It does not sound like anyone on this forum is against computerizing ATF records or building a registry.
They don't have to be because again its literally against the law. It's like I don't have to be rabidly anti vampire since vampires don't exist.
Well then, for the record I am for those laws to be rescinded and the investment made in making it happen. I would even be amenable to additional taxes on firearms to finance the whole endeavor.
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
It does not sound like anyone on this forum is against computerizing ATF records or building a registry.
They don't have to be because again its literally against the law. It's like I don't have to be rabidly anti vampire since vampires don't exist.
Well then, for the record I am for those laws to be rescinded and the investment made in making it happen. I would even be amenable to additional taxes on firearms to finance the whole endeavor.
For a minute I thought you were talking about a tax on firearms to develop vampires.
It does not sound like anyone on this forum is against computerizing ATF records or building a registry.
They don't have to be because again its literally against the law. It's like I don't have to be rabidly anti vampire since vampires don't exist.
Well then, for the record I am for those laws to be rescinded and the investment made in making it happen. I would even be amenable to additional taxes on firearms to finance the whole endeavor.
For a minute I thought you were talking about a tax on firearms to develop vampires.
The blood money to fund that project probably comes from arms sales to the Saudis.
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
i'm pretty sure i remember people arguing against a gun registry.
Usually on the basis of it not working, being too expensive, can't be done, etc...
The argument that America is especially awful so can't physically do a thing many other countries do is always weird.
I mean, it's basically always argued by conservatives who already have an inherently dim view on the government in the first place. And just like every other aspect of gun control, I'm kind of done giving a shit what conservatives think.
Stabbity Style on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I mean
How could we ever form an interconnected network of disparate bureaucratic state offices that can speak to each other with a fair amount of accuracy in accordance to all differing state and federal laws, keep valid and up to date records on an ever-evolving database, and be big enough to encompass such a large amount of people with so many differences?
It's impossible. It can't happen.
It's the DMV. The joke is we already have the infrastructure to do this in the DMV, just probably need to fortify the actual hardware.
It's also annoying enough to deal with the DMV that people won't buy guns on a whim if they know they need to get a license at the DMV.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
It's also annoying enough to deal with the DMV that people won't buy guns on a whim if they know they need to get a license at the DMV.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
It seems better in certain areas.
The DMV's here have drive-thru's for plate renewals.
It's also annoying enough to deal with the DMV that people won't buy guns on a whim if they know they need to get a license at the DMV.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
It seems better in certain areas.
The DMV's here have drive-thru's for plate renewals.
DMVs are really bad here because the conservative state legislature made it a requirement to have IDs to vote, then gutted the funding for the department while closing urban locations and upstaffing rural ones. They used to be efficient and quick a decade ago, but ya know.
As others have said, it is often worthwhile to look at the role conservatives have played in dismantling government institutions before criticizing them.
It's also annoying enough to deal with the DMV that people won't buy guns on a whim if they know they need to get a license at the DMV.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
Even at nice, well-run places, it's annoying to fill forms, wait for them to be processed, etc. A little red tape can go a long way. If you see a gun in the supermarket and think "I'd like to have that", if the thought is followed up by "But I'd have to go to the DMV first and line up and fill in the form and present 3 forms of ID and then I won't be able to get it for a couple of weeks when my license comes in the mail." you might not bother. And that's one less gun floating around.
The "voter suppression" theory of gun control.
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Blackhawk1313Demon Hunter for HireTime RiftRegistered Userregular
It's also annoying enough to deal with the DMV that people won't buy guns on a whim if they know they need to get a license at the DMV.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
Even at nice, well-run places, it's annoying to fill forms, wait for them to be processed, etc. A little red tape can go a long way. If you see a gun in the supermarket and think "I'd like to have that", if the thought is followed up by "But I'd have to go to the DMV first and line up and fill in the form and present 3 forms of ID and then I won't be able to get it for a couple of weeks when my license comes in the mail." you might not bother. And that's one less gun floating around.
The "voter suppression" theory of gun control.
Yes but that type of suppression is only ok to stop people they don’t want from voting, if it stopped even one person from buying a gun it’s a moral outrage.
It's also annoying enough to deal with the DMV that people won't buy guns on a whim if they know they need to get a license at the DMV.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
Even at nice, well-run places, it's annoying to fill forms, wait for them to be processed, etc. A little red tape can go a long way. If you see a gun in the supermarket and think "I'd like to have that", if the thought is followed up by "But I'd have to go to the DMV first and line up and fill in the form and present 3 forms of ID and then I won't be able to get it for a couple of weeks when my license comes in the mail." you might not bother. And that's one less gun floating around.
The "voter suppression" theory of gun control.
Yes but that type of suppression is only ok to stop people they don’t want from voting, if it stopped even one person from buying a gun it’s a moral outrage.
Well, ofcourse, voting is not a right enshrined in constitution.
This is legit the argument.
It's also annoying enough to deal with the DMV that people won't buy guns on a whim if they know they need to get a license at the DMV.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
Even at nice, well-run places, it's annoying to fill forms, wait for them to be processed, etc. A little red tape can go a long way. If you see a gun in the supermarket and think "I'd like to have that", if the thought is followed up by "But I'd have to go to the DMV first and line up and fill in the form and present 3 forms of ID and then I won't be able to get it for a couple of weeks when my license comes in the mail." you might not bother. And that's one less gun floating around.
The "voter suppression" theory of gun control.
Yes but that type of suppression is only ok to stop people they don’t want from voting, if it stopped even one person from buying a gun it’s a moral outrage.
Yes, but gun ownership is a constitutional right. Voting isn't. /s
Sic transit gloria mundi.
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Blackhawk1313Demon Hunter for HireTime RiftRegistered Userregular
It's also annoying enough to deal with the DMV that people won't buy guns on a whim if they know they need to get a license at the DMV.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
Even at nice, well-run places, it's annoying to fill forms, wait for them to be processed, etc. A little red tape can go a long way. If you see a gun in the supermarket and think "I'd like to have that", if the thought is followed up by "But I'd have to go to the DMV first and line up and fill in the form and present 3 forms of ID and then I won't be able to get it for a couple of weeks when my license comes in the mail." you might not bother. And that's one less gun floating around.
The "voter suppression" theory of gun control.
Yes but that type of suppression is only ok to stop people they don’t want from voting, if it stopped even one person from buying a gun it’s a moral outrage.
Yes, but gun ownership is a constitutional right. Voting isn't. /s
I’ll pretend that the 19th amendment as well as all other mentions of voting in the constitution don’t exist.
It's also annoying enough to deal with the DMV that people won't buy guns on a whim if they know they need to get a license at the DMV.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
Even at nice, well-run places, it's annoying to fill forms, wait for them to be processed, etc. A little red tape can go a long way. If you see a gun in the supermarket and think "I'd like to have that", if the thought is followed up by "But I'd have to go to the DMV first and line up and fill in the form and present 3 forms of ID and then I won't be able to get it for a couple of weeks when my license comes in the mail." you might not bother. And that's one less gun floating around.
The "voter suppression" theory of gun control.
Yes but that type of suppression is only ok to stop people they don’t want from voting, if it stopped even one person from buying a gun it’s a moral outrage.
Yes, but gun ownership is a constitutional right. Voting isn't. /s
I’ll pretend that the 19th amendment as well as all other mentions of voting in the constitution don’t exist.
Those are later additions.
Originally voting was white land owning men only.
Lot of conservatives treat the constitution like the bible.
By which i mean it is utterly inerrant and accurate, except when it contradicts them, and almost nobody really reads it.
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Blackhawk1313Demon Hunter for HireTime RiftRegistered Userregular
It's also annoying enough to deal with the DMV that people won't buy guns on a whim if they know they need to get a license at the DMV.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
Even at nice, well-run places, it's annoying to fill forms, wait for them to be processed, etc. A little red tape can go a long way. If you see a gun in the supermarket and think "I'd like to have that", if the thought is followed up by "But I'd have to go to the DMV first and line up and fill in the form and present 3 forms of ID and then I won't be able to get it for a couple of weeks when my license comes in the mail." you might not bother. And that's one less gun floating around.
The "voter suppression" theory of gun control.
Yes but that type of suppression is only ok to stop people they don’t want from voting, if it stopped even one person from buying a gun it’s a moral outrage.
Yes, but gun ownership is a constitutional right. Voting isn't. /s
I’ll pretend that the 19th amendment as well as all other mentions of voting in the constitution don’t exist.
Those are later additions.
Originally voting was white land owning men only.
Lot of conservatives treat the constitution like the bible.
By which i mean it is utterly inerrant and accurate, except when it contradicts them, and almost nobody really reads it.
I get that it’s a lot of bad faith arguing going on but it’s a the damn constitution, you can’t just ignore parts of it while saying it’s a sacred document. Yes yes I know what our Supreme Court situation is. Even 2A has the word “amendment” in it which by definition means it’s not original to the document itself but a change. It’s bad faith all around.
i'm pretty sure i remember people arguing against a gun registry.
Usually on the basis of it not working, being too expensive, can't be done, etc...
I seem to recall it was considered a slippery slope by the pro gun enthusiasts as opposed to something that would allow the ATF and CDC to properly respond to gun violence.
i'm pretty sure i remember people arguing against a gun registry.
Usually on the basis of it not working, being too expensive, can't be done, etc...
I seem to recall it was considered a slippery slope by the pro gun enthusiasts as opposed to something that would allow the ATF and CDC to properly respond to gun violence.
Which is why they oppose the most piddling little gun controls (such as banning bump stocks) and then whine when the proposed laws of non-gun owners don't use gun jargon in the way that they would.
Gun control laws would be better if gun owners participated in the process beyond the word "No!"
i'm pretty sure i remember people arguing against a gun registry.
Usually on the basis of it not working, being too expensive, can't be done, etc...
I seem to recall it was considered a slippery slope by the pro gun enthusiasts as opposed to something that would allow the ATF and CDC to properly respond to gun violence.
Which is why they oppose the most piddling little gun controls (such as banning bump stocks) and then whine when the proposed laws of non-gun owners don't use gun jargon in the way that they would.
Gun control laws would be better if gun owners participated in the process beyond the word "No!"
Frankly, the issue is that gun owners have crippled anything that isn't pro-gun; a CDC study of gun violence could be just as easily used as a guide for how law enforcement could pacify violent neighborhoods without having to turn them into a warzone while the ATF having access to a gun registry would make it easier for law enforcement to track down arms dealers and also return stolen fire arms.
But since the NRA has fed into the paranoia of gun owners for decades none of that is possible since it's possible that it could lead to folks getting there penis guns taken away from them and public spaces will continue to be slaughterhouses just like the founding fathers intended.
In terms of trying to make these tragedies rarer, without directly facing the massive gun corporate lobbies and right to bear arms, do you guys analyze other countries' methods and crime stats? Eg. The Czech Republic has extremely low gun crime rates, while also having a significant gun culture. There are some similarities in the gun culture as well in that the legal right to own them is considered an important freedom (because obviously the Nazis and then later the Soviets didn't allow people to have them).
I don't know why the crime rates are so very different, but it seems US could use more red tape?
To get a licence, you need to apply to the police and your name goes on the gun owner central database with your background check, and you have to do a theoretical and practical exam (safe handling, knowledge of relevant law, first aid, accuracy). And pay some fees of course.
People who go through that process very rarely commit crimes with their guns and the small number of gun crimes in the country mainly come from illegally obtained weapons, which is probably pretty difficult for random aggrieved/ unstable guy without criminal contacts.
A database of guns, gun owners, or gun sales is literally banned by law in the USA.
To perform a search, ATF investigators must find the specific index number of a former dealer, then search records chronologically for records of the exact gun they seek. They may review thousands of images in a search before they find the weapon they are looking for. That’s because dealer records are required to be “non-searchable” under federal law. Keyword searches, or sorting by date or any other field, are strictly prohibited.
The 1968 Gun Control Act gave the ATF authority to regulate federally licensed gun dealers. In 1978, the ATF tried to make dealers report most sales each quarter. The National Rifle Association and other groups denounced the plan, and lobbied to kill the reporting requirement. Congress did as the gun lobby requested, blocking the quarterly report proposal and reducing the ATF’s budget by $5 million: the amount the agency had sought to update its computer capacity.
“From that point on, if you even said ‘computer’ at ATF headquarters, everybody ran and hid in a closet,” says William Vizzard, a former ATF special agent and emeritus professor of criminal justice at California State University, Sacramento.
The war on searchable technology continued. In 1986, Congress enacted the Firearms Protection Act, which bans the ATF from creating a registry of guns, gun owners or gun sales.
Congress also put a rider barring the agency from “consolidation or centralization” of gun dealers’ records in every spending bill affecting the agency from 1979 through 2011, then made the prohibition permanent, under law.
Edit: The best comparison I can think of is how there is a difference between a place where cars are common and almost required and a place where cars are practically worshiped and criticism of anything about them is heresy. It is fairly easy to put various safety restrictions on getting a car in the former while it is almost unthinkable in the latter.
I did not know that. In spite of myself, I'm still suprised. I had assumed there was a searchable gun registry in the same way I assume chewing glass is a bad idea.
I'm starting to think that at least part of the gun culture wants there to be dangerous guns out there. Or to paraphrase: mass shootings are the point.
In terms of trying to make these tragedies rarer, without directly facing the massive gun corporate lobbies and right to bear arms, do you guys analyze other countries' methods and crime stats? Eg. The Czech Republic has extremely low gun crime rates, while also having a significant gun culture. There are some similarities in the gun culture as well in that the legal right to own them is considered an important freedom (because obviously the Nazis and then later the Soviets didn't allow people to have them).
I don't know why the crime rates are so very different, but it seems US could use more red tape?
To get a licence, you need to apply to the police and your name goes on the gun owner central database with your background check, and you have to do a theoretical and practical exam (safe handling, knowledge of relevant law, first aid, accuracy). And pay some fees of course.
People who go through that process very rarely commit crimes with their guns and the small number of gun crimes in the country mainly come from illegally obtained weapons, which is probably pretty difficult for random aggrieved/ unstable guy without criminal contacts.
A database of guns, gun owners, or gun sales is literally banned by law in the USA.
To perform a search, ATF investigators must find the specific index number of a former dealer, then search records chronologically for records of the exact gun they seek. They may review thousands of images in a search before they find the weapon they are looking for. That’s because dealer records are required to be “non-searchable” under federal law. Keyword searches, or sorting by date or any other field, are strictly prohibited.
The 1968 Gun Control Act gave the ATF authority to regulate federally licensed gun dealers. In 1978, the ATF tried to make dealers report most sales each quarter. The National Rifle Association and other groups denounced the plan, and lobbied to kill the reporting requirement. Congress did as the gun lobby requested, blocking the quarterly report proposal and reducing the ATF’s budget by $5 million: the amount the agency had sought to update its computer capacity.
“From that point on, if you even said ‘computer’ at ATF headquarters, everybody ran and hid in a closet,” says William Vizzard, a former ATF special agent and emeritus professor of criminal justice at California State University, Sacramento.
The war on searchable technology continued. In 1986, Congress enacted the Firearms Protection Act, which bans the ATF from creating a registry of guns, gun owners or gun sales.
Congress also put a rider barring the agency from “consolidation or centralization” of gun dealers’ records in every spending bill affecting the agency from 1979 through 2011, then made the prohibition permanent, under law.
Edit: The best comparison I can think of is how there is a difference between a place where cars are common and almost required and a place where cars are practically worshiped and criticism of anything about them is heresy. It is fairly easy to put various safety restrictions on getting a car in the former while it is almost unthinkable in the latter.
I'm starting to think that at least part of the gun culture wants there to be dangerous guns out there. Or to paraphrase: mass shootings are the point.
Yes, it makes us scared of them, and they like that.
One of the arguments used whenever the gun registry idea comes up has never failed to crack me up.
So gun dealers have to keep a log of all the guns they buy and sell, called a Bound Book.
Now mind you, this ONLY applies to firearms purchased and sold by the FFL itself, not any purchased or sold by the dealer as a private citizen, but that's a whole other can of worms.
Anyway, the BB has to accurately transcribe the firearm information directly from the steel, and when the firearm is sold, the BB entry is associated with the proper paperwork. Thus, if a firearm is ever lost/stolen, there's a paper trail.
Which is all fine and dandy, except that I worked at at least two FFLs which had waivers from the ATF to use an incredibly secure and impossible to falsely edit software for their BB known as Microsoft Excel.
Basically my point is, it's a fucking joke, and it's a fucking joke by design.
"now I've got this mental image of caucuses as cafeteria tables in prison, and new congressmen having to beat someone up on inauguration day." - Raiden333
"Wait, you don't even have a searchable registry?" is one of those moments that crystallizes just how mad the situation is.
"You lying liberals, it's searchable!" replies the conservative, because, yes, technically, you can physically search through a physical warehouse full of physical boxes full of physical papers. Good luck looking through all that paperwork before the state laws say "if you can't prove any reason to deny them a gun within X days, give them the gun."
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Well then, for the record I am for those laws to be rescinded and the investment made in making it happen. I would even be amenable to additional taxes on firearms to finance the whole endeavor.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
For a minute I thought you were talking about a tax on firearms to develop vampires.
The blood money to fund that project probably comes from arms sales to the Saudis.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
I mean, it's basically always argued by conservatives who already have an inherently dim view on the government in the first place. And just like every other aspect of gun control, I'm kind of done giving a shit what conservatives think.
How could we ever form an interconnected network of disparate bureaucratic state offices that can speak to each other with a fair amount of accuracy in accordance to all differing state and federal laws, keep valid and up to date records on an ever-evolving database, and be big enough to encompass such a large amount of people with so many differences?
It's impossible. It can't happen.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had problems doing anything at the DMV? I know it's a trope, but I guess I didn't realize it was actually something people had problems with.
It seems better in certain areas.
The DMV's here have drive-thru's for plate renewals.
I would support the DMV being where you license guns if only because it would be hilarious.
pleasepaypreacher.net
DMVs are really bad here because the conservative state legislature made it a requirement to have IDs to vote, then gutted the funding for the department while closing urban locations and upstaffing rural ones. They used to be efficient and quick a decade ago, but ya know.
As others have said, it is often worthwhile to look at the role conservatives have played in dismantling government institutions before criticizing them.
I thought it was more state legislature based so it was about what you expect based on the state's politics.
Even at nice, well-run places, it's annoying to fill forms, wait for them to be processed, etc. A little red tape can go a long way. If you see a gun in the supermarket and think "I'd like to have that", if the thought is followed up by "But I'd have to go to the DMV first and line up and fill in the form and present 3 forms of ID and then I won't be able to get it for a couple of weeks when my license comes in the mail." you might not bother. And that's one less gun floating around.
The "voter suppression" theory of gun control.
Yes but that type of suppression is only ok to stop people they don’t want from voting, if it stopped even one person from buying a gun it’s a moral outrage.
This is legit the argument.
Yes, but gun ownership is a constitutional right. Voting isn't. /s
I’ll pretend that the 19th amendment as well as all other mentions of voting in the constitution don’t exist.
Originally voting was white land owning men only.
Lot of conservatives treat the constitution like the bible.
By which i mean it is utterly inerrant and accurate, except when it contradicts them, and almost nobody really reads it.
I get that it’s a lot of bad faith arguing going on but it’s a the damn constitution, you can’t just ignore parts of it while saying it’s a sacred document. Yes yes I know what our Supreme Court situation is. Even 2A has the word “amendment” in it which by definition means it’s not original to the document itself but a change. It’s bad faith all around.
I seem to recall it was considered a slippery slope by the pro gun enthusiasts as opposed to something that would allow the ATF and CDC to properly respond to gun violence.
Which is why they oppose the most piddling little gun controls (such as banning bump stocks) and then whine when the proposed laws of non-gun owners don't use gun jargon in the way that they would.
Gun control laws would be better if gun owners participated in the process beyond the word "No!"
Frankly, the issue is that gun owners have crippled anything that isn't pro-gun; a CDC study of gun violence could be just as easily used as a guide for how law enforcement could pacify violent neighborhoods without having to turn them into a warzone while the ATF having access to a gun registry would make it easier for law enforcement to track down arms dealers and also return stolen fire arms.
But since the NRA has fed into the paranoia of gun owners for decades none of that is possible since it's possible that it could lead to folks getting there penis guns taken away from them and public spaces will continue to be slaughterhouses just like the founding fathers intended.
EDIT: Between 3 and 5 so far, sounds like. Initially narcotics call.
I did not know that. In spite of myself, I'm still suprised. I had assumed there was a searchable gun registry in the same way I assume chewing glass is a bad idea.
I'm starting to think that at least part of the gun culture wants there to be dangerous guns out there. Or to paraphrase: mass shootings are the point.
Yes, it makes us scared of them, and they like that.
Turns out they actually don't care about whether the government is corrupt or not, though. I think they just fantasize about shooting someone.
WTOV9 is a local tv tv station in the Ohio valley area
This is a thread about it. This is the third tweet in the thread and seems....not good?
So gun dealers have to keep a log of all the guns they buy and sell, called a Bound Book.
Now mind you, this ONLY applies to firearms purchased and sold by the FFL itself, not any purchased or sold by the dealer as a private citizen, but that's a whole other can of worms.
Anyway, the BB has to accurately transcribe the firearm information directly from the steel, and when the firearm is sold, the BB entry is associated with the proper paperwork. Thus, if a firearm is ever lost/stolen, there's a paper trail.
Which is all fine and dandy, except that I worked at at least two FFLs which had waivers from the ATF to use an incredibly secure and impossible to falsely edit software for their BB known as Microsoft Excel.
Basically my point is, it's a fucking joke, and it's a fucking joke by design.
Took him alive?
Edit: well fuck me running
Only because it appears I was wrong I will take it down.
I'm still not really distressed over it. The odds were in my favor.
https://eu.lohud.com/story/news/crime/2019/08/14/man-arrested-tuckahoe-large-cache-weapons/2008701001/
BMW SUV, says it all.
I kid, I kid. But that lot... *low whistle*
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PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Less that, more "we don't have one because it's illegal."
"You lying liberals, it's searchable!" replies the conservative, because, yes, technically, you can physically search through a physical warehouse full of physical boxes full of physical papers. Good luck looking through all that paperwork before the state laws say "if you can't prove any reason to deny them a gun within X days, give them the gun."
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar