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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Winning The Argument Looks A Lot Like Losing

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    PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    Why would you compare Corbyn to Adolf Hitler when you're trying to defend him or am I missing something

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    JazzJazz Registered User regular
    We're on to Ken Livingstone impressions, I see.

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    NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    There’s something perfectly Tory about trying to get your dad to bail you out at the first sign of difficulty.

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    painfulPleasancepainfulPleasance The First RepublicRegistered User regular
    edited November 2019
    @Absalon
    Incumbent Hitler versus New Hitler is an argument, I guess. But if one says they would support new hitler over incumbent hitler one is saying one would support A Hitler, and if you support A. Hitler you're a nazi!

    painfulPleasance on
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    CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited November 2019
    Absalon
    Incumbent Hitler versus New Hitler is an argument, I guess. But if one says they would support new hitler over incumbent hitler one is saying one would support A Hitler, and if you support A. Hitler you're a nazi!

    This took me several attempts to parse correctly.

    Casual on
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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    3qbfyeffjdbp.png

    alas the personal toxicity of jeremy corbyn is probably the single reason this election has even a chance of a conservative win

    obF2Wuw.png
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    MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Is "their plan might damage businesses" a concern or a hope?

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
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    JazzJazz Registered User regular
    Sections of voters: "Labour's plans might damage business!"

    Boris Johnson: "Fuck business."

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    BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »

    I believe that's found at 22 Acacia Avenue.

    No matter where you go...there you are.
    ~ Buckaroo Banzai
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    JazzJazz Registered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »

    I believe that's found at 22 Acacia Avenue.

    That's the place where we all go.

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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    This is the stuff that's driving me towards internet conspiracy videos; you largely agree with his policies, but are concerned that he'll shed his skin and reveal himself to be Stalin reborn? Crushing all opponent beneath his New World Order with the same ruthless efficiency he has approached other obstacles as Leader?

    Is number one a weird confluence of people scared he will spend too much and damage the economy, and those who think he's not the one who can carry this out?

    Or is the "I really don't want to have to find out who Stormzy is and why that matters" vote also a key metric.
    Ha, who I am kidding, it totally is regardless of any other Labour polling.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Elections aren't really that much about policy for most voters. Being a shitty leader has real actual consequences for people's desire to vote for you.

    If people don't trust you or don't like you or whatever, they will be more hesitant to vote for you.

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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    This is completely, insanely undemocratic and even a casual consideration of the implications of this statements should make you realize that.

    Yes, it is. I do not believe that the gallows should be brought back no matter what a majority of people think. I think that race, ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation rights exist and must be protected no matter the public will. I don't believe that declaring war on Ireland is something that should be put up to a plebiscite. Untempered majority rule is not an inherent good, nor should it be portrayed as one.

    I realize this from a couple days ago but I don't think "Human rights are not up for debate" is the same as you saying "politicians shouldn't follow the will of the people if it causes damage to the country or people". Of course the majority doesn't get to strip away the humanity of people. And of course untempered majority rule is not an inherent good, and nobody said it was.

    But your example of war on Ireland suggests that the problem is simply the aspect of direct democracy of a referendum. If elected representatives choose to declare war on Ireland, like they did on Afghanistan and Iraq and etc., that would presumably be fine, right? Does that apply to the other things too? Is it fine to bring back the gallows, or deny human rights, if it's the rulers doing it? Is your objection to the "will of the people" bit or to the action itself? Because the reason I called your remark insanely undemocratic wasn't because I don't believe some things are simply not up for discussion, but because you are saying that those in charge should stop the people from doing themselves harm in general. e.g. don't Brexit because it would do a lot of damage to the country. which is doubly ridiculous because the British people weren't asked if they wanted to join the EU in the first place. Is there anything you think they should have a say in? Or is it just that they should have a say unless they make the damaging choice? (And in that case shouldn't we prevent the people from electing Conservatives all the time?)


    also if the problem is a plebiscite, couldn't the people just elect people to do that thing? sure ignore the referendum, but what if the people give a majority to the party running on a "Get Brexit done" platform? how is that actually different from following the will of the people?

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    PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    Julius wrote: »
    And of course untempered majority rule is not an inherent good, and nobody said it was.

    What exactly does temper majority rule if you say it is undemocratic that anyone should go against the "will of the people" (which will always be ill-defined and up for interpretation)

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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    like the thing is, and the fundamental problem with the "Ignore the referendum and simply Remain" position is, that the people elected someone who promised to hold a referendum. you can say the people shouldn't get to have a referendum here, which what the hell?, but then they'll just elect someone to do the actual thing. You just get a GE that is a referendum which is just worse. The whole point of a referendum is to isolate one issue from all the other regular political issues. if you think leaving should be possible then the only difference between holding a referendum and electing someone to do it is that the latter is way messier.

    If you think leaving the EU just shouldn't be possible, like how removing people's human rights shouldn't be possible, then the undemocratic thing but also that's just a weird position to have? like, deep international relations between nation states are the obvious examples of things that should be up to the people of a nation?

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    PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    I think you're missing the point that people would vote for the Remain party

    And if that Remain party would win the election, that result would be just as democratic as a plebiscite

    It's also fair for people who are going to have their rights stripped away from them to wish for a candidate who would represent their personal interests

    Unless your problem is with representative democracy in general

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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    The fact that voter turnout is a variable affecting elections continually baffles me in every country where it's a thing.

    I feel like government, in many cases, exists to protect people from their own stupid impulses, and "stay home and don't have a say in who rules you" is a very stupid impulse that people shouldn't necessarily be free to exercise, because it actively harms everyone else.

    Australia may have a couple awful election results, but at least we can confidently say it's as a result of the majority of voters being awful people, rather than mostly good people who choose to stay home and let the awful people decide who rules.

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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    It can be hard to boost turnout when one side has a vested interest in as many people not voting as possible

    One Tory on my Facebook has this as their current status:
    It's probably not worth your time registering to vote if you haven't already. The chances your vote will change anything are extremely close to zero.

    He's now muted, obviously

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    I just mean that presenting yourself at a polling place should be mandatory. Just eliminate turnout as a relevant variable entirely.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    McDonnell was on Radio 4 this morning effectively taking apart the pathetic defences of the Tories for Johnson not turning up and delaying or ignoring the Andrew Neil interview. He's a lot better at interviews than Corbyn. Doesn't get tetchy, engages a lot more effectively, a better speaker in general.

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    evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    McDonnell was on Radio 4 this morning effectively taking apart the pathetic defences of the Tories for Johnson not turning up and delaying or ignoring the Andrew Neil interview. He's a lot better at interviews than Corbyn. Doesn't get tetchy, engages a lot more effectively, a better speaker in general.

    Who, Boris?
    Last time he was on with Neil he got pressed into what WTO terms mean, and all Boris could do was say he places his faith in article so and so and when pressed on what the article actually said he didn't know. And that's the kind of journalist we need. Keep pushing these morons on their BS.

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    McDonnell is a better speaker than Corbyn is what I was saying.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    Johnson is being interviewed by Nick Ferrari on LBC right now. I'm not listening, but judging from the Guardian blog's account of it things aren't going very well.
    How come that Johnson is prepared to comment on other people’s children if he isn’t prepared to talk about his own?, Ferrari asks. “How many children do you have? Are you fully and wholly involved in all their lives?”

    “I don’t think this is what the nation wants to hear,” Johnson says, after a lengthy attempt to deflect.

    Is there another Johnson on the way?, he is asked. The PM struggles again, stammers a few lines about getting Brexit done.
    Where is Jacob Rees-Mogg?, Ferrari asks. What did the PM say to him after he made widely criticised derogatory comments about the victims of the Grenfell tragedy? The PM doesn’t answer and digresses again, but is eventually cornered.

    “I’m not going to go into my conversations with colleagues,” the PM says, clearly thrown by Ferrari’s insistence that he answer this question.
    The next caller asks Johnson about his plans for social care.

    We’re putting £1.5bn in, and another billion every year for the next five years.

    Johnson is pressed about a statement he made a few weeks back, in which he expressed that he doesn’t think anybody should have to sell their home to get social care. How will it then be funded, Ferrari asks? Johnson grumbles and mumbles for a bit. “You don’t know, do you? [..] You don’t have a clue!,” Ferrari says. “I don’t have this figure now, no,” Johnson says.

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Nick Ferrari really tears into people and I love it

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Is there another Johnson on the way?, he is asked. The PM struggles again, stammers a few lines about getting Brexit done.

    Not being able to answer whether he's managed to impregnate someone is a hell of a look. Might as well just say "Look, I fuck a lot of women and never use birth control, so who knows?" Saying that you're currently not expecting another child with your partner should be gravy unless you're thinking it's a trap where the followup will be about all the other women you're sleeping with.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    TavTav Irish Minister for DefenceRegistered User regular
    edited November 2019
    It can be hard to boost turnout when one side has a vested interest in as many people not voting as possible

    One Tory on my Facebook has this as their current status:
    It's probably not worth your time registering to vote if you haven't already. The chances your vote will change anything are extremely close to zero.

    He's now muted, obviously

    speaking of, the Beeb had these up on their social media before the registration deadline



    it's hilariously transparent as well as being a total How Do You Do, Fellow Kids? move

    Tav on
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    CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    It's frustrating to see how badly Boris can do in practically every interview and how little difference it's going to make. I think everyone voting in this election had made their minds up as soon as it was called and nothing in the campaign has changed it.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    Johnson's dad just responded on TV to a member of the public calling his son Pinocchio by saying he didn't think the British public had the literacy to say that.

    As Phil Wang commented, the apple doesn't fall far from the cunt.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    I think Corbyn's insistence on never attacking Johnson's character when it's by far his biggest weakness is proving to be a real hindrance.

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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Does Johnson Senior not know that Pinocchio was made into a film?

    We don't need to be literate for that reference

    (I'm aware that I'm missing the major issue with what he said, but still)

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Wait, Pinocchio was made into a book?!
    (I think Aquaman made that joke?)

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited November 2019
    Bogart wrote: »
    I think Corbyn's insistence on never attacking Johnson's character when it's by far his biggest weakness is proving to be a real hindrance.

    Let's be honest here. :P

    Just goddamn, who thought not attacking his character was a good idea? How did this idea not immediately get laughed out of the room?

    shryke on
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    Other Labour figures attack Johnson on it, but since Corbyn gets the most screen time it's a big gap in offensive capability. I certainly don't think he's gaining many votes by not attacking Johnson's character out of his own unshakeable nobility.

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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    JFC
    "You know, that requires a degree of literacy which I know the great British public doesn’t necessarily have."

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnsons-father-dismisses-voters-idiots-for-calling-his-son-a-liar_uk_5de111a4e4b0913e6f7d54d0?ncid=fcbklnkukhpmg00000001&fbclid=IwAR3Dvy50lwUc6UOpTg_kcSfVLW1ShMubzAOLXJQZyCiJQ6WfT4vaC8rDPsE

    Hopefully the masses remember that while thinking he's cute and cuddly on fucking reality shows.

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    JazzJazz Registered User regular
    fucking reality shows.

    Now there's an idea...

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    JazzJazz Registered User regular
    edited November 2019
    London Bridge is currently cordoned off, with a BBC reporter in the area reporting sounds of gunfire. Story is still breaking:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50604781

    Edit: police say a number of people have been injured and a man has been detained.

    Jazz on
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    ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    wasn't there a terrorist attack in the leadup to 2017 also

    aRkpc.gif
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    PerduraboPerdurabo Registered User regular
    Finish your thought, or did the tin foil run out?

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    I don't think there's any call to assume ronya was suggesting a conspiracy theory rather than a coincidence.

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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited November 2019
    ronya wrote: »
    wasn't there a terrorist attack in the leadup to 2017 also

    Do you mean the assassination of Jo Cox or something else?

    moniker on
This discussion has been closed.