Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Yeah my other Mono-White big mana deck plays the Karns so I don't really want to add them here. I could switch Ugin for Ulamog but, honestly? I think the win-con is people scooping to losing all of their lands.
A win condition that isn't "Ugin +2 a bunch" or 1/1 Human token beats? Like some sort of Karn maybe?
I think Kaya would work well with a lot of exile effects.
If I were gonna run Kaya in this (and it's a good suggestion) I think I'd also go for Karn's Bastion to speed up her ultimate a turn. It also does amusing things with Fall of the Thran...
How come MTGO gets updated the same day, but Arena has to wait. Especially since they can do quick updates before with the quick Winota suspension.
I think it requires a patch on MtGA + wildcards being given out, and unscheduled MtGA patches suck.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
Do people in here do commander? I picked up a couple of Ikoria commander decks because they looked interesting to support my FLGS and I've played some with my friend and it's pretty fun. I have some deck thoughts that I wouldn't mind more intelligent people looking over.
Do people in here do commander? I picked up a couple of Ikoria commander decks because they looked interesting to support my FLGS and I've played some with my friend and it's pretty fun. I have some deck thoughts that I wouldn't mind more intelligent people looking over.
Do people in here do commander? I picked up a couple of Ikoria commander decks because they looked interesting to support my FLGS and I've played some with my friend and it's pretty fun. I have some deck thoughts that I wouldn't mind more intelligent people looking over.
Commander is great. Through remember that it's a social format so you want to focus on decks that are "fun" for the entire table especially if you're playing multiplayer and risk getting targeted down by everyone else. Don't go too overboard with the power compared to everyone else if you're not willing to play 3v1.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
Do people in here do commander? I picked up a couple of Ikoria commander decks because they looked interesting to support my FLGS and I've played some with my friend and it's pretty fun. I have some deck thoughts that I wouldn't mind more intelligent people looking over.
Commander is great. Through remember that it's a social format so you want to focus on decks that are "fun" for the entire table especially if you're playing multiplayer and risk getting targeted down by everyone else. Don't go too overboard with the power compared to everyone else if you're not willing to play 3v1.
This is kind of exactly the thing I'm trying to figure out. Obviously the target might change when covid is more dealt with and I can go out into the world and try to find more people to play with, and I'll want to adjust to what their preference is, or realistically have a few decks of varying level to play. It's the whole singleton thing and trying to aim for the right amount of consistency, and really just making sure the deck plays well. I'll show you what I mean. Here's my Teysa deck that I'm working on.
I've been testing it out with my friend on TTS and making small, iterative changes. This is about the budget I want to be at, although I do have some wiggle room. It's actually a little higher as listed than I'd have to spend, I have some of the cards already from some guild kits I'm willing to cannibalize from, like the Smothering Tithe, both Teysas, etc. So what I've mostly been concerned with is making sure I have enough sacrifice outlets, payoffs, card draw, etc. I started with EDHREC's average budget list, and one thing I noticed is that anything that requires you to spend mana to sac feels really bad! Sometimes you want to be able to play Teysa and just get a bunch of value off of her the same turn, or be able to threaten it if someone tries to remove her, and paying even 1 to sac something means you're just screwed, so I immediately determined that getting Ashnod's Altar and Spawning Pit were worth the spend.
What I'd like someone to double check is do I have the right ratio of enablers and payoffs, card draw to find those things, etc. I don't really need to be at the scary infinite combo level but I just want to make sure I'm not making any glaring mistakes so when I do play, it's not just me spinning my wheels hoping to find something to actually go off. Also, am I spending on the right stuff? I put in Massacre Wurm because it seems dope and cool but maybe that's $5 that would be better spent elsewhere? Yahenni, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, and Karmic Guide also seem super cool. Should I try to get Altar of Dementia in instead for another sac outlet?
I think you might want to consider a small amount of graveyard recovery. You have no way to bring those creatures back, so you might stall out, and you're incentivized to sac/kill your own creatures.
Sorin might be good, also that new Idol from 2021 could be a nice fit too.
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
edited July 2020
Hmm, is it better to have something that does more at once, or something recurring like the ones you mentioned? I guess the answer is "some of both," looking at Victimize, Living Death, or Command the Dreadhorde. What to cut though? This is probably exactly where I'm having the most issues. Should I cut one of my many life drainers? Do I have too many token makers? It's hard to find the fat to cut.
Do people in here do commander? I picked up a couple of Ikoria commander decks because they looked interesting to support my FLGS and I've played some with my friend and it's pretty fun. I have some deck thoughts that I wouldn't mind more intelligent people looking over.
Commander is great. Through remember that it's a social format so you want to focus on decks that are "fun" for the entire table especially if you're playing multiplayer and risk getting targeted down by everyone else. Don't go too overboard with the power compared to everyone else if you're not willing to play 3v1.
This is kind of exactly the thing I'm trying to figure out. Obviously the target might change when covid is more dealt with and I can go out into the world and try to find more people to play with, and I'll want to adjust to what their preference is, or realistically have a few decks of varying level to play. It's the whole singleton thing and trying to aim for the right amount of consistency, and really just making sure the deck plays well. I'll show you what I mean. Here's my Teysa deck that I'm working on.
I've been testing it out with my friend on TTS and making small, iterative changes. This is about the budget I want to be at, although I do have some wiggle room. It's actually a little higher as listed than I'd have to spend, I have some of the cards already from some guild kits I'm willing to cannibalize from, like the Smothering Tithe, both Teysas, etc. So what I've mostly been concerned with is making sure I have enough sacrifice outlets, payoffs, card draw, etc. I started with EDHREC's average budget list, and one thing I noticed is that anything that requires you to spend mana to sac feels really bad! Sometimes you want to be able to play Teysa and just get a bunch of value off of her the same turn, or be able to threaten it if someone tries to remove her, and paying even 1 to sac something means you're just screwed, so I immediately determined that getting Ashnod's Altar and Spawning Pit were worth the spend.
What I'd like someone to double check is do I have the right ratio of enablers and payoffs, card draw to find those things, etc. I don't really need to be at the scary infinite combo level but I just want to make sure I'm not making any glaring mistakes so when I do play, it's not just me spinning my wheels hoping to find something to actually go off. Also, am I spending on the right stuff? I put in Massacre Wurm because it seems dope and cool but maybe that's $5 that would be better spent elsewhere? Yahenni, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, and Karmic Guide also seem super cool. Should I try to get Altar of Dementia in instead for another sac outlet?
Almost strict and cheap upgrades on cards you are running: Swords, Path, Felwar Stone, Exotic Orchard, Isolated Chapel and Concealed Courtyard ($3).
Gate to the Afterlife and the huge number of creatures that do nothing but make a body on death seem kinda pointless. Some of the latter are nice for going off, I suppose, but you mostly seem like you're gonna rely heavily on token beats.
Fumigate is kinda bad, there are tons of better orzhov wipes.
Dark Ritual goes in any deck, and in this deck Culling the Weak fits really well. Solemn Simulacrum also fits the deck well.
Whisper, Hidden Stockpile, Spirit Bonds, and Field of Souls seem too clunky or too bad to be worth playing. Priest of Forgotten Gods is more what you want, and stuff like Plaguebearer acts as decent removal for your deck as well.
Carrion Feeder should replace a 2+ CMC sac outlet.
The BBB enchantment is gonna be hard to cast with your manabase.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
Do people in here do commander? I picked up a couple of Ikoria commander decks because they looked interesting to support my FLGS and I've played some with my friend and it's pretty fun. I have some deck thoughts that I wouldn't mind more intelligent people looking over.
Commander is great. Through remember that it's a social format so you want to focus on decks that are "fun" for the entire table especially if you're playing multiplayer and risk getting targeted down by everyone else. Don't go too overboard with the power compared to everyone else if you're not willing to play 3v1.
This is kind of exactly the thing I'm trying to figure out. Obviously the target might change when covid is more dealt with and I can go out into the world and try to find more people to play with, and I'll want to adjust to what their preference is, or realistically have a few decks of varying level to play. It's the whole singleton thing and trying to aim for the right amount of consistency, and really just making sure the deck plays well. I'll show you what I mean. Here's my Teysa deck that I'm working on.
I've been testing it out with my friend on TTS and making small, iterative changes. This is about the budget I want to be at, although I do have some wiggle room. It's actually a little higher as listed than I'd have to spend, I have some of the cards already from some guild kits I'm willing to cannibalize from, like the Smothering Tithe, both Teysas, etc. So what I've mostly been concerned with is making sure I have enough sacrifice outlets, payoffs, card draw, etc. I started with EDHREC's average budget list, and one thing I noticed is that anything that requires you to spend mana to sac feels really bad! Sometimes you want to be able to play Teysa and just get a bunch of value off of her the same turn, or be able to threaten it if someone tries to remove her, and paying even 1 to sac something means you're just screwed, so I immediately determined that getting Ashnod's Altar and Spawning Pit were worth the spend.
What I'd like someone to double check is do I have the right ratio of enablers and payoffs, card draw to find those things, etc. I don't really need to be at the scary infinite combo level but I just want to make sure I'm not making any glaring mistakes so when I do play, it's not just me spinning my wheels hoping to find something to actually go off. Also, am I spending on the right stuff? I put in Massacre Wurm because it seems dope and cool but maybe that's $5 that would be better spent elsewhere? Yahenni, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, and Karmic Guide also seem super cool. Should I try to get Altar of Dementia in instead for another sac outlet?
Almost strict and cheap upgrades on cards you are running: Swords, Path, Felwar Stone, Exotic Orchard, Isolated Chapel and Concealed Courtyard ($3).
Gate to the Afterlife and the huge number of creatures that do nothing but make a body on death seem kinda pointless. Some of the latter are nice for going off, I suppose, but you mostly seem like you're gonna rely heavily on token beats.
Fumigate is kinda bad, there are tons of better orzhov wipes.
Dark Ritual goes in any deck, and in this deck Culling the Weak fits really well. Solemn Simulacrum also fits the deck well.
Whisper, Hidden Stockpile, Spirit Bonds, and Field of Souls seem too clunky or too bad to be worth playing. Priest of Forgotten Gods is more what you want, and stuff like Plaguebearer acts as decent removal for your deck as well.
Carrion Feeder should replace a 2+ CMC sac outlet.
The BBB enchantment is gonna be hard to cast with your manabase.
Swords or Path are probably fine subs for Dire Tactics. Both seems a little spendy. The lands I feel are mostly okay. I've been goldfishing it a lot and I'm not sure there's that much more advantage to really upgrading them to say, Courtyard.
I felt Gate was just a bunch of filtering for the deck to find what you need. Do you think it's worth cutting a lot of the token makers for other stuff? Where would I get the bodies to fuel my Blood Artists and whatnot though?
I kind of liked Fumigate for the ease of casting, something like Kaya's Wrath is going to be harder to cast. I've been thinking about maybe Dusk to Dawn, the wrath probably hits most things that I want and Dawn seems pretty great? It probably can't be my only Wrath.
Dark Rit is a no brainer and I do own some. Not sure what to trade for it though, could I cut a ramp card like Wayfarer's Bauble for it?
I liked Hidden since it gives a free body for something I wanted to do anyways and is a sac outlet at worst case scenario, but I guess a 1/1 token per turn is probably not worth the card. Spirit Bonds and Whisper I felt were ways to protect or recur Teysa instead of having to recast her. Edit: Phyrexian Reclamation > Whisper seems like a no brainer.
Carrion Feeder was initially in but I felt the ability to pump it was maybe not the most useful thing. I think I took it out for Woe Strider? The goats are an amusing combo with Massacre Wurm and escape is relevant for recovering from a wipe or something. Maybe the Spawning Pit or Cartel Aristocrat? Replace instead of add is also relevant, you think the number of enablers is correct?
I figured Dark Prophecy is just so ridiculously good even if I cast it on 5 or 6 so who cares because it's pure gas?
Thanks, though, this was really helpful!
Edit again: Jeez Athreos is kind of stupid good? I should probably cut the Wurm for that? If someone gets on low health and I can bully them with that I basically just win the game?
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
hehe one time I had Athreos out, and one of my opponents had Platinum Emperion. Every time one of my creatures died I just picked him to pay the 3 life, and he couldn't because his life total couldn't change.
Do people in here do commander? I picked up a couple of Ikoria commander decks because they looked interesting to support my FLGS and I've played some with my friend and it's pretty fun. I have some deck thoughts that I wouldn't mind more intelligent people looking over.
Commander is great. Through remember that it's a social format so you want to focus on decks that are "fun" for the entire table especially if you're playing multiplayer and risk getting targeted down by everyone else. Don't go too overboard with the power compared to everyone else if you're not willing to play 3v1.
This is kind of exactly the thing I'm trying to figure out. Obviously the target might change when covid is more dealt with and I can go out into the world and try to find more people to play with, and I'll want to adjust to what their preference is, or realistically have a few decks of varying level to play. It's the whole singleton thing and trying to aim for the right amount of consistency, and really just making sure the deck plays well. I'll show you what I mean. Here's my Teysa deck that I'm working on.
I've been testing it out with my friend on TTS and making small, iterative changes. This is about the budget I want to be at, although I do have some wiggle room. It's actually a little higher as listed than I'd have to spend, I have some of the cards already from some guild kits I'm willing to cannibalize from, like the Smothering Tithe, both Teysas, etc. So what I've mostly been concerned with is making sure I have enough sacrifice outlets, payoffs, card draw, etc. I started with EDHREC's average budget list, and one thing I noticed is that anything that requires you to spend mana to sac feels really bad! Sometimes you want to be able to play Teysa and just get a bunch of value off of her the same turn, or be able to threaten it if someone tries to remove her, and paying even 1 to sac something means you're just screwed, so I immediately determined that getting Ashnod's Altar and Spawning Pit were worth the spend.
What I'd like someone to double check is do I have the right ratio of enablers and payoffs, card draw to find those things, etc. I don't really need to be at the scary infinite combo level but I just want to make sure I'm not making any glaring mistakes so when I do play, it's not just me spinning my wheels hoping to find something to actually go off. Also, am I spending on the right stuff? I put in Massacre Wurm because it seems dope and cool but maybe that's $5 that would be better spent elsewhere? Yahenni, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, and Karmic Guide also seem super cool. Should I try to get Altar of Dementia in instead for another sac outlet?
1v1 commander is honestly a bit different from what I'm used to in a 4 player game. There's a different ebb and flow to 1v1 that I don't know as well so most of this advice is going to be directed if you want to convert it more for multiplayer.
1) Needs more interaction, You're doing what I do with my early drafts of a list, focusing on the cool stuff that you can do rather than stopping your opponent from doing cool stuff. The problem is that with 4 evenly matched decks in a commander game, you're going not going to have the upper hand more than 25% of the time and you'll need to be able to stop whatever broken thing that your opponents are doing so that your deck has time to do its broken thing. That means removal/wraths to reset the board. Some of my cheap favorites in B/W are Kaya's Wrath, Utter End, Phyrexian Rebirth, Crush Contraband, Cleansing Nova. I would be wary doing into any game without access to 4+ board resets through this is going to depend on what your meta is like. If everyone else is winning via combo then you don't need wraths that much but most decks depend on playing on creatures to win.
2) Low powered cards that depend on synergy. You're not always going to be living in magic Christmas land, people are going to target your creatures, blow up your enchantments and sometimes you'll simply not draw the cards that you need. I tend to shy away from other cards that need something else to be good e.g Martyr of Dusk. Commander is about going big (with style!) and each card needs to be impactful. I tend to look at each card and think, am I ever going to topdeck this card and think to myself "Wow, this is going to win me the game". Your deck needs a supply of small creatures to get value from but I'd think about going a bit higher on the mana curve for more impactful cards.
3) Some gems that you might have overlooked if you want to raise your deck's power level. Shiekmaw (can be sacked when invoked), Bone Shredder, Helm of Possession (pricy but very oppressive when you have unlimited fodder) Puppeteer Clique (there's always going to be something worth stealing), Chittering Witch, Dusk // Dawn, Proclamation of Rebirth,
Hope this is helpful.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
This is super helpful!
So it seems like my random assortment of dorks who make tokens aren't the best, but if my goal is to throw a bunch of bodies into a woodchipper of pain and turbo ping down my enemies where am I going to get all those bodies from? What creatures should I use and what density do I need to start going off? Should I try to make more tokeny bodies through say, enchantments? Reducing the number of creatures would give me a lot of room to add that removal.
Keep in mind I'm not trying to make it outrageously more expensive than it is now. If I could keep the total to $100ish that would be about my range with the stuff I already own.
Do people in here do commander? I picked up a couple of Ikoria commander decks because they looked interesting to support my FLGS and I've played some with my friend and it's pretty fun. I have some deck thoughts that I wouldn't mind more intelligent people looking over.
Commander is great. Through remember that it's a social format so you want to focus on decks that are "fun" for the entire table especially if you're playing multiplayer and risk getting targeted down by everyone else. Don't go too overboard with the power compared to everyone else if you're not willing to play 3v1.
This is kind of exactly the thing I'm trying to figure out. Obviously the target might change when covid is more dealt with and I can go out into the world and try to find more people to play with, and I'll want to adjust to what their preference is, or realistically have a few decks of varying level to play. It's the whole singleton thing and trying to aim for the right amount of consistency, and really just making sure the deck plays well. I'll show you what I mean. Here's my Teysa deck that I'm working on.
I've been testing it out with my friend on TTS and making small, iterative changes. This is about the budget I want to be at, although I do have some wiggle room. It's actually a little higher as listed than I'd have to spend, I have some of the cards already from some guild kits I'm willing to cannibalize from, like the Smothering Tithe, both Teysas, etc. So what I've mostly been concerned with is making sure I have enough sacrifice outlets, payoffs, card draw, etc. I started with EDHREC's average budget list, and one thing I noticed is that anything that requires you to spend mana to sac feels really bad! Sometimes you want to be able to play Teysa and just get a bunch of value off of her the same turn, or be able to threaten it if someone tries to remove her, and paying even 1 to sac something means you're just screwed, so I immediately determined that getting Ashnod's Altar and Spawning Pit were worth the spend.
What I'd like someone to double check is do I have the right ratio of enablers and payoffs, card draw to find those things, etc. I don't really need to be at the scary infinite combo level but I just want to make sure I'm not making any glaring mistakes so when I do play, it's not just me spinning my wheels hoping to find something to actually go off. Also, am I spending on the right stuff? I put in Massacre Wurm because it seems dope and cool but maybe that's $5 that would be better spent elsewhere? Yahenni, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, and Karmic Guide also seem super cool. Should I try to get Altar of Dementia in instead for another sac outlet?
Almost strict and cheap upgrades on cards you are running: Swords, Path, Felwar Stone, Exotic Orchard, Isolated Chapel and Concealed Courtyard ($3).
Gate to the Afterlife and the huge number of creatures that do nothing but make a body on death seem kinda pointless. Some of the latter are nice for going off, I suppose, but you mostly seem like you're gonna rely heavily on token beats.
Fumigate is kinda bad, there are tons of better orzhov wipes.
Dark Ritual goes in any deck, and in this deck Culling the Weak fits really well. Solemn Simulacrum also fits the deck well.
Whisper, Hidden Stockpile, Spirit Bonds, and Field of Souls seem too clunky or too bad to be worth playing. Priest of Forgotten Gods is more what you want, and stuff like Plaguebearer acts as decent removal for your deck as well.
Carrion Feeder should replace a 2+ CMC sac outlet.
The BBB enchantment is gonna be hard to cast with your manabase.
Swords or Path are probably fine subs for Dire Tactics. Both seems a little spendy. The lands I feel are mostly okay. I've been goldfishing it a lot and I'm not sure there's that much more advantage to really upgrading them to say, Courtyard.
I felt Gate was just a bunch of filtering for the deck to find what you need. Do you think it's worth cutting a lot of the token makers for other stuff? Where would I get the bodies to fuel my Blood Artists and whatnot though?
I kind of liked Fumigate for the ease of casting, something like Kaya's Wrath is going to be harder to cast. I've been thinking about maybe Dusk to Dawn, the wrath probably hits most things that I want and Dawn seems pretty great? It probably can't be my only Wrath.
Dark Rit is a no brainer and I do own some. Not sure what to trade for it though, could I cut a ramp card like Wayfarer's Bauble for it?
I liked Hidden since it gives a free body for something I wanted to do anyways and is a sac outlet at worst case scenario, but I guess a 1/1 token per turn is probably not worth the card. Spirit Bonds and Whisper I felt were ways to protect or recur Teysa instead of having to recast her. Edit: Phyrexian Reclamation > Whisper seems like a no brainer.
Carrion Feeder was initially in but I felt the ability to pump it was maybe not the most useful thing. I think I took it out for Woe Strider? The goats are an amusing combo with Massacre Wurm and escape is relevant for recovering from a wipe or something. Maybe the Spawning Pit or Cartel Aristocrat? Replace instead of add is also relevant, you think the number of enablers is correct?
I figured Dark Prophecy is just so ridiculously good even if I cast it on 5 or 6 so who cares because it's pure gas?
Thanks, though, this was really helpful!
Edit again: Jeez Athreos is kind of stupid good? I should probably cut the Wurm for that? If someone gets on low health and I can bully them with that I basically just win the game?
So it seems like my random assortment of dorks who make tokens aren't the best, but if my goal is to throw a bunch of bodies into a woodchipper of pain and turbo ping down my enemies where am I going to get all those bodies from? What creatures should I use and what density do I need to start going off? Should I try to make more tokeny bodies through say, enchantments? Reducing the number of creatures would give me a lot of room to add that removal.
Keep in mind I'm not trying to make it outrageously more expensive than it is now. If I could keep the total to $100ish that would be about my range with the stuff I already own.
Lands are always important and ignoring lands is generally a bad thing. Tapped lands are a massive tempo hit and you're running 30% taplands. Swords and path (and lightning greaves) are better options, though I guess path is a somewhat expensive card given this is pretty ultra-budget. You don't really want to pay a premium for filtering in EDH, you want raw card advantage; stuff like Sign in Blood or recursion spells are going to be better the vast majority of the time unless you absolutely want your graveyard full, but you don't. Spirit Bonds and Whisper are bad ways to protect/recur Teysa because they're mana-intensive or tempo poor; you can easily find something that gives free cheaper protection or that can recur a creature for 4 mana or less without needing two bodies to sacrifice. Carrion Feeder is better because having 1 CMC sacrifice outlets that are free is very good, and a 2-CMC body that just protects itself by sacrificing is almost always worse.
The issue is that aristocrats decks are extremely commonly played and most of the good outlets, even for token beats + draining, are expensive for a $100 budget. Secure the Wastes, Elenda the Dusk Rose, Mikaeus the Unhallowed, Razaketh the Foulbooded, and Nim Deathmantle are all cards that let you effectively win the game off just a few tokens and Ashnod's Altar and any payoff. Even less instant-win cards like Hangerback Walker, Kokusho the Evening Star, Yawgmoth, Sheoldred, Cathar's Crusade, Divine Visitation, etc. are all expensive. When you're cutting budget, you lose access to a lot of the flashy effects that let you win and you're left playing the a lot of really underwhelming bodies.
Comparatively, some decks are much easier to build on total ultrabudget. Gargos can't run a lot of good ramp, sure, but a hydras deck with a huge discount in the command zone can still go very far and run a lot of extremely strong power-matters card advantage engines in green. Certain archetypes are extremely well-trod in Commander and become extremely expensive as a result.
I would like to share with you the stupidest turn 2 I think I've yet pulled off in Vintage Cube on MTGO. Note, that I was on the play here, my opponent only had the (tapped) Hallowed Fountain in play.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
edited July 2020
So sure, lands are super important, I'm not really debating that, it just seems like a two color deck doesn't need it as much and it's 1 out of 99 cards so like, is it actually gonna give me $5 of utility over a tap land? If the tap lands are too deleterious like, I could just run 38 basics and I bet it would be fine most of the time? The mana rocks are cheap enough and could fix mana for me too.
I don't have a problem taking a favored deck over time and building it up there, I just don't have $200+ to drop on the deck all at once to get it to some optimal play pattern. I don't know that I would want to without playing the deck a lot just to make sure I really, really like it and it's worth that investment I'm not really going to get the same value out of the deck as I put in if I decide I want to liquidate and put it into something else so I should be relatively certain. There has to be some sort of optimal for my budget, and I'm okay with that and also telling prospective strangers I play with that this is the power band I'm operating. If the tiny dorks are the best I can do then I guess I'm alright with that!
I also get Nim Deathmantle is crazy good and even at my budget it's the kind of card that's probably worth cutting other shit to make it fit within that defined budget but it's kind of TOO powerful for what I'd want to play. Going infinite or whatever doesn't seem particularly fun or rewarding to me since then the game starts revolving around putting that combo into play and just auto winning. What I've always liked about Aristocrats or like, Astral Slide back in the day was recurring many small effects that add up to value that is more than the sum of their parts. That's what's so appealing to me about Teysa. Sure, no one effect is so big, but doubling all those effects? That's impactful.
Also it seems like basically any theme/strategy is popular enough to where anything that isn't "ultra budget" would be probably pretty awful. I'm sure you could find five $20 cards to go in most decks under $500 that would make them better. I get that this is a format where decks easily run into the multiple hundreds or thousands and like, that's fine. Maybe in ten years I'll slowly accumulate that, and realistically Wizards' terrible reprint policy might just make my deck worth that much if I do nothing at all (seriously, some commander's quarters decks from a year ago have doubled in value).
I don't want you to feel like I'm attacking you or that I'm mad at the advice. I really do appreciate the help, it just seems like the advice is "spend more money." I'm already investing $100 dollars to play the game, at what point is it enough to have something that's good enough to have fun with and how close is that point to "I could save for a PS5 instead?"
My personal budget preference for commander is that I won't spend more than $2 for a card unless I know I will play that card in my deck and possibly more decks later. If a card costs >$10, I'll just proxy it and definitely try to find another cheaper card that's almost as good. I don't like playing with proxies but none of my friends have ever cared that the grave pact in my Marchesa, the Black Rose deck is a proxy.
I think in your case, there's no need to spend or make proxies of expensive cards. Make your deck first with whatever budget cards you order and then when you see it play you can swap cards in and out. You won't know unless you try it out and there's no reason to buy expensive cards right away. For your specific deck, I think 30-35 creatures is good as that your main theme is having those creatures die and get value. If this was my deck, I would make the following changes but remember that I am not you and you should go with the cards that you like rather that just what other people think is "good".
- Pitless Plunderer (too pricey for it's effect)
- Doomed Deserter
- Imperious Oligarch
- Martyr of Dusk (All these feel too low impact and are replaced with other creatures)
- Swiftfoot boots (you don't depend on your commander. It's nice to have her out but your deck works without her so don't need a card solely to protect her)
- Massacre Wurm (cool card but had to cut something and it's somewhat pricey)
- Costly Plunder (Replaced by Read the Bones/Siphon Mind)
- Gate to the Afterlife (Replaced by Read the Bones/Siphon Mind)
- Final Payment ( Replaced by Dire Tactics, exile effects are better)
- Spirit Bonds (Somewhat awkward to hold mana up for this)
- Dark Prophecy (Hated to cut this but it's harder to cast and it doesn't advance your gameplan by itself)
+ Shriekmaw
+ Chittering Witch
+ Ravenous Chupacabra
+ Seraph of the Scales
+ Corpse Knight
+ Dusk // Dawn
+ Read the Bones
+ Siphon Mind
+ Dire Tactics
+ Rally the Ancestors
Keeps roughly the same ratio of creatures through I really tried hard to find space for Debt to the Deathless. If you win with this deck, it's not going to be by attacking your opponent. It's going be by draining them little at a time until you hit a big burst of drain effects and suddenly they're all dead. I have lost so many times to Debt to the Deathless out of nowhere that it should probably be included but I don't know what to cut. I've also tried to cut the more pricey cards that I felt were not necessary while replacing them with budget options.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
The $2 rule is a really good yardstick. Thinking about things in terms of whether or not they will have value in other decks is a great way to hedge against the deck/commander not being what I wanted, or even if it just gets stale or I want a change of pace down the road. I always figured I would end up proxying some things, especially in the case of trying out something expensive before buying, or more probably for lands. I doubt I will buy any fetches, much less multiple redundant copies to use in other decks.
The rest of these changes are good insights! It seems like a theme in some of the card draw replacement is stuff that can fire when I don't have bodies to trade which is probably a good idea, I need something to get me stuff when I don't have anything. The Shriekmaw and Chupacabra are great ways to fit bodies and removal so that also seems like a no brainer. Increasing individual creature value also improves Rally the Ancestors. I may try to go a little out of my way to keep the Wurm because it is so friggin cool but I'm not sure it does pass the $2 test.
So sure, lands are super important, I'm not really debating that, it just seems like a two color deck doesn't need it as much and it's 1 out of 99 cards so like, is it actually gonna give me $5 of utility over a tap land? If the tap lands are too deleterious like, I could just run 38 basics and I bet it would be fine most of the time? The mana rocks are cheap enough and could fix mana for me too.
I don't have a problem taking a favored deck over time and building it up there, I just don't have $200+ to drop on the deck all at once to get it to some optimal play pattern. I don't know that I would want to without playing the deck a lot just to make sure I really, really like it and it's worth that investment I'm not really going to get the same value out of the deck as I put in if I decide I want to liquidate and put it into something else so I should be relatively certain. There has to be some sort of optimal for my budget, and I'm okay with that and also telling prospective strangers I play with that this is the power band I'm operating. If the tiny dorks are the best I can do then I guess I'm alright with that!
I also get Nim Deathmantle is crazy good and even at my budget it's the kind of card that's probably worth cutting other shit to make it fit within that defined budget but it's kind of TOO powerful for what I'd want to play. Going infinite or whatever doesn't seem particularly fun or rewarding to me since then the game starts revolving around putting that combo into play and just auto winning. What I've always liked about Aristocrats or like, Astral Slide back in the day was recurring many small effects that add up to value that is more than the sum of their parts. That's what's so appealing to me about Teysa. Sure, no one effect is so big, but doubling all those effects? That's impactful.
Also it seems like basically any theme/strategy is popular enough to where anything that isn't "ultra budget" would be probably pretty awful. I'm sure you could find five $20 cards to go in most decks under $500 that would make them better. I get that this is a format where decks easily run into the multiple hundreds or thousands and like, that's fine. Maybe in ten years I'll slowly accumulate that, and realistically Wizards' terrible reprint policy might just make my deck worth that much if I do nothing at all (seriously, some commander's quarters decks from a year ago have doubled in value).
I don't want you to feel like I'm attacking you or that I'm mad at the advice. I really do appreciate the help, it just seems like the advice is "spend more money." I'm already investing $100 dollars to play the game, at what point is it enough to have something that's good enough to have fun with and how close is that point to "I could save for a PS5 instead?"
Just proxy cards, it's Commander. It's not a big deal, and there's absolutely a range between "proxying a busted deck" and "running standard aggro weenies because they have a death trigger" where you can access effects that work how you want them. That's why I specifically called out cards with value that aren't autowins and did not suggest any tutors.
Also, if you don't want to run or threaten infinites, don't play Ashnod's Altar. Nobody will ever believe it's just for value and they will be 100% justified in assuming the second you cast it, you're priority threat #1. You can't run the most busted enablers and expect people to trust that your deck just isn't good enough to use it.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
edited July 2020
I mean basically any free sac outlet will probably suffer from that issue, and the power level difference between free and even 1 mana cost is super high no matter what you're attempting to do.
I mean basically any free sac outlet will probably suffer from that issue, and the power level difference between free and even 1 mana cost is super high no matter what you're attempting to do.
No. Ashnod's Altar generates insane amounts of mana. It is not a free sac outlet, it is an absurd ramp piece that also sacrifices creatures. Trust me when I say nobody cares if the Aristocrats deck has a Carrion Feeder out without other setup available, and they immediately assume you can win the game with an Ashnod's Altar out.
I mean basically any free sac outlet will probably suffer from that issue, and the power level difference between free and even 1 mana cost is super high no matter what you're attempting to do.
No. Ashnod's Altar generates insane amounts of mana. It is not a free sac outlet, it is an absurd ramp piece that also sacrifices creatures. Trust me when I say nobody cares if the Aristocrats deck has a Carrion Feeder out without other setup available, and they immediately assume you can win the game with an Ashnod's Altar out.
Ashnod's Altar and its friend Phyrexian Altar are involved in a lot of infinite mana combos. I won't say I'd kill a player with Ashnod's altar on sight but I'd be wary of them, especially if I didn't have any instant speed disruption.
I mean basically any free sac outlet will probably suffer from that issue, and the power level difference between free and even 1 mana cost is super high no matter what you're attempting to do.
No. Ashnod's Altar generates insane amounts of mana. It is not a free sac outlet, it is an absurd ramp piece that also sacrifices creatures. Trust me when I say nobody cares if the Aristocrats deck has a Carrion Feeder out without other setup available, and they immediately assume you can win the game with an Ashnod's Altar out.
Ashnod's Altar and its friend Phyrexian Altar are involved in a lot of infinite mana combos. I won't say I'd kill a player with Ashnod's altar on sight but I'd be wary of them, especially if I didn't have any instant speed disruption.
To be clear, I don't think it would justify player kill-on-sight, but Ashnod's/Phyrexian almost always justify the tempo loss of blowing removal on them and/or holding up mana to answer whatever payoff gets played. And even when used just "for value", they tend to allow casting absurd spells.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
yeah if you just want a free sacrifice outlet, something like Woe Strider or Viscera Seer is a lot less threatening than one of the Altars.
Also, to be clear, the Teysa deck presented is not broken. Ashnod's Altar really is just a value piece there without that many relevant payoffs. It is totally fine, on a power level, with the lack of powerful/infinite ways to utilize the mana in the deck.
But Commander is a game where perception matters a lot, and Ashnod's Altar (and Phyrexian Altar) is the kind of card that only gets played in certain power level pods and signals very strongly that your deck is at least that good, even if it actually isn't.
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
I mean I could probably just swap the Ashnod's for Altar of Dementia and sidestep most issues then? I know it's possible to go infinite that way but the mana outlet is probably much more valuable.
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I think Kaya would work well with a lot of exile effects.
Why would you need Ugin +2 as a wincon when Ugin -x exists?
Honestly do you really need a wincon outside these?
If I were gonna run Kaya in this (and it's a good suggestion) I think I'd also go for Karn's Bastion to speed up her ultimate a turn. It also does amusing things with Fall of the Thran...
zero surprises honestly, except inverter dodging another banning
pioneer is gonna wither on the vine
"Good news everyone! We're retiring the UNPLAYED Pioneer format, and adding the MUCH MORE POPULAR* Historic format to MTGO!"
*According to our data.
How come MTGO gets updated the same day, but Arena has to wait. Especially since they can do quick updates before with the quick Winota suspension.
Steam: YOU FACE JARAXXUS| Twitch.tv: CainLoveless
Yeah, BTE is just nuts in a format where the strongest aggro three drops both work based on devotion.
I think it requires a patch on MtGA + wildcards being given out, and unscheduled MtGA patches suck.
I luuuuuuurrv commander
Commander is great. Through remember that it's a social format so you want to focus on decks that are "fun" for the entire table especially if you're playing multiplayer and risk getting targeted down by everyone else. Don't go too overboard with the power compared to everyone else if you're not willing to play 3v1.
This is kind of exactly the thing I'm trying to figure out. Obviously the target might change when covid is more dealt with and I can go out into the world and try to find more people to play with, and I'll want to adjust to what their preference is, or realistically have a few decks of varying level to play. It's the whole singleton thing and trying to aim for the right amount of consistency, and really just making sure the deck plays well. I'll show you what I mean. Here's my Teysa deck that I'm working on.
I've been testing it out with my friend on TTS and making small, iterative changes. This is about the budget I want to be at, although I do have some wiggle room. It's actually a little higher as listed than I'd have to spend, I have some of the cards already from some guild kits I'm willing to cannibalize from, like the Smothering Tithe, both Teysas, etc. So what I've mostly been concerned with is making sure I have enough sacrifice outlets, payoffs, card draw, etc. I started with EDHREC's average budget list, and one thing I noticed is that anything that requires you to spend mana to sac feels really bad! Sometimes you want to be able to play Teysa and just get a bunch of value off of her the same turn, or be able to threaten it if someone tries to remove her, and paying even 1 to sac something means you're just screwed, so I immediately determined that getting Ashnod's Altar and Spawning Pit were worth the spend.
What I'd like someone to double check is do I have the right ratio of enablers and payoffs, card draw to find those things, etc. I don't really need to be at the scary infinite combo level but I just want to make sure I'm not making any glaring mistakes so when I do play, it's not just me spinning my wheels hoping to find something to actually go off. Also, am I spending on the right stuff? I put in Massacre Wurm because it seems dope and cool but maybe that's $5 that would be better spent elsewhere? Yahenni, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, and Karmic Guide also seem super cool. Should I try to get Altar of Dementia in instead for another sac outlet?
Sorin might be good, also that new Idol from 2021 could be a nice fit too.
Steam ID: Obos Vent: Obos
Oh, I do have Reveillark, for what that's worth.
Almost strict and cheap upgrades on cards you are running: Swords, Path, Felwar Stone, Exotic Orchard, Isolated Chapel and Concealed Courtyard ($3).
Gate to the Afterlife and the huge number of creatures that do nothing but make a body on death seem kinda pointless. Some of the latter are nice for going off, I suppose, but you mostly seem like you're gonna rely heavily on token beats.
Fumigate is kinda bad, there are tons of better orzhov wipes.
Dark Ritual goes in any deck, and in this deck Culling the Weak fits really well. Solemn Simulacrum also fits the deck well.
Whisper, Hidden Stockpile, Spirit Bonds, and Field of Souls seem too clunky or too bad to be worth playing. Priest of Forgotten Gods is more what you want, and stuff like Plaguebearer acts as decent removal for your deck as well.
Carrion Feeder should replace a 2+ CMC sac outlet.
The BBB enchantment is gonna be hard to cast with your manabase.
Swords or Path are probably fine subs for Dire Tactics. Both seems a little spendy. The lands I feel are mostly okay. I've been goldfishing it a lot and I'm not sure there's that much more advantage to really upgrading them to say, Courtyard.
I felt Gate was just a bunch of filtering for the deck to find what you need. Do you think it's worth cutting a lot of the token makers for other stuff? Where would I get the bodies to fuel my Blood Artists and whatnot though?
I kind of liked Fumigate for the ease of casting, something like Kaya's Wrath is going to be harder to cast. I've been thinking about maybe Dusk to Dawn, the wrath probably hits most things that I want and Dawn seems pretty great? It probably can't be my only Wrath.
Dark Rit is a no brainer and I do own some. Not sure what to trade for it though, could I cut a ramp card like Wayfarer's Bauble for it?
I liked Hidden since it gives a free body for something I wanted to do anyways and is a sac outlet at worst case scenario, but I guess a 1/1 token per turn is probably not worth the card. Spirit Bonds and Whisper I felt were ways to protect or recur Teysa instead of having to recast her. Edit: Phyrexian Reclamation > Whisper seems like a no brainer.
Carrion Feeder was initially in but I felt the ability to pump it was maybe not the most useful thing. I think I took it out for Woe Strider? The goats are an amusing combo with Massacre Wurm and escape is relevant for recovering from a wipe or something. Maybe the Spawning Pit or Cartel Aristocrat? Replace instead of add is also relevant, you think the number of enablers is correct?
I figured Dark Prophecy is just so ridiculously good even if I cast it on 5 or 6 so who cares because it's pure gas?
Thanks, though, this was really helpful!
Edit again: Jeez Athreos is kind of stupid good? I should probably cut the Wurm for that? If someone gets on low health and I can bully them with that I basically just win the game?
1v1 commander is honestly a bit different from what I'm used to in a 4 player game. There's a different ebb and flow to 1v1 that I don't know as well so most of this advice is going to be directed if you want to convert it more for multiplayer.
1) Needs more interaction, You're doing what I do with my early drafts of a list, focusing on the cool stuff that you can do rather than stopping your opponent from doing cool stuff. The problem is that with 4 evenly matched decks in a commander game, you're going not going to have the upper hand more than 25% of the time and you'll need to be able to stop whatever broken thing that your opponents are doing so that your deck has time to do its broken thing. That means removal/wraths to reset the board. Some of my cheap favorites in B/W are Kaya's Wrath, Utter End, Phyrexian Rebirth, Crush Contraband, Cleansing Nova. I would be wary doing into any game without access to 4+ board resets through this is going to depend on what your meta is like. If everyone else is winning via combo then you don't need wraths that much but most decks depend on playing on creatures to win.
2) Low powered cards that depend on synergy. You're not always going to be living in magic Christmas land, people are going to target your creatures, blow up your enchantments and sometimes you'll simply not draw the cards that you need. I tend to shy away from other cards that need something else to be good e.g Martyr of Dusk. Commander is about going big (with style!) and each card needs to be impactful. I tend to look at each card and think, am I ever going to topdeck this card and think to myself "Wow, this is going to win me the game". Your deck needs a supply of small creatures to get value from but I'd think about going a bit higher on the mana curve for more impactful cards.
3) Some gems that you might have overlooked if you want to raise your deck's power level. Shiekmaw (can be sacked when invoked), Bone Shredder, Helm of Possession (pricy but very oppressive when you have unlimited fodder) Puppeteer Clique (there's always going to be something worth stealing), Chittering Witch, Dusk // Dawn, Proclamation of Rebirth,
Hope this is helpful.
So it seems like my random assortment of dorks who make tokens aren't the best, but if my goal is to throw a bunch of bodies into a woodchipper of pain and turbo ping down my enemies where am I going to get all those bodies from? What creatures should I use and what density do I need to start going off? Should I try to make more tokeny bodies through say, enchantments? Reducing the number of creatures would give me a lot of room to add that removal.
Keep in mind I'm not trying to make it outrageously more expensive than it is now. If I could keep the total to $100ish that would be about my range with the stuff I already own.
Lands are always important and ignoring lands is generally a bad thing. Tapped lands are a massive tempo hit and you're running 30% taplands. Swords and path (and lightning greaves) are better options, though I guess path is a somewhat expensive card given this is pretty ultra-budget. You don't really want to pay a premium for filtering in EDH, you want raw card advantage; stuff like Sign in Blood or recursion spells are going to be better the vast majority of the time unless you absolutely want your graveyard full, but you don't. Spirit Bonds and Whisper are bad ways to protect/recur Teysa because they're mana-intensive or tempo poor; you can easily find something that gives free cheaper protection or that can recur a creature for 4 mana or less without needing two bodies to sacrifice. Carrion Feeder is better because having 1 CMC sacrifice outlets that are free is very good, and a 2-CMC body that just protects itself by sacrificing is almost always worse.
The issue is that aristocrats decks are extremely commonly played and most of the good outlets, even for token beats + draining, are expensive for a $100 budget. Secure the Wastes, Elenda the Dusk Rose, Mikaeus the Unhallowed, Razaketh the Foulbooded, and Nim Deathmantle are all cards that let you effectively win the game off just a few tokens and Ashnod's Altar and any payoff. Even less instant-win cards like Hangerback Walker, Kokusho the Evening Star, Yawgmoth, Sheoldred, Cathar's Crusade, Divine Visitation, etc. are all expensive. When you're cutting budget, you lose access to a lot of the flashy effects that let you win and you're left playing the a lot of really underwhelming bodies.
I don't have a problem taking a favored deck over time and building it up there, I just don't have $200+ to drop on the deck all at once to get it to some optimal play pattern. I don't know that I would want to without playing the deck a lot just to make sure I really, really like it and it's worth that investment I'm not really going to get the same value out of the deck as I put in if I decide I want to liquidate and put it into something else so I should be relatively certain. There has to be some sort of optimal for my budget, and I'm okay with that and also telling prospective strangers I play with that this is the power band I'm operating. If the tiny dorks are the best I can do then I guess I'm alright with that!
I also get Nim Deathmantle is crazy good and even at my budget it's the kind of card that's probably worth cutting other shit to make it fit within that defined budget but it's kind of TOO powerful for what I'd want to play. Going infinite or whatever doesn't seem particularly fun or rewarding to me since then the game starts revolving around putting that combo into play and just auto winning. What I've always liked about Aristocrats or like, Astral Slide back in the day was recurring many small effects that add up to value that is more than the sum of their parts. That's what's so appealing to me about Teysa. Sure, no one effect is so big, but doubling all those effects? That's impactful.
Also it seems like basically any theme/strategy is popular enough to where anything that isn't "ultra budget" would be probably pretty awful. I'm sure you could find five $20 cards to go in most decks under $500 that would make them better. I get that this is a format where decks easily run into the multiple hundreds or thousands and like, that's fine. Maybe in ten years I'll slowly accumulate that, and realistically Wizards' terrible reprint policy might just make my deck worth that much if I do nothing at all (seriously, some commander's quarters decks from a year ago have doubled in value).
I don't want you to feel like I'm attacking you or that I'm mad at the advice. I really do appreciate the help, it just seems like the advice is "spend more money." I'm already investing $100 dollars to play the game, at what point is it enough to have something that's good enough to have fun with and how close is that point to "I could save for a PS5 instead?"
I think in your case, there's no need to spend or make proxies of expensive cards. Make your deck first with whatever budget cards you order and then when you see it play you can swap cards in and out. You won't know unless you try it out and there's no reason to buy expensive cards right away. For your specific deck, I think 30-35 creatures is good as that your main theme is having those creatures die and get value. If this was my deck, I would make the following changes but remember that I am not you and you should go with the cards that you like rather that just what other people think is "good".
- Pitless Plunderer (too pricey for it's effect)
- Doomed Deserter
- Imperious Oligarch
- Martyr of Dusk (All these feel too low impact and are replaced with other creatures)
- Swiftfoot boots (you don't depend on your commander. It's nice to have her out but your deck works without her so don't need a card solely to protect her)
- Massacre Wurm (cool card but had to cut something and it's somewhat pricey)
- Costly Plunder (Replaced by Read the Bones/Siphon Mind)
- Gate to the Afterlife (Replaced by Read the Bones/Siphon Mind)
- Final Payment ( Replaced by Dire Tactics, exile effects are better)
- Spirit Bonds (Somewhat awkward to hold mana up for this)
- Dark Prophecy (Hated to cut this but it's harder to cast and it doesn't advance your gameplan by itself)
+ Shriekmaw
+ Chittering Witch
+ Ravenous Chupacabra
+ Seraph of the Scales
+ Corpse Knight
+ Dusk // Dawn
+ Read the Bones
+ Siphon Mind
+ Dire Tactics
+ Rally the Ancestors
Keeps roughly the same ratio of creatures through I really tried hard to find space for Debt to the Deathless. If you win with this deck, it's not going to be by attacking your opponent. It's going be by draining them little at a time until you hit a big burst of drain effects and suddenly they're all dead. I have lost so many times to Debt to the Deathless out of nowhere that it should probably be included but I don't know what to cut. I've also tried to cut the more pricey cards that I felt were not necessary while replacing them with budget options.
The rest of these changes are good insights! It seems like a theme in some of the card draw replacement is stuff that can fire when I don't have bodies to trade which is probably a good idea, I need something to get me stuff when I don't have anything. The Shriekmaw and Chupacabra are great ways to fit bodies and removal so that also seems like a no brainer. Increasing individual creature value also improves Rally the Ancestors. I may try to go a little out of my way to keep the Wurm because it is so friggin cool but I'm not sure it does pass the $2 test.
Thanks a lot!
Just proxy cards, it's Commander. It's not a big deal, and there's absolutely a range between "proxying a busted deck" and "running standard aggro weenies because they have a death trigger" where you can access effects that work how you want them. That's why I specifically called out cards with value that aren't autowins and did not suggest any tutors.
Also, if you don't want to run or threaten infinites, don't play Ashnod's Altar. Nobody will ever believe it's just for value and they will be 100% justified in assuming the second you cast it, you're priority threat #1. You can't run the most busted enablers and expect people to trust that your deck just isn't good enough to use it.
No. Ashnod's Altar generates insane amounts of mana. It is not a free sac outlet, it is an absurd ramp piece that also sacrifices creatures. Trust me when I say nobody cares if the Aristocrats deck has a Carrion Feeder out without other setup available, and they immediately assume you can win the game with an Ashnod's Altar out.
Ashnod's Altar and its friend Phyrexian Altar are involved in a lot of infinite mana combos. I won't say I'd kill a player with Ashnod's altar on sight but I'd be wary of them, especially if I didn't have any instant speed disruption.
To be clear, I don't think it would justify player kill-on-sight, but Ashnod's/Phyrexian almost always justify the tempo loss of blowing removal on them and/or holding up mana to answer whatever payoff gets played. And even when used just "for value", they tend to allow casting absurd spells.
But Commander is a game where perception matters a lot, and Ashnod's Altar (and Phyrexian Altar) is the kind of card that only gets played in certain power level pods and signals very strongly that your deck is at least that good, even if it actually isn't.
Depending on which Jhoira you're talking about, about 85 shit cards and a couple of payoffs is a solid, if fragile, deck. Scramble them eggs!