Unfortunately, for someone like me, who plays for gameplay first, with story being a distant second, good story hooks aren't enough to draw me in. It's really messed up that they'll craft a great, deep combat system, then strip out every single fun and interesting aspect of it and drip-feed it to you over the course of 8 hours. At least take a page out of Metroid Prime and give me a taste of what's to come.
This isn't really about P4G, but rather the genre as a whole. I think there's something fundamentally wrong with a genre when it takes 6+ hours of play before you can even start to form an opinion on it. No other genre has this problem. Just looking over at the 80+ games on my shelf, I can't think of more than a few that took more than an hour to make a judgement. Some of them had me hooked in minutes. Yet after 7 hours of playing Tales of Vesperia, I was still wondering "Does it get better? Is this it? Should I give it a few more hours?"
On the whole, you're right. In any media, the ability to draw the audience in and grab their interest is a benefit, and I can't think of any reason for a work not to attempt that... but in jRPGs especially, there has been a bit of a slide toward long, slow build-ups that don't give enough story hooks to grab people right away. It's a stylistic choice, and one that I think is ultimately a disservice to many great stories, but tropes like these are cultural and temporal; it'll change as the moods of the audience and creators change. *shrug*
Also, FWIW, P4G didn't have this problem for me. No, you don't get to the first dungeon for some time, but that's mechanics. The story hooks were there from the first few minutes, and that was, for me, what mattered.
Yeah, I think in general, it's a question of what the audience appreciates, and additionally, it's not like "slow introduction to the game" is actually a hard rule or strict JRPG trope. Plenty of JRPGs start in medias res as a means to hook you, and then rewind to do the establishing story, and in FFVI you go from 0 to plot point boss fight in what, 10 minutes? There are lots of JRPGs that start slow, sure, but it's not symptomatic of the genre, it's a story choice. One that to some degree caters to the audience, as well --- I'm one of those guys that enjoys the journey of things, so I get kind of put off in games with a narrative if I'm playing some tricked out superman without a clue of how I got here.
Additionally, and this is the case for P4G as well as many other JRPGs, that slow ramp up time is often reserved as world-establishing time, which is especially important for narrative-heavy JRPGs. If you're talking about a game that takes 40, 60, 80 hours baseline to see through its story, the "alright, sell me on this game" window at the start has to cover mechanics, universe, story tone, and so on. There's actually a lot going on in the P4G intro, it subtlely introduces a number of minor and major plot hooks as well as letting on how a day progresses and what you can expect to do day to day while it eases in an introduction to the characters. So to a fair degree, it starts slow because it has to.
bss on
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The rpgs that come to mind when I think of in media res are FF6, 7, 10, 12, 13, and Xenoblade. They all have fast opening scenes that later on slow down to give you the proper story introduction. And all but 12 and 13 pretty much have you using the full battle system immediately. 9's start is more playful, but you sill have a good mix of worldbuilding and 4-character combat. You don't NEED to drip-feed story for 2 hours before seeing the main gameplay functions.
So... P4G... when do I get to stop just pressing "X"?
You could press O for a change of pace whenever you want, man. ;-)
Seriously, though, the story sequences are basically a visual novel; yeah, you're just reading and advancing the text. The combat is jRPG menu stuff, so you'll be pressing X to confirm selections. This game is going to be a lot of pressing the X button. But, I'd guess your complaint is not that you're pressing the X button, but that the front end of the game is very story heavy. How far in are you, and are you finding it interesting at all?
So... P4G... when do I get to stop just pressing "X"?
It's around 45 minutes in, I think, that you start getting some real combat and then you're mostly on normal day-to-day time (which includes plot popping up here and there).
Edit: maybe my perception of time is off though.
bss on
3DS: 2466-2307-8384 PSN: bssteph Steam:bsstephanTwitch:bsstephan Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e Occasional words about games:my site
So... P4G... when do I get to stop just pressing "X"?
It's around 45 minutes in, I think, that you start getting some real combat and then you're mostly on normal day-to-day time (which includes plot popping up here and there).
Edit: maybe my perception of time is off though.
Depends on where you delineate the "Game really gets going" point.
At about 45 minutes, you get your first real battle. At about 90-120 minutes is when you get your third party member which also coincides with when you can really explore a dungeon (before, you just had 1 floor) and being able to choose how to spend your time in the lifesim part of the game.
You're getting close to the decision-making part of the game. Stick with it!
I'm not sold yet (well, I am sold in a sense, I've bought it) but it's interesting enough to keep me going for now.
I've beaten the game three times now; if you need advice when you get to the interactive part of the game, feel free to PM me or ask in the SMT/Persona thread. I like watching people's first time through.
So... P4G... when do I get to stop just pressing "X"?
It's around 45 minutes in, I think, that you start getting some real combat and then you're mostly on normal day-to-day time (which includes plot popping up here and there).
Edit: maybe my perception of time is off though.
Depends on where you delineate the "Game really gets going" point.
At about 45 minutes, you get your first real battle. At about 90-120 minutes is when you get your third party member which also coincides with when you can really explore a dungeon (before, you just had 1 floor) and being able to choose how to spend your time in the lifesim part of the game.
Ah, yeah, at least I'm not totally crazy, as I was indeed using a literal "when do I start doing something" reading and only meant the first part. After 4 going on 5 passes of the game, time no longer feels linear.
3DS: 2466-2307-8384 PSN: bssteph Steam:bsstephanTwitch:bsstephan Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e Occasional words about games:my site
This isn't really about P4G, but rather the genre as a whole. I think there's something fundamentally wrong with a genre when it takes 6+ hours of play before you can even start to form an opinion on it. No other genre has this problem. Just looking over at the 80+ games on my shelf, I can't think of more than a few that took more than an hour to make a judgement. Some of them had me hooked in minutes. Yet after 7 hours of playing Tales of Vesperia, I was still wondering "Does it get better? Is this it? Should I give it a few more hours?"
It's not a problem with just the genre, it's a problem with lots of long games. GTA games always take hours to really get going, as doest he Assassin's Creed series (despite the gameplay having the depth of a paddling pool), the Yakuza series, Gran Turismo series, etc. Pretty sure the idea is that the pacing has to match the length of the game, otherwise you'll just wear people out.
I don't think "takes too long to really get going" is a complaint that can be universal. Some people have different opinions on what constitutes too long or what does or doesn't hold their interest. Actually, looking back I find that while I do enjoy games that thrust you right into the action, the games I tend to think about long after they're completed are the ones that burn slowly and build properly. P4G, Phoenix Wright, Alpha Protocol, Planescape Torment, 999/VLR, and so on and on. There are games with a long wait that I really hated too: FFXIII is a huge stinker in my opinion. I just don't think "takes a while to get going" is bad in and of itself; "takes a while to get going and the buildup wasn't worth what I got" is probably closer to what bugs people. Which is fine! Opinions are subjective and all.
For me, the whole appeal of Persona is interacting with those characters and those stories, and so for me, I'm thrust immediately into that portion of the game when I start it. It never was "5 hours to get going" since the stories and interactions with the characters starts immediately (which, in my opinion, is the crux of a roleplaying game... you know, actually playing a role, not persistent number crunchers). The "gameplay" that you get further down the line is standard JRPG tripe (Pokemon, with the ability to fuse together your Pokemon into horrible Chimeras...). But I love the day-to-day events and seeing all the different things you can do with your friends. It's more Animal Crossing than Final Fantasy, for me.
Maybe part of the problem is that it really is two games duck-taped into one game. You have the daily life simulator (Roleplaying in a The-Sims-like fashion) and you have the dungeon crawling. But a lot of games do this sort of thing nowadays; many games do the hybrid gameplay thingy.
For me, the whole appeal of Persona is interacting with those characters and those stories, and so for me, I'm thrust immediately into that portion of the game when I start it. It never was "5 hours to get going" since the stories and interactions with the characters starts immediately (which, in my opinion, is the crux of a roleplaying game... you know, actually playing a role, not persistent number crunchers). The "gameplay" that you get further down the line is standard JRPG tripe (Pokemon, with the ability to fuse together your Pokemon into horrible Chimeras...). But I love the day-to-day events and seeing all the different things you can do with your friends. It's more Animal Crossing than Final Fantasy, for me.
Maybe part of the problem is that it really is two games duck-taped into one game. You have the daily life simulator (Roleplaying in a The-Sims-like fashion) and you have the dungeon crawling. But a lot of games do this sort of thing nowadays; many games do the hybrid gameplay thingy.
I kind of wish I knew Japanese because I almost like the sim portion of P4G better than the combat. I think I would play some of those weird ass dating sims that are never going to be published here.
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I like that hybrid trend actually. They tend to get stale less quickly, and as long as you get the best of both worlds it's like some weird digital version of real life's genetic hybrid vigor.
I would not recommend playing actual Japanese dating sims -- they trend towards super gross and creepy, but you should buy and play Long Live The Queen
I would not recommend playing actual Japanese dating sims -- they trend towards super gross and creepy, but you should buy and play Long Live The Queen
I just bought Long Live the Queen because, well, it was on sale on Steam and it looked neato.
Switch SW-5832-5050-0149
PSN Hypacia
Xbox HypaciaMinnow
Discord Hypacia#0391
P4G, Phoenix Wright, Alpha Protocol, Planescape Torment, 999/VLR, and so on and on.
Amusingly enough, those are all visual novels to some extent (full blown in Phoenix Wright, 999, and VLR's cases, RPG/VN hybrids with P4G, AP, and PT).
This has been a troubled year for the still relatively young music game franchise, and unfortunately for the most part the news has not been good. I'll start by recapping what we know:
After many delays due to reasons beyond Pentavision Global's control, DJMAX Technika Tune for the PS VITA comes out a few months behind schedule. It fails to attract any retail attention, with neither Amazon nor GameStop stocking even a single copy, and is sold almost exclusively through technikatune.com and PSN.
Pentavision Global's community manager, Eddie, leaves the company shortly after Technika Tune's release, and the DJMAX Facebook page goes largely silent.
After a long silence, a new product is finally unveiled: DJMAX Technika Q for iOS and Android. Notably, Pentavision's branding is nowhere to be found; NeoWiz had acquired Pentavision some time ago but this is the first instance where they did not use the brand.
Technika Q's release in Korea comes and goes, and absolutely nothing is spoken as to releases outside of that country.
Planetboom, a long time member of the DJMAX development team, reveals in November he has left the company, and that no one else from the DJMAX team remains. Some content has been left in NeoWiz's hands for future updates, but the future of the series is up in the air.
Earlier this month, shocking everyone, the game's Japanese publisher, CyberFront, is suddenly and without warning dissolved by their parent company.
NeoWiz announces that they are pulling the plug on all online services for DJMAX Technika (arcade) and Trilogy. The server shutdown has occurred, and as feared, no end-of-life patch to the game was applied, meaning close to 80% of DJMAX Technika's content is now completely inaccessible.
Yesterday, after sporadic updates, the DJMAX Facebook posts this. Subtle, no?
Which brings us to right now: Just under an hour ago, the DJMAX Facebook has rebranded itself: it is now the "FAN OPERATED facebook page for the DJMAX franchise (formerly the official page operated by Pentavision Global)." They then kicked things off with this message:
Hello everyone. I am Jinho from South Korea, mother country of PENTAVISION. Thanks to Eddie, I became another administrator with Eddie. It's great to see all you guys. Since PENTAVISION disappeared, DJMAX series was maintained really hard by some members from PENTAVISION. In 2013.12.31 AM10:00 KST, DJMAX TECHNIKA's PLATINUM CREW(Online service) stopped operating and also DJMAX Trilogy's server was closed too. I'm really sorry that only remaining DJMAX is now DJMAX TECHNIKA Q which is on iOS/Android. I will update some news for DJMAX TECHNIKA Q and I can help you about having problems to play with. Also, I will upload new songs for TECHNIKA Q. For last, I am not directly related to PENTAVISION or NEOWIZ MOBILE so Me and Eddie cannot respond to the TECHNIKA TUNE's DLC release.... So sorry for that...
I loooove DJ MAX. It won't be the same without the series.
Meruru is a flat out massive upgrade over Totori. Here's a "Short" list:
The progression is a lot more structured. This may be a bad thing depending on your point of view. In Totori it was very very easy to get lost or overwhelmed with what to do, which actually fits with Totori due to her circumstances...
Combat is a lot better. Supports are much more usable in offence as well as defence, so that's another resource you have to work with instead of just using it to safeguard a squishy alchemist (Meruru is NOT squishy and can take hits better than some of her party members). Do you support defend against this attack? Do you throw down two support actions and hit the enemy with a bigger nuke from an item? What about two more support actions for Meruru's 3rd tier item use? Combat is also a bit more strategic I felt compared to Totori. There were times where I was manipulating the flow of actions just to survive.
Party member abilities are a lot better defined, and you get access to more tools earlier in the game. Heck, you start off with AoE damage and AoE disables (sleep) as 'free' abilities with the first two party members.
Synthesis has been rebalanced somewhat and it's harder to break, but the core ideas still remains from Totori. You can go really really crazy on synthesis later on when you get access to the truly awesome traits. In Totori I tended to create 'perfect' boot strap items to stack the item levels and to seed great traits. With Meruru, I found that I had to synthesise on the fly. Less pre-manufactured bootstraps, more individual crafting.
Chim has been nerfed. You get Hom instead for the lovely random gathering and synthesis. Chim is still around, but demands payment that is not only pie. (Chim takes over as the sole Wholesale system proprietor)
Your container holds... 1999 items. No, this still will not be enough.
Enhancement gear like basket upgrades and travelling shoes are equippable items. This means they carry over to new playthroughs and don't clog up your basket. They also do matter how well you synthesise them!
The time cost for gathering has been reduced from a base of 5 time units to 4. This matters a great deal in the early game.
You don't need to buy recipe books. Money is a lot less stressed in the beginning of the game. However, due to Chim, you're going to need a lot of money for high powered synthesis late game.
You can have three alchemists in your party. Bombs, bombs, bombs oh and more bombs.
Rorona had the Tera Bomb, Totori had N2. Meruru plays with nuclear fusion (a miniature star).
Totori-sensei is awesome.
Note that this doesn't mean you can skip over Totori. Don't. A huge chunk of the joy in Meruru is the continuing character presence from Rorona to Totori and finally to Meruru. There are a good amount of character referencing and build up on stories from the previous games. Also, the ending theme is called "Metro" - MEruru TOtori ROrona
They're very relaxing and enjoyable lighthearted games with some non-linearity and multiple endings.
Going through Ayesha now and it's making me laugh at least every 10mins.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Atelier games. I just don't know if I can take that much of the same kind of gameplay at once.
Thankfully, only the core of item synthesis is the same from game to game. The story progression with Meruru is more akin to Rorona than Totori (fixed special synthesis requests). Ayesha is, well, very different to the Arland trilogy in terms of tone as well as in mechanics. The synthesis system is more like the other Atelier games in that traits aren't unique attributes to an item but are fixed and appear at different essence levels.
Posts
Yeah, I think in general, it's a question of what the audience appreciates, and additionally, it's not like "slow introduction to the game" is actually a hard rule or strict JRPG trope. Plenty of JRPGs start in medias res as a means to hook you, and then rewind to do the establishing story, and in FFVI you go from 0 to plot point boss fight in what, 10 minutes? There are lots of JRPGs that start slow, sure, but it's not symptomatic of the genre, it's a story choice. One that to some degree caters to the audience, as well --- I'm one of those guys that enjoys the journey of things, so I get kind of put off in games with a narrative if I'm playing some tricked out superman without a clue of how I got here.
Additionally, and this is the case for P4G as well as many other JRPGs, that slow ramp up time is often reserved as world-establishing time, which is especially important for narrative-heavy JRPGs. If you're talking about a game that takes 40, 60, 80 hours baseline to see through its story, the "alright, sell me on this game" window at the start has to cover mechanics, universe, story tone, and so on. There's actually a lot going on in the P4G intro, it subtlely introduces a number of minor and major plot hooks as well as letting on how a day progresses and what you can expect to do day to day while it eases in an introduction to the characters. So to a fair degree, it starts slow because it has to.
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
A beard doesn't grow in one day.
Edit: But yes. I agree with Renzo in that you want an intro hook.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
My head is full of play-doh.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
You could press O for a change of pace whenever you want, man. ;-)
Seriously, though, the story sequences are basically a visual novel; yeah, you're just reading and advancing the text. The combat is jRPG menu stuff, so you'll be pressing X to confirm selections. This game is going to be a lot of pressing the X button. But, I'd guess your complaint is not that you're pressing the X button, but that the front end of the game is very story heavy. How far in are you, and are you finding it interesting at all?
The game opens up around the 90-120 minute mark.
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
It's around 45 minutes in, I think, that you start getting some real combat and then you're mostly on normal day-to-day time (which includes plot popping up here and there).
Edit: maybe my perception of time is off though.
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
I think I'll wait.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
Depends on where you delineate the "Game really gets going" point.
At about 45 minutes, you get your first real battle. At about 90-120 minutes is when you get your third party member which also coincides with when you can really explore a dungeon (before, you just had 1 floor) and being able to choose how to spend your time in the lifesim part of the game.
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
I'm not sold yet (well, I am sold in a sense, I've bought it) but it's interesting enough to keep me going for now.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
I've beaten the game three times now; if you need advice when you get to the interactive part of the game, feel free to PM me or ask in the SMT/Persona thread. I like watching people's first time through.
Ah, yeah, at least I'm not totally crazy, as I was indeed using a literal "when do I start doing something" reading and only meant the first part. After 4 going on 5 passes of the game, time no longer feels linear.
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
It's not a problem with just the genre, it's a problem with lots of long games. GTA games always take hours to really get going, as doest he Assassin's Creed series (despite the gameplay having the depth of a paddling pool), the Yakuza series, Gran Turismo series, etc. Pretty sure the idea is that the pacing has to match the length of the game, otherwise you'll just wear people out.
Maybe part of the problem is that it really is two games duck-taped into one game. You have the daily life simulator (Roleplaying in a The-Sims-like fashion) and you have the dungeon crawling. But a lot of games do this sort of thing nowadays; many games do the hybrid gameplay thingy.
I kind of wish I knew Japanese because I almost like the sim portion of P4G better than the combat. I think I would play some of those weird ass dating sims that are never going to be published here.
PSN Hypacia
Xbox HypaciaMinnow
Discord Hypacia#0391
I just bought Long Live the Queen because, well, it was on sale on Steam and it looked neato.
PSN Hypacia
Xbox HypaciaMinnow
Discord Hypacia#0391
Amusingly enough, those are all visual novels to some extent (full blown in Phoenix Wright, 999, and VLR's cases, RPG/VN hybrids with P4G, AP, and PT).
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
This, I am buying this.
PSN Hypacia
Xbox HypaciaMinnow
Discord Hypacia#0391
I preordered the limited edition the day it was announced, and dang, it's out of stock now.
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=743563
That is poopy. I've had Technika Tune on my Vita for forever and have only done a couple songs. I should give it a good send-off.
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
I will fondly miss it. I have 5 games from the series.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Meruru is a flat out massive upgrade over Totori. Here's a "Short" list:
The progression is a lot more structured. This may be a bad thing depending on your point of view. In Totori it was very very easy to get lost or overwhelmed with what to do, which actually fits with Totori due to her circumstances...
Combat is a lot better. Supports are much more usable in offence as well as defence, so that's another resource you have to work with instead of just using it to safeguard a squishy alchemist (Meruru is NOT squishy and can take hits better than some of her party members). Do you support defend against this attack? Do you throw down two support actions and hit the enemy with a bigger nuke from an item? What about two more support actions for Meruru's 3rd tier item use? Combat is also a bit more strategic I felt compared to Totori. There were times where I was manipulating the flow of actions just to survive.
Party member abilities are a lot better defined, and you get access to more tools earlier in the game. Heck, you start off with AoE damage and AoE disables (sleep) as 'free' abilities with the first two party members.
Synthesis has been rebalanced somewhat and it's harder to break, but the core ideas still remains from Totori. You can go really really crazy on synthesis later on when you get access to the truly awesome traits. In Totori I tended to create 'perfect' boot strap items to stack the item levels and to seed great traits. With Meruru, I found that I had to synthesise on the fly. Less pre-manufactured bootstraps, more individual crafting.
Chim has been nerfed. You get Hom instead for the lovely random gathering and synthesis. Chim is still around, but demands payment that is not only pie. (Chim takes over as the sole Wholesale system proprietor)
Your container holds... 1999 items. No, this still will not be enough.
Enhancement gear like basket upgrades and travelling shoes are equippable items. This means they carry over to new playthroughs and don't clog up your basket. They also do matter how well you synthesise them!
The time cost for gathering has been reduced from a base of 5 time units to 4. This matters a great deal in the early game.
You don't need to buy recipe books. Money is a lot less stressed in the beginning of the game. However, due to Chim, you're going to need a lot of money for high powered synthesis late game.
You can have three alchemists in your party. Bombs, bombs, bombs oh and more bombs.
Rorona had the Tera Bomb, Totori had N2. Meruru plays with nuclear fusion (a miniature star).
Totori-sensei is awesome.
Note that this doesn't mean you can skip over Totori. Don't. A huge chunk of the joy in Meruru is the continuing character presence from Rorona to Totori and finally to Meruru. There are a good amount of character referencing and build up on stories from the previous games. Also, the ending theme is called "Metro" - MEruru TOtori ROrona
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Atelier summed up in one image :
Going through Ayesha now and it's making me laugh at least every 10mins.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Thankfully, only the core of item synthesis is the same from game to game. The story progression with Meruru is more akin to Rorona than Totori (fixed special synthesis requests). Ayesha is, well, very different to the Arland trilogy in terms of tone as well as in mechanics. The synthesis system is more like the other Atelier games in that traits aren't unique attributes to an item but are fixed and appear at different essence levels.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Been really working on Tearaway, and just got to
This just got cranked to 11.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch