This is something I literally just posted on a friend's Facebook when they were talking about not having the patience to educate people on ignorant bullshit:
When someone says something egregious and offensive, whether it's transphobic or racist or sexist or whatever, I've come to realize that when I don't call them out on it I'm essentially making not just a judgment call on the situation but on them as a person.
I'm essentially deciding that my odds of making meaningful headway with them on this issue is less than the amount of energy I am capable of expending at that time to do so, if it is possible at all, and/or the circumstances we're in at the time are not conducive to that conversation making a meaningful change in what they think. I'm writing them off, as a person, by not saying anything.
Now, I can say that because I'm in a position of privilege as a white, cisgender man. Confronting someone over being ignorant or offensive is generally a zero risk proposition for me, I'm not really opening myself up to much in the way of rebuke beyond potential social awkwardness and people thinking less of me personally. Other people aren't in that same situation, and have to make that assessment based on things like personal risk to their safety if they say something.
But because I'm in that position, when I opt not to say something when someone does or says something ignorant or offensive, I'm writing them off. I'm saying "This isn't going to work, this person is a waste of my time and energy, this won't accomplish anything meaningful". And I'm not just writing off them personally, I'm also writing off everyone else who is witnessing the situation and would be party to the conversation, because even if the conversation would accomplish absolutely nothing with the person actually doing or saying the offensive thing, it might actually affect other people observing who themselves might have lingering doubts over the offensive person's words or deeds, but for whatever reason aren't saying anything. These people might agree with what I'm saying and might take my argument to heart, and might say something privately to me later or at the very least ruminate on what I said. By not saying anything I'm writing them off too as completely outside my energy to change.
Like I said, this is me, and I've come to understand that confrontation is a privilege and that not everyone can be free about it. That there are very real repercussions to confrontation for many people beyond just "you could make things awkward" and that this is something that weighs heavily on the decision to say something or not. I understand that. But I think that, something to bear in mind for anyone when weighing their options to confront someone over being ignorant or offensive, included in those factors, is the idea that you are writing them and everyone else around them off. Because that can be a lot more of an indictment of their character than you might first realize if you give yourself pause to consider it, and if you reflect on it that way and you find yourself in a position where you do feel safe to have the conversation, you might find you do have the energy to have the conversation even if it's not for the sake of the person themselves but for observers at the least.
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
There was a thing not so long ago where someone was trying to demand one of the Game Grumps to out themself under the pretense that it's going to help young LGBT folk that watch their show
It was some tremendous mistreatment of said Grump - and is also a reminder that nobody is responsible for representing any minority group they belong to.
Omg which grump is it Danny? He's adorbs.
Ross is ok but his voice makes me wanna strike a child.
Hahaha, I don't even know where sandwiches come from. I'd have a snowball's chance in Hell of making that myself without destroying it (and our kitchen). Besides, she loves baking shit and getting to use all her toys, I wouldn't dream of taking that away from her.
There was a thing not so long ago where someone was trying to demand one of the Game Grumps to out themself under the pretense that it's going to help young LGBT folk that watch their show
It was some tremendous mistreatment of said Grump - and is also a reminder that nobody is responsible for representing any minority group they belong to.
Omg which grump is it Danny? He's adorbs.
Ross is ok but his voice makes me wanna strike a child.
I kinda don't want to say because he did not confirm nor deny it.
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WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
"oh, so the police abuse their power here, too, I guess?"
uh, sure, probably?
"because I was at a light and a cruiser flashed his light to go through the red light and then later he turned it off so there was clearly no emergency, that's an abuse of power"
I would argue that accusing someone of being ignorant is far more likely to make them immediately dismiss the words that follow than saying that someone is speaking from a position of privilege.
You don't have to call people ignorant; you can teach them instead. That's why I think it's better than privilege.
Anyway, if nobody but me learned anything, then I lost the argument. My on topic light blinks harder with every post, and it's blinking really hard now, so I won't distract you from talking about what you want and need to talk about.
You want to argue over which term to use to describe the problem people have understanding an inherent disparity in circumstances, and then not use either of the terms when trying to explain it to them.
Okay.
Well, I don't call people names. I find that if you coherently learn a term on an objective level and you give yourself time to think about it, you'll be better able to honestly judge to yourself if it applies to you. None of this saving face in front of others nonsense.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
On a note very vaguely related to this discussion, I was visiting my parents at the weekend and my aunt and uncle came for lunch. I was sat at the table with a pair on either side, trapped in the crossfire. They talked about immigrants, benefits scroungers, and a bunch of other daily mail esque topics.
At one point my uncle was talking about a holiday they're taking where they're staying in a couples hotel, and I think he said "(unfortunately) they let in same-sex couples too" (i am not 100% sure he said unfortunately, but I may be in denial).
These are nice people. They're my family! They love me and shit. And it drives me insane that they talk like this. And when I try to debate them I feel so inarticulate, I can never get the point across that I want, and I just get angry. So I don't bother, because my emotional outbursts just get smiles and eye-rolls and they go back into the echo chamber of all their friends.
I feel more and more like an alien visitor when I go back home these days.
On a note very vaguely related to this discussion, I was visiting my parents at the weekend and my aunt and uncle came for lunch. I was sat at the table with a pair on either side, trapped in the crossfire. They talked about immigrants, benefits scroungers, and a bunch of other daily mail esque topics.
At one point my uncle was talking about a holiday they're taking where they're staying in a couples hotel, and I think he said "(unfortunately) they let in same-sex couples too" (i am not 100% sure he said unfortunately, but I may be in denial).
These are nice people. They're my family! They love me and shit. And it drives me insane that they talk like this. And when I try to debate them I feel so inarticulate, I can never get the point across that I want, and I just get angry. So I don't bother, because my emotional outbursts just get smiles and eye-rolls and they go back into the echo chamber of all their friends.
I feel more and more like an alien visitor when I go back home these days.
Look 'em dead in the eye and quote comrade kruschev
This is something I literally just posted on a friend's Facebook when they were talking about not having the patience to educate people on ignorant bullshit: snip
this post has me thinking about a time I was the privileged person who could've confronted bigotry. it doesn't feel like I was making a judgment call on the person/people involved, but more like I let myself get shut down
I was working for a non-profit, part of a group told to make a volunteer training presentation focused on acceptance and respecting diversity. the idea was to ensure healthy relationships between volunteer workers and clients. no one seemed interested in mentioning LGBT people in the presentation, which was a big thing to skip over considering the volunteer pool was almost entirely religious
long story short, I brought it up at a meeting with our higher ups and was immediately answered with "we think people make a bigger deal out of LGBT issues than is really necessary so we don't need to talk about it".
I was stunned and let it go. still get pissed I didn't press the issue
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WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
"oh, so the police abuse their power here, too, I guess?"
uh, sure, probably?
"because I was at a light and a cruiser flashed his light to go through the red light and then later he turned it off so there was clearly no emergency, that's an abuse of power"
or is that just my fevered imagination, from way down here in the sticks?
Speaking with the obliviousness of a non-gay English person, it seems to be. Which is why it's all the more jarring when I go back to the super white, conservative village where my parents live.
You're comparing running into crazy rhetoric on extremist parts of tumblr and "all PIV is rape" radfem blogs to the sort of bigoted shit you see from people in real life, out in the world. People aren't normally going to run into the former unless they go mining for it online (or visit /r/TumblrInAction) whereas you can walk outside and run into the latter
And if someone refuses to listen to reason after encountering "SJWs" on the internet, chances are they were never going to come around anyway
First of all, I'm not in any way comparing the "plight" of people who are annoyed by discussions of privilege to real-life bigotry. I'm talking purely in terms of analyzing how the general level of discourse re: privilege came to be at the level it's at, how it could hypothetically be more constructive, and why changing the term we used (which someone was suggesting earlier) would do absolutely nothing.
Second, you don't need to go anywhere near that level of extremist environment to see shades of these kinds of attitudes. Both sides of it tend to crop up in some capacity anywhere the topic is discussed, even here on the PA forums. Well, not "die cis scum"; I've never actually seen anyone say that unironically in real life.
Third, some people (maybe even most) really do turn out to be completely hopeless, but I don't doubt that there are also a lot of uneducated fence-sitters who end up driven the wrong way by circumstance. Didn't Gabe himself have a big post on the front page a while back about this exact thing, where he had a mutually antagonistic relationship with trans activists for a while and then later changed his understanding?
I wish we had a higher LGBT population here, town is kinda a shithole in that regard so they constantly just peace out of here and you can't really blame them.
We've had 3 different Trans employees at our work, mostly because we are one of the few places that will hire them, and hated losing every one of them because they actually worked unlike all these entitled shits we get stuck with half the time.
But each one moved shortly after transitioning solely because of shitty treatment in this town and I can't even blame them, because it's a shithole. it pisses me off
I'm not sure that 'police privilege' is a thing in this context. Isn't it used to mean things that you have no control over? Like, you could have the privilege of being a police officer, that is, you would have had a much harder time becoming one if you weren't _______.
Yes, the police officer is privileged but not in the social justice context?
This is the population distribution of the US by district:
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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When someone says something egregious and offensive, whether it's transphobic or racist or sexist or whatever, I've come to realize that when I don't call them out on it I'm essentially making not just a judgment call on the situation but on them as a person.
I'm essentially deciding that my odds of making meaningful headway with them on this issue is less than the amount of energy I am capable of expending at that time to do so, if it is possible at all, and/or the circumstances we're in at the time are not conducive to that conversation making a meaningful change in what they think. I'm writing them off, as a person, by not saying anything.
Now, I can say that because I'm in a position of privilege as a white, cisgender man. Confronting someone over being ignorant or offensive is generally a zero risk proposition for me, I'm not really opening myself up to much in the way of rebuke beyond potential social awkwardness and people thinking less of me personally. Other people aren't in that same situation, and have to make that assessment based on things like personal risk to their safety if they say something.
But because I'm in that position, when I opt not to say something when someone does or says something ignorant or offensive, I'm writing them off. I'm saying "This isn't going to work, this person is a waste of my time and energy, this won't accomplish anything meaningful". And I'm not just writing off them personally, I'm also writing off everyone else who is witnessing the situation and would be party to the conversation, because even if the conversation would accomplish absolutely nothing with the person actually doing or saying the offensive thing, it might actually affect other people observing who themselves might have lingering doubts over the offensive person's words or deeds, but for whatever reason aren't saying anything. These people might agree with what I'm saying and might take my argument to heart, and might say something privately to me later or at the very least ruminate on what I said. By not saying anything I'm writing them off too as completely outside my energy to change.
Like I said, this is me, and I've come to understand that confrontation is a privilege and that not everyone can be free about it. That there are very real repercussions to confrontation for many people beyond just "you could make things awkward" and that this is something that weighs heavily on the decision to say something or not. I understand that. But I think that, something to bear in mind for anyone when weighing their options to confront someone over being ignorant or offensive, included in those factors, is the idea that you are writing them and everyone else around them off. Because that can be a lot more of an indictment of their character than you might first realize if you give yourself pause to consider it, and if you reflect on it that way and you find yourself in a position where you do feel safe to have the conversation, you might find you do have the energy to have the conversation even if it's not for the sake of the person themselves but for observers at the least.
Omg which grump is it Danny? He's adorbs.
Ross is ok but his voice makes me wanna strike a child.
What I'm trying to say is that I'm really lazy.
I kinda don't want to say because he did not confirm nor deny it.
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
"oh, so the police abuse their power here, too, I guess?"
uh, sure, probably?
"because I was at a light and a cruiser flashed his light to go through the red light and then later he turned it off so there was clearly no emergency, that's an abuse of power"
uh, I guess
I think 100% of the world's population qualifies as gay by that standard?
Finally, my plans are coming to fruition!
GoFund The Portland Trans Pride March, or Show It To People, or Else!
Well, I don't call people names. I find that if you coherently learn a term on an objective level and you give yourself time to think about it, you'll be better able to honestly judge to yourself if it applies to you. None of this saving face in front of others nonsense.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
But the police officer could have been on their way to an emergency. They don't need to use their lights all the time.
Where would the world be
I've seen them do that because the light was taking too long and they immediately went into a McDonald's drive-thru.
At the time it made me laugh. I guess I just assumed all cops and ambulances do that.
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At one point my uncle was talking about a holiday they're taking where they're staying in a couples hotel, and I think he said "(unfortunately) they let in same-sex couples too" (i am not 100% sure he said unfortunately, but I may be in denial).
These are nice people. They're my family! They love me and shit. And it drives me insane that they talk like this. And when I try to debate them I feel so inarticulate, I can never get the point across that I want, and I just get angry. So I don't bother, because my emotional outbursts just get smiles and eye-rolls and they go back into the echo chamber of all their friends.
I feel more and more like an alien visitor when I go back home these days.
it has led to accidents
Super gay.
Look 'em dead in the eye and quote comrade kruschev
"History is on our side. We will bury you."
or is that just my fevered imagination, from way down here in the sticks?
this post has me thinking about a time I was the privileged person who could've confronted bigotry. it doesn't feel like I was making a judgment call on the person/people involved, but more like I let myself get shut down
I was working for a non-profit, part of a group told to make a volunteer training presentation focused on acceptance and respecting diversity. the idea was to ensure healthy relationships between volunteer workers and clients. no one seemed interested in mentioning LGBT people in the presentation, which was a big thing to skip over considering the volunteer pool was almost entirely religious
long story short, I brought it up at a meeting with our higher ups and was immediately answered with "we think people make a bigger deal out of LGBT issues than is really necessary so we don't need to talk about it".
I was stunned and let it go. still get pissed I didn't press the issue
It also startles and places every other driver around in a heightened sense of anxiety.
http://laist.com/2014/08/27/da_wont_charge_deputy_who_hit_napst.php
Police here have the privilege to run you over and get away with it.
Speaking with the obliviousness of a non-gay English person, it seems to be. Which is why it's all the more jarring when I go back to the super white, conservative village where my parents live.
The Cornish pride parade was last weekend, but I was away and missed it. I dunno how big it is but it's gotta beat the Bielefeld 3-float extravaganza.
Second, you don't need to go anywhere near that level of extremist environment to see shades of these kinds of attitudes. Both sides of it tend to crop up in some capacity anywhere the topic is discussed, even here on the PA forums. Well, not "die cis scum"; I've never actually seen anyone say that unironically in real life.
Third, some people (maybe even most) really do turn out to be completely hopeless, but I don't doubt that there are also a lot of uneducated fence-sitters who end up driven the wrong way by circumstance. Didn't Gabe himself have a big post on the front page a while back about this exact thing, where he had a mutually antagonistic relationship with trans activists for a while and then later changed his understanding?
We've had 3 different Trans employees at our work, mostly because we are one of the few places that will hire them, and hated losing every one of them because they actually worked unlike all these entitled shits we get stuck with half the time.
But each one moved shortly after transitioning solely because of shitty treatment in this town and I can't even blame them, because it's a shithole. it pisses me off
Yes, the police officer is privileged but not in the social justice context?
But according to twitter, it's east/west?
This is the population distribution of the US by district:
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I'd be interested in seeing that map with Alaska included, though.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
I live in the UK. I think our hatred is pretty evenly distributed.
(I knew that already, but that map makes me sad!)
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Teehee, "turd fart"
You asking to spoon? :winky: