Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
That's good, but we're going to do need to a lot more for long term prevention than simply deplatforming. That's just the easiest route to take, because making systemic change in society takes a lot of money, resources and time.
Well, removing the group "Incel" from the news is a band aid. That's just the current iteration. The problem is toxic masculinity and regressive opposition to feminism. "Incel" violence is just...the same old violence against women. It's the same fight as people working against domestic violence. It's the same fight as people trying to make rape and sexual assault something that can be more reliably prosecuted. It's all the same fight.
So deplatforming Incels works to undermine the cult, but the problem that the cult grew around? It goes way deeper than that. That requires the societal changes we've been debating in this thread. You can't deplatform domestic violence. You can't deplatform police trying to convince women not to report a rape. There's systemic problems that allows these things to happen.
Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
That's good, but we're going to do need to a lot more for long term prevention than simply deplatforming. That's just the easiest route to take, because making systemic change in society takes a lot of money, resources and time.
I think deplatforming is probably enough, assuming you were also still planning on tackling other more well known feminist issues. Just you need to not just focus on the Incels but the rest of the red-pill ecosystem that makes them. Otherwise you're just brushing the issue under the rug, some will make it out, some will just kill themselves but a lot would also just appear as increased crime/disease rates and a political will to dis-empower women, or at least not be too worried when it happens - this isn't new, this is just how you end up with a hierarchical Patriarchy.
What's new is that they are gathering in one place, communicating and segregating themselves more than you'd expect. It's an opportunity to act, because to not act or to just suppress just takes us back to the days when "Men were Men" and all that entails. These are people who are the most striking examples of the fallout from toxic masculinity and how it can make apparent 'winners' into 'losers' regardless of their demographic backgrounds.
Seems like these are the guys you need to be able to change to make the change.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
I mean... r/Braincels still exists, and even though it's been quarantined by Reddit (not in 2017, but this year - Braincels was allowed to flourish through most of 2018) all you need it someone to give you the url name and they can find it.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
At what point does this endless circle if trying to get thru to incels become abuser coddling.
Ya there's empathy to be had there, but it seems all the empathy is being directed at how to help these "poor misunderstood folk" than doing anything to help their growing list of victims or prevent future incidents in any way for what seems to be the risk of hurting an incels feelings?
The cure can come later , atm my focus is on taking away their power to prevent future bullshit from them.
This isn't mutually exclusive. This isn't any different than authorities figuring out how criminals work or creating preventive measures. Entire side industries are creating doing this type of work, RE: serial killers. Addressing incels feelings are a major reason why they go down that path to begin, take that away and we get less incels and more men being safer around women. A lot of the discussion has been in prevention, which entails doing exactly this so vulnerable people don't fall down that rabbit hole to begin with. Simply attacking them will only do so much (though deplatforming will do wonders to cut off recruitment and radicalisation) and will make them double down because they'll see it as a confirmation of their beliefs.
The problem is it feel a mutually exclusive atm in favor of incels. All this talk and worrying about hurting the feelings of one side while the other side is being actually murdered.
Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
Another very active Incel subreddit is up and running because Reddit does nothing about communities ban evading. Case in point, when Reddit nuked the Q Anon subreddit the community simply fired up a new one and try to do a better job of keeping their psychotic members from posting about wanting to murder people to avoid getting banned again. I reported the new one and Reddit did jack shit. Same thing with the Incel subreddit. The new one is technically quarantined but it's still accessible, active, and currently heavily participating in the campaign against female sex workers.
Tbh, I've been wondering how effective a campaign against Reddit and Steve Hoffman to get their advertising revenue pulled for actively enabling white supremacists, incels, etc. would work because it's probably the only thing that would get them to change their tune.
At what point does this endless circle if trying to get thru to incels become abuser coddling.
Ya there's empathy to be had there, but it seems all the empathy is being directed at how to help these "poor misunderstood folk" than doing anything to help their growing list of victims or prevent future incidents in any way for what seems to be the risk of hurting an incels feelings?
The cure can come later , atm my focus is on taking away their power to prevent future bullshit from them.
This isn't mutually exclusive. This isn't any different than authorities figuring out how criminals work or creating preventive measures. Entire side industries are creating doing this type of work, RE: serial killers. Addressing incels feelings are a major reason why they go down that path to begin, take that away and we get less incels and more men being safer around women. A lot of the discussion has been in prevention, which entails doing exactly this so vulnerable people don't fall down that rabbit hole to begin with. Simply attacking them will only do so much (though deplatforming will do wonders to cut off recruitment and radicalisation) and will make them double down because they'll see it as a confirmation of their beliefs.
The problem is it feel a mutually exclusive atm in favor of incels. All this talk and worrying about hurting the feelings of one side while the other side is being actually murdered.
But that's not what's happening, and it's not merely "worrying about the feelings of one's side" it's making sure the incels get less people and that requires reaching out and preventing vulnerable people from being radicalised into murderers. That requires shutting down the movement and that requires reaching people before they're sucked into the intel mindset to exhaust their recruitment so less people are harmed. Like it or not, incels were human before they went down that path - like any other criminals, keeping them on that human path is vital to stop this from reoccurring. This isn't either/or. Like I said before, authorities do this with other criminal groups, are you against that, too?
Nor is anyone stopping you from talking about the victims and what they want. If you think there is ground that front we haven't covered I'd like to hear what you think society should do to help them further.
What you just said should really be /thread. Because if its one thing this past year has shown is that deplatforming works. The best thing stop the incel community from recruiting new members is throwing them off easy platforms that reach a wide audience. Honestly I don't think Incel would have gotten so big in the first place if not for Reddit.
I think alt-right Youtube celebrities did a lot more to legitimize the incel movement than Reddit did, because it gives them access to faux intellectuals.
I'm thinking of a guy that rhymes with schmordan schmeterson..
Funny thing is, he became person-non-grata on right wing Internet after he said:
If confirmed Kavanaugh should step down.
Which had the predictable reaction of "is our win, fuck you" and turned his followers into former followers (seriously that tweet had like 10k replies).
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Incels aren't the only ones who feel lonely, or isolated, or any of those negative things. They are one possible endpoint of a branching path that begins with "I cannot figure out why I am not attracting people, and I am sad." The suggestion, as far as I see, is having empathy for that state. At that point, people aren't abusers, or murderers, they're lonely sad teenage and young twenties boys. Their plight is sad, and painful, and real (whether or not it's more or less important, sad, or painful than any other plight). Perhaps having empathy for that will result in the collateral damage of having empathy for extremists, but if "collateral damage" is being aware of the fact that life sucks even for bad people, I'm not sure it's worth avoiding. Obviously we should deplatform extremists, shun mass killers and rape apologetics and sex worker harrassment. But I think a lot of what I sometimes see said (e.g., white men don't really have real problems) actively leads to the isolation that makes extremism appealing.
At what point does this endless circle if trying to get thru to incels become abuser coddling.
Ya there's empathy to be had there, but it seems all the empathy is being directed at how to help these "poor misunderstood folk" than doing anything to help their growing list of victims or prevent future incidents in any way for what seems to be the risk of hurting an incels feelings?
The cure can come later , atm my focus is on taking away their power to prevent future bullshit from them.
This isn't mutually exclusive. This isn't any different than authorities figuring out how criminals work or creating preventive measures. Entire side industries are creating doing this type of work, RE: serial killers. Addressing incels feelings are a major reason why they go down that path to begin, take that away and we get less incels and more men being safer around women. A lot of the discussion has been in prevention, which entails doing exactly this so vulnerable people don't fall down that rabbit hole to begin with. Simply attacking them will only do so much (though deplatforming will do wonders to cut off recruitment and radicalisation) and will make them double down because they'll see it as a confirmation of their beliefs.
The problem is it feel a mutually exclusive atm in favor of incels. All this talk and worrying about hurting the feelings of one side while the other side is being actually murdered.
So what, we should all become Batman and track down the dastardly incels before they strike?
Give every women a gun?
Doxx and harass every incel until they off themselves??
The reasons we're being worried about 'hurting their feelings' isn't because we care about incels more than their victims, it's because we're taking about how to actually heal the fucked up shit in our society and reach out to people who are vulnerable to the cult. Being mean to incels doesn't do anything to stop incels from victimising new people.
No, nobody is required to take the path of trying to empathize and reach out. If you want to put your effort into supporting, like, domestic violence shelters instead then great, please do that.
What bugs be is that the idea that they're all hopeless is also part of the toxic masculinity that put them where they are in the first place. They don't confirm to a standard idea of a man's role (confident, successful, socially skilled) so not only is it wrong for them to seek help they should be shunned.
I get the frustration of things where it's like "women are being victimised, now let's all talk about men!" but IMO an important part of being a feminist as a man is working to improve male culture, which you have to do by taking about how it's fucked and what you can go to support changes in it. Like, for the world to be more equitable for women men need to be less shit and men need to be the ones working on that change.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Incels aren't the only ones who feel lonely, or isolated, or any of those negative things. They are one possible endpoint of a branching path that begins with "I cannot figure out why I am not attracting people, and I am sad." The suggestion, as far as I see, is having empathy for that state. At that point, people aren't abusers, or murderers, they're lonely sad teenage and young twenties boys. Their plight is sad, and painful, and real (whether or not it's more or less important, sad, or painful than any other plight). Perhaps having empathy for that will result in the collateral damage of having empathy for extremists, but if "collateral damage" is being aware of the fact that life sucks even for bad people, I'm not sure it's worth avoiding. Obviously we should deplatform extremists, shun mass killers and rape apologetics and sex worker harrassment. But I think a lot of what I sometimes see said (e.g., white men don't really have real problems) actively leads to the isolation that makes extremism appealing.
Yes, but what you're saying is we should have empathy for people who are lonely, possibly struggling with depression or other mental illnesses, and have problems communicating or holding relationships.
Which I agree with, and I absolutely do have empathy for those people. I have had my periods where I've gone through the same thing, I'm even semi in one of those phases now where I'm finding it difficult to communicate but I recognize I'm working through these problems.
Those people aren't full blown incels, inasmuch as I've seen. I was watching a video where the singer from the band got put in jail for 6 years for contracting out a hitman to kill his estranged wife. When people were debating about him serving his time etc, one guy interjected with "He shouldn't have to apologize for his deeds, he was just taking care of business."
That right there is an incel, to me anyway. Maybe we need some kind of terminology agreement so we can verify we're talking about the same people, but I have a real hard time being empathetic to someone who thinks killing women is all in a days work.
At what point does this endless circle if trying to get thru to incels become abuser coddling.
Ya there's empathy to be had there, but it seems all the empathy is being directed at how to help these "poor misunderstood folk" than doing anything to help their growing list of victims or prevent future incidents in any way for what seems to be the risk of hurting an incels feelings?
The cure can come later , atm my focus is on taking away their power to prevent future bullshit from them.
This isn't mutually exclusive. This isn't any different than authorities figuring out how criminals work or creating preventive measures. Entire side industries are creating doing this type of work, RE: serial killers. Addressing incels feelings are a major reason why they go down that path to begin, take that away and we get less incels and more men being safer around women. A lot of the discussion has been in prevention, which entails doing exactly this so vulnerable people don't fall down that rabbit hole to begin with. Simply attacking them will only do so much (though deplatforming will do wonders to cut off recruitment and radicalisation) and will make them double down because they'll see it as a confirmation of their beliefs.
The problem is it feel a mutually exclusive atm in favor of incels. All this talk and worrying about hurting the feelings of one side while the other side is being actually murdered.
They're not wrong when they say suicide is an issue. After a quick wiki'ing Women are a 1/4th of murder victims, whilst men make up 2/3rds to 3/4s of suicides in the US.
Total numbers are 11,535 male deaths via homicide (2013) in the US, 34,727 suicides (2006). Women were 3,292 deaths by homicide (2013) and 10,238 suicides (2006).
I think men's mental health is a valid issue to talk about when 10x more men kill themselves than kill women (not that I'm saying that these are directly connected or that stopping murders isn't worthwhile). There's some easy wins you can get with monitoring Incel communities to recognise when an attack might happen - but we have to recognise that it's very, very rare. The threat is from the background radiation these communities generate, people generally aren't feminist due to some secret genocide of women, it's because there's still so many entirely unnecessary and often invisible obstacles in every day life that come from lots of tiny little pieces of misogyny acting via hundreds of different people.
These aren't happy and well people.
If you can start to fix that whilst also saving people, seems worth a try to me? But the strategy would be to deplatform/marginalise red pill/alt right philosophy sites, and attempt to save/recruit/educate most of the Incel types (can't save all of them, especially not the cult leaders) given they are also victims of toxic masculinity. Save people, starve the cults is a good thing in itself, let alone how much easier it'd make everything else.
I almost look at it like a counterterrorism operation. You can bomb the cities, scour the hills, put boots on the ground and occupy.... but you’re solving nothing long term, and are possibly making things worse. In the end you have to fix the root cause or you’re committing to a war without end.
I don’t think I’m too far off in positing that this is the “empathy” side of the argument. Scorched earth does not work has never worked short of actual extinction and genocide. Better to understand where the problem comes from, why people are vulnerable to these ideologies. Otherwise you’re basically just the USA and the War on Terror in a social aspect.
Is it harder? Is it an exhausting prospect? Yes. This is because the best solutions are rarely easy. Brushing the dirt under the carpet is easy, but hardly a real solution.
Its funny how mentioning doing more to protect their victims and targets in anyway becomes ramped up to scorched earth.
I have said a cure is needed, I am also saying that maybe something more can be done in the short term for their targets , at the very least even half the attention given to reforming incels.
But asking for some discussion on that side of things and what can be done, gets shut down as scorching the earth.
And you wonder why it's a frustrating conversation?
Its funny how mentioning doing more to protect their victims and targets in anyway becomes ramped up to scorched earth.
I have said a cure is needed, I am also saying that maybe something more can be done in the short term for their targets , at the very least even half the attention given to reforming incels.
But asking for some discussion on that side of things and what can be done, gets shut down as scorching the earth.
And you wonder why it's a frustrating conversation?
I don’t mean to do that. I’m referring to those questioning why empathy is deserved/needed, questioning why we should do anything but root out and destroy. Some are on that frame of mind, others not. That’s all I’m referring to.
Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
Another very active Incel subreddit is up and running because Reddit does nothing about communities ban evading. Case in point, when Reddit nuked the Q Anon subreddit the community simply fired up a new one and try to do a better job of keeping their psychotic members from posting about wanting to murder people to avoid getting banned again. I reported the new one and Reddit did jack shit. Same thing with the Incel subreddit. The new one is technically quarantined but it's still accessible, active, and currently heavily participating in the campaign against female sex workers.
Tbh, I've been wondering how effective a campaign against Reddit and Steve Hoffman to get their advertising revenue pulled for actively enabling white supremacists, incels, etc. would work because it's probably the only thing that would get them to change their tune.
How do you prove that this new subreddit is equivalent to the old one? You can push back on what it takes to get shutdown but an Incel subreddit that stays just under the line will almost certainly always exist.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
Another very active Incel subreddit is up and running because Reddit does nothing about communities ban evading. Case in point, when Reddit nuked the Q Anon subreddit the community simply fired up a new one and try to do a better job of keeping their psychotic members from posting about wanting to murder people to avoid getting banned again. I reported the new one and Reddit did jack shit. Same thing with the Incel subreddit. The new one is technically quarantined but it's still accessible, active, and currently heavily participating in the campaign against female sex workers.
Tbh, I've been wondering how effective a campaign against Reddit and Steve Hoffman to get their advertising revenue pulled for actively enabling white supremacists, incels, etc. would work because it's probably the only thing that would get them to change their tune.
How do you prove that this new subreddit is equivalent to the old one? You can push back on what it takes to get shutdown but an Incel subreddit that stays just under the line will almost certainly always exist.
You can certainly hunt them down and break up the subreddits. But where this will end is where it always ends: people learn. They create terminology. They hide meaning and intent in terms and inside language. Dog whistles, if you will.
This is how I see most fringe groups do it. Fringe they may be but they do endure.
Its funny how mentioning doing more to protect their victims and targets in anyway becomes ramped up to scorched earth.
I have said a cure is needed, I am also saying that maybe something more can be done in the short term for their targets , at the very least even half the attention given to reforming incels.
But asking for some discussion on that side of things and what can be done, gets shut down as scorching the earth.
And you wonder why it's a frustrating conversation?
So what do you propose?
Nobody's taking about that because I think we all pretty much agree.
Shut down platforms where they gather and feed off of each other? Yes ok.
Increased gun control, possibly looking for mental illness or histories of DV? Yes also good.
Like, instead of just saying "you should be taking about this other thing" just start talking about that other thing! Otherwise we're just fighting over what we think the other person is implying. Like, the implication I got from your post was "you all are ignoring women and just as bad as the incels".
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Its funny how mentioning doing more to protect their victims and targets in anyway becomes ramped up to scorched earth.
I have said a cure is needed, I am also saying that maybe something more can be done in the short term for their targets , at the very least even half the attention given to reforming incels.
But asking for some discussion on that side of things and what can be done, gets shut down as scorching the earth.
And you wonder why it's a frustrating conversation?
To be fair, your first comment was incredibly black and white, implying that the discussion about helping people stop being incels was coddling abusers (the phrase poor misunderstood folk was in quotes which reads like you don't care about helping them stop becoming incels), that the victims should get more help and prevention (which was exactly what the discussion in the past few pages was about but it was centred on the victims side which was very vague in what you want the conversation to go) simply because the solutions involved meant acknowledging their hurt feelings.
I explained how the methods we were using were instrumental in foiling other criminals, as well as asked for clearer details on what things you thought were not explored on behalf of helping the victims and both went unanswered.
It's also difficult to know what you mean by "later." Two days, two weeks, two years - it was never explained what length was necessary and it could be interpreted as a means to shut down the conversation entirely since no details were expressed.
We have the same goals here, which is why the confrontational aspect is throwing people off.
At what point does this endless circle if trying to get thru to incels become abuser coddling.
Ya there's empathy to be had there, but it seems all the empathy is being directed at how to help these "poor misunderstood folk" than doing anything to help their growing list of victims or prevent future incidents in any way for what seems to be the risk of hurting an incels feelings?
The cure can come later , atm my focus is on taking away their power to prevent future bullshit from them.
Its funny how mentioning doing more to protect their victims and targets in anyway becomes ramped up to scorched earth.
I have said a cure is needed, I am also saying that maybe something more can be done in the short term for their targets , at the very least even half the attention given to reforming incels.
But asking for some discussion on that side of things and what can be done, gets shut down as scorching the earth.
And you wonder why it's a frustrating conversation?
I don’t mean to do that. I’m referring to those questioning why empathy is deserved/needed, questioning why we should do anything but root out and destroy. Some are on that frame of mind, others not. That’s all I’m referring to.
I wasn't meaning to single you out, you just had a fitting term. Society in general is who I am speaking about, there's just a real imbalance in the attention given to help the incels and the help given to their targets.
Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
Another very active Incel subreddit is up and running because Reddit does nothing about communities ban evading. Case in point, when Reddit nuked the Q Anon subreddit the community simply fired up a new one and try to do a better job of keeping their psychotic members from posting about wanting to murder people to avoid getting banned again. I reported the new one and Reddit did jack shit. Same thing with the Incel subreddit. The new one is technically quarantined but it's still accessible, active, and currently heavily participating in the campaign against female sex workers.
Tbh, I've been wondering how effective a campaign against Reddit and Steve Hoffman to get their advertising revenue pulled for actively enabling white supremacists, incels, etc. would work because it's probably the only thing that would get them to change their tune.
How do you prove that this new subreddit is equivalent to the old one? You can push back on what it takes to get shutdown but an Incel subreddit that stays just under the line will almost certainly always exist.
You can certainly hunt them down and break up the subreddits. But where this will end is where it always ends: people learn. They create terminology. They hide meaning and intent in terms and inside language. Dog whistles, if you will.
This is how I see most fringe groups do it. Fringe they may be but they do endure.
Fringe is better than mainstream, and extremist groups should definitely be pushed off of mainstream platforms where recruitment is easy.
If "scorched earth" means shutting down forums and monitoring dangerous extremists, then I agree that it won't solve the problem completely but I'm also a pessimist and don't think the problem of sexist violence can ever be 100% "solved" except maybe far in the future when we're all genderless cyborgs, it can only be somewhat contained. To continue the counterterrorism metaphor, can we ever really end all terrorism forever? I don't think so, but ISIS had 99% of its territory taken back by military force, not that this means the Islamic State and their ideology and violence are gone by any means, but it's still a victory.
Society should offer young men better options than ISIS and inceldom, I don't dispute that at all and support efforts to make culture less toxic, but that's a much more amorphous problem and our approach needs to be multi pronged. Yes support better media, yes advocate for better mental health care, yes resist toxic masculinity in your personal life, but also let's take away their territory.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
For someone like Alex Jones I say deplatforming is good. For something like a forum where plots of murder are regularly openly discussed, I say keep 'em open but localized (ie no reddit, twitter, or facebook but they can run their own forum off in a dark corner) so that the FBI can monitor as needed.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
Another very active Incel subreddit is up and running because Reddit does nothing about communities ban evading. Case in point, when Reddit nuked the Q Anon subreddit the community simply fired up a new one and try to do a better job of keeping their psychotic members from posting about wanting to murder people to avoid getting banned again. I reported the new one and Reddit did jack shit. Same thing with the Incel subreddit. The new one is technically quarantined but it's still accessible, active, and currently heavily participating in the campaign against female sex workers.
Tbh, I've been wondering how effective a campaign against Reddit and Steve Hoffman to get their advertising revenue pulled for actively enabling white supremacists, incels, etc. would work because it's probably the only thing that would get them to change their tune.
How do you prove that this new subreddit is equivalent to the old one? You can push back on what it takes to get shutdown but an Incel subreddit that stays just under the line will almost certainly always exist.
You can certainly hunt them down and break up the subreddits. But where this will end is where it always ends: people learn. They create terminology. They hide meaning and intent in terms and inside language. Dog whistles, if you will.
This is how I see most fringe groups do it. Fringe they may be but they do endure.
Fringe is better than mainstream, and extremist groups should definitely be pushed off of mainstream platforms where recruitment is easy.
If "scorched earth" means shutting down forums and monitoring dangerous extremists, then I agree that it won't solve the problem completely but I'm also a pessimist and don't think the problem of sexist violence can ever be 100% "solved" except maybe far in the future when we're all genderless cyborgs, it can only be somewhat contained. To continue the counterterrorism metaphor, can we ever really end all terrorism forever? I don't think so, but ISIS had 99% of its territory taken back by military force, not that this means the Islamic State and their ideology and violence are gone by any means, but it's still a victory.
Society should offer young men better options than ISIS and inceldom, I don't dispute that at all and support efforts to make culture less toxic, but that's a much more amorphous problem and our approach needs to be multi pronged. Yes support better media, yes advocate for better mental health care, yes resist toxic masculinity in your personal life, but also let's take away their territory.
If turning Facebook and Instragram off got rid of incels, could we do it? What if we had to turn off the internet?
Its funny how mentioning doing more to protect their victims and targets in anyway becomes ramped up to scorched earth.
I have said a cure is needed, I am also saying that maybe something more can be done in the short term for their targets , at the very least even half the attention given to reforming incels.
But asking for some discussion on that side of things and what can be done, gets shut down as scorching the earth.
And you wonder why it's a frustrating conversation?
So what do you propose?
Nobody's taking about that because I think we all pretty much agree.
Shut down platforms where they gather and feed off of each other? Yes ok.
Increased gun control, possibly looking for mental illness or histories of DV? Yes also good.
Like, instead of just saying "you should be taking about this other thing" just start talking about that other thing! Otherwise we're just fighting over what we think the other person is implying. Like, the implication I got from your post was "you all are ignoring women and just as bad as the incels".
This is where the misunderstanding is im not asking "let's talk about protecting victims" in an accusatory way.
Im asking it in a begging tears in eyes what can we do can we discuss it , does anyone have a suggestion type way . because all answers so far are just to try and stop them in a generation or two and shrug and hope it works and hope they aren't too upset by it.
How about making police take them as a more serious threat so the next time an incel announces hes gonna murder a bunch of people then murders a bunch of people the response isn't " we couldn't have seen this coming what could make such a good white boy suddenly snap."
How about any conversation asking what can be done not being instantly shut down with "you just don't have empathy" or " well if you have no answers why should anyone?"
Edit: I think i am too close to this and gonna back out of thread for a bit. Prefacing this with a I don't mean anyone here but more in dealings in RL.
But it's a rough topic when people like me and the people I love are being beaten , raped and murdered by these monsters and the majority reply seems to be "how dare you call the people daily advocating for your death monsters"
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
edited November 2018
I mean one of the first things I suggested in this thread was that the FBI NEEDS TO TAKE THIS SHIT MORE SERIOUSLY, and several other people have mentioned the need for Law Enforcement to do more, so please stop acting as though you're the lone voice in the desert.
Adding to this, the Crash Override network was created as a means to help online victims of harassment and abuse, and I'm sad they don't take charitable donations anymore. Does anyone know of a similar charity or advocacy group? Certainly we have the ACLU for hate groups specifically, but I feel like the need for groups surrounding the unique threats of the digital world and the willingness to advocate to law enforcement the importance of paying attention to these spaces is direly needed.
What you just said should really be /thread. Because if its one thing this past year has shown is that deplatforming works. The best thing stop the incel community from recruiting new members is throwing them off easy platforms that reach a wide audience. Honestly I don't think Incel would have gotten so big in the first place if not for Reddit.
I think alt-right Youtube celebrities did a lot more to legitimize the incel movement than Reddit did, because it gives them access to faux intellectuals.
I'm thinking of a guy that rhymes with schmordan schmeterson..
Funny thing is, he became person-non-grata on right wing Internet after he said:
If confirmed Kavanaugh should step down.
Which had the predictable reaction of "is our win, fuck you" and turned his followers into former followers (seriously that tweet had like 10k replies).
To give Peterson the appropriate amount of credit, his explanation for his statement was 5D chess bullshit to own the libs by proving they're weaponizing sexual assault allegations. The TL;DR of Peterson's argument was if Kavanaugh withdrew before confirmation, he'd show allegations worked; if he kept the position, he'd be a lightning rod for the left. If he got confirmed and resigned, then whoever else was nominated would either be confirmed with no issues or, if accused, would magically prove both accusations were political hit jobs (because two rapists can't exist? Peterson is dumb).
To link this back to the topic at hand, it does show some fundamental problems with how to address large portions of the manosphere, even if they are not directly incels. There is a fundamental assumption even amongst their "intellectuals" that sexual assault and violence against women are not a problem, to the point an ostensibly apolitical cultural commentator is kind of tacitly advocating nominating rapists until people are convinced that, seriously, the left must be lying about some of them being rapists.
This makes it very difficult to convince people on the right of the dangers of incel ideology, because even if they're not so far gone as to advocate legalizing rape or whatever, they don't view incels as dangerous because they think its more likely they'll be falsely accused of assailt than actually commit assault.
I ate an engineer
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I will say that this thread motivated me to step into the Braincels subreddit again to try to debate and convince instead of blame and... yeah it's a pretty soul crushing job. I'm not sure I'm fit for that sort of fight anymore, it's always deeply painful. I recommend anyone here who's saying that empathy is the only way forward should go try it for a bit, earnestly and with empathy in your heart; it's not easy, but for the guys in this thread it might be less personal.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I will say that this thread motivated me to step into the Braincels subreddit again to try to debate and convince instead of blame and... yeah it's a pretty soul crushing job. I'm not sure I'm fit for that sort of fight anymore, it's always deeply painful. I recommend anyone here who's saying that empathy is the only way forward should go try it for a bit, earnestly and with empathy in your heart; it's not easy, but for the guys in this thread it might be less personal.
I debate with people of opposite opinions all the time on the R/UKpol subreddit (most likely about Brexit).
Don't think I could debate an incel
With thread titles like "I officially hate women now", I don't think you can debate with any of them in good faith
Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
Another very active Incel subreddit is up and running because Reddit does nothing about communities ban evading. Case in point, when Reddit nuked the Q Anon subreddit the community simply fired up a new one and try to do a better job of keeping their psychotic members from posting about wanting to murder people to avoid getting banned again. I reported the new one and Reddit did jack shit. Same thing with the Incel subreddit. The new one is technically quarantined but it's still accessible, active, and currently heavily participating in the campaign against female sex workers.
Tbh, I've been wondering how effective a campaign against Reddit and Steve Hoffman to get their advertising revenue pulled for actively enabling white supremacists, incels, etc. would work because it's probably the only thing that would get them to change their tune.
AFAIK, one of the current reddit ceos is quoted as wanting to be so rich he won't be a slave once the apocalypse comes, but on the 'other side'
Its funny how mentioning doing more to protect their victims and targets in anyway becomes ramped up to scorched earth.
I have said a cure is needed, I am also saying that maybe something more can be done in the short term for their targets , at the very least even half the attention given to reforming incels.
But asking for some discussion on that side of things and what can be done, gets shut down as scorching the earth.
And you wonder why it's a frustrating conversation?
So what do you propose?
Nobody's taking about that because I think we all pretty much agree.
Shut down platforms where they gather and feed off of each other? Yes ok.
Increased gun control, possibly looking for mental illness or histories of DV? Yes also good.
Like, instead of just saying "you should be taking about this other thing" just start talking about that other thing! Otherwise we're just fighting over what we think the other person is implying. Like, the implication I got from your post was "you all are ignoring women and just as bad as the incels".
On the contrary, reading the thread the folks saying that we don't owe incels endless empathy are the only people in here offering solutions. Deplatforming, gun control, proper screening, and mental health resources available to incels when they actually choose to avail themselves of it.
Others are just saying "we need to better understand these people" - and I'm not really sure exactly what that means. Don't we already understand pretty clearly where these people are coming from? It's being discussed ad nauseum in this thread. Honestly, the "we need to better understand and help these people" is starting to read like an empty academic stalling mechanism. I could be wrong and I'm willing to cop to that if someone can start articulating what better understanding means with some real practical means of executing on that.
I mean one of the first things I suggested in this thread was that the FBI NEEDS TO TAKE THIS SHIT MORE SERIOUSLY, and several other people have mentioned the need for Law Enforcement to do more, so please stop acting as though you're the lone voice in the desert.
Adding to this, the Crash Override network was created as a means to help online victims of harassment and abuse, and I'm sad they don't take charitable donations anymore. Does anyone know of a similar charity or advocacy group? Certainly we have the ACLU for hate groups specifically, but I feel like the need for groups surrounding the unique threats of the digital world and the willingness to advocate to law enforcement the importance of paying attention to these spaces is direly needed.
Computer savvy people with internet security skills don't have a culturally prestigious public sector job to lure them away from the private sector. Seems like trawling through an online community checking for adolescent threats is scut work
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It seems to me that misogyny is a necessary component of an incel, and always harmful.
Like other forms of other-hatred, it's difficult to combat, and looking into causes can veer close to justification. I'll explicitly attempt to avoid that.
We've seen lots of "if I had seen this when I was younger" stories, and stories from people who are now lonely and depressed but recognize that inceldom is poison.
Do we think that the element of misogyny is an explanation of the different paths these people took than incels did?
Do we have reason to think that misogyny tends to be already present in pre-incels, to a greater degree than people who come back from the brink?
Do we think it's at all common for incels to develop their misogyny primarily after being drawn in to these online groups, through whatever mechanism?
Do the answers to these questions suggest any line of action, secondary to deplatforming since we mostly seem to agree that this should be step 1?
I think misogyny develops with very little cultural influence as a result of externalization of platonic and romantic shortcomings. Imagine being annoyed on Valentine's day and by public displays of affection, then multiply that by 1000% over several years, then fermenting that in isolation until you give up all semblance of moral standard.
I know that people will functionally become incels whether or not they encounter this community. I guarantee that this will happen.
Paladin on
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I mean one of the first things I suggested in this thread was that the FBI NEEDS TO TAKE THIS SHIT MORE SERIOUSLY, and several other people have mentioned the need for Law Enforcement to do more, so please stop acting as though you're the lone voice in the desert.
Adding to this, the Crash Override network was created as a means to help online victims of harassment and abuse, and I'm sad they don't take charitable donations anymore. Does anyone know of a similar charity or advocacy group? Certainly we have the ACLU for hate groups specifically, but I feel like the need for groups surrounding the unique threats of the digital world and the willingness to advocate to law enforcement the importance of paying attention to these spaces is direly needed.
Its funny how mentioning doing more to protect their victims and targets in anyway becomes ramped up to scorched earth.
I have said a cure is needed, I am also saying that maybe something more can be done in the short term for their targets , at the very least even half the attention given to reforming incels.
But asking for some discussion on that side of things and what can be done, gets shut down as scorching the earth.
And you wonder why it's a frustrating conversation?
So what do you propose?
Nobody's taking about that because I think we all pretty much agree.
Shut down platforms where they gather and feed off of each other? Yes ok.
Increased gun control, possibly looking for mental illness or histories of DV? Yes also good.
Like, instead of just saying "you should be taking about this other thing" just start talking about that other thing! Otherwise we're just fighting over what we think the other person is implying. Like, the implication I got from your post was "you all are ignoring women and just as bad as the incels".
On the contrary, reading the thread the folks saying that we don't owe incels endless empathy are the only people in here offering solutions. Deplatforming, gun control, proper screening, and mental health resources available to incels when they actually choose to avail themselves of it.
Others are just saying "we need to better understand these people" - and I'm not really sure exactly what that means. Don't we already understand pretty clearly where these people are coming from? It's being discussed ad nauseum in this thread. Honestly, the "we need to better understand and help these people" is starting to read like an empty academic stalling mechanism. I could be wrong and I'm willing to cop to that if someone can start articulating what better understanding means with some real practical means of executing on that.
I agree that we need to do all the bolded.
I just also think we should focus on keeping people from getting to the point that they are vulnerable to these ideologies, or even mental illness in general, and that therapy is just a band-aid on a dysfunctional culture.
We already do that. Mental health resources are wide and varied and readily available for most people (though we can certainly always do more).
Therapy is not a bandaid - have you taken therapy? It's immensely helpful and everybody should do it if they're able.
There's no special panacea available for people that are pre-incel. They are just depressed people and can be treated like any depressed person. Them making the decision to join a hate group doesn't make their pain any more special than anybody else's. It just shows that they made the decision to go down a dark path and embrace a culture that's hurtful to everybody.
I think misogyny develops with very little cultural influence as a result of externalization of platonic and romantic shortcomings. Imagine being annoyed on Valentine's day and by public displays of affection, then multiply that by 1000% over several years, then fermenting that in isolation until you give up all semblance of moral standard.
I know that people will functionally become incels whether or not they encounter this community. I guarantee that this will happen.
They might, but it's so much easier getting out when they're not in the crab bucket, getting pulled down every time they might make a move out
It seems to me that misogyny is a necessary component of an incel, and always harmful.
Like other forms of other-hatred, it's difficult to combat, and looking into causes can veer close to justification. I'll explicitly attempt to avoid that.
We've seen lots of "if I had seen this when I was younger" stories, and stories from people who are now lonely and depressed but recognize that inceldom is poison.
Do we think that the element of misogyny is an explanation of the different paths these people took than incels did?
Do we have reason to think that misogyny tends to be already present in pre-incels, to a greater degree than people who come back from the brink?
Do we think it's at all common for incels to develop their misogyny primarily after being drawn in to these online groups, through whatever mechanism?
Do the answers to these questions suggest any line of action, secondary to deplatforming since we mostly seem to agree that this should be step 1?
I think both can happen. Also I think the most reachable ones are the latter where they are only lured in by sense of community and not out of shared hate.
Its funny how mentioning doing more to protect their victims and targets in anyway becomes ramped up to scorched earth.
I have said a cure is needed, I am also saying that maybe something more can be done in the short term for their targets , at the very least even half the attention given to reforming incels.
But asking for some discussion on that side of things and what can be done, gets shut down as scorching the earth.
And you wonder why it's a frustrating conversation?
So what do you propose?
Nobody's taking about that because I think we all pretty much agree.
Shut down platforms where they gather and feed off of each other? Yes ok.
Increased gun control, possibly looking for mental illness or histories of DV? Yes also good.
Like, instead of just saying "you should be taking about this other thing" just start talking about that other thing! Otherwise we're just fighting over what we think the other person is implying. Like, the implication I got from your post was "you all are ignoring women and just as bad as the incels".
On the contrary, reading the thread the folks saying that we don't owe incels endless empathy are the only people in here offering solutions. Deplatforming, gun control, proper screening, and mental health resources available to incels when they actually choose to avail themselves of it.
Others are just saying "we need to better understand these people" - and I'm not really sure exactly what that means. Don't we already understand pretty clearly where these people are coming from? It's being discussed ad nauseum in this thread. Honestly, the "we need to better understand and help these people" is starting to read like an empty academic stalling mechanism. I could be wrong and I'm willing to cop to that if someone can start articulating what better understanding means with some real practical means of executing on that.
I agree that we need to do all the bolded.
I just also think we should focus on keeping people from getting to the point that they are vulnerable to these ideologies and that therapy is just a band-aid on a dysfunctional culture.
I think we are already in that direction, I am a lot more aware of the problems of toxic masculinity than my father was, and young men becoming adults now are better equipped than me. It doesnt hurt to give an extra push by helping whatever organization you simpathise with, be it going to feminist marches, promoting inclusive language, donating to the organizations that were mentioned early that focus on deconstructing toxic masculinity head on.
In the meantime, everytime an Incel community pops up, we should shoot it down by any legal means necesary. Scorn, shame and mockery are totally okay in my view, discrimination is absolutely okay. Anything to keep them from spouting their drivel in any public forum. Treat the individuals after the group has been burned to the ground.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
I think misogyny develops with very little cultural influence as a result of externalization of platonic and romantic shortcomings. Imagine being annoyed on Valentine's day and by public displays of affection, then multiply that by 1000% over several years, then fermenting that in isolation until you give up all semblance of moral standard.
I know that people will functionally become incels whether or not they encounter this community. I guarantee that this will happen.
They might, but it's so much easier getting out when they're not in the crab bucket, getting pulled down every time they might make a move out
The crab bucket is social isolation; the hate community is a boiling pot. These people tend to disappear when they're not talking, sometimes permanently
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Posts
Well, removing the group "Incel" from the news is a band aid. That's just the current iteration. The problem is toxic masculinity and regressive opposition to feminism. "Incel" violence is just...the same old violence against women. It's the same fight as people working against domestic violence. It's the same fight as people trying to make rape and sexual assault something that can be more reliably prosecuted. It's all the same fight.
So deplatforming Incels works to undermine the cult, but the problem that the cult grew around? It goes way deeper than that. That requires the societal changes we've been debating in this thread. You can't deplatform domestic violence. You can't deplatform police trying to convince women not to report a rape. There's systemic problems that allows these things to happen.
I think deplatforming is probably enough, assuming you were also still planning on tackling other more well known feminist issues. Just you need to not just focus on the Incels but the rest of the red-pill ecosystem that makes them. Otherwise you're just brushing the issue under the rug, some will make it out, some will just kill themselves but a lot would also just appear as increased crime/disease rates and a political will to dis-empower women, or at least not be too worried when it happens - this isn't new, this is just how you end up with a hierarchical Patriarchy.
What's new is that they are gathering in one place, communicating and segregating themselves more than you'd expect. It's an opportunity to act, because to not act or to just suppress just takes us back to the days when "Men were Men" and all that entails. These are people who are the most striking examples of the fallout from toxic masculinity and how it can make apparent 'winners' into 'losers' regardless of their demographic backgrounds.
Seems like these are the guys you need to be able to change to make the change.
I mean... r/Braincels still exists, and even though it's been quarantined by Reddit (not in 2017, but this year - Braincels was allowed to flourish through most of 2018) all you need it someone to give you the url name and they can find it.
The problem is it feel a mutually exclusive atm in favor of incels. All this talk and worrying about hurting the feelings of one side while the other side is being actually murdered.
Another very active Incel subreddit is up and running because Reddit does nothing about communities ban evading. Case in point, when Reddit nuked the Q Anon subreddit the community simply fired up a new one and try to do a better job of keeping their psychotic members from posting about wanting to murder people to avoid getting banned again. I reported the new one and Reddit did jack shit. Same thing with the Incel subreddit. The new one is technically quarantined but it's still accessible, active, and currently heavily participating in the campaign against female sex workers.
Tbh, I've been wondering how effective a campaign against Reddit and Steve Hoffman to get their advertising revenue pulled for actively enabling white supremacists, incels, etc. would work because it's probably the only thing that would get them to change their tune.
But that's not what's happening, and it's not merely "worrying about the feelings of one's side" it's making sure the incels get less people and that requires reaching out and preventing vulnerable people from being radicalised into murderers. That requires shutting down the movement and that requires reaching people before they're sucked into the intel mindset to exhaust their recruitment so less people are harmed. Like it or not, incels were human before they went down that path - like any other criminals, keeping them on that human path is vital to stop this from reoccurring. This isn't either/or. Like I said before, authorities do this with other criminal groups, are you against that, too?
Nor is anyone stopping you from talking about the victims and what they want. If you think there is ground that front we haven't covered I'd like to hear what you think society should do to help them further.
Funny thing is, he became person-non-grata on right wing Internet after he said:
Which had the predictable reaction of "is our win, fuck you" and turned his followers into former followers (seriously that tweet had like 10k replies).
So what, we should all become Batman and track down the dastardly incels before they strike?
Give every women a gun?
Doxx and harass every incel until they off themselves??
The reasons we're being worried about 'hurting their feelings' isn't because we care about incels more than their victims, it's because we're taking about how to actually heal the fucked up shit in our society and reach out to people who are vulnerable to the cult. Being mean to incels doesn't do anything to stop incels from victimising new people.
No, nobody is required to take the path of trying to empathize and reach out. If you want to put your effort into supporting, like, domestic violence shelters instead then great, please do that.
What bugs be is that the idea that they're all hopeless is also part of the toxic masculinity that put them where they are in the first place. They don't confirm to a standard idea of a man's role (confident, successful, socially skilled) so not only is it wrong for them to seek help they should be shunned.
I get the frustration of things where it's like "women are being victimised, now let's all talk about men!" but IMO an important part of being a feminist as a man is working to improve male culture, which you have to do by taking about how it's fucked and what you can go to support changes in it. Like, for the world to be more equitable for women men need to be less shit and men need to be the ones working on that change.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Yes, but what you're saying is we should have empathy for people who are lonely, possibly struggling with depression or other mental illnesses, and have problems communicating or holding relationships.
Which I agree with, and I absolutely do have empathy for those people. I have had my periods where I've gone through the same thing, I'm even semi in one of those phases now where I'm finding it difficult to communicate but I recognize I'm working through these problems.
Those people aren't full blown incels, inasmuch as I've seen. I was watching a video where the singer from the band got put in jail for 6 years for contracting out a hitman to kill his estranged wife. When people were debating about him serving his time etc, one guy interjected with "He shouldn't have to apologize for his deeds, he was just taking care of business."
That right there is an incel, to me anyway. Maybe we need some kind of terminology agreement so we can verify we're talking about the same people, but I have a real hard time being empathetic to someone who thinks killing women is all in a days work.
They're not wrong when they say suicide is an issue. After a quick wiki'ing Women are a 1/4th of murder victims, whilst men make up 2/3rds to 3/4s of suicides in the US.
Total numbers are 11,535 male deaths via homicide (2013) in the US, 34,727 suicides (2006). Women were 3,292 deaths by homicide (2013) and 10,238 suicides (2006).
I think men's mental health is a valid issue to talk about when 10x more men kill themselves than kill women (not that I'm saying that these are directly connected or that stopping murders isn't worthwhile). There's some easy wins you can get with monitoring Incel communities to recognise when an attack might happen - but we have to recognise that it's very, very rare. The threat is from the background radiation these communities generate, people generally aren't feminist due to some secret genocide of women, it's because there's still so many entirely unnecessary and often invisible obstacles in every day life that come from lots of tiny little pieces of misogyny acting via hundreds of different people.
These aren't happy and well people.
If you can start to fix that whilst also saving people, seems worth a try to me? But the strategy would be to deplatform/marginalise red pill/alt right philosophy sites, and attempt to save/recruit/educate most of the Incel types (can't save all of them, especially not the cult leaders) given they are also victims of toxic masculinity. Save people, starve the cults is a good thing in itself, let alone how much easier it'd make everything else.
I don’t think I’m too far off in positing that this is the “empathy” side of the argument. Scorched earth does not work has never worked short of actual extinction and genocide. Better to understand where the problem comes from, why people are vulnerable to these ideologies. Otherwise you’re basically just the USA and the War on Terror in a social aspect.
Is it harder? Is it an exhausting prospect? Yes. This is because the best solutions are rarely easy. Brushing the dirt under the carpet is easy, but hardly a real solution.
I have said a cure is needed, I am also saying that maybe something more can be done in the short term for their targets , at the very least even half the attention given to reforming incels.
But asking for some discussion on that side of things and what can be done, gets shut down as scorching the earth.
And you wonder why it's a frustrating conversation?
I don’t mean to do that. I’m referring to those questioning why empathy is deserved/needed, questioning why we should do anything but root out and destroy. Some are on that frame of mind, others not. That’s all I’m referring to.
How do you prove that this new subreddit is equivalent to the old one? You can push back on what it takes to get shutdown but an Incel subreddit that stays just under the line will almost certainly always exist.
You can certainly hunt them down and break up the subreddits. But where this will end is where it always ends: people learn. They create terminology. They hide meaning and intent in terms and inside language. Dog whistles, if you will.
This is how I see most fringe groups do it. Fringe they may be but they do endure.
So what do you propose?
Nobody's taking about that because I think we all pretty much agree.
Shut down platforms where they gather and feed off of each other? Yes ok.
Increased gun control, possibly looking for mental illness or histories of DV? Yes also good.
Like, instead of just saying "you should be taking about this other thing" just start talking about that other thing! Otherwise we're just fighting over what we think the other person is implying. Like, the implication I got from your post was "you all are ignoring women and just as bad as the incels".
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
To be fair, your first comment was incredibly black and white, implying that the discussion about helping people stop being incels was coddling abusers (the phrase poor misunderstood folk was in quotes which reads like you don't care about helping them stop becoming incels), that the victims should get more help and prevention (which was exactly what the discussion in the past few pages was about but it was centred on the victims side which was very vague in what you want the conversation to go) simply because the solutions involved meant acknowledging their hurt feelings.
I explained how the methods we were using were instrumental in foiling other criminals, as well as asked for clearer details on what things you thought were not explored on behalf of helping the victims and both went unanswered.
It's also difficult to know what you mean by "later." Two days, two weeks, two years - it was never explained what length was necessary and it could be interpreted as a means to shut down the conversation entirely since no details were expressed.
We have the same goals here, which is why the confrontational aspect is throwing people off.
I wasn't meaning to single you out, you just had a fitting term. Society in general is who I am speaking about, there's just a real imbalance in the attention given to help the incels and the help given to their targets.
Fringe is better than mainstream, and extremist groups should definitely be pushed off of mainstream platforms where recruitment is easy.
If "scorched earth" means shutting down forums and monitoring dangerous extremists, then I agree that it won't solve the problem completely but I'm also a pessimist and don't think the problem of sexist violence can ever be 100% "solved" except maybe far in the future when we're all genderless cyborgs, it can only be somewhat contained. To continue the counterterrorism metaphor, can we ever really end all terrorism forever? I don't think so, but ISIS had 99% of its territory taken back by military force, not that this means the Islamic State and their ideology and violence are gone by any means, but it's still a victory.
Society should offer young men better options than ISIS and inceldom, I don't dispute that at all and support efforts to make culture less toxic, but that's a much more amorphous problem and our approach needs to be multi pronged. Yes support better media, yes advocate for better mental health care, yes resist toxic masculinity in your personal life, but also let's take away their territory.
If turning Facebook and Instragram off got rid of incels, could we do it? What if we had to turn off the internet?
This is where the misunderstanding is im not asking "let's talk about protecting victims" in an accusatory way.
Im asking it in a begging tears in eyes what can we do can we discuss it , does anyone have a suggestion type way . because all answers so far are just to try and stop them in a generation or two and shrug and hope it works and hope they aren't too upset by it.
How about making police take them as a more serious threat so the next time an incel announces hes gonna murder a bunch of people then murders a bunch of people the response isn't " we couldn't have seen this coming what could make such a good white boy suddenly snap."
How about any conversation asking what can be done not being instantly shut down with "you just don't have empathy" or " well if you have no answers why should anyone?"
Edit: I think i am too close to this and gonna back out of thread for a bit. Prefacing this with a I don't mean anyone here but more in dealings in RL.
But it's a rough topic when people like me and the people I love are being beaten , raped and murdered by these monsters and the majority reply seems to be "how dare you call the people daily advocating for your death monsters"
Adding to this, the Crash Override network was created as a means to help online victims of harassment and abuse, and I'm sad they don't take charitable donations anymore. Does anyone know of a similar charity or advocacy group? Certainly we have the ACLU for hate groups specifically, but I feel like the need for groups surrounding the unique threats of the digital world and the willingness to advocate to law enforcement the importance of paying attention to these spaces is direly needed.
http://www.crashoverridenetwork.com/
To give Peterson the appropriate amount of credit, his explanation for his statement was 5D chess bullshit to own the libs by proving they're weaponizing sexual assault allegations. The TL;DR of Peterson's argument was if Kavanaugh withdrew before confirmation, he'd show allegations worked; if he kept the position, he'd be a lightning rod for the left. If he got confirmed and resigned, then whoever else was nominated would either be confirmed with no issues or, if accused, would magically prove both accusations were political hit jobs (because two rapists can't exist? Peterson is dumb).
To link this back to the topic at hand, it does show some fundamental problems with how to address large portions of the manosphere, even if they are not directly incels. There is a fundamental assumption even amongst their "intellectuals" that sexual assault and violence against women are not a problem, to the point an ostensibly apolitical cultural commentator is kind of tacitly advocating nominating rapists until people are convinced that, seriously, the left must be lying about some of them being rapists.
This makes it very difficult to convince people on the right of the dangers of incel ideology, because even if they're not so far gone as to advocate legalizing rape or whatever, they don't view incels as dangerous because they think its more likely they'll be falsely accused of assailt than actually commit assault.
I debate with people of opposite opinions all the time on the R/UKpol subreddit (most likely about Brexit).
Don't think I could debate an incel
With thread titles like "I officially hate women now", I don't think you can debate with any of them in good faith
AFAIK, one of the current reddit ceos is quoted as wanting to be so rich he won't be a slave once the apocalypse comes, but on the 'other side'
Might just as easily be accelerationism
On the contrary, reading the thread the folks saying that we don't owe incels endless empathy are the only people in here offering solutions. Deplatforming, gun control, proper screening, and mental health resources available to incels when they actually choose to avail themselves of it.
Others are just saying "we need to better understand these people" - and I'm not really sure exactly what that means. Don't we already understand pretty clearly where these people are coming from? It's being discussed ad nauseum in this thread. Honestly, the "we need to better understand and help these people" is starting to read like an empty academic stalling mechanism. I could be wrong and I'm willing to cop to that if someone can start articulating what better understanding means with some real practical means of executing on that.
Computer savvy people with internet security skills don't have a culturally prestigious public sector job to lure them away from the private sector. Seems like trawling through an online community checking for adolescent threats is scut work
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Like other forms of other-hatred, it's difficult to combat, and looking into causes can veer close to justification. I'll explicitly attempt to avoid that.
We've seen lots of "if I had seen this when I was younger" stories, and stories from people who are now lonely and depressed but recognize that inceldom is poison.
Do we think that the element of misogyny is an explanation of the different paths these people took than incels did?
Do we have reason to think that misogyny tends to be already present in pre-incels, to a greater degree than people who come back from the brink?
Do we think it's at all common for incels to develop their misogyny primarily after being drawn in to these online groups, through whatever mechanism?
Do the answers to these questions suggest any line of action, secondary to deplatforming since we mostly seem to agree that this should be step 1?
I know that people will functionally become incels whether or not they encounter this community. I guarantee that this will happen.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The Southern Poverty Law Center is tracking them. They are very good in general for identifying and investigating hate groups.
I agree that we need to do all the bolded.
I just also think we should focus on keeping people from getting to the point that they are vulnerable to these ideologies, or even mental illness in general, and that therapy is just a band-aid on a dysfunctional culture.
Therapy is not a bandaid - have you taken therapy? It's immensely helpful and everybody should do it if they're able.
There's no special panacea available for people that are pre-incel. They are just depressed people and can be treated like any depressed person. Them making the decision to join a hate group doesn't make their pain any more special than anybody else's. It just shows that they made the decision to go down a dark path and embrace a culture that's hurtful to everybody.
They might, but it's so much easier getting out when they're not in the crab bucket, getting pulled down every time they might make a move out
I think both can happen. Also I think the most reachable ones are the latter where they are only lured in by sense of community and not out of shared hate.
I think we are already in that direction, I am a lot more aware of the problems of toxic masculinity than my father was, and young men becoming adults now are better equipped than me. It doesnt hurt to give an extra push by helping whatever organization you simpathise with, be it going to feminist marches, promoting inclusive language, donating to the organizations that were mentioned early that focus on deconstructing toxic masculinity head on.
In the meantime, everytime an Incel community pops up, we should shoot it down by any legal means necesary. Scorn, shame and mockery are totally okay in my view, discrimination is absolutely okay. Anything to keep them from spouting their drivel in any public forum. Treat the individuals after the group has been burned to the ground.
The crab bucket is social isolation; the hate community is a boiling pot. These people tend to disappear when they're not talking, sometimes permanently
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.