Having a hard time squaring “Trump’s own words on tape wouldn’t make a difference” in March or May or with “Trump’s own words on tape might make a difference in November”
No one was voting to make a difference in March, unless you think this information would have cause Trump to change his rhetoric or get impeached.
Stop thinking about Trump!
It might have changed tens of thousands or more of people’s behavior earlier!
If thousands of doctors from around the world didn't already, why would this?
The people in this case most likely to listen to Trumps words are the exact same people going on anti-mask tirades, large country concerts, parties on the beach, and shooting store security guards for trying to make them wear it.
You only need to save 1 life to make releasing the tapes when he made them worth it
Also it’s a tape
You are not wrong. Fuck Woodward for sitting on this, just like fuck Bolton and anyone else that allows Trump to keep getting away with this.
I think that so many of us are jaded. So jaded that we don’t have the energy to spare for much aside from the many major issues of our times. Between COVID and police brutality and the uncertainty and fear of another four years of Trump, we’re all exhausted. At least, I am.
I don’t think anyone is celebrating Woodward timing the release of his book for monetary reasons, when releasing the tapes earlier could have potentially saved many lives, it’s just that we’re happy they got released at all. I wish Woodward released this earlier and if it exists, I hope he burns in hell for not doing so, but he didn’t do that and this is where we are.
Me personally, I hope in the future Woodward suffers severe consequences for this bullshit, but I’m just too focused on there even being a future for me and my family that I don’t have the energy to debate this dude’s cowardice and greed aside from what I’ve already said.
I’m sorry for your friend. I know your relationship must have been meaningful.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
Police in Normal dispersed a crowd of about 70 students who gathered late Tuesday night for a party at an off-campus apartment complex that involved a group of YouTube pranksters called the NELK Boys. They're among a long list of social media influencers who've faced criticism for ignoring COVID precautions.
Around 1,321 ISU students already have tested positive for COVID this semester. That's more than 6% of the student body.
New student cases have slowed in recent days, in part because ISU's on-campus asymptomatic testing sites were closed for four straight days over the Labor Day weekend.
ISU senior Kate McCarthy said she and her roommates are relying on those on-campus testing sites. McCarthy said she has been tested twice (both negative) since returning to Normal from her hometown of Oswego last month. (She signed her off-campus housing lease last fall and couldn't break it, leading to her difficult decision to return to Normal.)
She's also well aware of Bloomington-Normal's high ranking (up to No. 5 at one point) on the list of U.S. metro areas with the most new cases per capita in the past two weeks.
"It's kind of embarrassing in a sense to see our numbers so high and being nationally ranked for that," McCarthy said.
Yay we're making national news!
I'm so glad I can work from home, but I am so worried for my coworkers.
Even if it would have changed nothing, releasing the tapes in February would have been a sign that he wasn't just in it for personal profit
He sat on taped recordings that showed the President of the United States knew there was an airborne pandemic underway so he could release it closer to the election and make bank
This could have changed global strategy as far back as February, it could have motivated earlier lockdowns saving thousands of lives, it could have caused changes in public policy in other countries not privy to that intelligence, or it could have done nothing, but none of that would have made Woodward as much money as releasing it two months before the election
Even if it would have changed nothing, releasing the tapes in February would have been a sign that he wasn't just in it for personal profit
He sat on taped recordings that showed the President of the United States knew there was an airborne pandemic underway so he could release it closer to the election and make bank
This could have changed global strategy as far back as February, it could have motivated earlier lockdowns saving thousands of lives, it could have caused changes in public policy in other countries not privy to that intelligence, or it could have done nothing, but none of that would have made Woodward as much money as releasing it two months before the election
Woodward can get fucked, frankly
I don't think Trump was saying anything that wasn't well known at the time. He just wasn't saying it...which, when you're the freaking President, is kinda important.
edit: like, this is still Trump. When he says "in the air" he isn't referring to "airborne transmission", the medical term.
Even if it would have changed nothing, releasing the tapes in February would have been a sign that he wasn't just in it for personal profit
He sat on taped recordings that showed the President of the United States knew there was an airborne pandemic underway so he could release it closer to the election and make bank
This could have changed global strategy as far back as February, it could have motivated earlier lockdowns saving thousands of lives, it could have caused changes in public policy in other countries not privy to that intelligence, or it could have done nothing, but none of that would have made Woodward as much money as releasing it two months before the election
Woodward can get fucked, frankly
I don't think Trump was saying anything that wasn't well known at the time. He just wasn't saying it...which, when you're the freaking President, is kinda important.
edit: like, this is still Trump. When he says "in the air" he isn't referring to "airborne transmission", the medical term.
We didn't have suggested masking as part of public policy until what, May? That release might have sped that up and put the focus on airborne transmission over physical contact.
It also might have brought home the seriousness to people who don't live in France or Italy. Even our government was saying we were fine with little to no chance of transmission within Canada until March, as I recall. Even buying a week or two extra of lockdown could have saved lives.
This is all academic though, because the guy with this info who could have used it for public good decided to hold onto it until he could make personal gain.
Even if it would have changed nothing, releasing the tapes in February would have been a sign that he wasn't just in it for personal profit
He sat on taped recordings that showed the President of the United States knew there was an airborne pandemic underway so he could release it closer to the election and make bank
This could have changed global strategy as far back as February, it could have motivated earlier lockdowns saving thousands of lives, it could have caused changes in public policy in other countries not privy to that intelligence, or it could have done nothing, but none of that would have made Woodward as much money as releasing it two months before the election
Woodward can get fucked, frankly
I don't think Trump was saying anything that wasn't well known at the time. He just wasn't saying it...which, when you're the freaking President, is kinda important.
edit: like, this is still Trump. When he says "in the air" he isn't referring to "airborne transmission", the medical term.
We didn't have suggested masking as part of public policy until what, May? That release might have sped that up and put the focus on airborne transmission over physical contact.
It also might have brought home the seriousness to people who don't live in France or Italy. Even our government was saying we were fine with little to no chance of transmission within Canada until March, as I recall. Even buying a week or two extra of lockdown could have saved lives.
This is all academic though, because the guy with this info who could have used it for public good decided to hold onto it until he could make personal gain.
The idea that this tape wouldve changed anything is just something I can't get my head around.
Places that took it seriously did so, and way back in feb/March. Places that didn't suffered and people just spread the idea that all the deaths were fake deep state liberal garbage.
How someone can come across anything and think that this will be the straw that breaks the camels back and gets us in order isnt something I can buy into.
People are dying because the lead executive in this country failed and his fan base will never stop supporting him. Others who knew it was serious back when the entire country of Italy was on fire took it seriously.
Even if it would have changed nothing, releasing the tapes in February would have been a sign that he wasn't just in it for personal profit
He sat on taped recordings that showed the President of the United States knew there was an airborne pandemic underway so he could release it closer to the election and make bank
This could have changed global strategy as far back as February, it could have motivated earlier lockdowns saving thousands of lives, it could have caused changes in public policy in other countries not privy to that intelligence, or it could have done nothing, but none of that would have made Woodward as much money as releasing it two months before the election
Woodward can get fucked, frankly
I don't think Trump was saying anything that wasn't well known at the time. He just wasn't saying it...which, when you're the freaking President, is kinda important.
edit: like, this is still Trump. When he says "in the air" he isn't referring to "airborne transmission", the medical term.
We didn't have suggested masking as part of public policy until what, May? That release might have sped that up and put the focus on airborne transmission over physical contact.
It also might have brought home the seriousness to people who don't live in France or Italy. Even our government was saying we were fine with little to no chance of transmission within Canada until March, as I recall. Even buying a week or two extra of lockdown could have saved lives.
This is all academic though, because the guy with this info who could have used it for public good decided to hold onto it until he could make personal gain.
The idea that this tape wouldve changed anything is just something I can't get my head around.
Places that took it seriously did so, and way back in feb/March. Places that didn't suffered and people just spread the idea that all the deaths were fake deep state liberal garbage.
How someone can come across anything and think that this will be the straw that breaks the camels back and gets us in order isnt something I can buy into.
People are dying because the lead executive in this country failed and his fan base will never stop supporting him. Others who knew it was serious back when the entire country of Italy was on fire took it seriously.
We didn't lock down until mid-March. Neither did most other Western countries. It wasn't until the NBA shut down that it suddenly got serious here, either.
You're underestimating how much of a change to the media cycle it would have been for the leader of the United States, who is also an absolute dunce, admitting to underplaying the seriousness of the virus. We might have had lockdowns in February. That could have been the story to do it instead of a guy coughing on microphones.
And even then it isn't really worth defending Woodward saying nothing until now, because it's so easy to see it was done for his own profit, and at a cost we can't fully estimate.
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited September 2020
I don't have to be defending Woodward, I just think putting the blame on dead people caused by Trump on the content of those tapes is just one more thing hes getting an excuse for.
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited September 2020
I still stand by the idea that the only reason this will do anything now is because we're 3 months away from the election instead of 9. And I'm not even certain anything will come of this at all.
It would've done nothing in February. Nothing would have changed.
Woodward may be a conniving piece of shit, but he understands how the American mindset works when it comes to controversy, apparently.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I think a lot of you are missing the point that Trumps comments are only completely dumb and awful in the context of what’s already happened. In February without that context they would have embarrassed him, but not done or changed a single thing whatsoever.
I still stand by the idea that the only reason this will do anything now is because we're 3 months away from the election instead of 9. And I'm not even certain anything will come of this at all.
It would've done nothing in February. Nothing would have changed.
Woodward may be a conniving piece of shit, but he understands how the American mindset works when it comes to controversy, apparently.
And would have done nothing when it comes to policy or actions by the government Trump would have denied or ignored it or triple downed on his "reopen by Easter bs." Governors would still be the ones acting and wouldn't probably till they did out of fear.
No centralized policy or action could occur out of this White House. Fauci is a career official so he has limited power outside saying what he knows. Birx has a bit more. But in the end the lack of an actual central leader as President the overall power of the tapes would have been minimal in February or March or April.
I still stand by the idea that the only reason this will do anything now is because we're 3 months away from the election instead of 9. And I'm not even certain anything will come of this at all.
It would've done nothing in February. Nothing would have changed.
Woodward may be a conniving piece of shit, but he understands how the American mindset works when it comes to controversy, apparently.
And would have done nothing when it comes to policy or actions by the government Trump would have denied or ignored it or triple downed on his "reopen by Easter bs." Governors would still be the ones acting and wouldn't probably till they did out of fear.
No centralized policy or action could occur out of this White House. Fauci is a career official so he has limited power outside saying what he knows. Birx has a bit more. But in the end the lack of an actual central leader as President the overall power of the tapes would have been minimal in February or March or April.
Its wrong to say that nothing COULD have happened. That implies that Trump was a victim of circumstance. That there was nothing he ever could have said, done, or enacted which would have made a difference. Nothing WAS ever going to happen, but, if Trump had literally done nothing other than demand the credit (IE, "Fauci! You are in charge. You get the blame if something goes wrong, I get the credit if it goes right. But, I'll spout whatever you want me to say for the next 12 months") then there was an enormous amount of stuff which could have been done. We literally have no federal policy at all, even an official "We have no policy" policy would have helped states be clear on their own decisions!
I think a lot of you are missing the point that Trumps comments are only completely dumb and awful in the context of what’s already happened. In February without that context they would have embarrassed him, but not done or changed a single thing whatsoever.
That's the reason Woodward gave to defend his inaction, but why wait this long though? He might have made an impact in, say, April, or even May. I'd like to be charitable and say that he wanted to time it closer to the election because he felt getting Trump out of office was the most important thing, but that's already questionable at best when it comes at the cost of lives, and anyway, I don't believe it. I think he was prioritizing book sales.
But anyway, it's a side story, and I'm not terribly concerned with how shitty or not-shitty Bob Woodward is. He did what he did, and it's done. The point is, as stated in the Lincoln Project ads, Trump Knew. I think we all basically knew that he knew because we heard about the rumored intelligence reports, but now it's on tape and the tape is hitting at a key time.
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
The latest iOS update for my phone added a covid exposure notification feature. Tried to enable it but it says it's not available in FL, can't say I'm surprised.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
The latest iOS update for my phone added a covid exposure notification feature. Tried to enable it but it says it's not available in FL, can't say I'm surprised.
It automatically hooks into the Czech Republic's app, so that's nice. And the Czech Republic has gone full mask the fuck up you idiots. 1100 new cases a day for the past two days, 200 new cases in Prague on 400 some tests yesterday. Good times.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Bob Woodward had my quotes for many months. If he thought they were so bad or dangerous, why didn’t he immediately report them in an effort to save lives? Didn’t he have an obligation to do so? No, because he knew they were good and proper answers. Calm, no panic!
The obvious explanation is because he had a book to sell.
White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany defended President Trump on Wednesday after a book by journalist Bob Woodward claimed Trump said he knew the coronavirus was “deadly” but went to great lengths to downplay the virus in public.
“When you are facing insurmountable challenges, it is important to express confidence, it is important to express calm,” McEnany told reporters in a briefing from the White House.
That is like the opposite of what you should be doing if the challenge is insurmountable.
I mean, she's not wrong to a degree; When you are facing a crisis the guy at the head of the totem doing a press confererence where he's panicing and talking about how utterly fucked you are isn't going to help anyone.
The issue is that trump's response was to simultaneously downplay the threat of the virus while undermining critical steps in preventing it's spread (IE his impatience with the shutdown, UI shenanigans and mask shaming).
As to "Insermountable"... the disease was always going to be bad in the US; your healthcare system isn't set up to handle this kind of catastrophe and the republican party would have balked at any sort of united response to the outbreak outside of platitudes and tax cuts for the wealthy to say nothing of how a sizable chunk of your nation is high on american exceptionalism and wouldn't grasp that the virus is a real threat; had trump taken it more seriously you *might* have saved around 60-70k but you'd still be facing a shit load of deaths and probably violent uprisings from right wing groups unironically screaming "FREEDOM!"
"1400+ SICK?! YOULL RUN OUT OF STUDENTS BEFORE I RUN OUT OF PAINT" is the newest message by UofSC's student "COVID messenger." Up by at least 6:34 AM on Russell House this morning and staff was quick to cover it up.
Senator Kennedy of LA was on Fox News this morning. He said that he's heard from so called "experts" on Covid19 and that they make late night tv psychic hotlines seem reputable, so what you have to do right now is ignore these experts who are making predictions.
Senator Kennedy of LA was on Fox News this morning. He said that he's heard from so called "experts" on Covid19 and that they make late night tv psychic hotlines seem reputable, so what you have to do right now is ignore these experts who are making predictions.
The President says he's an expert on everything, so there's a grain of truth there. Just one grain, though.
I'm ok saying that one less thing in the mountain of things to hit him with on the leadup to November is fine if getting that info out early might have saved some of those 200000 lives.
I'm ok saying that one less thing in the mountain of things to hit him with on the leadup to November is fine if getting that info out early might have saved some of those 200000 lives.
I'm still torn on this.
A) Woodward was apparently in there from just after impeachment until July. The possibility that this administration would admit actual crimes to him was not zero, and there was potential public value in his presence there.
At the time, Trump could have just claimed info he had since received has changed his position, or the info he got before making those statements to Woodward was wrong because China, or Democrats, or whatever. Releasing the audio doesn't necessarily alter the trajectory of his message since this began.
Counterpoint:
A) Bob Woodward doesn't seem to have really been sniffing around very hard.
B} Still may have helped convince a few people in key places. Ex: Maybe DeBlasio tells everyone to mask up sooner if even Trump is saying it in private.
ArbitraryDescriptor on
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
I'm ok saying that one less thing in the mountain of things to hit him with on the leadup to November is fine if getting that info out early might have saved some of those 200000 lives.
I'm still torn on this.
A) Woodward was apparently in there from just after impeachment until July. The possibility that this administration would admit actual crimes to him was not zero, and there was potential public value in his presence there.
At the time, Trump could have just claimed info he had since received has changed his position, or the info he got before making those statements to Woodward was wrong because China, or Democrats, or whatever. Releasing the audio doesn't necessarily alter the trajectory of his message since this began.
Counterpoint:
A) Bob Woodward doesn't seem to have really been sniffing around very hard. B} Still may have helped convince a few people in key places. Ex: Maybe DeBlasio tells everyone to mask up sooner if even Trump is saying it in private.
The evidence was already out there in the form of people dying in Italian hospital hallways. People who wanted to look could see what was likely to happen. If anyone was factoring Trump's opinion into it, then they were being some kind of willfully ignorant.
(I mean, not that it really matters, since the end result is what we care about here, but I am skeptical that anyone really would have changed their behavior. The evidence was there, people ignoring it were doing it because of political reasons totally unrelated to Trump, at least on the Democratic side.)
White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany defended President Trump on Wednesday after a book by journalist Bob Woodward claimed Trump said he knew the coronavirus was “deadly” but went to great lengths to downplay the virus in public.
“When you are facing insurmountable challenges, it is important to express confidence, it is important to express calm,” McEnany told reporters in a briefing from the White House.
That is like the opposite of what you should be doing if the challenge is insurmountable.
I mean, she's not wrong to a degree; When you are facing a crisis the guy at the head of the totem doing a press confererence where he's panicing and talking about how utterly fucked you are isn't going to help anyone.
The issue is that trump's response was to simultaneously downplay the threat of the virus while undermining critical steps in preventing it's spread (IE his impatience with the shutdown, UI shenanigans and mask shaming).
As to "Insermountable"... the disease was always going to be bad in the US; your healthcare system isn't set up to handle this kind of catastrophe and the republican party would have balked at any sort of united response to the outbreak outside of platitudes and tax cuts for the wealthy to say nothing of how a sizable chunk of your nation is high on american exceptionalism and wouldn't grasp that the virus is a real threat; had trump taken it more seriously you *might* have saved around 60-70k but you'd still be facing a shit load of deaths and probably violent uprisings from right wing groups unironically screaming "FREEDOM!"
There is a path you can walk between inciting panic and its just going to go away like magic but trump chose to not walk it. Look at how obama handled the ebola stuff they didn't pull any punches but also were doing everything they could to keep everybody from panicking while not lying to people. Basically all trump needed to do is act like most powerful countries acted and we would probably have tens of thousands of people still alive.
I'm ok saying that one less thing in the mountain of things to hit him with on the leadup to November is fine if getting that info out early might have saved some of those 200000 lives.
I'm still torn on this.
A) Woodward was apparently in there from just after impeachment until July. The possibility that this administration would admit actual crimes to him was not zero, and there was potential public value in his presence there.
At the time, Trump could have just claimed info he had since received has changed his position, or the info he got before making those statements to Woodward was wrong because China, or Democrats, or whatever. Releasing the audio doesn't necessarily alter the trajectory of his message since this began.
Counterpoint:
A) Bob Woodward doesn't seem to have really been sniffing around very hard. B} Still may have helped convince a few people in key places. Ex: Maybe DeBlasio tells everyone to mask up sooner if even Trump is saying it in private.
The evidence was already out there in the form of people dying in Italian hospital hallways. People who wanted to look could see what was likely to happen. If anyone was factoring Trump's opinion into it, then they were being some kind of willfully ignorant.
(I mean, not that it really matters, since the end result is what we care about here, but I am skeptical that anyone really would have changed their behavior. The evidence was there, people ignoring it were doing it because of political reasons totally unrelated to Trump, at least on the Democratic side.)
I'm thinking the effect would be derived from state/local officials being shamed into becoming slightly more pro-active when the media accused them of taking a page out of Trump's newly-revealed playbook and downplaying the virus.
It's not a lot of pressure, but it's a little more. Enough to help? Maybe, but I'm leaning pretty heavily on the benefit of hindsight here.
A prior version of this thread dedicated a huge portion of its pages debating the value of masks (thanks CDC), long after the February tape was made and maybe even after the March tape (but the February tape is the one to key in on, not his March admission of downplaying it)
The lives lost aren’t just Trump followers- some government executives might have acted sooner, some businesses might have gone remote sooner, some people might have changed behavior sooner, etc
One week delay of action cost 36k lives
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I ZimbraWorst song, played on ugliest guitarRegistered Userregular
Classes are going online and sports practices are halted for at least two weeks. The county is telling people who live and work downtown that they should assume they've been exposed.
There was no point in the past six months at which re-opening campuses was a remotely safe or moral thing to do and we're just starting to see the consequences of those monstrous decisions.
White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany defended President Trump on Wednesday after a book by journalist Bob Woodward claimed Trump said he knew the coronavirus was “deadly” but went to great lengths to downplay the virus in public.
“When you are facing insurmountable challenges, it is important to express confidence, it is important to express calm,” McEnany told reporters in a briefing from the White House.
That is like the opposite of what you should be doing if the challenge is insurmountable.
I mean, she's not wrong to a degree; When you are facing a crisis the guy at the head of the totem doing a press confererence where he's panicing and talking about how utterly fucked you are isn't going to help anyone.
The issue is that trump's response was to simultaneously downplay the threat of the virus while undermining critical steps in preventing it's spread (IE his impatience with the shutdown, UI shenanigans and mask shaming).
As to "Insermountable"... the disease was always going to be bad in the US; your healthcare system isn't set up to handle this kind of catastrophe and the republican party would have balked at any sort of united response to the outbreak outside of platitudes and tax cuts for the wealthy to say nothing of how a sizable chunk of your nation is high on american exceptionalism and wouldn't grasp that the virus is a real threat; had trump taken it more seriously you *might* have saved around 60-70k but you'd still be facing a shit load of deaths and probably violent uprisings from right wing groups unironically screaming "FREEDOM!"
There is a path you can walk between inciting panic and its just going to go away like magic but trump chose to not walk it. Look at how obama handled the ebola stuff they didn't pull any punches but also were doing everything they could to keep everybody from panicking while not lying to people. Basically all trump needed to do is act like most powerful countries acted and we would probably have tens of thousands of people still alive.
Which is why I say that there is a degree of truth as opposed to saying she's completely right.
Because trump did cock this up by prioritizing the health of the economy and his re-election campaign over the health and safety of the american people and if there is any justice in the world he will supplant benedict arnold in the american psyche as the definition of "traitor."
White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany defended President Trump on Wednesday after a book by journalist Bob Woodward claimed Trump said he knew the coronavirus was “deadly” but went to great lengths to downplay the virus in public.
“When you are facing insurmountable challenges, it is important to express confidence, it is important to express calm,” McEnany told reporters in a briefing from the White House.
That is like the opposite of what you should be doing if the challenge is insurmountable.
I mean, she's not wrong to a degree; When you are facing a crisis the guy at the head of the totem doing a press confererence where he's panicing and talking about how utterly fucked you are isn't going to help anyone.
The issue is that trump's response was to simultaneously downplay the threat of the virus while undermining critical steps in preventing it's spread (IE his impatience with the shutdown, UI shenanigans and mask shaming).
As to "Insermountable"... the disease was always going to be bad in the US; your healthcare system isn't set up to handle this kind of catastrophe and the republican party would have balked at any sort of united response to the outbreak outside of platitudes and tax cuts for the wealthy to say nothing of how a sizable chunk of your nation is high on american exceptionalism and wouldn't grasp that the virus is a real threat; had trump taken it more seriously you *might* have saved around 60-70k but you'd still be facing a shit load of deaths and probably violent uprisings from right wing groups unironically screaming "FREEDOM!"
There is a path you can walk between inciting panic and its just going to go away like magic but trump chose to not walk it. Look at how obama handled the ebola stuff they didn't pull any punches but also were doing everything they could to keep everybody from panicking while not lying to people. Basically all trump needed to do is act like most powerful countries acted and we would probably have tens of thousands of people still alive.
Which is why I say that there is a degree of truth as opposed to saying she's completely right.
Because trump did cock this up by prioritizing the health of the economy and his re-election campaign over the health and safety of the american people and if there is any justice in the world he will supplant benedict arnold in the american psyche as the definition of "traitor."
Only problem there is, did 40+% of the American Public think Benedict Arnold was not just not a traitor, but a hero delivered by god?
Was there an active CulperAnon movement for Benny?
No? Then I don't see Trump being anywhere near the pariah that Arnold became.
White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany defended President Trump on Wednesday after a book by journalist Bob Woodward claimed Trump said he knew the coronavirus was “deadly” but went to great lengths to downplay the virus in public.
“When you are facing insurmountable challenges, it is important to express confidence, it is important to express calm,” McEnany told reporters in a briefing from the White House.
That is like the opposite of what you should be doing if the challenge is insurmountable.
I mean, she's not wrong to a degree; When you are facing a crisis the guy at the head of the totem doing a press confererence where he's panicing and talking about how utterly fucked you are isn't going to help anyone.
The issue is that trump's response was to simultaneously downplay the threat of the virus while undermining critical steps in preventing it's spread (IE his impatience with the shutdown, UI shenanigans and mask shaming).
As to "Insermountable"... the disease was always going to be bad in the US; your healthcare system isn't set up to handle this kind of catastrophe and the republican party would have balked at any sort of united response to the outbreak outside of platitudes and tax cuts for the wealthy to say nothing of how a sizable chunk of your nation is high on american exceptionalism and wouldn't grasp that the virus is a real threat; had trump taken it more seriously you *might* have saved around 60-70k but you'd still be facing a shit load of deaths and probably violent uprisings from right wing groups unironically screaming "FREEDOM!"
There is a path you can walk between inciting panic and its just going to go away like magic but trump chose to not walk it. Look at how obama handled the ebola stuff they didn't pull any punches but also were doing everything they could to keep everybody from panicking while not lying to people. Basically all trump needed to do is act like most powerful countries acted and we would probably have tens of thousands of people still alive.
Which is why I say that there is a degree of truth as opposed to saying she's completely right.
Because trump did cock this up by prioritizing the health of the economy and his re-election campaign over the health and safety of the american people and if there is any justice in the world he will supplant benedict arnold in the american psyche as the definition of "traitor."
Only problem there is, did 40+% of the American Public think Benedict Arnold was not just not a traitor, but a hero delivered by god?
Was there an active CulperAnon movement for Benny?
No? Then I don't see Trump being anywhere near the pariah that Arnold became.
I mean, yes, Benedict Arnold had a lot of fans. The US War of Independance was a lot more like US Civil War 1 than your history books like to portray.
White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany defended President Trump on Wednesday after a book by journalist Bob Woodward claimed Trump said he knew the coronavirus was “deadly” but went to great lengths to downplay the virus in public.
“When you are facing insurmountable challenges, it is important to express confidence, it is important to express calm,” McEnany told reporters in a briefing from the White House.
That is like the opposite of what you should be doing if the challenge is insurmountable.
I mean, she's not wrong to a degree; When you are facing a crisis the guy at the head of the totem doing a press confererence where he's panicing and talking about how utterly fucked you are isn't going to help anyone.
The issue is that trump's response was to simultaneously downplay the threat of the virus while undermining critical steps in preventing it's spread (IE his impatience with the shutdown, UI shenanigans and mask shaming).
As to "Insermountable"... the disease was always going to be bad in the US; your healthcare system isn't set up to handle this kind of catastrophe and the republican party would have balked at any sort of united response to the outbreak outside of platitudes and tax cuts for the wealthy to say nothing of how a sizable chunk of your nation is high on american exceptionalism and wouldn't grasp that the virus is a real threat; had trump taken it more seriously you *might* have saved around 60-70k but you'd still be facing a shit load of deaths and probably violent uprisings from right wing groups unironically screaming "FREEDOM!"
There is a path you can walk between inciting panic and its just going to go away like magic but trump chose to not walk it. Look at how obama handled the ebola stuff they didn't pull any punches but also were doing everything they could to keep everybody from panicking while not lying to people. Basically all trump needed to do is act like most powerful countries acted and we would probably have tens of thousands of people still alive.
Which is why I say that there is a degree of truth as opposed to saying she's completely right.
Because trump did cock this up by prioritizing the health of the economy and his re-election campaign over the health and safety of the american people and if there is any justice in the world he will supplant benedict arnold in the american psyche as the definition of "traitor."
Only problem there is, did 40+% of the American Public think Benedict Arnold was not just not a traitor, but a hero delivered by god?
Was there an active CulperAnon movement for Benny?
No? Then I don't see Trump being anywhere near the pariah that Arnold became.
I mean, yes, Benedict Arnold had a lot of fans. The US War of Independance was a lot more like US Civil War 1 than your history books like to portray.
Got a good starting point? Either physical or online?
And hey, if there's a precedent for Trump being pariahed despite his current level (and depth) of support, well that's comforting.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I'm ok saying that one less thing in the mountain of things to hit him with on the leadup to November is fine if getting that info out early might have saved some of those 200000 lives.
I'm still torn on this.
A) Woodward was apparently in there from just after impeachment until July. The possibility that this administration would admit actual crimes to him was not zero, and there was potential public value in his presence there.
At the time, Trump could have just claimed info he had since received has changed his position, or the info he got before making those statements to Woodward was wrong because China, or Democrats, or whatever. Releasing the audio doesn't necessarily alter the trajectory of his message since this began.
Counterpoint:
A) Bob Woodward doesn't seem to have really been sniffing around very hard.
B} Still may have helped convince a few people in key places. Ex: Maybe DeBlasio tells everyone to mask up sooner if even Trump is saying it in private.
I see the situation like this.
In February the tape comes out, Woodward loses whatever access that lets Trump say such dumb things and then we have cycles of the usual drivel plus media blowhards defending the president. It's MUCH, MUCH easier to deflect the entire thing in February, because America hasn't hit the disaster that they're in now. Woodward is "scaremongering" while the President is being "realistic" and they'll use the exact same line about calling for calm. Because we know Birx and others on the coronavirus task force have spines of Gelatin, with only Fauci slightly disagreeing with the president at times, they do nothing and will evade/not take questions on it.
Maybe somewhere, somehow, a few businesses or a state governor listens but this is also from President Trump - a known nitwit and idiot who says one thing one day and the complete opposite the next day. Who here really thinks Trump, of all people, is respected enough to actually have people listen to him at the time? His supporters don't care and will justify whatever way the wind was going, because Trump isn't going to change his February tune - he's still going to allow the virus to run rampant and pray it doesn't have a human cost to save the economy. In hindsight, which we have now, this was obviously a bad thing but he had immense support on doing this from many governors in the US at the time.
Nothing would change. Absolutely 100% completely nothing.
Now dropping this a handful of weeks off from the election? This could be Trumps "But her emails!" moment for the election. After the fact, with hindsight, we can easily see his opinions and thoughts as a crass dereliction of duty. Nearly 200,000 American's dead, easily the worst response to the pandemic in the entire world in total cases/deaths and an obviously incompetent administration. Now we can add on willfully lying to the American public and literally betting on fantasies about the virus going away instead of science. It's not just going to get buried in the media by some other story for a while and Trump cannot deflect this, because we have the obvious numbers and reality of what happened to weigh down Trumps words.
Reality caught up to Trump and his absurd lying, but Woodwards revelations are only so powerful combined with months of repeated lying, holding packed in mass rallies despite knowing otherwise and the sad reality of 6 million+ infections and nearly 200,000 deaths. This shakes the heavens because of what we know about what happened, not because it would have changed things at the time and you can already see Trump picking up on this defense now. He's trying to claim exactly what some in this thread are, which is why didn't Woodward release this news at the time if it was so bad? See, FAKE NEWS!!!!! This is ignoring the context.
I'm going to be blunt: The only thing that would have saved American lives was not a tape by a Journalist. It was a competent and well prepared response to an unprecedented pandemic by a competent administration. Many countries around the world have succeeded at this, like Australia, New Zealand, Germany and so on. Those run by your far right strongman idiots like Johnson and Trump? Well they completely and utterly fucked it up.
Want to save American lives? Vote Trump and his cronies out. It's the ONLY way. This disaster was set in motion when the worst and most incompetent president in US history was elected in 2016. Not because tapes of his usual incompetent blatherings were not released.
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You are not wrong. Fuck Woodward for sitting on this, just like fuck Bolton and anyone else that allows Trump to keep getting away with this.
I think that so many of us are jaded. So jaded that we don’t have the energy to spare for much aside from the many major issues of our times. Between COVID and police brutality and the uncertainty and fear of another four years of Trump, we’re all exhausted. At least, I am.
I don’t think anyone is celebrating Woodward timing the release of his book for monetary reasons, when releasing the tapes earlier could have potentially saved many lives, it’s just that we’re happy they got released at all. I wish Woodward released this earlier and if it exists, I hope he burns in hell for not doing so, but he didn’t do that and this is where we are.
Me personally, I hope in the future Woodward suffers severe consequences for this bullshit, but I’m just too focused on there even being a future for me and my family that I don’t have the energy to debate this dude’s cowardice and greed aside from what I’ve already said.
I’m sorry for your friend. I know your relationship must have been meaningful.
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Mine!
Yay we're making national news!
I'm so glad I can work from home, but I am so worried for my coworkers.
He sat on taped recordings that showed the President of the United States knew there was an airborne pandemic underway so he could release it closer to the election and make bank
This could have changed global strategy as far back as February, it could have motivated earlier lockdowns saving thousands of lives, it could have caused changes in public policy in other countries not privy to that intelligence, or it could have done nothing, but none of that would have made Woodward as much money as releasing it two months before the election
Woodward can get fucked, frankly
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I don't think Trump was saying anything that wasn't well known at the time. He just wasn't saying it...which, when you're the freaking President, is kinda important.
edit: like, this is still Trump. When he says "in the air" he isn't referring to "airborne transmission", the medical term.
We didn't have suggested masking as part of public policy until what, May? That release might have sped that up and put the focus on airborne transmission over physical contact.
It also might have brought home the seriousness to people who don't live in France or Italy. Even our government was saying we were fine with little to no chance of transmission within Canada until March, as I recall. Even buying a week or two extra of lockdown could have saved lives.
This is all academic though, because the guy with this info who could have used it for public good decided to hold onto it until he could make personal gain.
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3rd grade teacher in South Carolina passed away from the virus. She was 28. Sadly we're just getting started.
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The idea that this tape wouldve changed anything is just something I can't get my head around.
Places that took it seriously did so, and way back in feb/March. Places that didn't suffered and people just spread the idea that all the deaths were fake deep state liberal garbage.
How someone can come across anything and think that this will be the straw that breaks the camels back and gets us in order isnt something I can buy into.
People are dying because the lead executive in this country failed and his fan base will never stop supporting him. Others who knew it was serious back when the entire country of Italy was on fire took it seriously.
We didn't lock down until mid-March. Neither did most other Western countries. It wasn't until the NBA shut down that it suddenly got serious here, either.
You're underestimating how much of a change to the media cycle it would have been for the leader of the United States, who is also an absolute dunce, admitting to underplaying the seriousness of the virus. We might have had lockdowns in February. That could have been the story to do it instead of a guy coughing on microphones.
And even then it isn't really worth defending Woodward saying nothing until now, because it's so easy to see it was done for his own profit, and at a cost we can't fully estimate.
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I can be mad at two people at one time. Like its not a zero sum thing.
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It would've done nothing in February. Nothing would have changed.
Woodward may be a conniving piece of shit, but he understands how the American mindset works when it comes to controversy, apparently.
And would have done nothing when it comes to policy or actions by the government Trump would have denied or ignored it or triple downed on his "reopen by Easter bs." Governors would still be the ones acting and wouldn't probably till they did out of fear.
No centralized policy or action could occur out of this White House. Fauci is a career official so he has limited power outside saying what he knows. Birx has a bit more. But in the end the lack of an actual central leader as President the overall power of the tapes would have been minimal in February or March or April.
Its wrong to say that nothing COULD have happened. That implies that Trump was a victim of circumstance. That there was nothing he ever could have said, done, or enacted which would have made a difference. Nothing WAS ever going to happen, but, if Trump had literally done nothing other than demand the credit (IE, "Fauci! You are in charge. You get the blame if something goes wrong, I get the credit if it goes right. But, I'll spout whatever you want me to say for the next 12 months") then there was an enormous amount of stuff which could have been done. We literally have no federal policy at all, even an official "We have no policy" policy would have helped states be clear on their own decisions!
That's the reason Woodward gave to defend his inaction, but why wait this long though? He might have made an impact in, say, April, or even May. I'd like to be charitable and say that he wanted to time it closer to the election because he felt getting Trump out of office was the most important thing, but that's already questionable at best when it comes at the cost of lives, and anyway, I don't believe it. I think he was prioritizing book sales.
But anyway, it's a side story, and I'm not terribly concerned with how shitty or not-shitty Bob Woodward is. He did what he did, and it's done. The point is, as stated in the Lincoln Project ads, Trump Knew. I think we all basically knew that he knew because we heard about the rumored intelligence reports, but now it's on tape and the tape is hitting at a key time.
It automatically hooks into the Czech Republic's app, so that's nice. And the Czech Republic has gone full mask the fuck up you idiots. 1100 new cases a day for the past two days, 200 new cases in Prague on 400 some tests yesterday. Good times.
“Why didn’t anyone prevent me from killing thousands of people?”
Like, screw Woodward and all, but for fucks sake I hate Trump and his abuser attitude so much.
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I mean, she's not wrong to a degree; When you are facing a crisis the guy at the head of the totem doing a press confererence where he's panicing and talking about how utterly fucked you are isn't going to help anyone.
The issue is that trump's response was to simultaneously downplay the threat of the virus while undermining critical steps in preventing it's spread (IE his impatience with the shutdown, UI shenanigans and mask shaming).
As to "Insermountable"... the disease was always going to be bad in the US; your healthcare system isn't set up to handle this kind of catastrophe and the republican party would have balked at any sort of united response to the outbreak outside of platitudes and tax cuts for the wealthy to say nothing of how a sizable chunk of your nation is high on american exceptionalism and wouldn't grasp that the virus is a real threat; had trump taken it more seriously you *might* have saved around 60-70k but you'd still be facing a shit load of deaths and probably violent uprisings from right wing groups unironically screaming "FREEDOM!"
Yeah, we're at over a 1000 cases at USCar as well. Incidentally, they have at least one brave soul graffiting the student center regularly:
I'm still torn on this.
A) Woodward was apparently in there from just after impeachment until July. The possibility that this administration would admit actual crimes to him was not zero, and there was potential public value in his presence there.
Counterpoint:
A) Bob Woodward doesn't seem to have really been sniffing around very hard.
B} Still may have helped convince a few people in key places. Ex: Maybe DeBlasio tells everyone to mask up sooner if even Trump is saying it in private.
The evidence was already out there in the form of people dying in Italian hospital hallways. People who wanted to look could see what was likely to happen. If anyone was factoring Trump's opinion into it, then they were being some kind of willfully ignorant.
(I mean, not that it really matters, since the end result is what we care about here, but I am skeptical that anyone really would have changed their behavior. The evidence was there, people ignoring it were doing it because of political reasons totally unrelated to Trump, at least on the Democratic side.)
There is a path you can walk between inciting panic and its just going to go away like magic but trump chose to not walk it. Look at how obama handled the ebola stuff they didn't pull any punches but also were doing everything they could to keep everybody from panicking while not lying to people. Basically all trump needed to do is act like most powerful countries acted and we would probably have tens of thousands of people still alive.
Geoff Bennett: "It's on tape. It's on tape, Kayleigh."
I'll never stop laughing lol
I'm thinking the effect would be derived from state/local officials being shamed into becoming slightly more pro-active when the media accused them of taking a page out of Trump's newly-revealed playbook and downplaying the virus.
It's not a lot of pressure, but it's a little more. Enough to help? Maybe, but I'm leaning pretty heavily on the benefit of hindsight here.
The lives lost aren’t just Trump followers- some government executives might have acted sooner, some businesses might have gone remote sooner, some people might have changed behavior sooner, etc
One week delay of action cost 36k lives
Classes are going online and sports practices are halted for at least two weeks. The county is telling people who live and work downtown that they should assume they've been exposed.
There was no point in the past six months at which re-opening campuses was a remotely safe or moral thing to do and we're just starting to see the consequences of those monstrous decisions.
Which is why I say that there is a degree of truth as opposed to saying she's completely right.
Because trump did cock this up by prioritizing the health of the economy and his re-election campaign over the health and safety of the american people and if there is any justice in the world he will supplant benedict arnold in the american psyche as the definition of "traitor."
As of this morning, does not seem to be functional for Maryland yet.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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Only problem there is, did 40+% of the American Public think Benedict Arnold was not just not a traitor, but a hero delivered by god?
Was there an active CulperAnon movement for Benny?
No? Then I don't see Trump being anywhere near the pariah that Arnold became.
I mean, yes, Benedict Arnold had a lot of fans. The US War of Independance was a lot more like US Civil War 1 than your history books like to portray.
Got a good starting point? Either physical or online?
And hey, if there's a precedent for Trump being pariahed despite his current level (and depth) of support, well that's comforting.
I see the situation like this.
In February the tape comes out, Woodward loses whatever access that lets Trump say such dumb things and then we have cycles of the usual drivel plus media blowhards defending the president. It's MUCH, MUCH easier to deflect the entire thing in February, because America hasn't hit the disaster that they're in now. Woodward is "scaremongering" while the President is being "realistic" and they'll use the exact same line about calling for calm. Because we know Birx and others on the coronavirus task force have spines of Gelatin, with only Fauci slightly disagreeing with the president at times, they do nothing and will evade/not take questions on it.
Maybe somewhere, somehow, a few businesses or a state governor listens but this is also from President Trump - a known nitwit and idiot who says one thing one day and the complete opposite the next day. Who here really thinks Trump, of all people, is respected enough to actually have people listen to him at the time? His supporters don't care and will justify whatever way the wind was going, because Trump isn't going to change his February tune - he's still going to allow the virus to run rampant and pray it doesn't have a human cost to save the economy. In hindsight, which we have now, this was obviously a bad thing but he had immense support on doing this from many governors in the US at the time.
Nothing would change. Absolutely 100% completely nothing.
Now dropping this a handful of weeks off from the election? This could be Trumps "But her emails!" moment for the election. After the fact, with hindsight, we can easily see his opinions and thoughts as a crass dereliction of duty. Nearly 200,000 American's dead, easily the worst response to the pandemic in the entire world in total cases/deaths and an obviously incompetent administration. Now we can add on willfully lying to the American public and literally betting on fantasies about the virus going away instead of science. It's not just going to get buried in the media by some other story for a while and Trump cannot deflect this, because we have the obvious numbers and reality of what happened to weigh down Trumps words.
Reality caught up to Trump and his absurd lying, but Woodwards revelations are only so powerful combined with months of repeated lying, holding packed in mass rallies despite knowing otherwise and the sad reality of 6 million+ infections and nearly 200,000 deaths. This shakes the heavens because of what we know about what happened, not because it would have changed things at the time and you can already see Trump picking up on this defense now. He's trying to claim exactly what some in this thread are, which is why didn't Woodward release this news at the time if it was so bad? See, FAKE NEWS!!!!! This is ignoring the context.
I'm going to be blunt: The only thing that would have saved American lives was not a tape by a Journalist. It was a competent and well prepared response to an unprecedented pandemic by a competent administration. Many countries around the world have succeeded at this, like Australia, New Zealand, Germany and so on. Those run by your far right strongman idiots like Johnson and Trump? Well they completely and utterly fucked it up.
Want to save American lives? Vote Trump and his cronies out. It's the ONLY way. This disaster was set in motion when the worst and most incompetent president in US history was elected in 2016. Not because tapes of his usual incompetent blatherings were not released.