Has there been a standard with a banlist this long before?
No, though as noted in their announcement, they are intentionally banning more aggressively because Magic is basically high-rate-of-play digital right now, and even beyond that in general many of their bans were way too aggressive for their old never-ban philosophy (e.g. I doubt they would have banned Veil or Field in the Cawblade era).
Wilderness Rec has been around since war of the spark to be fair
It kind of only came alive as a dominant archetype after Theros gave it Uro, I feel. And then with Ikoria you threw in Shark Typhoon and the triomes and it just got too good.
I like how the announcement frames it as they're just rotating these cards a little ahead of schedule, and then goes ahead and boots them out of Historic as well.
Wilderness Rec has been around since war of the spark to be fair
It's older than that, debuting in Ravnica Allegiance (alongside Growth Spiral). Teferi has been around since War.
All three were due to rotate in a few months but, as pointed out above, the increased volume of Standard play due to the current emphasis (nay requirement) for doing so online has pushed them to be more aggressive for now.
Has there been a standard with a banlist this long before?
No, though as noted in their announcement, they are intentionally banning more aggressively because Magic is basically high-rate-of-play digital right now, and even beyond that in general many of their bans were way too aggressive for their old never-ban philosophy (e.g. I doubt they would have banned Veil or Field in the Cawblade era).
Wilderness Rec has been around since war of the spark to be fair
It kind of only came alive as a dominant archetype after Theros gave it Uro, I feel. And then with Ikoria you threw in Shark Typhoon and the triomes and it just got too good.
I like how the announcement frames it as they're just rotating these cards a little ahead of schedule, and then goes ahead and boots them out of Historic as well.
I think it's just because playing against cat/oven is incredibly annoying and makes the person playing it click endlessly, and the person playing against it to wait for their opponent to click endlessly.
Wilderness Rec has been around since war of the spark to be fair
It kind of only came alive as a dominant archetype after Theros gave it Uro, I feel. And then with Ikoria you threw in Shark Typhoon and the triomes and it just got too good.
I like how the announcement frames it as they're just rotating these cards a little ahead of schedule, and then goes ahead and boots them out of Historic as well.
rec's win con was expansion/explosion, not uro
Uro gave it the ability to live long enough to get there much more reliably.
Wilderness Rec has been around since war of the spark to be fair
It kind of only came alive as a dominant archetype after Theros gave it Uro, I feel. And then with Ikoria you threw in Shark Typhoon and the triomes and it just got too good.
I like how the announcement frames it as they're just rotating these cards a little ahead of schedule, and then goes ahead and boots them out of Historic as well.
rec's win con was expansion/explosion, not uro
Uro gave Reclamation a secondary source of ramp and lifegain, which pushed it ahead compared to aggro decks, which got relatively little in the same period. It still wins with expansion/explosion but it's got a backup.
Has there been a standard with a banlist this long before?
No, though as noted in their announcement, they are intentionally banning more aggressively because Magic is basically high-rate-of-play digital right now, and even beyond that in general many of their bans were way too aggressive for their old never-ban philosophy (e.g. I doubt they would have banned Veil or Field in the Cawblade era).
Cawblade era was absolutely ridiculous mind
True, but I'm just pointing out their heavy-handedness with bans is not solely due to the card balance but also due to the speed of Arena shaping the metagame and the change in philosophy. Still a pretty bad run, but who knows if it would have been as bad in the paper-only era, or how bad some hidden paper metagames would be with Arena play levels.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Wilderness Rec has been around since war of the spark to be fair
It kind of only came alive as a dominant archetype after Theros gave it Uro, I feel. And then with Ikoria you threw in Shark Typhoon and the triomes and it just got too good.
I like how the announcement frames it as they're just rotating these cards a little ahead of schedule, and then goes ahead and boots them out of Historic as well.
rec's win con was expansion/explosion, not uro
Uro and growth spiral were how rec got established
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
I think it's just because playing against cat/oven is incredibly annoying and makes the person playing it click endlessly, and the person playing against it to wait for their opponent to click endlessly.
none of that makes it ban worthy
time is only an issue if the deck regularly goes to time like Eggs did, and cat oven doesn't
+2
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Dr. Flamingo49 Gilded Disc Perceives the SunRegistered Userregular
Honestly the reason they actually gave for banning Cat makes the most sense to me. It's just an insanely good blocker and aggro needs the help right now.
I think it's interesting that (at least I feel) uro is way stronger than spiral, but they chose to ban spiral instead because having both of them is too strong, spiral is less interesting, and is rotating sooner
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Dr. Flamingo49 Gilded Disc Perceives the SunRegistered Userregular
I think Uro might get banned eventually, but I know Ugin will.
It wasn't Teferi, Time Raveler that drove me away from Magic some months ago, but he sure didn't make me want to play any games.
Wilderness Reclamation was miserable as well.
Growth Spiral... actually, I thought Growth Spiral was OK, it's just that seeing it played was a clear sign that I was about get my head kicked in by another meta deck.
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Dr. Flamingo49 Gilded Disc Perceives the SunRegistered Userregular
I was mad about losing Reclamation but I guess I still have Temur Adventures to play. Still annoyed about it being gone NOW and not being able to play it, or the 4-color version I just invested in two days ago. (net loss 1 wildcard, I am just a big baby)
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Lord Palingtonhe.him.hisHistory-loving pal!Registered Userregular
I wonder how much of this was based on the feedback button in Arena, that "Did you have fun this match?" Y/N thing. Standard/Historic only, mind.
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
re digital play, I imagine the extra emphasis on Arena makes bannings a little easier to swallow because they can issue wildcard refunds, compared to in paper where someone can drop megabucks on a playset that gets banned the next day and Wizards can't really do anything to soften that blow.
Has there been a standard with a banlist this long before?
No, though as noted in their announcement, they are intentionally banning more aggressively because Magic is basically high-rate-of-play digital right now, and even beyond that in general many of their bans were way too aggressive for their old never-ban philosophy (e.g. I doubt they would have banned Veil or Field in the Cawblade era).
Cawblade era was absolutely ridiculous mind
True, but I'm just pointing out their heavy-handedness with bans is not solely due to the card balance but also due to the speed of Arena shaping the metagame and the change in philosophy. Still a pretty bad run, but who knows if it would have been as bad in the paper-only era, or how bad some hidden paper metagames would be with Arena play levels.
Yeah that's fair. And honestly I don't think that any of these cards realllllly need a ban, apart from I guess Teferi
Although how many cards on this Standard's ban list are banned on their own power alone? Oko, Veil, Once Upon a Time... maybe Fires? I dunno I feel that Fires would have been fine in another Standard.
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Dr. Flamingo49 Gilded Disc Perceives the SunRegistered Userregular
Well a person COULD have blown a bunch of wildcards on a deck that doesn't function any more, and not get reimbursed for the other combo pieces, but that's still better than being out a few hundo.
Growth Spiral is absolutely the problem card in those decks, T2 ramp is extremely good because it lets you hit your T4 payoff early, and allowing you to hold up interaction (or spiral into mystical dispute) is very, very strong.
Uro is still good but wasn't the glue that let the decks get incredible starts.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Honestly the reason they actually gave for banning Cat makes the most sense to me. It's just an insanely good blocker and aggro needs the help right now.
If they wanted to help low-curve decks, a good starting point would have been printing at least one constructed-playable one- or two-drop creature in the last three sets. (Okay, there's Serrated Scorpion, and maybe Alseid and Vessel on the fringe if you want to be generous, but has anything else even remotely stuck? Red aggro is literally unchanged since Eldraine minus the addition of Anax back in Ikoria.)
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Honestly the reason they actually gave for banning Cat makes the most sense to me. It's just an insanely good blocker and aggro needs the help right now.
If they wanted to help low-curve decks, a good starting point would have been printing at least one constructed-playable one- or two-drop creature in the last three sets. (Okay, there's Serrated Scorpion, and maybe Alseid and Vessel on the fringe if you want to be generous, but has anything else even remotely stuck? Red aggro is literally unchanged since Eldraine minus the addition of Anax back in Ikoria.)
and also stop printing extremely efficient board wipes and removal
Honestly the reason they actually gave for banning Cat makes the most sense to me. It's just an insanely good blocker and aggro needs the help right now.
If they wanted to help low-curve decks, a good starting point would have been printing at least one constructed-playable one- or two-drop creature in the last three sets. (Okay, there's Serrated Scorpion, and maybe Alseid and Vessel on the fringe if you want to be generous, but has anything else even remotely stuck? Red aggro is literally unchanged since Eldraine minus the addition of Anax back in Ikoria.)
and also stop printing extremely efficient board wipes and removal
There are, what, 8 playable board wipes against aggro right now?
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Honestly the reason they actually gave for banning Cat makes the most sense to me. It's just an insanely good blocker and aggro needs the help right now.
If they wanted to help low-curve decks, a good starting point would have been printing at least one constructed-playable one- or two-drop creature in the last three sets. (Okay, there's Serrated Scorpion, and maybe Alseid and Vessel on the fringe if you want to be generous, but has anything else even remotely stuck? Red aggro is literally unchanged since Eldraine minus the addition of Anax back in Ikoria.)
and also stop printing extremely efficient board wipes and removal
There are, what, 8 playable board wipes against aggro right now?
only like 3 or 4 of them are regularly played, but yeah something like that
Honestly the reason they actually gave for banning Cat makes the most sense to me. It's just an insanely good blocker and aggro needs the help right now.
If they wanted to help low-curve decks, a good starting point would have been printing at least one constructed-playable one- or two-drop creature in the last three sets. (Okay, there's Serrated Scorpion, and maybe Alseid and Vessel on the fringe if you want to be generous, but has anything else even remotely stuck? Red aggro is literally unchanged since Eldraine minus the addition of Anax back in Ikoria.)
and also stop printing extremely efficient board wipes and removal
There are, what, 8 playable board wipes against aggro right now?
only like 3 or 4 of them are regularly played, but yeah something like that
Yeah at some point you dont need more but its been a rough world for aggro for a while.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Fites would be fine in a theoretical standard. Ditto growth spiral. I think Rec was probably always a mistake.
there have been Rec equivalents that were fine, they didn't exist in a standard with infinite mana dumps like explosion or sharknado
I think the other difference is that the other Rec-like cards (Prophet of Kruphix, Seedborn Muse) weren't triggered effects, they just changed the rules of untap steps so that your stuff untapped during your opponent's turn as well as your own. That ended up making them overpowered in multiplayer EDH but not much more than a curiosity in Standard. Changing it to a trigger that only happens on your turn limits its power in multiplayer and fits with the newer style of design they've been moving toward (effects triggered by once-per-turn events like end step or attacking), but (I suspect unintentionally) effectively doubles your mana per Rec for instant effects. There's no way to stack up the effect with Prophet or Seedborn, and they didn't let you pile it all into one cost.
It's a rough world for aggro, but the Bo1 ladder is extremely aggro so I dunno
mono-red, Rakdos and I guess mono-green are so popular right now
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
Man as someone who was upset that literally all of these cards weren't banned last time it strikes me as super dumb to ban them now. Might as well just let the shit rotate if you've waited this long (except for cat).
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Dr. Flamingo49 Gilded Disc Perceives the SunRegistered Userregular
Man, I was all in on March of the Multitudes but then there was Find/Finality, Deafening Clarion, Ritual of Soot, Cry of the Carnarium, Gates Ablaze, Time Wipe, Shatter the Sky, now Ugin...
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No, though as noted in their announcement, they are intentionally banning more aggressively because Magic is basically high-rate-of-play digital right now, and even beyond that in general many of their bans were way too aggressive for their old never-ban philosophy (e.g. I doubt they would have banned Veil or Field in the Cawblade era).
It kind of only came alive as a dominant archetype after Theros gave it Uro, I feel. And then with Ikoria you threw in Shark Typhoon and the triomes and it just got too good.
I like how the announcement frames it as they're just rotating these cards a little ahead of schedule, and then goes ahead and boots them out of Historic as well.
It's older than that, debuting in Ravnica Allegiance (alongside Growth Spiral). Teferi has been around since War.
All three were due to rotate in a few months but, as pointed out above, the increased volume of Standard play due to the current emphasis (nay requirement) for doing so online has pushed them to be more aggressive for now.
Cawblade era was absolutely ridiculous mind
they're probably worried that jund sac will become the new defacto best deck, but they probably couldve waited cause holy shit
rec's win con was expansion/explosion, not uro
Hard to shake the idea it was because they felt it was just annoying to play against.
Uro gave it the ability to live long enough to get there much more reliably.
Uro gave Reclamation a secondary source of ramp and lifegain, which pushed it ahead compared to aggro decks, which got relatively little in the same period. It still wins with expansion/explosion but it's got a backup.
True, but I'm just pointing out their heavy-handedness with bans is not solely due to the card balance but also due to the speed of Arena shaping the metagame and the change in philosophy. Still a pretty bad run, but who knows if it would have been as bad in the paper-only era, or how bad some hidden paper metagames would be with Arena play levels.
Uro and growth spiral were how rec got established
none of that makes it ban worthy
time is only an issue if the deck regularly goes to time like Eggs did, and cat oven doesn't
Wilderness Reclamation was miserable as well.
Growth Spiral... actually, I thought Growth Spiral was OK, it's just that seeing it played was a clear sign that I was about get my head kicked in by another meta deck.
Yeah that's fair. And honestly I don't think that any of these cards realllllly need a ban, apart from I guess Teferi
Although how many cards on this Standard's ban list are banned on their own power alone? Oko, Veil, Once Upon a Time... maybe Fires? I dunno I feel that Fires would have been fine in another Standard.
Uro is still good but wasn't the glue that let the decks get incredible starts.
there have been Rec equivalents that were fine, they didn't exist in a standard with infinite mana dumps like explosion or sharknado
and also stop printing extremely efficient board wipes and removal
There are, what, 8 playable board wipes against aggro right now?
only like 3 or 4 of them are regularly played, but yeah something like that
Yeah at some point you dont need more but its been a rough world for aggro for a while.
I think the other difference is that the other Rec-like cards (Prophet of Kruphix, Seedborn Muse) weren't triggered effects, they just changed the rules of untap steps so that your stuff untapped during your opponent's turn as well as your own. That ended up making them overpowered in multiplayer EDH but not much more than a curiosity in Standard. Changing it to a trigger that only happens on your turn limits its power in multiplayer and fits with the newer style of design they've been moving toward (effects triggered by once-per-turn events like end step or attacking), but (I suspect unintentionally) effectively doubles your mana per Rec for instant effects. There's no way to stack up the effect with Prophet or Seedborn, and they didn't let you pile it all into one cost.
mono-red, Rakdos and I guess mono-green are so popular right now