Star Trek: Lower Decks trailer is out. SPOILERS in effect!

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    A while back we joked about Picard and Sisko becoming friends over "shit that happened to O'Brien" stories. Talking about who wasn't on the Defiant and why makes me think of a real way: if Sisko had been on the Defiant.

    I know they didn't want to bloat the cast, so most of the DS9 lot wouldn't be there, but they don't have to. Imagine if Lily was never beamed up, and instead of her Picard's side kick through the whole thing was Sisko, both facing the enemy they thought took everything from them, carrying very different demons from their last encounter.

    I can literally HEAR Avery Brooks yelling, "Picard blow up the damn ship!"

    Great, now I want to see that movie. Kira helping the Entreprise's crew understanding a bunch of struggling survivors in a glorified refugee camp, O'Brien getting assimilated then unassimilated then super-assimilated.

    It's going to be like that unsolvable puzzle virus when the Borg try and fix O'Brien 's shoulder

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  • evilmrhenryevilmrhenry Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    A while back we joked about Picard and Sisko becoming friends over "shit that happened to O'Brien" stories. Talking about who wasn't on the Defiant and why makes me think of a real way: if Sisko had been on the Defiant.

    I know they didn't want to bloat the cast, so most of the DS9 lot wouldn't be there, but they don't have to. Imagine if Lily was never beamed up, and instead of her Picard's side kick through the whole thing was Sisko, both facing the enemy they thought took everything from them, carrying very different demons from their last encounter.

    I can literally HEAR Avery Brooks yelling, "Picard blow up the damn ship!"

    Great, now I want to see that movie. Kira helping the Entreprise's crew understanding a bunch of struggling survivors in a glorified refugee camp, O'Brien getting assimilated then unassimilated then super-assimilated.

    It's going to be like that unsolvable puzzle virus when the Borg try and fix O'Brien 's shoulder

    Either that or the entire collective gets his luck.

    GiantGeek2020
  • StrikorStrikor Calibrations? Calibrations! Registered User regular
    "Borg finally defeated after Queen falls into a time portal during peaceful family picnic" - Federation News Network, probably.

    I was killing Thresher Maws on foot before I knew it was a Krogan rite of passage.
    evilmrhenryCambiataJandaruShadowenNightslyrAbsoluteZeroMsAnthropyGiantGeek2020MatevDonnicton
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    So, assuming they're not killed and eaten, what is the life span of a kelpian?
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    A while back we joked about Picard and Sisko becoming friends over "shit that happened to O'Brien" stories. Talking about who wasn't on the Defiant and why makes me think of a real way: if Sisko had been on the Defiant.

    I know they didn't want to bloat the cast, so most of the DS9 lot wouldn't be there, but they don't have to. Imagine if Lily was never beamed up, and instead of her Picard's side kick through the whole thing was Sisko, both facing the enemy they thought took everything from them, carrying very different demons from their last encounter.

    I can literally HEAR Avery Brooks yelling, "Picard blow up the damn ship!"

    Great, now I want to see that movie. Kira helping the Entreprise's crew understanding a bunch of struggling survivors in a glorified refugee camp, O'Brien getting assimilated then unassimilated then super-assimilated.

    It's going to be like that unsolvable puzzle virus when the Borg try and fix O'Brien 's shoulder

    Either that or the entire collective gets his luck.

    As long as they don't get his engineering prowess. That'd be scary.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    Ringo
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited January 10
    Strikor wrote: »
    "Borg finally defeated after Queen falls into a time portal during peaceful family picnic" - Federation News Network, probably.

    Sure, it sounds funny now, but just wait until the universe collapses in on itself because one statistically-unlikely, but O-Brien-ly certain, accidental moment of bad luck causes the O'Borgien ships galaxy-wide to simultaneously discover sub-sub-sub-space and open unstoppable, ever-widening portals into it.

    Or as O'Brien would call it, "Thursday overtime".

    Ninja Snarl P on
    Strikor
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    The “use my chosen pronouns” scene was brief, unchallenged by the other character and seemed ok, at least to me. It presented the request for different pronouns as normal and no more than a speed bump in the conversation akin to “actually I’m a Ms”. Stamets’s response was basically “Oh, ok, then those are the pronouns I’ll use.” Which is what a Federation response should be.

    This isn’t to say the character’s overall presentation is therefore totally fine and her development in the show great, but that scene presented things much as you’d expect in a society that was “advanced”.

    Or that’s how it seemed to me, anyway.

    SteelhawkCroakerBCCommander ZoomexisJandarusee317ElbasunuZilla360Drows
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    Weaver wrote: »
    I was going to bed but no, I'm super grumpy at the Adira treatment. They advertised this season as having a non-binary character, got us livid from the start by going the Trill route, then had the character take several episodes to finally mumble out a pronoun correction, at which point the character is more defined by their gay Dads and dead boyfriend. Three men, on of them a dead person, are more the character of who was supposed to be a non-binary character.

    Ugh. Sorry to hear that my fears for that were founded. Is it true that
    they had a big deal 'coming out' / pronouns scene? I saw that somewhere, but have held off on watching the show until I heard a verdict on the season. If so, it is incredibly depressing that being trans or non-binary still requires revelation and explanation to cis people 1000 years into the future.

    Serious question, how is an NB person supposed to inform a cis person they're NB without bringing it up in conversation? It's not like there is a visual tell. A girl can have short hair and masculine clothes and still identify as female.

    The conversation was pretty much "I don't consider myself a "she" please use "they"" and Stammets going "cool, I shall do that from now on". There was no Stammets eye rolling or questioning it. Watch the scene and judge it for yourself, I'd be interested to know if you think it's problematic, but for me it seemed fine?

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    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
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  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    Data in Picard was a zombie. A clone of his memories pulled out of a failed older model android and given half life within a prison of the mind.

    Of course he wanted to end that existence. He'd already come to terms with death. He died a hero, on his own terms and with his head held high.

    Then years later, after he was eulogized and an empty coffin fired into space, some jackass ripped a ROM image of him and plugged it into an emulator with simulated inputs. That's what android hell looks like.

    Sure but they had a new android body ready to go for him so...

    cs6f034fsffl.jpg
  • MsAnthropyMsAnthropy The Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm The City of FlowersRegistered User regular
    edited January 10
    Casual wrote: »
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    Weaver wrote: »
    I was going to bed but no, I'm super grumpy at the Adira treatment. They advertised this season as having a non-binary character, got us livid from the start by going the Trill route, then had the character take several episodes to finally mumble out a pronoun correction, at which point the character is more defined by their gay Dads and dead boyfriend. Three men, on of them a dead person, are more the character of who was supposed to be a non-binary character.

    Ugh. Sorry to hear that my fears for that were founded. Is it true that
    they had a big deal 'coming out' / pronouns scene? I saw that somewhere, but have held off on watching the show until I heard a verdict on the season. If so, it is incredibly depressing that being trans or non-binary still requires revelation and explanation to cis people 1000 years into the future.

    Serious question, how is an NB person supposed to inform a cis person they're NB without bringing it up in conversation? It's not like there is a visual tell. A girl can have short hair and masculine clothes and still identify as female.

    The conversation was pretty much "I don't consider myself a "she" please use "they"" and Stammets going "cool, I shall do that from now on". There was no Stammets eye rolling or questioning it. Watch the scene and judge it for yourself, I'd be interested to know if you think it's problematic, but for me it seemed fine?


    Eh, I am more asking because I’ve heard from a few queer people that they didn’t like the way the character was handled, but they didn’t give a ton of detail. Plus, I am not sure I actually want to watch S3. I really like the cast, but found the writing, direction, and costume / set design—aside from the Enterprise—in the first two seasons to be all over the place and not to my liking (aside from 2-3 episodes).

    Edit: As far as pronouns, etc, go, in Star Trek’s far future, it’s something that shouldn’t even need to come up in conversation. Like the characters could just use they / them for a person who uses those pronouns without ever having to have a scene where it is mentioned. I would expect it to be something in an officer’s personnel file, and that their colleagues would have checked for it? Again, I don’t really know all the context because I am on the fence about watching the season.

    MsAnthropy on
    "The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
  • exisexis Registered User regular
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    Weaver wrote: »
    I was going to bed but no, I'm super grumpy at the Adira treatment. They advertised this season as having a non-binary character, got us livid from the start by going the Trill route, then had the character take several episodes to finally mumble out a pronoun correction, at which point the character is more defined by their gay Dads and dead boyfriend. Three men, on of them a dead person, are more the character of who was supposed to be a non-binary character.

    Ugh. Sorry to hear that my fears for that were founded. Is it true that
    they had a big deal 'coming out' / pronouns scene? I saw that somewhere, but have held off on watching the show until I heard a verdict on the season. If so, it is incredibly depressing that being trans or non-binary still requires revelation and explanation to cis people 1000 years into the future.

    Serious question, how is an NB person supposed to inform a cis person they're NB without bringing it up in conversation? It's not like there is a visual tell. A girl can have short hair and masculine clothes and still identify as female.

    The conversation was pretty much "I don't consider myself a "she" please use "they"" and Stammets going "cool, I shall do that from now on". There was no Stammets eye rolling or questioning it. Watch the scene and judge it for yourself, I'd be interested to know if you think it's problematic, but for me it seemed fine?


    Eh, I am more asking because I’ve heard from a few queer people that they didn’t like the way the character was handled, but they didn’t give a ton of detail. Plus, I am not sure I actually want to watch S3. I really like the cast, but found the writing, direction, and costume / set design—aside from the Enterprise—in the first two seasons to be all over the place and not to my liking (aside from 2-3 episodes).

    Edit: As far as pronouns, etc, go, in Star Trek’s far future, it’s something that shouldn’t even need to come up in conversation. Like the characters could just use they / them for a person who uses those pronouns without ever having to have a scene where it is mentioned. I would expect it to be something in an officer’s personnel file, and that their colleagues would have checked for it? Again, I don’t really know all the context because I am on the fence about watching the season.
    Adira is a character who is new to the crew as well as the show. So there was no personnel file and it's reasonable that the crew didn't know anything about them.

    I think one of the complaints has been "why did the show wait multiple episodes before making it clear what Adira's pronouns were". But I feel like that runs completely contrary to the (reasonable) expectation that we should be able to have trans/non-binary characters where that's not the only character trait they have. I actually think that the fact that it was introduced as another facet of Adira after we/the crew had gotten to know them is positive because it underlines that this is just one other aspect of who they are and is not the only thing that defines them.

    MsAnthropyJandaru
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    Weaver wrote: »
    I was going to bed but no, I'm super grumpy at the Adira treatment. They advertised this season as having a non-binary character, got us livid from the start by going the Trill route, then had the character take several episodes to finally mumble out a pronoun correction, at which point the character is more defined by their gay Dads and dead boyfriend. Three men, on of them a dead person, are more the character of who was supposed to be a non-binary character.

    Ugh. Sorry to hear that my fears for that were founded. Is it true that
    they had a big deal 'coming out' / pronouns scene? I saw that somewhere, but have held off on watching the show until I heard a verdict on the season. If so, it is incredibly depressing that being trans or non-binary still requires revelation and explanation to cis people 1000 years into the future.

    Serious question, how is an NB person supposed to inform a cis person they're NB without bringing it up in conversation? It's not like there is a visual tell. A girl can have short hair and masculine clothes and still identify as female.

    The conversation was pretty much "I don't consider myself a "she" please use "they"" and Stammets going "cool, I shall do that from now on". There was no Stammets eye rolling or questioning it. Watch the scene and judge it for yourself, I'd be interested to know if you think it's problematic, but for me it seemed fine?


    Eh, I am more asking because I’ve heard from a few queer people that they didn’t like the way the character was handled, but they didn’t give a ton of detail. Plus, I am not sure I actually want to watch S3. I really like the cast, but found the writing, direction, and costume / set design—aside from the Enterprise—in the first two seasons to be all over the place and not to my liking (aside from 2-3 episodes).

    Edit: As far as pronouns, etc, go, in Star Trek’s far future, it’s something that shouldn’t even need to come up in conversation. Like the characters could just use they / them for a person who uses those pronouns without ever having to have a scene where it is mentioned. I would expect it to be something in an officer’s personnel file, and that their colleagues would have checked for it? Again, I don’t really know all the context because I am on the fence about watching the season.

    I feel like in trek tradition the interaction was more framed around "this is how this conversation should ideally be handled by people living in the time the show was made", rather than an attempt to accurately depict a society where people have moved past seeing it as an issue. It's like depicting an interracial kiss in the 1960's, it's a well-intentioned attempt to shift the overton window.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Yeah, the problem is that the goals of "depict this as it should be, completely ordinary and unremarkable" and "make sure the contemporary audience notices" are at cross purposes.

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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    Weaver wrote: »
    I was going to bed but no, I'm super grumpy at the Adira treatment. They advertised this season as having a non-binary character, got us livid from the start by going the Trill route, then had the character take several episodes to finally mumble out a pronoun correction, at which point the character is more defined by their gay Dads and dead boyfriend. Three men, on of them a dead person, are more the character of who was supposed to be a non-binary character.

    Ugh. Sorry to hear that my fears for that were founded. Is it true that
    they had a big deal 'coming out' / pronouns scene? I saw that somewhere, but have held off on watching the show until I heard a verdict on the season. If so, it is incredibly depressing that being trans or non-binary still requires revelation and explanation to cis people 1000 years into the future.

    Serious question, how is an NB person supposed to inform a cis person they're NB without bringing it up in conversation? It's not like there is a visual tell. A girl can have short hair and masculine clothes and still identify as female.

    The conversation was pretty much "I don't consider myself a "she" please use "they"" and Stammets going "cool, I shall do that from now on". There was no Stammets eye rolling or questioning it. Watch the scene and judge it for yourself, I'd be interested to know if you think it's problematic, but for me it seemed fine?


    I mean, that's what i do as a NB person - I'm bearded, i have a masc voice, i wear masc clothing. I just tell people "Hey, i'm a They/Them not a He/Him" when introducing myself, corrrect them gently on my pronouns if they get it wrong, and more grumpily if they keep getting it wrong. So it read fine to me!

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  • TGalahadTGalahad Registered User regular
    edited January 13
    Discovery season 3 overall review: Started off interestingly enough. Quickly went downhill and I enjoyed it less and less, becoming fed up with the issues most of us have with the show. I turned to almost hate-watching and waiting for Mandalorian to drop the next day. But the final 3 episodes, despite many of the same flaws, were overall entertaining and ended the season on an upswing. The premise for season 4
    has potential and feels new. And with Michael (inexplicably) the captain maybe that’ll ease some of my complaints about how they treat her. won’t hold my breath though.

    TGalahad on
    exis
  • exisexis Registered User regular
    edited January 13
    @TGalahad you might want to spoiler some of that ^
    TGalahad wrote: »
    Discovery season 3 overall review: Started off interestingly enough. Quickly went downhill and I enjoyed it less and less, becoming fed up with the issues most of us have with the show. I turned to almost hate-watching and waiting for Mandalorian to drop the next day. But the final 3 episodes, despite many of the same flaws, were overall entertaining and ended the season on an upswing. The premise for season 4 has potential and feels new.
    And with Michael (inexplicably) the captain maybe that’ll ease some of my complaints about how they treat her. won’t hold my breath though.
    Yeah I think this is one of the better things about how S3 shook out. Cribbing some opinions from one of the hosts of the Greatest Discovery podcast: Now that they've put a 'clean' cap on the burn mystery and are firmly planted in the future, it feels like they can get on with just 'doing Star Trek' without everything needing to be about the Disco resolving another Universe-ending existential crisis. And Disco becoming a dilithium UPS service feels like a very early-Trek platform to launch episodes off. I would be pretty happy if they did a season of TNG-style monster of the week stories, though that's probably not a possibility these days.

    exis on
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited January 13
    S4...
    Captain Burnham won't change my opinion of her use in the show that much, because right from the get go the focus on her was a misunderstanding of the shows that came before. Kirk, Picard, etc were not the main characters of their shows. They were the main characters of some episodes, possibly more on balance than the other main cast, but for every Picard-centric episode there's one for Data or Riker or even Barclay. Everyone gets their turn, some characters more than others but even Harry Kim got his Timeless and Space Herpes. And I can't recall a single episode outside of Discovery with A and B plots both centered on the same character, captain or otherwise.

    Hevach on
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    S4...
    Captain Burnham won't change my opinion of her use in the show that much, because right from the get go the focus on her was a misunderstanding of the shows that came before. Kirk, Picard, etc were not the main characters of their shows. They were the main characters of some episodes, possibly more on balance than the other main cast, but for every Picard-centric episode there's one for Data or Riker or even Barclay. Everyone gets their turn, some characters more than others but even Harry Kim got his Timeless and Space Herpes. And I can't recall a single episode outside of Discovery with A and B plots both centered on the same character, captain or otherwise.

    It's a common theme among criticism of Discovery that it isn't following the same story telling pattern as TNG did. This on its own doesn't seem like a problem, there has to be room for innovation in story telling. TNG being an ensemble cast doesn't automatically mean every show that comes after it has to be. The issue is the writing is bad. There's a focus on style over substance. Nothing feels earned and the timing all feels rushed. The over all arc of the show is zig-zagging like crazy Ivan as they try to reinvent it every season.

    It has the same problem most modern media has, good storytelling has been traded for impressive CGI and visual effects. There is no consistency or central plot because the show exists season to season waiting for the plug to be pulled if the viewing figures drop.

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    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
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    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
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  • TGalahadTGalahad Registered User regular
    exis wrote: »
    @TGalahad you might want to spoiler some of that ^
    TGalahad wrote: »
    Discovery season 3 overall review: Started off interestingly enough. Quickly went downhill and I enjoyed it less and less, becoming fed up with the issues most of us have with the show. I turned to almost hate-watching and waiting for Mandalorian to drop the next day. But the final 3 episodes, despite many of the same flaws, were overall entertaining and ended the season on an upswing. The premise for season 4 has potential and feels new.
    And with Michael (inexplicably) the captain maybe that’ll ease some of my complaints about how they treat her. won’t hold my breath though.
    Yeah I think this is one of the better things about how S3 shook out. Cribbing some opinions from one of the hosts of the Greatest Discovery podcast: Now that they've put a 'clean' cap on the burn mystery and are firmly planted in the future, it feels like they can get on with just 'doing Star Trek' without everything needing to be about the Disco resolving another Universe-ending existential crisis. And Disco becoming a dilithium UPS service feels like a very early-Trek platform to launch episodes off. I would be pretty happy if they did a season of TNG-style monster of the week stories, though that's probably not a possibility these days.

    Thanks exis, apologizes. My fault, I thought we were into open discussion. I’ve fixed it now.

  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    They solved a lot of galactic scale issues for one season, didn't they?
    The Chain: Left leaderless and likely to splinter into sub factions.
    Dilithium poverty: Hey, just found a planet literally made of the stuff.
    The Burn: Turns out it was a psychic kid throwing a tantrum.
    Audience tired of prequel material that doesn't fit with existing timelines: Time travel into the future
    Broken Federation: rebuilding now that they have a planet full of dilithium for power.

    I feel certain that I've missed some. But, damn, that's a busy season.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited January 13
    Casual wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    S4...
    Captain Burnham won't change my opinion of her use in the show that much, because right from the get go the focus on her was a misunderstanding of the shows that came before. Kirk, Picard, etc were not the main characters of their shows. They were the main characters of some episodes, possibly more on balance than the other main cast, but for every Picard-centric episode there's one for Data or Riker or even Barclay. Everyone gets their turn, some characters more than others but even Harry Kim got his Timeless and Space Herpes. And I can't recall a single episode outside of Discovery with A and B plots both centered on the same character, captain or otherwise.

    It's a common theme among criticism of Discovery that it isn't following the same story telling pattern as TNG did. This on its own doesn't seem like a problem, there has to be room for innovation in story telling. TNG being an ensemble cast doesn't automatically mean every show that comes after it has to be. The issue is the writing is bad. There's a focus on style over substance. Nothing feels earned and the timing all feels rushed. The over all arc of the show is zig-zagging like crazy Ivan as they try to reinvent it every season.

    It has the same problem most modern media has, good storytelling has been traded for impressive CGI and visual effects. There is no consistency or central plot because the show exists season to season waiting for the plug to be pulled if the viewing figures drop.

    It's not just following a different storytelling pattern. The original announcement shows what I'm referring to: Fuller's first statement on Discovery was that six series had been from the captain's perspective and this was the first time anyone else was the focus. Which is a staggering misunderstanding of the shows that came before, but honestly shouldn't be that surprising - if you look at Bryan Fuller's writing credits on Voyager almost every one of his scripts except Spirit Folk went through the wringer. SF Debris chose one of his to digress on the bloated writing credits that hails an episode held together with chewing gum and chicken wire.

    Discovery's writing isn't just bad. Enterprise's writing is bad. Discovery's writing is based on the premise of a singular protagonist, which itself was explicitly based on the statement that the other series all had a singular protagonist and point of view.

    The writing being bad is why everyone has the emotional stability of a cranky toddler and why every crises has to be galactic in scale. The show being the Michael Burnham and Sometimes Spock Show with A B and C plots revolving around and resolved by her was on purpose.

    Hevach on
    Commander Zoom
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    S4...
    Captain Burnham won't change my opinion of her use in the show that much, because right from the get go the focus on her was a misunderstanding of the shows that came before. Kirk, Picard, etc were not the main characters of their shows. They were the main characters of some episodes, possibly more on balance than the other main cast, but for every Picard-centric episode there's one for Data or Riker or even Barclay. Everyone gets their turn, some characters more than others but even Harry Kim got his Timeless and Space Herpes. And I can't recall a single episode outside of Discovery with A and B plots both centered on the same character, captain or otherwise.

    It's a common theme among criticism of Discovery that it isn't following the same story telling pattern as TNG did. This on its own doesn't seem like a problem, there has to be room for innovation in story telling. TNG being an ensemble cast doesn't automatically mean every show that comes after it has to be. The issue is the writing is bad. There's a focus on style over substance. Nothing feels earned and the timing all feels rushed. The over all arc of the show is zig-zagging like crazy Ivan as they try to reinvent it every season.

    It has the same problem most modern media has, good storytelling has been traded for impressive CGI and visual effects. There is no consistency or central plot because the show exists season to season waiting for the plug to be pulled if the viewing figures drop.

    I disagree. It's not writing vs spectacle, it's just one kind of writing vs another.

    The main culprit with a lot of shows is the desire to ape "Prestige Television" imo. They think they have to abandon episodic storytelling and have season long arcs with constantly this-changes-everything shocking twists and reveals and also be edgy and yada yada yada.

    Commander ZoomCasualMonwynautono-wally, erotibot300MsAnthropyMatev
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    And her being written so terribly exacerbates the problem because they have little else to turn to. She sucks up all the oxygen in the room.

    HevachCommander ZoomhonovereCasualMsAnthropy
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    And her being written so terribly exacerbates the problem because they have little else to turn to. She sucks up all the oxygen in the room.

    Exactly. The writing isn't even Into Darkness bad. It's Enterprise-bad. I can sit and watch Enterprise through sober. There's some groaners and damn if Archer threatening to piss on the holy trees doesn't make me physically angry at the very concept of visual storytelling, but I can watch it. Discovery's bad writing combined with bad structure makes it like going back and forth between Tattoo and Profit and Lace half the time and Pike barely gets enough screen time to dull the pain for one season.

    autono-wally, erotibot300
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    also, if it needs saying (again), I do not blame the actor for the fucking terrible writing of her character, any more than I blamed Mulgrew.

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    The main culprit with a lot of shows is the desire to ape "Prestige Television" imo. They think they have to abandon episodic storytelling and have season long arcs with constantly this-changes-everything shocking twists and reveals and also be edgy and yada yada yada.
    Which makes me think that they don't actually know or understand "Prestige Television" beyond, I dunno, Game of Thrones. Mad Men was often episodic, as was The Sopranos. Many of these series are modelled much more on short stories and novels and they don't really have constant shocking twists and reveals.

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
    JacobkoshMatev
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    They solved a lot of galactic scale issues for one season, didn't they?
    The Chain: Left leaderless and likely to splinter into sub factions.
    Dilithium poverty: Hey, just found a planet literally made of the stuff.
    The Burn: Turns out it was a psychic kid throwing a tantrum.

    Audience tired of prequel material that doesn't fit with existing timelines: Time travel into the future
    Broken Federation: rebuilding now that they have a planet full of dilithium for power.

    I feel certain that I've missed some. But, damn, that's a busy season.

    Those...
    ...seem rather underwhelming.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
    Strikor
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    To be honest I'm not sure what some of y'all are disagreeing about re: Discovery as you seem to be kind of circling each other's points.

    I'm just going to throw out a couple of simple declarative statements to try and sum up how I feel about the show:

    - I do not, on balance, like the writing on Discovery. Sometimes I have, in the past. I've enjoyed individual episodes, scenes, or moments, but not consistently. I think it's at best wildly inconsistent, with big ups and downs, and frequently falls short at the absolute worst possible times - for instance, when it comes time to explain or wrap-up a long-running mystery.
    - I do not think that the reason the writing is bad is because of the format change to a single protagonist. I think a show with that focus could have been fine and good and there's nothing inherently bad or wrong about the idea. I just don't think it's this show.

    rRwz9.gif
    CasualhlprmnkyMsAnthropyhonovereMatevThiswandering
  • MsAnthropyMsAnthropy The Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm The City of FlowersRegistered User regular
    edited January 14
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    To be honest I'm not sure what some of y'all are disagreeing about re: Discovery as you seem to be kind of circling each other's points.

    I'm just going to throw out a couple of simple declarative statements to try and sum up how I feel about the show:

    - I do not, on balance, like the writing on Discovery. Sometimes I have, in the past. I've enjoyed individual episodes, scenes, or moments, but not consistently. I think it's at best wildly inconsistent, with big ups and downs, and frequently falls short at the absolute worst possible times - for instance, when it comes time to explain or wrap-up a long-running mystery.
    - I do not think that the reason the writing is bad is because of the format change to a single protagonist. I think a show with that focus could have been fine and good and there's nothing inherently bad or wrong about the idea. I just don't think it's this show.

    Re: the bold. I think the fact that literally every episode apparently has to tie into their big season-long mystery exacerbates the issue. There were a couple of eps in the first two seasons I generally liked (in particular the one with Mudd and the time travel device, the one with Saru where his fear was eliminated, the one in S2 where they find the colony of religious people), but the arcing stories they all tie into were just... stupid and it makes me resent the forcing in of those ties in retrospect. Like the Saru episode would have been 10x better if the 15-20 mins of it tied to the Klingon War would’ve been replaced with them showing us how the Kelpian fear response impacted him instead of him having to tell us what a big deal having that removed was.

    Edit: On balance a show like the X-Files could get away with having shitty overarching plots because so many unconnected episodes were really good and made us connect with the two leads.

    MsAnthropy on
    "The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
    Commander ZoomJacobkoshSneaks
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    To be honest I'm not sure what some of y'all are disagreeing about re: Discovery as you seem to be kind of circling each other's points.

    I'm just going to throw out a couple of simple declarative statements to try and sum up how I feel about the show:

    - I do not, on balance, like the writing on Discovery. Sometimes I have, in the past. I've enjoyed individual episodes, scenes, or moments, but not consistently. I think it's at best wildly inconsistent, with big ups and downs, and frequently falls short at the absolute worst possible times - for instance, when it comes time to explain or wrap-up a long-running mystery.
    - I do not think that the reason the writing is bad is because of the format change to a single protagonist. I think a show with that focus could have been fine and good and there's nothing inherently bad or wrong about the idea. I just don't think it's this show.

    Re: the bold. I think the fact that literally every episode apparently has to tie into their big season-long mystery exacerbates the issue. There were a couple of eps in the first two seasons I generally liked (in particular the one with Mudd and the time travel device, the one with Saru where his fear was eliminated, the one in S2 where they find the colony of religious people), but the arcing stories they all tie into were just... stupid and it makes me resent the forcing in of those ties in retrospect. Like the Saru episode would have been 10x better if the 15-20 mins of it tied to the Klingon War would’ve been replaced with them showing us how the Kelpian fear response impacted him instead of him having to tell us what a big deal having that removed was.

    Edit: On balance a show like the X-Files could get away with having shitty overarching plots because so many unconnected episodes were really good and made us connect with the two leads.

    Also The X-Files overarcing story only got stupid eventually. At the start it was all weird and mysterious and interesting. Sorta like Lost really.

    MsAnthropyStrikorCommander Zoom
  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    To date, the best episodes of Discovery have been the Harry Mudd stuff, because they don't get wound up in the Epic Galaxy-Spanning Disaster stuff.

    Like, even the Dominion War's ongoing arc was just... A war. Not an existential threat to all life. Q put humanity on trial, but the entire Federation didn't devote itself to containing him.

    uH3IcEi.png
  • Space PickleSpace Pickle Registered User regular
    Generally the more they added on to the X-Files "mythology" the sillier it became. Still a great show, though.

    I'm sorry for discussing X-Files in the Star Trek thread but I don't subscribe to any of these services and can't participate in the discussion.

    MsAnthropy
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    To date, the best episodes of Discovery have been the Harry Mudd stuff, because they don't get wound up in the Epic Galaxy-Spanning Disaster stuff.

    Like, even the Dominion War's ongoing arc was just... A war. Not an existential threat to all life. Q put humanity on trial, but the entire Federation didn't devote itself to containing him.

    Q put humanity on trial, but it's worth mentioning the closest humanity ever got to sentencing was by it's own hand in All Good Things. There's no indication he was going to finger snap the Federation out of existence at any point.

    Commander Zoom
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    also they ran in to an entity that did commit genocide at the snap of a finger and felt the best thing to do was just leave him be.

    Commander Zoom
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    They solved a lot of galactic scale issues for one season, didn't they?
    The Chain: Left leaderless and likely to splinter into sub factions.
    Dilithium poverty: Hey, just found a planet literally made of the stuff.
    The Burn: Turns out it was a psychic kid throwing a tantrum.

    Audience tired of prequel material that doesn't fit with existing timelines: Time travel into the future
    Broken Federation: rebuilding now that they have a planet full of dilithium for power.

    I feel certain that I've missed some. But, damn, that's a busy season.

    Those...
    ...seem rather underwhelming.

    Absolutely underwhelming considering the wide ranging impact they had.
    Granted, I don't know how you write "99.9% of the starships in the known galaxy exploded at the same time" and don't have an underwhelming cause. I mean a god like alien being seems passé in Trek. The average Star Trek captain deals with god like aliens about once a month, and the idea of a single super weapon that could obliterate galactic civilization like that seems kind of dumb given the scale.
    I suppose they could have tied it in with the super extra-dimensional AI from Picard finally getting around to seeing what all that fuss was about and targeting dilithium power supplies as their initial strike. Some techno-babble about time distortion between dimensions or immortal super AIs just running on a vastly different time scale (no need to rush, we've got literally eternity, let's finish this game of checkers before we check up on the beacon that our watchdogs told us about...).

    I think it would have been cool to learn that The Burn actually was caused by the Vulcan/Romulan experiments and the New Federation has to cover that up in order to restore itself and bring the Vulcans back into the fold (with their Romulan cousins).

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited January 14
    see317 wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    They solved a lot of galactic scale issues for one season, didn't they?
    The Chain: Left leaderless and likely to splinter into sub factions.
    Dilithium poverty: Hey, just found a planet literally made of the stuff.
    The Burn: Turns out it was a psychic kid throwing a tantrum.

    Audience tired of prequel material that doesn't fit with existing timelines: Time travel into the future
    Broken Federation: rebuilding now that they have a planet full of dilithium for power.

    I feel certain that I've missed some. But, damn, that's a busy season.

    Those...
    ...seem rather underwhelming.

    Absolutely underwhelming considering the wide ranging impact they had.
    Granted, I don't know how you write "99.9% of the starships in the known galaxy exploded at the same time" and don't have an underwhelming cause. I mean a god like alien being seems passé in Trek. The average Star Trek captain deals with god like aliens about once a month, and the idea of a single super weapon that could obliterate galactic civilization like that seems kind of dumb given the scale.
    I suppose they could have tied it in with the super extra-dimensional AI from Picard finally getting around to seeing what all that fuss was about and targeting dilithium power supplies as their initial strike. Some techno-babble about time distortion between dimensions or immortal super AIs just running on a vastly different time scale (no need to rush, we've got literally eternity, let's finish this game of checkers before we check up on the beacon that our watchdogs told us about...).

    I think it would have been cool to learn that The Burn actually was caused by the Vulcan/Romulan experiments and the New Federation has to cover that up in order to restore itself and bring the Vulcans back into the fold (with their Romulan cousins).
    Science experiment mistake was sounds like a cool idea. Like during the first atomic bomb test by US scientists, there was that small doubt that they may ignite the atmosphere and destroy the world, but this time it's real

    Lanlaorn on
    RichyCommander Zoom
  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    They solved a lot of galactic scale issues for one season, didn't they?
    The Chain: Left leaderless and likely to splinter into sub factions.
    Dilithium poverty: Hey, just found a planet literally made of the stuff.
    The Burn: Turns out it was a psychic kid throwing a tantrum.

    Audience tired of prequel material that doesn't fit with existing timelines: Time travel into the future
    Broken Federation: rebuilding now that they have a planet full of dilithium for power.

    I feel certain that I've missed some. But, damn, that's a busy season.

    Those...
    ...seem rather underwhelming.

    Absolutely underwhelming considering the wide ranging impact they had.
    Granted, I don't know how you write "99.9% of the starships in the known galaxy exploded at the same time" and don't have an underwhelming cause. I mean a god like alien being seems passé in Trek. The average Star Trek captain deals with god like aliens about once a month, and the idea of a single super weapon that could obliterate galactic civilization like that seems kind of dumb given the scale.
    I suppose they could have tied it in with the super extra-dimensional AI from Picard finally getting around to seeing what all that fuss was about and targeting dilithium power supplies as their initial strike. Some techno-babble about time distortion between dimensions or immortal super AIs just running on a vastly different time scale (no need to rush, we've got literally eternity, let's finish this game of checkers before we check up on the beacon that our watchdogs told us about...).

    I think it would have been cool to learn that The Burn actually was caused by the Vulcan/Romulan experiments and the New Federation has to cover that up in order to restore itself and bring the Vulcans back into the fold (with their Romulan cousins).
    Science experiment mistake was sounds like a cool idea. Like during the first atomic bomb test by US scientists, there was that small doubt that they may ignite the atmosphere and destroy the world, but this time it's real
    Like, they could even have kept the Kelpian kid as the B-plot.

    You do the exact same story except that the Burn was caused by the interaction of an experimental drive system with a planet-sized chunk of dilithium, which caused a subspace resonance cascade and caused the overwhelming majority of crystals to shatter. The crew managed to tamp it down after realizing what was happening, knowing that their solution would release a massive amount of radiation that would kill everyone on board. The drive is still on, though, and it will eventually fail entirely, setting off another Burn.

    The kid still gets put on the holodeck to protect him from the radiation wave, and he still has to be removed from it before Discovery can disable the experimental drive and end the threat permanently. The need to disable the drive also gives Adira something to do other than hand the bridge crew a handful of pills. For bonus points have the Sphere intelligence recommend that they stop fucking around with the kid and just fix the thing because *literally play Spock fixing the warp core and dying in WoK here,* since we need to shoehorn references to TOS everywhere.

    uH3IcEi.png
    TOGSolidCommander Zoom
  • TOGSolidTOGSolid Drunk sailor Seattle, WashingtonRegistered User regular
    edited January 15
    Tbh I just wanna see more of the first half of season 2 or Lower Decks where things were episodic but had overarching plot/character development respectively. Lower Decks nailed it by keeping each episode self-contained but advancing Boimler's journey. The first half of S2 was honestly quite good, it's just a shame it had to be tied to a GALAXY ENDING THREAT. They can just have a basic ass mystery to solve like a mysterious signal that leads to a lost ship and then have the last episode or two be about what happened to the ship. It'll lead them from location to location where they go on a self-contained adventure but get a clue as to what's going on. Just nice, simple, and fun and opens the door for interesting storytelling without needing some god awful super AI, messy final battle nonsense.
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    They solved a lot of galactic scale issues for one season, didn't they?
    The Chain: Left leaderless and likely to splinter into sub factions.
    Dilithium poverty: Hey, just found a planet literally made of the stuff.
    The Burn: Turns out it was a psychic kid throwing a tantrum.

    Audience tired of prequel material that doesn't fit with existing timelines: Time travel into the future
    Broken Federation: rebuilding now that they have a planet full of dilithium for power.

    I feel certain that I've missed some. But, damn, that's a busy season.

    Those...
    ...seem rather underwhelming.

    Absolutely underwhelming considering the wide ranging impact they had.
    Granted, I don't know how you write "99.9% of the starships in the known galaxy exploded at the same time" and don't have an underwhelming cause. I mean a god like alien being seems passé in Trek. The average Star Trek captain deals with god like aliens about once a month, and the idea of a single super weapon that could obliterate galactic civilization like that seems kind of dumb given the scale.
    I suppose they could have tied it in with the super extra-dimensional AI from Picard finally getting around to seeing what all that fuss was about and targeting dilithium power supplies as their initial strike. Some techno-babble about time distortion between dimensions or immortal super AIs just running on a vastly different time scale (no need to rush, we've got literally eternity, let's finish this game of checkers before we check up on the beacon that our watchdogs told us about...).

    I think it would have been cool to learn that The Burn actually was caused by the Vulcan/Romulan experiments and the New Federation has to cover that up in order to restore itself and bring the Vulcans back into the fold (with their Romulan cousins).
    Science experiment mistake was sounds like a cool idea. Like during the first atomic bomb test by US scientists, there was that small doubt that they may ignite the atmosphere and destroy the world, but this time it's real
    Like, they could even have kept the Kelpian kid as the B-plot.

    You do the exact same story except that the Burn was caused by the interaction of an experimental drive system with a planet-sized chunk of dilithium, which caused a subspace resonance cascade and caused the overwhelming majority of crystals to shatter. The crew managed to tamp it down after realizing what was happening, knowing that their solution would release a massive amount of radiation that would kill everyone on board. The drive is still on, though, and it will eventually fail entirely, setting off another Burn.

    It's annoying how this easy fix makes it so much better than what we got.

    TOGSolid on
    wWuzwvJ.png
  • CroakerBCCroakerBC TorontoRegistered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    They solved a lot of galactic scale issues for one season, didn't they?
    The Chain: Left leaderless and likely to splinter into sub factions.
    Dilithium poverty: Hey, just found a planet literally made of the stuff.
    The Burn: Turns out it was a psychic kid throwing a tantrum.

    Audience tired of prequel material that doesn't fit with existing timelines: Time travel into the future
    Broken Federation: rebuilding now that they have a planet full of dilithium for power.

    I feel certain that I've missed some. But, damn, that's a busy season.

    Those...
    ...seem rather underwhelming.

    Absolutely underwhelming considering the wide ranging impact they had.
    Granted, I don't know how you write "99.9% of the starships in the known galaxy exploded at the same time" and don't have an underwhelming cause. I mean a god like alien being seems passé in Trek. The average Star Trek captain deals with god like aliens about once a month, and the idea of a single super weapon that could obliterate galactic civilization like that seems kind of dumb given the scale.
    I suppose they could have tied it in with the super extra-dimensional AI from Picard finally getting around to seeing what all that fuss was about and targeting dilithium power supplies as their initial strike. Some techno-babble about time distortion between dimensions or immortal super AIs just running on a vastly different time scale (no need to rush, we've got literally eternity, let's finish this game of checkers before we check up on the beacon that our watchdogs told us about...).

    I think it would have been cool to learn that The Burn actually was caused by the Vulcan/Romulan experiments and the New Federation has to cover that up in order to restore itself and bring the Vulcans back into the fold (with their Romulan cousins).
    Science experiment mistake was sounds like a cool idea. Like during the first atomic bomb test by US scientists, there was that small doubt that they may ignite the atmosphere and destroy the world, but this time it's real
    Like, they could even have kept the Kelpian kid as the B-plot.

    You do the exact same story except that the Burn was caused by the interaction of an experimental drive system with a planet-sized chunk of dilithium, which caused a subspace resonance cascade and caused the overwhelming majority of crystals to shatter. The crew managed to tamp it down after realizing what was happening, knowing that their solution would release a massive amount of radiation that would kill everyone on board. The drive is still on, though, and it will eventually fail entirely, setting off another Burn.

    The kid still gets put on the holodeck to protect him from the radiation wave, and he still has to be removed from it before Discovery can disable the experimental drive and end the threat permanently. The need to disable the drive also gives Adira something to do other than hand the bridge crew a handful of pills. For bonus points have the Sphere intelligence recommend that they stop fucking around with the kid and just fix the thing because *literally play Spock fixing the warp core and dying in WoK here,* since we need to shoehorn references to TOS everywhere.

    I mean, I like this idea, but:
    I really do like that one child, devastated by grief, in their isolation shattered the universe. The pseudo-science is hokey nonsense of course, but that’s hardly unique to this episode, or Discovery. See “Charlie X” for a start, or that one episode of TNG with Amanda Grayson. And Sisko, literally a non-linear traveler from his own future past, probably. Anyway. Leaving aside the hokiness, thematically it works.

    The isolation of the child is mapped to the isolation of the wider universe. As the season slowly stitches parts of that universe back together, they find enough connection to being them back to the child, and have enough connection with each other, and with the Federation past and present, to bring the child back to themselves.

    This was a season about connection, and that last two parter played on that theme beautifully, and gave us the human (er, Kelpien) immediate and affecting emotional stakes, and some crunchy space battle Die Hard madness, mixed with a soupçon of politics (I want more of those Vance negotiating scenes).

    So yeah, you could make it a story about super science gone awry, and you know what, I’d have watched that and enjoyed it. But it wouldn’t have hit me in the gut like those scenes of a child-adult cowering in fear from a monster made of the past, or Saru and that child staring up at the stars.

    Bits of it were a bit daft, but its pieces fit together, and built a really solid Trek finale.

    Really looking forward to S4.

    MaclayPolaris
  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    Saw the episode where the Cardassian terrorist attack victim is gonna cut the baby out of Kira. What an absurdly intense episode.

    DanHibikiShadowen
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Are you ready, kids?! It's some for Mancingtom's Unsolicited Trek Book Reviews #47!

    Today's contestant is:

    zymit4an84ls.jpeg

    Spoiler-Free: It's a decent tie-in and a good start for a rebooted Titan series. The book deftly avoids some of the more flawed aspects of its predecessors, but suffers from a paper-thin antagonist and cleaves too close to Picard's backstory.
    The story takes place in 2386, a year after the attack on Mars and the abandonment of Federation aid to Romulus. The Titan is on the last leg of a diplomatic mission involving the **~secretive~** Jazari, while shadowed by a Romulan warbird. Hijinks ensue.

    It's laser-focused on the Federation's moral decline in the face of the Romulan crisis. On one hand, there's great pathos as the characters navigate a suddenly murky universe, unsure of where their ideals end and political necessity begins. On the other, the book is thematically stifled, leaving it vaguely empty. We learn very little about Riker's crew or life on the Titan. What's there is good, but it doesn't feel like a crew that's been together for 7 years. Hopefully that's fixed in later stories.

    Helek, the villain, is the weakest part of the book. Her single-minded fanaticism and arrogance makes her imminently predictable—just imagine Snidely Whiplash with giant shoulder pads and you can predict 90% of her scenes. She's also vibrantly stupid. That's not a bad thing on it's own, but it drains the climax of tension. Every single move she makes is wrong, obviously wrong, so the battle scenes are less nail-biting chess matches punctuated by awe-inspiring reversals and more wondering how Helek ever made it into the Tal Shiar. Despite my enjoyment of Picard, I can admit the Zhat Vash are terrible villains. They have less depth than Rita Repulsa.

    This flaw is highlighted by the presence of another Romulan character, Commander Medaka. He's brave, compassionate, and open-minded. Like Riker, he navigates competing loyalties to his command, ideals, and the safety of a young family. Had the story cast him as the reluctant villain, the honorable villain, it's themes and dialogue would've leapt off the page. It might've become a reimagining of the Balance of Terror, something that the book obliquely acknowledges towards the end. A neat reference that doesn't make up for lost potential.

    Trek's best villains are either eldritch or layered. Nobody likes Khan because he's strong and nobody's afraid of the Borg because they fly in cubes. I wish more Trek authors would remember that.

    Surprisingly, Thaddeus Troi-Riker might be the highlight. He feels like an explorer, a welcome change of pace from characters who rush from one apocalyptic conflict to the next. I like that his genius is linguistics, sine most sci-fi uses science or math to shorthand "this character is a smarty-pants." The family dynamic feels real, avoiding the usual pitfalls of being saccharine or a perpetual angst machine. The book makes me want to see an alternate timeline Thad who got to grow up. That said, he's meant to be 5 in the book but reads closer to 8 or 9. Writing young kids is hard, but it took me out of the story a few times and I don't see any reason that it couldn't be set a few years later.

    Overall, enjoyable but I wouldn't rush to get it. The best thing to be said is it makes me want another full Titan series, to let characters old and new shine without being shackled to a single plotline.

    Rating: 3 out of 5 Destroyed Runabouts

    wandering
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