This also means having to deal with limited carrying capacity for what you sell to them, so don't make your trade goods too heavy.
Trade values of many objects have been adjusted. Weapons, armor and clothing are worth less (to make sieges less profitable). Trap components, which used to be buggedly valuable due to their internal size, are worth a lot less. Quality influences price less, for example well-crafted items seem to be worth about 1.4x base value instead of 2x. Rough and cut gems are worth more. Toady has said that this makes any gems you find a really good trade item early on.
Farming yields have been reduced 75% if on "thin soil." Muddying a cave floor to farm on is much less effective. This is to encourage players to farm down in the actual caverns where it is more dangerous.
Not only will elves be a lot more strict about how many trees you cut, but wildlife will be upset by it too. Random animals will start attacking you for cutting trees down.
"Hidden fun stuff" has been changed in some way. There's speculation but no one knows for sure except early testers. Some say it may have been made less deadly to give players a realistic endgame goal to work towards. I speculate based on the cover art that dark fortresses may be back?
Hm. I read the first spoiler and decided I actually want to discover the rest on my own, this could definitely be fun.
The third one regarding
[Subject only]
New factors impacting farm yields
Might be worth knowing if it isn't spelled out in the UI.
[Full content]
Farming yields have been reduced 75% if on "thin soil." Muddying a cave floor to farm on is much less effective. This is to encourage players to farm down in the actual caverns where it is more dangerous.
Just seems like one of those things you could go multiple playthroughs without really noticing, and it's an interesting nuance.
Hm. I read the first spoiler and decided I actually want to discover the rest on my own, this could definitely be fun.
The third one regarding
[Subject only]
New factors impacting farm yields
Might be worth knowing if it isn't spelled out in the UI.
[Full content]
Farming yields have been reduced 75% if on "thin soil." Muddying a cave floor to farm on is much less effective. This is to encourage players to farm down in the actual caverns where it is more dangerous.
Just seems like one of those things you could go multiple playthroughs without really noticing, and it's an interesting nuance.
I'm really curious how that affects surface crops and the top few soil layers. Not a huge huge deal either way I think though.
That screenshot is from the top soil layer. "Indoors" areas are for growing plump helmets and I think those are all at -75% yield unless on the cavern floor. "Outdoors" areas for surface crops like berries I think are not affected, but I'm curious what happens if you collapse the surface to an underground area and floor a roof over it. What happens in-game is that it's just a single floor layer of soil and the stone remains under it, so is that just a thin layer without a good yield?
Sorry quoting is breaking on my phone atm, but continuing the spoilered discussion:
Yeah I was specifically meaning using the trick of channeling out the top layers then roofing over it to be able to plant surface plants underground. Would strawberries get hit with that same penalty, etc forcing you to actually grow up on the surface.
In honor of Dwarf Fortress getting a Steam release, I dipped my toes back into the game after a long absence. No filthy tileset needed here, I play the game the right way: with ASCII graphics so low-rez the edges can take off a limb. Deployed into a wasteland of fire clay with a stream running through it, with a wedge of forest in one corner. Apparently most of the commands are just burned into my brain at this point; with only a little bit of searching for keys, I have an outpost firmly in the side of a mountain with a protected chicken coop up top that can graze, a pen below that which is growing up a herd of pigs, and an indoor farm on the abundant clay. Everybody is set up with beds and food, we've got an output of high-grade turtle shell crafts that is buying us the extra basics we need.
The only drama so far is figuring out why there was a sudden spate of giant red squirrels interrupting everything. Believe it or not, squirrels climb. Such as climbing up the walls around the chicken coop at the top of my fortress, or the trees near the cliffs I carved out to isolate the area. Then the squirrels managed to rush downstairs into the main outpost hallway and get stuck between sets of dwarves, mauling some folks before I managed to get the first squad together to pummel them to death. Not too bad, between that incident and some other stuff *cough*cave-in*cough* I've only lost about five dwarves out of fifty. Forgot how annoying the babies get, though, and they take so dang long to get useful. There's like ten of them at this point, which is a huge chunk of useless mouths in a small fortress. Definitely slapped a cap on that in the init files. Also, dammit, giant vultures, stop swooping in and swiping all my traded fruit goods before I can move them out of the depot. It's not that big a deal, but those are my fruits!
Anyone know if files from "classic" Dwarf Fortress can be kicked over to the impending Steam version? I did this fortress just for a taste of the original style and I won't mind starting a new one for the Steam version, but I think it would also be kinda fun to continue from the classic version into the Steam version.
Not only squirrels can climb. This makes walls by themselves less of a solution to defense than it used to be, as I proved in my last fort.
Having a 2+ high wall helps a lot with this though. Forces of evil are less likely to immediately path to a tall wall than, say, your half finished roof 1 z level above your pasture...
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
In addition walls made of blocks or manually smoothed stone prevent climbing. Wooden walls are always climbable. I am unsure about walls made from bars, and I'm pretty sure carving fortifications in makes otherwise smooth stone climbable.
You also don't need the entire wall to be unclimbable, just one unbroken unclimbable ring to break pathing.
In addition walls made of blocks or manually smoothed stone prevent climbing. Wooden walls are always climbable. I am unsure about walls made from bars, and I'm pretty sure carving fortifications in makes otherwise smooth stone climbable.
You also don't need the entire wall to be unclimbable, just one unbroken unclimbable ring to break pathing.
Does smoothing it make it completely unclimbable, or just less climbable?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
In addition walls made of blocks or manually smoothed stone prevent climbing. Wooden walls are always climbable. I am unsure about walls made from bars, and I'm pretty sure carving fortifications in makes otherwise smooth stone climbable.
You also don't need the entire wall to be unclimbable, just one unbroken unclimbable ring to break pathing.
I thought for sure constructed walls were climbable, and smoothed natural was your best bet.
An overhang of floor stops climbers though.
And I believe fliers as a siege enemy have been broken for a long time (they ride them but they can't fly), but keas and undead crows and dragons and such are still threats.
In addition walls made of blocks or manually smoothed stone prevent climbing. Wooden walls are always climbable. I am unsure about walls made from bars, and I'm pretty sure carving fortifications in makes otherwise smooth stone climbable.
You also don't need the entire wall to be unclimbable, just one unbroken unclimbable ring to break pathing.
I thought for sure constructed walls were climbable, and smoothed natural was your best bet.
An overhang of floor stops climbers though.
And I believe fliers as a siege enemy have been broken for a long time (they ride them but they can't fly), but keas and undead crows and dragons and such are still threats.
That's what roofs are for. Fuck those kea's
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
In addition walls made of blocks or manually smoothed stone prevent climbing. Wooden walls are always climbable. I am unsure about walls made from bars, and I'm pretty sure carving fortifications in makes otherwise smooth stone climbable.
You also don't need the entire wall to be unclimbable, just one unbroken unclimbable ring to break pathing.
I thought for sure constructed walls were climbable, and smoothed natural was your best bet.
An overhang of floor stops climbers though.
And I believe fliers as a siege enemy have been broken for a long time (they ride them but they can't fly), but keas and undead crows and dragons and such are still threats.
You are correct apparently! They are in fact climbable, but "harder" for whatever value that means.
I don't think I've ever seen it happen, but also I don't think I ever really extensively used constructed walls in my trap hallways so I guess that's why I never noticed. The wiki is quite unhelpful on whether fortifications are climbable or not, so some testing might be needed tomorrow.
Edit: To circle around, the most useful thing I find is making the top ring of a death pit unclimbable. So if I have my hallway of death for invaders, I make sure to smooth that first Z level below the path before I channel out anything else. You can also do two deep horizontal overhangs to prevent climbing as well. So that's how I'd recommend dealing with surface building and outer wall defenses. Climbers can move one square laterally, so you do need at least two spaces to prevent them reaching the next wall section.
So...just thinking about a "things I wish I would have known when starting*":
*May not all be applicable to the Steam Release depending on changes.
You can (and should) turn off the ability for other Dwarves to harvest your crops. Harvesting crops is not restricted by the planter/farming labor, nor the gatherer labor. A highly skilled planter will harvest (way) more crops per tile than a non-skilled one. The only way to stop every random Urist who wanders by from blindly ripping them out of the ground is to go into the [o]rders screen and hitting [h] to change it so only farmers can harvest.
You never, ever get seeds back from cooking plants. You can get them back from processing, brewing, or eating raw. Cooking destroys the seeds, so only cook plants if you are sure you otherwise have a way to obtain seeds for replanting.
A lot of people will talk about garbage dumps, but it's not always explained well how it works. A dumping zone is a spot adjacent to a cliff or other z-level drop off. The dwarf goes to that spot, then blindly chucks whatever it is tasked to dump over the cliff. It will then all collect in a pile at the bottom. Generally dumping zones do not need to be very large (I usually do a single tile shaft down 30-40 z-levels and put a 1 tile dumping zone on various levels of my fort similar to an apartment building garbage chute).
Dwarves will not throw away their old worn out clothes by default, even if better are available and the old stuff is seriously pissing them off (they get bad moods from tattered clothes). To enable them to toss their old gear - [o]rders, [r]efuse, [k] to change it from Save Other to Dump Other. Be warned, this can also wind up with you having a lot of pissed off dwarves running around naked if you don't have clothes for them to replace their old worn out gear with. You might be trading one problem for another.
Along that line, processing pig tails into thread is not the same kind of jobs or skills as spinning silk or yarn into thread. Pig tails require Thresher/Plant Processing skill to create thread and wool or silk requires Weaver/Spinning. Just because you have some Spin Thread jobs queued up doesn't mean it's the right kind of job.
Use animal pens (a type of ["i"] zone) extensively for pets and grazers.
Take the extra 10 seconds to name stockpiles, levers, bridges, floodgates, etc. It will save you a ton of time later as your fort expands, having stuff organized and easily findable in lists (especially when linking up stuff to levers)
Wheelbarrows are only ever used to move items to that stockpile, never for taking stuff away from it. If you know you're going to have a major building project far from your main storage, it will be useful and save a ton of hauling time to set a temporary stockpile nearby to pull from, so that the dwarves can use wheelbarrows to carry it a majority of the distance.
If a workshop is linked to take from any stockpiles, it will only take from that stockpile. I generally recommend against linking workshops unless you are setting up very specific material workflows.
Sand and clay are infinitely collectible if you have them on your embark. You don't need a massive collection zone, a single tile over the appropriate floor type will do, anywhere that is convenient.
Restricting movement through [d]esignations and traffic [o]rders is incredibly useful, especially if you have powered minecart tracks. Dwarves will not walk on restricted areas, so you can even "fence" them in on the surface (though there are probably better ways to achieve your goals through burrows).
They've been around since at least like 2014 I think. So "relatively" new?
Basically you can have 3 wheelbarrows per stockpile (or more with DF Hack), and they let a dwarf move with 100% speed regardless of weight when moving something to that stockpile.
I could be wrong but I believe wheelbarrows are generally only useful for hauling boulders. Almost everything else is pretty easy to transport.
Bars also tend to be pretty heavy, as well as bins full of items. So you can set up a stockpile near your trade depot for collecting your bins full of crafts, and they'll use a wheelbarrow to take it over there instead of struggling along for days. Then you only have to move it a few squares to the depot.
I can't believe it's been so long since I played that I was unaware of that newfangled technology, the wheel
In case these would be new to you too (December 1, 2015), some very important modern elements of Dwarf Fortress: tavern, temple, library, and guildhall. A lot of people make them as early as you get farms up and running, since they are critical to meet your dwarves' needs.
They will get very distracted without being able to pray at a temple. All you need is an empty room, and define it as being meant for no specific deity. Later on, if enough dwarves who worship a particular deity arrive, they may petition you for a specific temple just for them. You can put instruments in chests in this room and assign a performer and they may perform religious dances and ceremonies if any are associated with your civilization.
Libraries are great for good thoughts. Dwarves will read any books you have until they've read everything once. You need bookshelves to store the books and tons of tables and chairs for reading. Books and codexes will arrive with traders at the bottom of their trade list, and have awesome generated names and topics. You can also assign chests and cabinets and writing materials, and your assigned scribes and scholars may make copies of existing books or write new ones on various topics.
Taverns are for getting drunk and partying, being entertained by dancers and poets, learning rumors from the outside world, and renting rooms to visitors. You need tables and chairs, a dance floor, beer, mugs, instruments, and chests to hold them (if you don't assign instruments your dwarves will literally play air guitar and it's awesome). You can also build bedrooms and furnish them for visitors, who will first petition for long-term residency for specific purposes like entertainment, and eventually petition for permanent residency when they become as controllable as any dwarf (and require things like human-sized clothes...). You can assign an unnecessary tavernkeeper who will cause more problems than he helps by force-feeding everyone alcohol until they die, and you can also assign performers.
Guildhalls will be petitioned by your dwarves when enough of them arrive who are members of a specific guild tradition. You will be tasked with giving them a room of sufficient value to make them pleased with it, including the same amenities that you might for nobles like engraving the walls and installing nice statues. They will go there to teach each other their craft, demonstrate techniques, and socialize.
All of these can either accept outside visitors or reject them. Outside visitors are fun, like monster hunters who will go kill everything in the caverns for you, or visiting labor masters who will level up your guild dwarves' skills. But they also open you up to the villains system, whereby your dwarves will be corrupted by dark agents and artifacts will be stolen.
So another tip: Don't blindly drain liquids into the caverns if you value your FPS. Seriously.
To drain water off the map in an FPS safe manner, channel to the edge of the map. You will not be able to dig out the final tile to the edge, but you can smooth it, and then carve it into fortifications which will allow the liquid to flow by.
I think Penny Arcade forums were one of the first epicenters of Dwarf Fortress, alongside Something Awful and of course the Bay12 forums. There are early references at Bay12 about what's been said "over at PA" like everyone was aware of the places to talk about DF online.
Unfortunately it looks like PA's archives only go back to threads created at the start of 2007. In the earliest DF thread I can find here, there's a link in the OP to the current SA thread "since the old PA DF megathread fell off the forums."
Unless the dates got screwed up, it looks like we went through two 60 page threads in just May 2007. As noted by Captain K, it was possibly the most active thread on the forum at the time.
Posts
The only drama so far is figuring out why there was a sudden spate of giant red squirrels interrupting everything. Believe it or not, squirrels climb. Such as climbing up the walls around the chicken coop at the top of my fortress, or the trees near the cliffs I carved out to isolate the area. Then the squirrels managed to rush downstairs into the main outpost hallway and get stuck between sets of dwarves, mauling some folks before I managed to get the first squad together to pummel them to death. Not too bad, between that incident and some other stuff *cough*cave-in*cough* I've only lost about five dwarves out of fifty. Forgot how annoying the babies get, though, and they take so dang long to get useful. There's like ten of them at this point, which is a huge chunk of useless mouths in a small fortress. Definitely slapped a cap on that in the init files. Also, dammit, giant vultures, stop swooping in and swiping all my traded fruit goods before I can move them out of the depot. It's not that big a deal, but those are my fruits!
Anyone know if files from "classic" Dwarf Fortress can be kicked over to the impending Steam version? I did this fortress just for a taste of the original style and I won't mind starting a new one for the Steam version, but I think it would also be kinda fun to continue from the classic version into the Steam version.
Changes to the game which have been mentioned by Toady and Kitfox, not really spoilers but just for the sake of those who might want to go in blind:
The third one regarding
[Subject only]
Might be worth knowing if it isn't spelled out in the UI.
[Full content]
Just seems like one of those things you could go multiple playthroughs without really noticing, and it's an interesting nuance.
From the streams:
https://www.pcgamer.com/dwarf-fortress-review/
https://www.polygon.com/reviews/23490038/dwarf-fortress-steam-review-release-date-pc
EDIT: also https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/12/dwarf-fortresss-graphical-upgrade-provides-a-new-way-into-a-wildly-wonky-game/
Not only squirrels can climb. This makes walls by themselves less of a solution to defense than it used to be, as I proved in my last fort.
Having a 2+ high wall helps a lot with this though. Forces of evil are less likely to immediately path to a tall wall than, say, your half finished roof 1 z level above your pasture...
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
You also don't need the entire wall to be unclimbable, just one unbroken unclimbable ring to break pathing.
Does smoothing it make it completely unclimbable, or just less climbable?
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
I thought for sure constructed walls were climbable, and smoothed natural was your best bet.
An overhang of floor stops climbers though.
And I believe fliers as a siege enemy have been broken for a long time (they ride them but they can't fly), but keas and undead crows and dragons and such are still threats.
That's what roofs are for. Fuck those kea's
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
You are correct apparently! They are in fact climbable, but "harder" for whatever value that means.
I don't think I've ever seen it happen, but also I don't think I ever really extensively used constructed walls in my trap hallways so I guess that's why I never noticed. The wiki is quite unhelpful on whether fortifications are climbable or not, so some testing might be needed tomorrow.
Edit: To circle around, the most useful thing I find is making the top ring of a death pit unclimbable. So if I have my hallway of death for invaders, I make sure to smooth that first Z level below the path before I channel out anything else. You can also do two deep horizontal overhangs to prevent climbing as well. So that's how I'd recommend dealing with surface building and outer wall defenses. Climbers can move one square laterally, so you do need at least two spaces to prevent them reaching the next wall section.
Example:
Is climbable.
*May not all be applicable to the Steam Release depending on changes.
Basically you can have 3 wheelbarrows per stockpile (or more with DF Hack), and they let a dwarf move with 100% speed regardless of weight when moving something to that stockpile.
Bars also tend to be pretty heavy, as well as bins full of items. So you can set up a stockpile near your trade depot for collecting your bins full of crafts, and they'll use a wheelbarrow to take it over there instead of struggling along for days. Then you only have to move it a few squares to the depot.
In case these would be new to you too (December 1, 2015), some very important modern elements of Dwarf Fortress: tavern, temple, library, and guildhall. A lot of people make them as early as you get farms up and running, since they are critical to meet your dwarves' needs.
They will get very distracted without being able to pray at a temple. All you need is an empty room, and define it as being meant for no specific deity. Later on, if enough dwarves who worship a particular deity arrive, they may petition you for a specific temple just for them. You can put instruments in chests in this room and assign a performer and they may perform religious dances and ceremonies if any are associated with your civilization.
Libraries are great for good thoughts. Dwarves will read any books you have until they've read everything once. You need bookshelves to store the books and tons of tables and chairs for reading. Books and codexes will arrive with traders at the bottom of their trade list, and have awesome generated names and topics. You can also assign chests and cabinets and writing materials, and your assigned scribes and scholars may make copies of existing books or write new ones on various topics.
Taverns are for getting drunk and partying, being entertained by dancers and poets, learning rumors from the outside world, and renting rooms to visitors. You need tables and chairs, a dance floor, beer, mugs, instruments, and chests to hold them (if you don't assign instruments your dwarves will literally play air guitar and it's awesome). You can also build bedrooms and furnish them for visitors, who will first petition for long-term residency for specific purposes like entertainment, and eventually petition for permanent residency when they become as controllable as any dwarf (and require things like human-sized clothes...). You can assign an unnecessary tavernkeeper who will cause more problems than he helps by force-feeding everyone alcohol until they die, and you can also assign performers.
Guildhalls will be petitioned by your dwarves when enough of them arrive who are members of a specific guild tradition. You will be tasked with giving them a room of sufficient value to make them pleased with it, including the same amenities that you might for nobles like engraving the walls and installing nice statues. They will go there to teach each other their craft, demonstrate techniques, and socialize.
All of these can either accept outside visitors or reject them. Outside visitors are fun, like monster hunters who will go kill everything in the caverns for you, or visiting labor masters who will level up your guild dwarves' skills. But they also open you up to the villains system, whereby your dwarves will be corrupted by dark agents and artifacts will be stolen.
Dude wrote 28 pages warning everyone to stay away from his ex.
To drain water off the map in an FPS safe manner, channel to the edge of the map. You will not be able to dig out the final tile to the edge, but you can smooth it, and then carve it into fortifications which will allow the liquid to flow by.
I figure start a new one once it releases. Get that fresh thread smell, ya know?
For a while the older threads kept a running list of all previous ones, if it's not too much trouble could you include them?
I can't think of anyone more appropriate to do the honors. Thanks for all your hard work Mayday!