You're telling me that you're giving me back all the Monkey Ball party games that my family and friends played together all through high school - Soccer, Baseball, MONKEY TARGET! - but NOT adding any sort of online play so that we can actually get together online and play them together again now that we all moved away?!
Nothing like a 20 year celebration that doesn't account for anything that's changed in 20 years...
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
I dunno, it clearly bothers a lot of people very deeply and impacts their ability to enjoy BotW, but the specific complaints about durability here are almost completely alien to my own experiences and I just don't have the part of my brain that makes me hate the idea of running out of sword ammo and switching to lance ammo for a bit or feel the need to bare hand fight weapon shrines to ensure my oversized inventory has maxed out numbers of maxed out gear.
That comparison only works if you can repair the weapons.
The gun doesn't vanish when you run out of ammo. When you find ammo again you get to use that exact same gun.
Not saying that should matter to you or anything. But that is probably the disconnect in understanding what issues people have.
Broken weapons =/= ammo for guns.
Which is why just having a decent repair option goes a long way. And still leads to the potential situations that make the system interesting. Like you venture deep and run out of repair kits. Oh shit, your rad sword is broken mid combat. Now you have to snag some garbo weapon of the ground to fight it out. Pick up something slightly better off an enemy and finish off the little dungeon. Whew! That was a close one! But exciting! And now you can go back to town and fix your favorite weapon up and it's not just gone forever. And if you find a cooler weapon in that dungeon you can actually keep that now!
Rewarding!
That just sounds like the inventory busywork of bad durability systems imo. If you can avoid the durability system, remove it. If you have one, it needs to be baked in as a relevant part of your game.
Replacing weapons and/or repairing weapons sounds like the opposite of ignoring durability? You either do the exact same inventory management that exists in BotW now, or instead fill your inventory with some kinda repair orb doohickeys, or some combination of the two that feels good to you or pops up occasionally just through the nature of the game. Now I am not a game designer and am just riffing a random idea off my head. Obviously it would be exactly this and should not be taken to mean that. A game designer would spend a lot of time working on the details to have things balanced and make sense.
Also I never really understand that when a suggestion is "hey how about this thing that let's you play exactly the same as you currently do and say you enjoy but also let's another group of people play their way" is followed by just a flat out no. Like the inventory management and system of BotW(that is being said is good) would still be there... so..?
The ability to easily field fix durability with an item is giving the player the ability to ignore the system/turn it into the usual boring gold-sink. If durability is to be meaningful, the game has to actually make it so that the risk of running out of durability is real and not just a function of whether you remembered to stock up on supplies.
Games are often about creating tailored experiences for players. Undercutting those experiences or offering flexibility to avoid them is not always a good thing; this is why giving players shields in Dark Souls right at the start was probably a bad thing when the game really sucks played with a shield.
There's plenty of ways to make repairing an actual cost though and limit and make it meaningful in the same ways though. Again, I'm not going to magically design the perfect system right here in 5 minutes on a message board. But just by putting limits on what you can carry and still allowing for people to just pick up weapons can be balanced around to make a system that provides both.
the comparison does work because they are the same. you could reconceptualize the ammo system in doom to where your weapons vanish and instead of finding ammo you find the weapon again with that amount of ammo loaded and it would function the exact same as it does now.
If you have to change the system you are comparing it to to make it work then it isn't an apt comparison lol. That's the exact opposite of what that means.
Again, when I run out of ammo I don't lose my gun. I continue to have that gun forever. If my sword breaks that sword is gone. Keeping the same thing is, quite literally, not the same as picking up a new thing.
The comparison works for grenades.
Grenades are not the same as guns. They are distinctly considered and accepted to be very different than guns. They are consumables. Guns are not consumables. Unless you make a game where guns are consumables! But that's a different system.
they are the same. they're literally the exact same weapon. if I kill break my lynel sword, then go kill another lynel and pick up his sword it is the exact same as finding new ammo for a gun. there is no difference. a gun without ammo is the same thing as not having the gun.
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BaidolI will hold him offEscape while you canRegistered Userregular
Independent of this BotW talk, I'll continue to wait for the Skies of Arcadia sequel.
If the durability system didn’t exist, you would most likely just have ‘sword’ and not 10 different versions of ‘sword’
Which is what a lot of people want! But your inventory in botw was also in itself a marker of progress and experience in the world
You can still have ten versions of sword. Dark Souls manages to include variations of the same weapon type that are different enough in some way to make them unique to each other.
But yeah I want to collect a copy of every weapon, most of which are unique so there's only one copy to get, and I want finding a new weapon or armor to be exciting as I check out how it looks and what it does.
i imagine the simple solution is to just make each kind of weapon repairable if you have specific materials on hand, as opposed to a simple moneysink
I thought about that but it's actually less practical than just having new weapons drop because of adding an extra layer of 'crafting', and the sheer number of weapons in botw for both thematic and mechanical reasons
I'm pretty sure the only thing that keeps me from playing PoE is that I hate the heavy focus on seasons or whatever they call it. It's the same with Diablo 3. I don't want to remake my character every few months.
There are permanent leagues, Standard and Hardcore, where stuff isn't wiped. It doesn't get the new league content, like the temporary leagues, but that stuff gets added to Standard/Hardcore when those leagues are over. It gets everything else though (new skills, new endgame stuff, balance/reworks, etc.) when it's released, just not the league-specific doohickies./
Also, when a new league is over, all the characters get sent over to Standard, so you don't lose your characters. You can just keep playing them, they aren't deleted.
i imagine the simple solution is to just make each kind of weapon repairable if you have specific materials on hand, as opposed to a simple moneysink
I thought about that but it's actually less practical than just having new weapons drop because of adding an extra layer of 'crafting', and the sheer number of weapons in botw for both thematic and mechanical reasons
yeah but if you want you can keep your favorite weapons this way and it's a mechanic you're not forced to engage with if you like playing sword roulette
i didn't mind the moment to moment feeling of the degradation system in breath of the wild, EXCEPT:
-in the mid-to-late game, or from the very start in hard mode, it incentivized you to ignore fights, because the average cluster of enemies wouldn't have anything good enough to justify burning your stronger weapons. BotW is fairly desolate, and fighting is one of the few things there is to do, so taking that off the table was uhhhhh not great
-any time you found a cool weapon, like a magic fire wand buried out in the middle of nowhere, any excitment gets immediately undercut by "oh right this thing's gonna break after like 3 fights." This could be fixed pretty easily by just having more kinds of collectible upgrades and/or having very well hidden perma-weapons, or even semi-permanent weapons like hte master sword.
i imagine the simple solution is to just make each kind of weapon repairable if you have specific materials on hand, as opposed to a simple moneysink
I thought about that but it's actually less practical than just having new weapons drop because of adding an extra layer of 'crafting', and the sheer number of weapons in botw for both thematic and mechanical reasons
yeah but if you want you can keep your favorite weapons this way and it's a mechanic you're not forced to engage with if you like playing sword roulette
I think you're underestimating the extent to which even an "optional" mechanic can greatly change how people engage with it/how people will play in ways they don't like when presented with mechanical options. Again, people use shields in Dark Souls even though it sucks shit, because the game makes it clear you "can" use them effectively early on.
I ate an engineer
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
the comparison does work because they are the same. you could reconceptualize the ammo system in doom to where your weapons vanish and instead of finding ammo you find the weapon again with that amount of ammo loaded and it would function the exact same as it does now.
If you have to change the system you are comparing it to to make it work then it isn't an apt comparison lol. That's the exact opposite of what that means.
Again, when I run out of ammo I don't lose my gun. I continue to have that gun forever. If my sword breaks that sword is gone. Keeping the same thing is, quite literally, not the same as picking up a new thing.
The comparison works for grenades.
Grenades are not the same as guns. They are distinctly considered and accepted to be very different than guns. They are consumables. Guns are not consumables. Unless you make a game where guns are consumables! But that's a different system.
they are the same. they're literally the exact same weapon. if I kill break my lynel sword, then go kill another lynel and pick up his sword it is the exact same as finding new ammo for a gun. there is no difference. a gun without ammo is the same thing as not having the gun.
They are, factually, not the same thing.
See above. Just because you don't care about that aspect of games doesn't mean you should dismiss others who do.
And none of this even taking into consideration that in games with ammo you get the same ammo to refill your same guns over and over. You don't go through 10 fights thinking "gee I wonder when I'll find ammo for my pistol again?" So the comparison is broken on multiple levels, because the actual design around ammo is handled completely differently.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
I think I would have preferred having no weapon durability but also making the weapons actually special in some way? Like once the shine wore off the weapons were all kind of boring and samey
Maybe some kind of crafting or enchantment/modding system? Though the armors were already enough of a materials sink
Regardless I hope rehydrated Ganondorf is constantly dripping wet the entire game
A lot of the weapons ARE special, which I think is a lot of why people didn’t like the system.
When you find a guardian weapon, you don’t know when you’re going to get another, so you want to make sure that you HAVE a guardian weapon at all times, in case you come across any guardians. If you find a fire rod, you know that’s gonna fuck up any ice guys. But since you don’t know when you’re going to find any ice guys, you want a fire weapon on you ALL the time, so you’re never going to want to use it unless it’s against an ice guy.
Most weapons in BOTW have some kind of niche, so finding one makes it feel like you’ve acquired a new skill, or unlocked a new piece of your kit. But when that weapon breaks, the skill is gone. And you can go find another, but that requires the research of figuring out where you can get them, how easy they are to get, and how to get there relative to where you are now
But the damage durability also allowed them to put some of these weapons in the game in the first place. If item durability didn’t exist in botw, they probably wouldn’t have put in guardian weapons in the first place, for example.
Ah see I just had a couple places I would hit up if I ever wanted a weapon of a certain type cause everything just respawns every blood moon
Like if I wanted to feel prepared for anything then I'd go raid the coliseum and a combat shrine in the same way that I would have visited a vendor for repairs/new items if that was an option
The few truly unique weapons I kept at the house, but to me most everything else felt similar because there were only 4 or 5 movesets and most of the time getting a random strong enhancement didn't make the weapon really play any different (and im sure weapon durability was definitely part of why it felt that way to me)
I definitely did not ever enjoy the weapon durability system, though I did eventually stop being bothered by it
I would like the durability system tied to motion controls where if you blindly waggle your weapons at boko shields, your weapon degrades faster, but if you make precision strikes your sword could last ten times as long!
you 100% do go through things not knowing if you will find ammo for your guns in shooters. it happens all the time. If I'm playing RE8, and I burn through all my magnum ammo on some tough guy, when am I going to find new magnum ammo? I don't know! maybe not for a long time! and I know that when I shoot the last bullet for it
That's a horror game, resource scarcity is an intrinsic part of that genre. Doom doesn't do that. Ratchet and Clank doesn't do that. Ammo for the variety of weapons is either plentiful or readily available when it's needed.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
Link should have been able to punch things
I should have been able to beat a gaurdian to death with his bare hands
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
You're telling me that you're giving me back all the Monkey Ball party games that my family and friends played together all through high school - Soccer, Baseball, MONKEY TARGET! - but NOT adding any sort of online play so that we can actually get together online and play them together again now that we all moved away?!
Nothing like a 20 year celebration that doesn't account for anything that's changed in 20 years...
RE8 being a horror game is debatable tbh. and doom does not give you unlimited ammo for the more powerful guns, one of the best design aspects of doom is that there are times you have to choose between dumping ammo into guys or going for more efficient melee kills.
you 100% do go through things not knowing if you will find ammo for your guns in shooters. it happens all the time. If I'm playing RE8, and I burn through all my magnum ammo on some tough guy, when am I going to find new magnum ammo? I don't know! maybe not for a long time! and I know that when I shoot the last bullet for it
You can craft all ammos except magnum so that if you like a thing you can pool your resources to keep that thing available.
Magnum ammo, as the most powerful gun in the game, can remain scarce and it’s fine.
It would’ve been nice if I could’ve sharpened some weapons to keep em around in botw.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
you 100% do go through things not knowing if you will find ammo for your guns in shooters. it happens all the time. If I'm playing RE8, and I burn through all my magnum ammo on some tough guy, when am I going to find new magnum ammo? I don't know! maybe not for a long time! and I know that when I shoot the last bullet for it
Besides the comment above making a point I'm also playing RE8. And I have never run out of ammo for my pistol or my shotgun or my rifle. I can also craft ammo for any of them to further ensure I always have use of my weapons of choice.
I also upgraded my shotgun to have special stronger stats so if it broke and vanished and I had to find a new gun instead of just getting more ammo for this special upgraded gun that would be very bad! Because this shotgun is now unique and special. It is my shotgun. Not just any old shotgun. The ammo is any old ammo. Nothing is special about it. But it goes into a gun that is special. The ammo and the gun there are not interchangeable and serve very different purposes.
RE8 being a horror game is debatable tbh. and doom does not give you unlimited ammo for the more powerful guns, one of the best design aspects of doom is that there are times you have to choose between dumping ammo into guys or going for more efficient melee kills.
Doom does give you ammo for the heavy weapons before boss fights, which falls under when it's needed. Also your melee kills are explicitly to make ammunition pop out along with health, so it's readily available.
there was a point later on in RE8 when I was down to literally nothing but sniper rifle ammo. just because you haven't yet doesn't mean you won't
and, as I just said, sometimes melee kills are not what you want to use and you have to choose between doing risky melee kills, or just shooting the shit out of people and burning through ammo even if you might run out. just like how sometimes in botw you have to smash a good weapon on a tough enemy's head and it's cool because you get a big damage boost and you'll find another one anyway
Jars on
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
Am I the only one hammering websites looking for pre-orders of the Samus/ EMMI Amiibo?
I'm pretty sure the only thing that keeps me from playing PoE is that I hate the heavy focus on seasons or whatever they call it. It's the same with Diablo 3. I don't want to remake my character every few months.
There are permanent leagues, Standard and Hardcore, where stuff isn't wiped. It doesn't get the new league content, like the temporary leagues, but that stuff gets added to Standard/Hardcore when those leagues are over. It gets everything else though (new skills, new endgame stuff, balance/reworks, etc.) when it's released, just not the league-specific doohickies./
Also, when a new league is over, all the characters get sent over to Standard, so you don't lose your characters. You can just keep playing them, they aren't deleted.
Iirc, death in hardcore also just bumped the character into standard instead of deleting them outright. Which was one of the things PoE did that was nice.
Its me, I'm the guy who thinks that the Arms Lady and Tekken Guy are lame as additions to the Smash roster. I want cool and interesting characters who aren't already in a fighting game.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Its me, I'm the guy who thinks that the Arms Lady and Tekken Guy are lame as additions to the Smash roster. I want cool and interesting characters who aren't already in a fighting game.
Cloud and Sephiroth are both already in fighting games.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
Its me, I'm the guy who thinks that the Arms Lady and Tekken Guy are lame as additions to the Smash roster. I want cool and interesting characters who aren't already in a fighting game.
Its me, I'm the guy who thinks that the Arms Lady and Tekken Guy are lame as additions to the Smash roster. I want cool and interesting characters who aren't already in a fighting game.
Cloud and Sephiroth are both already in fighting games.
Its me, I'm the guy who thinks that the Arms Lady and Tekken Guy are lame as additions to the Smash roster. I want cool and interesting characters who aren't already in a fighting game.
Cloud and Sephiroth are both already in fighting games.
Its me, I'm the guy who thinks that the Arms Lady and Tekken Guy are lame as additions to the Smash roster. I want cool and interesting characters who aren't already in a fighting game.
Cloud and Sephiroth are both already in fighting games.
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Nothing like a 20 year celebration that doesn't account for anything that's changed in 20 years...
There's plenty of ways to make repairing an actual cost though and limit and make it meaningful in the same ways though. Again, I'm not going to magically design the perfect system right here in 5 minutes on a message board. But just by putting limits on what you can carry and still allowing for people to just pick up weapons can be balanced around to make a system that provides both.
they are the same. they're literally the exact same weapon. if I kill break my lynel sword, then go kill another lynel and pick up his sword it is the exact same as finding new ammo for a gun. there is no difference. a gun without ammo is the same thing as not having the gun.
I'm patient.
You can still have ten versions of sword. Dark Souls manages to include variations of the same weapon type that are different enough in some way to make them unique to each other.
But yeah I want to collect a copy of every weapon, most of which are unique so there's only one copy to get, and I want finding a new weapon or armor to be exciting as I check out how it looks and what it does.
I thought about that but it's actually less practical than just having new weapons drop because of adding an extra layer of 'crafting', and the sheer number of weapons in botw for both thematic and mechanical reasons
There are permanent leagues, Standard and Hardcore, where stuff isn't wiped. It doesn't get the new league content, like the temporary leagues, but that stuff gets added to Standard/Hardcore when those leagues are over. It gets everything else though (new skills, new endgame stuff, balance/reworks, etc.) when it's released, just not the league-specific doohickies./
Also, when a new league is over, all the characters get sent over to Standard, so you don't lose your characters. You can just keep playing them, they aren't deleted.
At least the Mother 3 crowd knows that game exists.
This is just pure self-inflicted pain.
Like the character in my avatar, I will stoically stand on this hill until I am dead.
yeah but if you want you can keep your favorite weapons this way and it's a mechanic you're not forced to engage with if you like playing sword roulette
-in the mid-to-late game, or from the very start in hard mode, it incentivized you to ignore fights, because the average cluster of enemies wouldn't have anything good enough to justify burning your stronger weapons. BotW is fairly desolate, and fighting is one of the few things there is to do, so taking that off the table was uhhhhh not great
-any time you found a cool weapon, like a magic fire wand buried out in the middle of nowhere, any excitment gets immediately undercut by "oh right this thing's gonna break after like 3 fights." This could be fixed pretty easily by just having more kinds of collectible upgrades and/or having very well hidden perma-weapons, or even semi-permanent weapons like hte master sword.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I think you're underestimating the extent to which even an "optional" mechanic can greatly change how people engage with it/how people will play in ways they don't like when presented with mechanical options. Again, people use shields in Dark Souls even though it sucks shit, because the game makes it clear you "can" use them effectively early on.
They are, factually, not the same thing.
See above. Just because you don't care about that aspect of games doesn't mean you should dismiss others who do.
And none of this even taking into consideration that in games with ammo you get the same ammo to refill your same guns over and over. You don't go through 10 fights thinking "gee I wonder when I'll find ammo for my pistol again?" So the comparison is broken on multiple levels, because the actual design around ammo is handled completely differently.
Ah see I just had a couple places I would hit up if I ever wanted a weapon of a certain type cause everything just respawns every blood moon
Like if I wanted to feel prepared for anything then I'd go raid the coliseum and a combat shrine in the same way that I would have visited a vendor for repairs/new items if that was an option
The few truly unique weapons I kept at the house, but to me most everything else felt similar because there were only 4 or 5 movesets and most of the time getting a random strong enhancement didn't make the weapon really play any different (and im sure weapon durability was definitely part of why it felt that way to me)
I definitely did not ever enjoy the weapon durability system, though I did eventually stop being bothered by it
If your game has it, I very likely won't play it.
I should have been able to beat a gaurdian to death with his bare hands
*motions to Mario Party Superstars*
You can craft all ammos except magnum so that if you like a thing you can pool your resources to keep that thing available.
Magnum ammo, as the most powerful gun in the game, can remain scarce and it’s fine.
It would’ve been nice if I could’ve sharpened some weapons to keep em around in botw.
Besides the comment above making a point I'm also playing RE8. And I have never run out of ammo for my pistol or my shotgun or my rifle. I can also craft ammo for any of them to further ensure I always have use of my weapons of choice.
I also upgraded my shotgun to have special stronger stats so if it broke and vanished and I had to find a new gun instead of just getting more ammo for this special upgraded gun that would be very bad! Because this shotgun is now unique and special. It is my shotgun. Not just any old shotgun. The ammo is any old ammo. Nothing is special about it. But it goes into a gun that is special. The ammo and the gun there are not interchangeable and serve very different purposes.
So yea, that's also not a very good example.
I do wonder if its the lack of any amiibo support?
WWHD predates amiibo yeah?
Doom does give you ammo for the heavy weapons before boss fights, which falls under when it's needed. Also your melee kills are explicitly to make ammunition pop out along with health, so it's readily available.
and, as I just said, sometimes melee kills are not what you want to use and you have to choose between doing risky melee kills, or just shooting the shit out of people and burning through ammo even if you might run out. just like how sometimes in botw you have to smash a good weapon on a tough enemy's head and it's cool because you get a big damage boost and you'll find another one anyway
Was he, and did someone?
Also: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/nintendo-metroid-dread-amiibo-2-pack/6464163.p?skuId=6464163
Iirc, death in hardcore also just bumped the character into standard instead of deleting them outright. Which was one of the things PoE did that was nice.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
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Cloud and Sephiroth are both already in fighting games.
Off the cliff with you
God that game was so fun
Am I the only one that played the adventure mode in that game? I remember liking it, it was a Diablo clone or something
what wasn't clear is that it was just a bandai namco us presser, and their only game was the iraq war horro game