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[Heroes of the Storm] 100% XP Boost active through June 24

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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    jothki wrote: »
    Someone sell me on Zagara's Reconstitution talent. It looks kind of weak just from the numbers, but everyone seems to like it.

    Isn't the main thing that her other level 1 talents are trash?

    My experience seems to be this is the case. It's not a great talent and will only give you a minor edge in lane, and it is downright unnoticeable late game when you are prolly going to be either full or dead unless you have 0 support. But the other options are remarkably lackluster. buffs that skills do not need and a very bad pushing talent.

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    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    I do like demolitionist but yeah it doesn't really last into the late game.


    Then again, there aren't too many lv 1 talents that really make any kind of difference late game?


    HP/MP Regeneration master and azmo dunks are some?

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
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    MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Don't underestimate that creep regen.

    As they say when you play Zerg in SC2, "Always be creepin'."

    Drop tumors everywhere. Before fights, mid fight during cooldowns. After you win the fight.

    The speed they provide is your escape. And the heal is almost that of a well with the talent. Every little bit does help.

    u7stthr17eud.png
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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    I mean, her Reconstruction talent isn't very useful late game either, but in the early game - especially if she's solo lane - it helps a lot with keeping the pressure on the enemy team.

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    InsanityInsanity Registered User regular
    The long range banelings can be a game changer on maps where people need to stand still to channel objectives.

    gBpkw.jpg
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    FryFry Registered User regular
    Extra regen at level 1 helps you bully people in lane early game. The other talents don't help with that. Demolitionist only matters if you get to take a LOT of autoattacks at a tower, which doesn't usually happen. Tougher roachlings is good for soaking one extra tower shot, making it less good at wasting ammo than Demolitionist, and I don't think it helps you to merc significantly better (just tank with your face, while you're on creep). Double Baneling distance is maybe ok, but the standard range is plenty long enough for most purposes.

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    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    We tried demo in one PA group game on haunted mines.

    Since we did a 4-1 push we were able to take down a single tower with the very first push (within 2 mins of the game) where the ammo soak helped a ton.


    It didn't really come into play much after that other than maybe draining some tower forts during some down time that may have helped the golem take less shots on a run.


    So nothing game breaking but I think it definitely added value on that map.



    Other maps the regen buff is generally the go-to.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
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    morgan_cokemorgan_coke Registered User regular
    I'm becoming more and more convinced that team comps are not nearly as important as people generally assign them to be. If your last guy (gal) or two is not comfortable drafting the "right" choice for team comp, you're just much, much better off with them drafting someone they're actually good with. A good assassin is worth a hell of a lot more than a bad tank.

    I've won a lot of games lately with unorthodox comps vs. teams with "great" comps, because everyone on my team was better with the character they were playing. This doesn't really work if you've got guys who spend the whole match complaining about what other people picked, but if everyone just does their best, you'll be fine. Also, team morale is important, and it seems like it's easy to start the ball rolling on that in the draft menu, then keep it up in game by congratulating/thanking other players. A little sugar seems to go a long ways.

    XBL: Morgan Coke Yes, there is a space, not an underscore. I'm old school like that.
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    FryFry Registered User regular
    MMMig wrote: »
    We tried demo in one PA group game on haunted mines.

    Since we did a 4-1 push we were able to take down a single tower with the very first push (within 2 mins of the game) where the ammo soak helped a ton.

    It didn't really come into play much after that other than maybe draining some tower forts during some down time that may have helped the golem take less shots on a run.

    So nothing game breaking but I think it definitely added value on that map.

    Other maps the regen buff is generally the go-to.
    Did you actually deplete the ammo on the tower before you killed it? Because a 4-man push is exactly the scenario I think of when I think "Demolitionist doesn't do anything" because you kill the tower so very fast.

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    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    Depleted the first tower almost instantly since it was trying to shoot minions / roaches.


    Second one was left with maybe 1 ammo when we had to run to mines?

    ed: heck, we might have even taken the second tower down too, I can't recall.

    MMMig on
    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
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    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Regarding azmodunk, does anyone ever NOT build his lazer up?


    That thing just melts ANYTHING (heroes and buildings) and is an almost guaranteed closer on any fleeing hopefuls if your positioning is good.


    The only lazer talent I MIGHT not take is the one that reduces the mana cost since there's another that's good on that tier.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
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    DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    MMMig wrote: »
    Regarding azmodunk, does anyone ever NOT build his lazer up?


    That thing just melts ANYTHING (heroes and buildings) and is an almost guaranteed closer on any fleeing hopefuls if your positioning is good.


    The only lazer talent I MIGHT not take is the one that reduces the mana cost since there's another that's good on that tier.

    There's two general Azmo builds, I'd say.

    The first is a siege/push-centric build with Demonic Invasion: http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/azmodan#lQ_P
    Normally I'd take Burn the Weak at 4, but with the Promote buffs this patch, Bound Minion is once again REALLY GOOD. Infernal Globe at 4 is simply because there's not really much better (Merc Lord maybe, if you're really REALLY focusing on pushing hard?). Blazing Demons is actually a really good talent, but it means not taking March of Sin. Again, maybe a good choice if you're not really teamfighting that much.

    And then there's the PvP/Dunk build with Black Circle: http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/azmodan#gsHN
    This build is all about farming stacks for your Q and dunking people for half their health or more. I'd honestly even consider taking Bound Minion with this build too, just because it's so strong right now. Gluttony is great though. First Aid is also a consideration, but Infernal Globe is way too good to pass up. Fifth Circle is also really good, if you don't need Bolt.

    Dibby on
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    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    I'm not sold on black circle yet.
    I've used it a lot and it just doesn't last long enough, and roots me, when azmo shouldn't be rooted due to focus.


    I'm doing PvP (lazer still melts structures so fast it might as well also cover pushing) with demonic invasion since it's a good burst spell and then further sustain dps with the little dudes.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
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    Alucard6986Alucard6986 xbox: Ubeltanzer swtor: UbelRegistered User regular
    Pvp is black circle, it's not even a choice. It give you the extra juice to make the dunk kill and murderizes pushed forts with minions nearby.


    Demonic invasion is mostly just for mercs.

    PSN: Ubeltanzer Blizzard: Ubel#1258
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    MorkathMorkath Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    .
    Pvp is black circle, it's not even a choice. It give you the extra juice to make the dunk kill and murderizes pushed forts with minions nearby.


    Demonic invasion is mostly just for mercs.

    Demonic invasion is good for forts and can be useful in team fights. It works great for forts because you can drop it right before a team fight starts and it will wreck a keep with the NPC's.

    People also don't suspect it in a team fight, so it can do some decent damage before getting wrecked. Assuming there isnt a ton of AoE getting dropped.

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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Morkath wrote: »
    .
    Pvp is black circle, it's not even a choice. It give you the extra juice to make the dunk kill and murderizes pushed forts with minions nearby.


    Demonic invasion is mostly just for mercs.

    Demonic invasion is good for forts and can be useful in team fights. It works great for forts because you can drop it right before a team fight starts and it will wreck a keep with the NPC's.

    People also don't suspect it in a team fight, so it can do some decent damage before getting wrecked. Assuming there isnt a ton of AoE getting dropped.

    Also, I assume it would wreck havoc with enemies' skillshots.

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Extra regen at level 1 helps you bully people in lane early game. The other talents don't help with that. Demolitionist only matters if you get to take a LOT of autoattacks at a tower, which doesn't usually happen. Tougher roachlings is good for soaking one extra tower shot, making it less good at wasting ammo than Demolitionist, and I don't think it helps you to merc significantly better (just tank with your face, while you're on creep). Double Baneling distance is maybe ok, but the standard range is plenty long enough for most purposes.

    That depends how you play. Especially early mid game (objectives up but forts still up too) you can put a good amount of pressure down with it. You can usually get like 10 seconds alone in a lane (depending on the map) and if you just go straight for a tower from the side and drop roaches, you can usually completely drain a tower with little damage before the other team can react. It is absolutely annoying as fuck for the other team. Especially on maps like Mines (best place) or Dragon or even Garden where you can likely get close enough while the team is distracted.

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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    If you are getting that much free pressure on a tower that early (when it would matter) then the other team is bad and doing something terribly wrong. Having Zag out there without that extra regen she is very, very easy to kill off very quick.

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    InvictusInvictus Registered User regular
    Kai_San wrote: »
    If you are getting that much free pressure on a tower that early (when it would matter) then the other team is bad and doing something terribly wrong. Having Zag out there without that extra regen she is very, very easy to kill off very quick.

    Seems like it could work on Haunted Mines since the team with Sylvanas usually stacks four on their golem lane. Zag could rush the off lane while the Sylvanas lane is 4v4 and probably do quite well since it would just be 1v1.

    Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
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    azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    I actually feel like im making progress with Sylvanas. A few really good games last night... I think the key to her is that dispite her being great dps and a very aggressive kind of class, you need to resist that. Play really defensively, hit and run, assist others and otherwise make them hate you to death for every poke you do.

    azith28 on
    Stercus, Stercus, Stercus, Morituri Sum
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    Kai_San wrote: »
    If you are getting that much free pressure on a tower that early (when it would matter) then the other team is bad and doing something terribly wrong. Having Zag out there without that extra regen she is very, very easy to kill off very quick.

    It's not much free pressure. That's the thing. You can deplete a towers ammo in a matter of a few seconds. And your minion waves push alot harder once towers are down. You plink away at the tower when you can and it'll be drained very quickly and that puts you at a distinct advantage in lane, whether you are in it or not.

    And on maps like Mines it's a good tool for the same reason Sylvannas is, since they accomplish basically the same thing.

    It's not a bad talent and you don't need alot of time on a tower to make it worthwhile. There's just usually better ones at the same tier that contribute to more parts of the game.

    shryke on
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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    azith28 wrote: »
    I actually feel like im making progress with Sylvanas. A few really good games last night... I think the key to her is that dispite her being great dps and a very aggressive kind of class, you need to resist that. Play really defensively, hit and run, assist others and otherwise make them hate you to death for every poke you do.

    Sylvanas is all burst in a team fight situation. You throw your dagger, shoot all 5 of your arrows, and then if you're safe you can shoot your super weak auto-attack. Or if the enemy is pressuring you, it's perfectly acceptable to back away and let your cooldowns come back. Despite having a bow, you have to play Sylvanas like she's a mage.

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    Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    azith28 wrote: »
    I actually feel like im making progress with Sylvanas. A few really good games last night... I think the key to her is that dispite her being great dps and a very aggressive kind of class, you need to resist that. Play really defensively, hit and run, assist others and otherwise make them hate you to death for every poke you do.

    The real secret is that Sylvanas doesn't have great dps. Her attacks and abilities are fairly piddly but she's hard to pin down and with range on q and vuln on w she can flit into a fight, chuck her dagger, dump her shots, and keep wandering around the edge, and then she's got pretty good chase damage to close it out.

    But you never want to get in a straight up fight with any specialist or assassin and many warriors because you are going to lose hard without using other abilities like envenom, bfb, or ult.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
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    skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Yeah, Sylvanas isn't about dropping someone in one rotation, it's about sticking around the edge of the fight and being a long term nuisance.

    Just keep making their ENTIRE TEAM VULNERABLE with a dagger....

    Tycho wrote:
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    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Knight_ wrote: »
    azith28 wrote: »
    I actually feel like im making progress with Sylvanas. A few really good games last night... I think the key to her is that dispite her being great dps and a very aggressive kind of class, you need to resist that. Play really defensively, hit and run, assist others and otherwise make them hate you to death for every poke you do.

    The real secret is that Sylvanas doesn't have great dps. Her attacks and abilities are fairly piddly but she's hard to pin down and with range on q and vuln on w she can flit into a fight, chuck her dagger, dump her shots, and keep wandering around the edge, and then she's got pretty good chase damage to close it out.

    But you never want to get in a straight up fight with any specialist or assassin and many warriors because you are going to lose hard without using other abilities like envenom, bfb, or ult.

    Well, DPS is what she does have. She does not have burst. That is what assassins have that cause them to win vs her. She has the survivability of a squishy ranged assassin but the lack of burst most non assassins have. Her DPS is great and if she is left alive in a fight she will usually contribute a significant chunk of damage. If you spec out dagger to hell and back it not only hurts like a bitch, it gives you team a HUGE advantage in a fight. Also that Heroic is some serious shit.

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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    sylvanas actually has a decent amount of lane burst if she drops a 6 stack of Qs on her opponent, it's just she rarely has enough burst to actually kill someone

    but if she's got a partner in lane she should be able to threaten a lot of people pre-teamfights

    liEt3nH.png
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    squall99xsquall99x Registered User regular
    Well this has definitely been a full tilt day. Haven't won a single game yet, even games where we were significantly ahead people started making poor decisions and trickling into teamfights. Think I'm up to like 5 or 6 losses in a row heh.

    oHqYBTXm.jpg
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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    Sylvanas can one shot minion waves with talents, but her sustained DPS generally sucks. That's why she shouldn't solo merc camps.

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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited May 2015
    Hmm. Why is Demonic Tyrael unpurchasable?

    Not that I want to buy it, it's just some new tints for his base model. Does it change the voice too?

    edit: aha.
    With our next Weekly Sale on Monday, May 18, we will be temporarily removing the Demonic Tyrael and Blood Elf Tyrande Skins from the in-game Shop so that they can undergo improvements that will bring them more in-line with their current real-money prices.

    Echo on
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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    sylvanas actually has a decent amount of lane burst if she drops a 6 stack of Qs on her opponent, it's just she rarely has enough burst to actually kill someone

    but if she's got a partner in lane she should be able to threaten a lot of people pre-teamfights

    It's fun to go 1-1-3 in lanes with Sylvanas + two others and just start the game by nuking down a tower since you can stay out of range of the second tower.

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    KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Morkath wrote: »
    .
    Pvp is black circle, it's not even a choice. It give you the extra juice to make the dunk kill and murderizes pushed forts with minions nearby.


    Demonic invasion is mostly just for mercs.

    Demonic invasion is good for forts and can be useful in team fights. It works great for forts because you can drop it right before a team fight starts and it will wreck a keep with the NPC's.

    People also don't suspect it in a team fight, so it can do some decent damage before getting wrecked. Assuming there isnt a ton of AoE getting dropped.

    Also, I assume it would wreck havoc with enemies' skillshots.

    I love rain o grunts... it has a lot of utility. Helps with pushing, can create an instant push on a fort, does a reasonable amount of dps, can be used to zone objectives that have a timer to cap and can create an obstacle if your team has lost a team fight and is fleeing.

    Black circle, I just can't get the hang of... it's so bloody short.

    Bnet - Khraul#1822
    Gamertag - Khraul
    PSN - Razide6
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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Sylvanus' Q is nothing even remotely close to burst?

    She does have sustained damage because you take the auto attack increasing talent on skill use and stagger Qs. That and daggers is pretty nice damage.

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    Khraul wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Morkath wrote: »
    .
    Pvp is black circle, it's not even a choice. It give you the extra juice to make the dunk kill and murderizes pushed forts with minions nearby.


    Demonic invasion is mostly just for mercs.

    Demonic invasion is good for forts and can be useful in team fights. It works great for forts because you can drop it right before a team fight starts and it will wreck a keep with the NPC's.

    People also don't suspect it in a team fight, so it can do some decent damage before getting wrecked. Assuming there isnt a ton of AoE getting dropped.

    Also, I assume it would wreck havoc with enemies' skillshots.

    I love rain o grunts... it has a lot of utility. Helps with pushing, can create an instant push on a fort, does a reasonable amount of dps, can be used to zone objectives that have a timer to cap and can create an obstacle if your team has lost a team fight and is fleeing.

    Black circle, I just can't get the hang of... it's so bloody short.

    The idea with Black Circle is just to drop it and cast immediately. You don't need a big window of time. When you know you want to shoot an orb, or if you get lucky and someone is in melee range and you can laser them while standing still, that's when you drop your circle.

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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Khraul wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Morkath wrote: »
    .
    Pvp is black circle, it's not even a choice. It give you the extra juice to make the dunk kill and murderizes pushed forts with minions nearby.


    Demonic invasion is mostly just for mercs.

    Demonic invasion is good for forts and can be useful in team fights. It works great for forts because you can drop it right before a team fight starts and it will wreck a keep with the NPC's.

    People also don't suspect it in a team fight, so it can do some decent damage before getting wrecked. Assuming there isnt a ton of AoE getting dropped.

    Also, I assume it would wreck havoc with enemies' skillshots.

    I love rain o grunts... it has a lot of utility. Helps with pushing, can create an instant push on a fort, does a reasonable amount of dps, can be used to zone objectives that have a timer to cap and can create an obstacle if your team has lost a team fight and is fleeing.

    Black circle, I just can't get the hang of... it's so bloody short.

    The idea with Black Circle is just to drop it and cast immediately. You don't need a big window of time. When you know you want to shoot an orb, or if you get lucky and someone is in melee range and you can laser them while standing still, that's when you drop your circle.

    Yes, think of it like Kael'thas' trait. (Although I don't play Azmodan really so I'm not sure how accurate that is...)

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Sylvanus' Q is nothing even remotely close to burst?

    She does have sustained damage because you take the auto attack increasing talent on skill use and stagger Qs. That and daggers is pretty nice damage.

    eat 5 in 2 seconds at level 1 and tell me that again

    liEt3nH.png
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    UrQuanLord88UrQuanLord88 Registered User regular
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Sylvanus' Q is nothing even remotely close to burst?

    She does have sustained damage because you take the auto attack increasing talent on skill use and stagger Qs. That and daggers is pretty nice damage.

    Thats considered bursty because once you're out of arrows in your quiver, you're pretty much useless in terms of damage. Having the Remorseless talent (+25% autoattack dmg after spellcast) helps even out her damage over time but it is still rather spikey. Add Wailing Arrow on top of that and you have the definition of burst

    http://steamcommunity.com/id/urquanlord88
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    MorkathMorkath Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    kime wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Khraul wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Morkath wrote: »
    .
    Pvp is black circle, it's not even a choice. It give you the extra juice to make the dunk kill and murderizes pushed forts with minions nearby.


    Demonic invasion is mostly just for mercs.

    Demonic invasion is good for forts and can be useful in team fights. It works great for forts because you can drop it right before a team fight starts and it will wreck a keep with the NPC's.

    People also don't suspect it in a team fight, so it can do some decent damage before getting wrecked. Assuming there isnt a ton of AoE getting dropped.

    Also, I assume it would wreck havoc with enemies' skillshots.

    I love rain o grunts... it has a lot of utility. Helps with pushing, can create an instant push on a fort, does a reasonable amount of dps, can be used to zone objectives that have a timer to cap and can create an obstacle if your team has lost a team fight and is fleeing.

    Black circle, I just can't get the hang of... it's so bloody short.

    The idea with Black Circle is just to drop it and cast immediately. You don't need a big window of time. When you know you want to shoot an orb, or if you get lucky and someone is in melee range and you can laser them while standing still, that's when you drop your circle.

    Yes, think of it like Kael'thas' trait. (Although I don't play Azmodan really so I'm not sure how accurate that is...)

    It's accurate.

    Whenever you are gonna cast a dunk that you are pretty sure will hit, circle first. The cooldown is short enough you just want to be constantly using it.

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    programjunkieprogramjunkie Registered User regular
    I'm becoming more and more convinced that team comps are not nearly as important as people generally assign them to be. If your last guy (gal) or two is not comfortable drafting the "right" choice for team comp, you're just much, much better off with them drafting someone they're actually good with. A good assassin is worth a hell of a lot more than a bad tank.

    I've won a lot of games lately with unorthodox comps vs. teams with "great" comps, because everyone on my team was better with the character they were playing. This doesn't really work if you've got guys who spend the whole match complaining about what other people picked, but if everyone just does their best, you'll be fine. Also, team morale is important, and it seems like it's easy to start the ball rolling on that in the draft menu, then keep it up in game by congratulating/thanking other players. A little sugar seems to go a long ways.

    Team comp matters a lot. It doesn't matter so much it negates skill, but the thing is, there's no guarantee you will get 5 people who can play their heroes very well, particularly in an unorthodox fashion. It's possible to win without a front line, for example, but it takes far, far more skill than with one, as every player needs to be positioned not just well, but outright better than the enemy team.

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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Comp matters when skill levels are roughly equal and somewhat high. It doesn't matter how much better Rehgar is over Li Li when the former keeps face checking bushes when he's alone and half his team is dead.

    YL9WnCY.png
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    KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    Morkath wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Khraul wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Morkath wrote: »
    .
    Pvp is black circle, it's not even a choice. It give you the extra juice to make the dunk kill and murderizes pushed forts with minions nearby.


    Demonic invasion is mostly just for mercs.

    Demonic invasion is good for forts and can be useful in team fights. It works great for forts because you can drop it right before a team fight starts and it will wreck a keep with the NPC's.

    People also don't suspect it in a team fight, so it can do some decent damage before getting wrecked. Assuming there isnt a ton of AoE getting dropped.

    Also, I assume it would wreck havoc with enemies' skillshots.

    I love rain o grunts... it has a lot of utility. Helps with pushing, can create an instant push on a fort, does a reasonable amount of dps, can be used to zone objectives that have a timer to cap and can create an obstacle if your team has lost a team fight and is fleeing.

    Black circle, I just can't get the hang of... it's so bloody short.

    The idea with Black Circle is just to drop it and cast immediately. You don't need a big window of time. When you know you want to shoot an orb, or if you get lucky and someone is in melee range and you can laser them while standing still, that's when you drop your circle.

    Yes, think of it like Kael'thas' trait. (Although I don't play Azmodan really so I'm not sure how accurate that is...)

    It's accurate.

    Whenever you are gonna cast a dunk that you are pretty sure will hit, circle first. The cooldown is short enough you just want to be constantly using it.

    I love the advice in this thread...

    The goal tonight is to get abathur to 10... maybe in between matches I'll try some black circle three pointers on ol azmo...

    Bnet - Khraul#1822
    Gamertag - Khraul
    PSN - Razide6
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