The violations of civil liberties and constitutionally mandated due process, are stacking up. Denying POTUS the right to receive transcripts of testimony, access evidence, call witnesses, cross-examine, and many other basic rights! Never in US history! Never again.
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
joshofalltrades on
+15
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
it’s not the worst play if you’re banking on the american people being ignorant of the differences between impeachment and a criminal trial
which i mean
probably most people
Allegedly a voice of reason.
+26
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ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
I should not have to point out that a person quitting Fox News is not on topic here.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
So we're pretty sure now that Fox and Murdoch are doubling down on Trump. Definitely seems like the entire Republican apparatus is compromised and they're circling the wagons.
If trumptv launches, fox news will cease to have a reason to exist
Well, they are sort of right that Trump will be denied "transcripts of testimony, access evidence, call witnesses, cross-examine, and many other basic rights" because there won't be a trial in the Senate, McConnell will just hold a fast vote and the GOP will vote to keep him in office.
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
it’s not the worst play if you’re banking on the american people being ignorant of the differences between impeachment and a criminal trial
which i mean
probably most people
One googly-eyed animal to another, I think Rudy is so senile there's no way this is an intentional strategy instead of just random flailing
Nah, this sounds very similar to noise that the administration (or maybe it was just Guliani) were making last week. I thought maybe McCarthy was making a fuss about this not being treated like a criminal trial?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
it’s not the worst play if you’re banking on the american people being ignorant of the differences between impeachment and a criminal trial
which i mean
probably most people
One googly-eyed animal to another, I think Rudy is so senile there's no way this is an intentional strategy instead of just random flailing
Nah, this sounds very similar to noise that the administration (or maybe it was just Guliani) were making last week. I thought maybe McCarthy was making a fuss about this not being treated like a criminal trial?
For people who wish they could anthropomorphize the Constitution so they could fuck it, they sure haven’t read it
+17
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
The violations of civil liberties and constitutionally mandated due process, are stacking up. Denying POTUS the right to receive transcripts of testimony, access evidence, call witnesses, cross-examine, and many other basic rights! Never in US history! Never again.
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
“This has never happened before and we will not let it happen again” is some real flawless logic
Unless “Never again” is like a knee-jerk 9/11 reference to go with all those nouns and verbs
Rudy "nineleven" Giuliani being a series of paradoxical truths in a human suit means this is going to be very interesting/depressing/hilarious as things move forward. I predict he both tries to throw the administration under the bus and defend it at the same time, as is his tradition.
+1
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
In fact, Lev Parnas described himself to a foreign correspondent at the cash-bar event in midtown Manhattan as a friend of the president-elect who didn’t live far from his south Florida winter home.
Parnas arrived at Trump’s November 2016 election night party, which was held in a ballroom at the Midtown Hilton, with two other men in suits and their heavily made-up wives, according to a forgotten but newly relevant dispatch from the event published at the time in Le Figaro, France’s oldest daily newspaper.
The Ukrainian-born businessman told the paper that a friend from his hometown of Boca Raton, Florida, had hosted several fundraising events for Trump and that his daughter had traveled around the state singing on the candidate’s behalf. It is not clear what friend Parnas was referring to.
Giuliani attended the same party, as did Felix Sater, a former executive at the Trump Organization who had a double life as a convicted criminal and a high-level cooperator for the CIA. Sater, who told POLITICO earlier this month that he knows Parnas, said Friday that he did not interact with him at the party.
Parnas posted a photo of himself with Trump at the White House on May 1, 2018, with a caption describing an “incredible dinner and even better conversation,” according to a screenshot captured by The Campaign Legal Center. Another picture Parnas posted from May 21, 2018 shows him with Fruman and Donald Trump Jr. in Beverly Hills, with the capiton “Power Breakfast!!!”
Trump dismissed the photos “because I have a picture with everybody.”
The White House hasn’t explained why Parnas and Fruman were meeting with the president; a spokesman referred questions about the event to the Trump campaign, and Trump campaign communications director Tim Murtaugh did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
In retrospect, maybe all the criminals around Trump should have been a bigger clue to a lot of people that he was a crook.
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
it’s not the worst play if you’re banking on the american people being ignorant of the differences between impeachment and a criminal trial
which i mean
probably most people
One googly-eyed animal to another, I think Rudy is so senile there's no way this is an intentional strategy instead of just random flailing
Nah, this sounds very similar to noise that the administration (or maybe it was just Guliani) were making last week. I thought maybe McCarthy was making a fuss about this not being treated like a criminal trial?
For people who wish they could anthropomorphize the Constitution so they could fuck it, they sure haven’t read it
Constitution-chan.
There is now a franchise that makes treaties, the Magna Carta and other such legally-binding documents into anime girls.
+6
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
it’s not the worst play if you’re banking on the american people being ignorant of the differences between impeachment and a criminal trial
which i mean
probably most people
yeah he definitely knows that this is just the investigation phase and there's no reasonable or constitutional expectation that the president should be able to inject himself into it at this point
this is just an effort to shift public opinion against it
These aides have told Trump that Giuliani was only damaging his defense -- and after Thursday's arrests, Trump has raised his own questions privately about Giuliani's culpability, according to people familiar with his concerns.
Asked by CNN Thursday if he feared his personal attorney could be indicted potentially, Trump said: "I hope not."
He then put distance between himself and the actions undertaken by his lawyer.
"You know, he's got a lot of clients. So, I just don't know. I haven't spoken to Rudy about it, I don't know," Trump said.
Man, Trump is just going to pull down everyone around him, like someone being chased through a fruit market knocking over stands and trashcans as he flees his pursuers.
These aides have told Trump that Giuliani was only damaging his defense -- and after Thursday's arrests, Trump has raised his own questions privately about Giuliani's culpability, according to people familiar with his concerns.
Asked by CNN Thursday if he feared his personal attorney could be indicted potentially, Trump said: "I hope not."
He then put distance between himself and the actions undertaken by his lawyer.
"You know, he's got a lot of clients. So, I just don't know. I haven't spoken to Rudy about it, I don't know," Trump said.
Everybody should have seen this coming!
If he’s so goddamn busy with his clients why were you asking him to conduct illegal diplomacy under the table
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
I keep wondering what the tipping point is actually going to be.
+6
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I know it's not a criminal trial but I did think if there actually is an impeachment, there would be two sides presenting an argument one way or another.
I thought the issue was that we're not actually in an impeachment trial, as there hasn't actually been an impeachment vote... they're gathering info. logically trump could also me gathering his own info to present should this actually go to trial, ie impeachment.
if they're even more wrong than I thought... well, I won't be even a little bit surprised since I know nothing and they're more ignorant than I am.
I know it's not a criminal trial but I did think if there actually is an impeachment, there would be two sides presenting an argument one way or another.
I thought the issue was that we're not actually in an impeachment trial, as there hasn't actually been an impeachment vote... they're gathering info. logically trump could also me gathering his own info to present should this actually go to trial, ie impeachment.
if they're even more wrong than I thought... well, I won't be even a little bit surprised since I know nothing and they're more ignorant than I am.
We are currently in the inquiry to bring articles of impeachment (think of them as the list of charges in court) to a vote in the House. The House acts more like a mix of the police and prosecutors office at the moment.
If the vote succeeds with a majority the articles are sent to the Senate. The Senate holds a trial/discussion presided over by the Chief Justice. Then a vote which for removal requires a 2/3 majority.
I know it's not a criminal trial but I did think if there actually is an impeachment, there would be two sides presenting an argument one way or another.
I thought the issue was that we're not actually in an impeachment trial, as there hasn't actually been an impeachment vote... they're gathering info. logically trump could also me gathering his own info to present should this actually go to trial, ie impeachment.
if they're even more wrong than I thought... well, I won't be even a little bit surprised since I know nothing and they're more ignorant than I am.
We are currently in the inquiry stage, where the House gathers information and assembles articles of impeachment, which eventually there is a House vote on (similar to a grand jury, but a political process instead of a criminal one)
You do not get to do things like cross examine witnesses or present evidence while the police are investigating you; likewise, the president does not get to do these things when the House is looking into impeachable offenses
+16
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
I know it's not a criminal trial but I did think if there actually is an impeachment, there would be two sides presenting an argument one way or another.
I thought the issue was that we're not actually in an impeachment trial, as there hasn't actually been an impeachment vote... they're gathering info. logically trump could also me gathering his own info to present should this actually go to trial, ie impeachment.
if they're even more wrong than I thought... well, I won't be even a little bit surprised since I know nothing and they're more ignorant than I am.
Once articles of impeachment are passed, then the Senate would usually hold what amounts to a political trial. All the trappings of a criminal trial, but without jail time as a direct possible result. Unless Mitch goes "lolnope" and then maybe we get a voice vote to agree that we would never agree on impeachment and we should all move on.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
The violations of civil liberties and constitutionally mandated due process, are stacking up. Denying POTUS the right to receive transcripts of testimony, access evidence, call witnesses, cross-examine, and many other basic rights! Never in US history! Never again.
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
This administration has given the Internet so many uses for the “that’s not how any of this works” clip that I think that actress should be getting royalties for it.
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
it’s not the worst play if you’re banking on the american people being ignorant of the differences between impeachment and a criminal trial
which i mean
probably most people
One googly-eyed animal to another, I think Rudy is so senile there's no way this is an intentional strategy instead of just random flailing
No this is actually the strategy. It lines up - minority in the house claiming they're being silenced and demanding due process, the leaked talking points (both sets), Trump's refusal to hand over documents, Rudy's comment here, it's all adding up to an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the impeachment before it occurs.
This is orchestrated and intentional - it's the angle they've settled on. Whether it works is open but it's a repeat of Mueller, but things are moving much faster now.
+28
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
also rudy standing up defiant in defense of trump at the same time trump is distancing himself is probably not a coincidence
rudy knows who’s next standing in front of the trump bus
The previous bullshit worked against mueller because of how long it took to come out, and they were able to control the message. This just kind of continually blows up more and more everyday, and you have complete idiots like Rudy on news shows admitting to crimes we didn't even know yet, you can't control this message.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The previous bullshit worked against mueller because of how long it took to come out, and they were able to control the message. This just kind of continually blows up more and more everyday, and you have complete idiots like Rudy on news shows admitting to crimes we didn't even know yet, you can't control this message.
Also, the Mueller report being longer than 8 pages. People actually read the memo and the Whistleblower report.
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
it’s not the worst play if you’re banking on the american people being ignorant of the differences between impeachment and a criminal trial
which i mean
probably most people
One googly-eyed animal to another, I think Rudy is so senile there's no way this is an intentional strategy instead of just random flailing
No this is actually the strategy. It lines up - minority in the house claiming they're being silenced and demanding due process, the leaked talking points (both sets), Trump's refusal to hand over documents, Rudy's comment here, it's all adding up to an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the impeachment before it occurs.
This is orchestrated and intentional - it's the angle they've settled on. Whether it works is open but it's a repeat of Mueller, but things are moving much faster now.
Rudy's tweet here is just repeating the same talking points in Kevin McCarthy's demands to Pelosi last week.
The messaging itself was crafted with focused intent, but whether Rudy's recent regurgitation of it is calculated strategy, or a panicked plea to not be coffee-boy'd, is anyone's guess today.
Also: Why is there a single word for being thrown out of a window but not under a bus?
Why aren't any of those reporters pushing him on his bs.
Trump is a petulant, spoilt brat.
The more pressure you apply the more he will squirm and rant and rage and actively sabotage himself in an attempt to make all the demands for accountability stop.
This is why they started doing press in front of a running helicopter engine. Trump can ignore questions he doesn't like, or literally just fly away if things get bad.
Shit, it's why Colbert's Late Show has an entire segment called Chopper Talk dedicated to Trump.
Man, they’re really playing Nixon’s greatest hits aren’t they?
While the obvious comparison is well... obvious, it's not quite accurate.
The issue is twofold.
1) The President can legally withhold the payment to Ukraine.
2) The President CANNOT abuse his power.
The statement from the OMB appears to be specifically referring to the first one. There could be any number of valid reasons for a President to withhold payment. Maybe there's credible reports that the Ukrainian government is compromised, or that they've just done something that needs to be resolved before the President feels needs to be sorted out before the payment is made. That's two reasons.
That rule 2 was abused doesn't change the legality of rule 1. It's rule 2 that was broken here.
I can ask a stranger for money, and outside of maybe certain "anti-begging" laws, that's fine. I do it in a menacing voice, while pointing a pistol at them, then it's a crime. It's not the request (or in the example above, the withholding) that's the problem here.
Isn’t that just the same thing but with more words?
The president technically can withhold money if he has a legal justification. He did not have a legal justification. It was therefore an illegal withholding of money. OMB says if the President does it, it’s not illegal as justification.
Ergo, Nixon’s greatest hits.
Edit: fucking Siri
I think it depends on the timing. The OMB appears to be making the decision on legality of withholding in mid-July (at least from what I can figure the timing from the article), well before the knowledge that the reason behind it was illegal.
President say no.
Pentagon says but we want to send it.
OMB says the President can say no without reason (with the understanding that as long as it's not for illegal reasons).
*several months later*
President's reasons are found to be illegal.
Now, for the Nixon comparison to be more accurate, the OMB would have to have known about the President's illegal reason before issuing the ruling. Doesn't appear that was the case.
Fair enough.
But if DoD was saying it’s illegal, what was OMB’s justification for its legality aside from the Nixon defense?
The timing thing you have to add in there that the DoD did tell OMB that it wasn’t legal before the memo came out.
The Nixon defence is not "The President has authority to do this", it's "If the President does it, it's not illegal".
OMB's justification here, as far as I can tell, is the first not the second. In much the same way that leaking classified data would be illegal except if the President says you can because the President has the authority to contradict that. They are saying the President has the authority to do this here, not that it's illegal to do it but because the President did it it's fine.
Except Trump didn’t have the authority to do this. From the article:
The Pentagon went so far as to conduct its own legal analysis of the holds, determining that they were illegal. A government official confirmed that such an analysis took place. So did several Capitol Hill staffers. They all described the conclusion of that analysis in similar terms.
At that point, the budget office revealed that the holds were authorized at the direction of the president, which, in effect, made them legal.
DoD said this is illegal. No if, ands, buts, or exceptions.
OMB’s defense isn’t some kind of technically correct horseshit on Thursdays if you cross your eyes and spin twice in a circle, like the President’s discretion over classified material. It was completely illegal and their only given justification is that Trump is the president. That’s it.
It’s straight Nixon defense.
That's what DoD's people think. OMB seem to disagree.
Necessary context for OMB's legal analysis:
WH Counsel has tried to argue that impeachment is unconstitutional
DOJ has tried to argue that NY State can't investigate the finances of the President or his family
So I'm gonna go with the DOD on this one over the department run by the WH Chief of staff. Idk, maybe I'm biased.
Shit, in regards to the OMB siding with Trump on withholding the funds to Ukraine, their entire argument is literally the Palpatine defense - "Then I will make it legal."
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
it’s not the worst play if you’re banking on the american people being ignorant of the differences between impeachment and a criminal trial
which i mean
probably most people
One googly-eyed animal to another, I think Rudy is so senile there's no way this is an intentional strategy instead of just random flailing
No this is actually the strategy. It lines up - minority in the house claiming they're being silenced and demanding due process, the leaked talking points (both sets), Trump's refusal to hand over documents, Rudy's comment here, it's all adding up to an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the impeachment before it occurs.
This is orchestrated and intentional - it's the angle they've settled on. Whether it works is open but it's a repeat of Mueller, but things are moving much faster now.
Rudy's tweet here is just repeating the same talking points in Kevin McCarthy's demands to Pelosi last week.
The messaging itself was crafted with focused intent, but whether Rudy's recent regurgitation of it is calculated strategy, or a panicked plea to not be coffee-boy'd, is anyone's guess today.
Also: Why is there a single word for being thrown out of a window but not under a bus?
Windows are older. Speedbumped?
In any event, I don't really see the talking points being particularly useful outside of the people who will always support Trump. Especially not for news coverage, since reporters understand this is an investigation, not a trial, and are unlikely to even half assedly pretend it's legitimate. Especially with Republicans sitting on the damn committees pretending to be shocked at testimony.
Also: Why is there a single word for being thrown out of a window but not under a bus?
subpubconveyance?
Refenderstrate. I hope that old ghoul Rudy goes down quick. It's one thing to be senile and stupid. It's another to aid and abet senile and stupid for your own gain. Sometimes I think I hate him more than Trump himself.
+3
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
Posts
OMG are we on the brink of Rudy being the coffee boy?
I'm squee-ing at the thought.
Rudy Giuliani is, inexplicably, a lawyer... the president's lawyer
Is he being willfully ignorant about the impeachment process, or is he just the worst lawyer of all time?
Por que no los dos?
the administration right now is basically that scene in hotel rwanda except not horrifying or tragic
Barely know him, he just gets the coffee.
Steam: adamjnet
it’s not the worst play if you’re banking on the american people being ignorant of the differences between impeachment and a criminal trial
which i mean
probably most people
One googly-eyed animal to another, I think Rudy is so senile there's no way this is an intentional strategy instead of just random flailing
also entirely possible
FOXNews just had a position become available.
http://lexiconmegatherium.tumblr.com/
Nah, this sounds very similar to noise that the administration (or maybe it was just Guliani) were making last week. I thought maybe McCarthy was making a fuss about this not being treated like a criminal trial?
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
For people who wish they could anthropomorphize the Constitution so they could fuck it, they sure haven’t read it
“This has never happened before and we will not let it happen again” is some real flawless logic
Unless “Never again” is like a knee-jerk 9/11 reference to go with all those nouns and verbs
Constitution-chan.
There is now a franchise that makes treaties, the Magna Carta and other such legally-binding documents into anime girls.
yeah he definitely knows that this is just the investigation phase and there's no reasonable or constitutional expectation that the president should be able to inject himself into it at this point
this is just an effort to shift public opinion against it
Everybody should have seen this coming!
If he’s so goddamn busy with his clients why were you asking him to conduct illegal diplomacy under the table
I thought the issue was that we're not actually in an impeachment trial, as there hasn't actually been an impeachment vote... they're gathering info. logically trump could also me gathering his own info to present should this actually go to trial, ie impeachment.
if they're even more wrong than I thought... well, I won't be even a little bit surprised since I know nothing and they're more ignorant than I am.
We are currently in the inquiry to bring articles of impeachment (think of them as the list of charges in court) to a vote in the House. The House acts more like a mix of the police and prosecutors office at the moment.
If the vote succeeds with a majority the articles are sent to the Senate. The Senate holds a trial/discussion presided over by the Chief Justice. Then a vote which for removal requires a 2/3 majority.
We are currently in the inquiry stage, where the House gathers information and assembles articles of impeachment, which eventually there is a House vote on (similar to a grand jury, but a political process instead of a criminal one)
You do not get to do things like cross examine witnesses or present evidence while the police are investigating you; likewise, the president does not get to do these things when the House is looking into impeachable offenses
Once articles of impeachment are passed, then the Senate would usually hold what amounts to a political trial. All the trappings of a criminal trial, but without jail time as a direct possible result. Unless Mitch goes "lolnope" and then maybe we get a voice vote to agree that we would never agree on impeachment and we should all move on.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
This administration has given the Internet so many uses for the “that’s not how any of this works” clip that I think that actress should be getting royalties for it.
Rudy, we'll impeach and remove him, making him eligible for prosecution, at which point we'd be glad to give you copies of the info.
While that's probably true, he just failed to realize it's because of the FBI van across the street snapping photos of him meeting with everyone.
No this is actually the strategy. It lines up - minority in the house claiming they're being silenced and demanding due process, the leaked talking points (both sets), Trump's refusal to hand over documents, Rudy's comment here, it's all adding up to an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the impeachment before it occurs.
This is orchestrated and intentional - it's the angle they've settled on. Whether it works is open but it's a repeat of Mueller, but things are moving much faster now.
rudy knows who’s next standing in front of the trump bus
pleasepaypreacher.net
Also, the Mueller report being longer than 8 pages. People actually read the memo and the Whistleblower report.
Rudy's tweet here is just repeating the same talking points in Kevin McCarthy's demands to Pelosi last week.
The messaging itself was crafted with focused intent, but whether Rudy's recent regurgitation of it is calculated strategy, or a panicked plea to not be coffee-boy'd, is anyone's guess today.
Also: Why is there a single word for being thrown out of a window but not under a bus?
Shit, it's why Colbert's Late Show has an entire segment called Chopper Talk dedicated to Trump.
Shit, in regards to the OMB siding with Trump on withholding the funds to Ukraine, their entire argument is literally the Palpatine defense - "Then I will make it legal."
God it will be a beautiful thing.
subpubconveyance?
Windows are older. Speedbumped?
In any event, I don't really see the talking points being particularly useful outside of the people who will always support Trump. Especially not for news coverage, since reporters understand this is an investigation, not a trial, and are unlikely to even half assedly pretend it's legitimate. Especially with Republicans sitting on the damn committees pretending to be shocked at testimony.
Refenderstrate. I hope that old ghoul Rudy goes down quick. It's one thing to be senile and stupid. It's another to aid and abet senile and stupid for your own gain. Sometimes I think I hate him more than Trump himself.
The act of defenestration in Prague started a war. Then two hundred years later started another war
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestration
Throwing someone under the bus just doesn't have that kind of street cred