Yeah, it's one thing to want to put restrictions on China's influence/economic impacts within Australia.
I've been for not wanting to be so reliant on the whims of China within Australia for decades, ironically because of the economic push by the same people (conservatives) that were happy to ship manufacturing jobs and the like overseas, and now aren't happy that China has become a dominant market force, rather than just cheap labor for Australian and American corporations.
I'd much rather have put in place measures that'd have allowed Australian businesses to compete while maintaining a strong labor force, whether through taxes, tarrifs, or some combination of effects.
But the clear racist rhetoric when doing so? That's fucking disgusting.
Also, fuck off, Clive (and Craig Kelly). I'm saddened that this may influence some people, and concerned it may be enough, but heartened that at least up to this point, these fuckers have been a wet fart, electorally, and hope it continues.
I don't think you could put restriction on China's influence/economic impact without being racist. Literally impossible, I mean, you can claim you're not, but is anyone going to believe you?
I don't think you could put restriction on China's influence/economic impact without being racist. Literally impossible, I mean, you can claim you're not, but is anyone going to believe you?
Nowadays, probably not. But at the time, just general protectionism (ie, not just China, but all places where manufacturing was done in massively unsafe work conditions) when it came to exporting jobs and manufacturing, I think it would have been possible.
But it would have required acknowledging that other countries flouting fair environmental and labour laws would mean that unions had a point.
And it might not have worked. I'll concede that. I'm not an economist, and like with climate change, the purchasing power of the US means it doesn't really matter what Australia does.
My issue is more the people throwing the big hissyfit now, are the same people that not just conceded the manufacturing exodus, but actively cheered it on, as it made Australian retailers and last-leg manufacturers significant profit margins, and spiked unions power.
It's the hypocrisy of the whining that annoys me most. "How could we have ever gotten to this point?" bemoan the people who ignored the warnings and took us to this point.
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FishmanPut your goddamned hand in the goddamned Box of Pain.Registered Userregular
Reports from the protest:
Ugh, I went into town at lunch, and it's worse than last week.
Last week as the protest was hot the occupiers were concentrated and contained at the protest. But a week later, walking through town, they're everywhere.
Not in huge numbers, but they're spreading throughout the community after being here a couple weeks and taking advantage of all our amenities and just... they're superspreading everywhere. They're on every street. Three years ago I would have loved to see so much life and vibrance around the city.
Now, Omicron's about, and I get the feeling we're about 5-10 days from a really nasty spike of cases that will be dug into Wellington. And unfortunately being in town today has made me realise I think it's going to be so much worse than it could have been thanks to these ignorant dipshits.
I think we're zooming up the numbers fast enough that it'll be difficult to tell. "This near vertical line is now even more near vertical". They'd have been a super seeder if it had happened earlier in the outbreak tho.
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
fucking selfish assholes.
sorry i should offer something more constructive than that, but I don't have it.
Pretty sure I ran into some at the maccas on manners today - I'm just guessing, but given the mother talking about securing money for another tent, and sleeping in the car otherwise...
Oh and talking to her kid about this. So that's stressful! And horrifying (why the fuck are you exposing your kids like this you selfish assholes)
Pretty sure I ran into some at the maccas on manners today - I'm just guessing, but given the mother talking about securing money for another tent, and sleeping in the car otherwise...
Oh and talking to her kid about this. So that's stressful! And horrifying (why the fuck are you exposing your kids like this you selfish assholes)
I think you've identified the reason.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
This is the exact shit Pauline Hanson was doing 30 fucking years ago.
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FishmanPut your goddamned hand in the goddamned Box of Pain.Registered Userregular
Hey, @The Zombie Penguin, you want to show our opposition to the occupation by staying socially distanced and totally within our own bubbles by making absolutely zero plans to met at anytime in the immediate future while downtown is swarming with illiterate fucknuts in the middle of the worst wave of Covid NZ has ever seen in our extremely vulnerable unexposed population base?
I would totally be down to stay home and not hang out with you pretty much any time.
Hey, @The Zombie Penguin, you want to show our opposition to the occupation by staying socially distanced and totally within our own bubbles by making absolutely zero plans to met at anytime in the immediate future while downtown is swarming with illiterate fucknuts in the middle of the worst wave of Covid NZ has ever seen in our extremely vulnerable unexposed population base?
I would totally be down to stay home and not hang out with you pretty much any time.
I mean, you seem like someone who would enjoy a good boardgame sometime, and i need more boardgame buddies, so that sucks but also yes.
I gotta admit, i'm not sure how to feel about the police's actions here - I think i honestly do agree with them on de-escalation being the only safe course, and the baying for blood I'm seeing from a lot of people is really disturbing (Esp when there's the same rehtoic around police should be Doing Shit to gangs - i agree gangs suck, but they're a fucking sympton of our deeper issues, bashing heads is not going to fix shit). At the same time, this protest is well, turning into more of an occupation and it's a huge risk (i'm one of the vulnerable people - just getting my booster knocked me on my arse for multiple days and i'm still a bit weak and tired.
On the otehr hand, what, should i be getting some cars together and planning to block shit down there after this lot are done so i can protest our growing wealth inequality, underfuded medical systems, and impossibility of housing unless you're one of the moneyed class? Because apperntly you can just hold a chunk of the city to hostage and it's no big!
Well, the protests are a symptom of larger issues, too, to be fair. I get your point though, I’m not sure on the best course of action either
Yeah, this is true. There's a huge amount of economic anxiety, chickens coming home to roost in regards to prior government mismanagement of all sorts of things, distrust in media and general great and mistrust represented in these protesters.
Sadly it's all wrapped up in a shit-cake layer of self destruction, genuinely frightening rhetoric and holding everyone else's health hostage
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
the idea that there's even one single protester who is there motivated only by economic anxiety and who is otherwise a decent person without any abhorrent beliefs is ludicrous
the idea that there's even one single protester who is there motivated only by economic anxiety and who is otherwise a decent person without any abhorrent beliefs is ludicrous
Lucky I never said that then, because yeah that sounds pretty ridiculous!
the idea that there's even one single protester who is there motivated only by economic anxiety and who is otherwise a decent person without any abhorrent beliefs is ludicrous
Lucky I never said that then, because yeah that sounds pretty ridiculous!
By whom? I’d say we’re probably thinking about it from different perspectives (Marxist vs neoliberal capitalist). I think it very much is a factor.
The kind of people who show to the right wing events, and especially the ones who have violent plans, are disproportionally well off.
Yes, and your point was what, exactly? You just felt the need to lecture me about the role of the petite bourgeois?
You stated that economic anxiety was a factor in motivation for these protests. So of course we pointed out the people who go to them aren't exactly hurting financially. How are the protests motivates by economic anxiety in your view, then?
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
The ones that are still there, sure.
The ones that went originally and have since left or drifted off or whatever. Maybe less solidified right wing shit.
Like there's no real denying that Arps and Chapman are there. Or that the whole thing was essentially taken over by Steve Bannon. It was. Almost immediately.
But there were definitely some gullible fucking selfish assholes that went along at the start who aren't fully in the right wing sphere.
Or weren't when they started out, at least.
There's a lot of social stuff that feeds into this, and feeds into the right wing stuff too. It's silly to reject that as a factor when we know that it is one. Economic anxiety became such a stupid fucking buzzword for US politics that it makes folks see red and lose any reason almost as much as CRT does.
So you’d rather not actually analyse the causes of right wing movements, out of some paranoia that somehow you’re playing into their ~propaganda~ ?
Listen, it’s damaging capitalist propaganda to pretend that the inherent contradictions of capitalism don’t directly lead the types of situations we find ourselves in. And it’s especially damaging to want to bury our heads in the sand as to the causes.
Read about historical materialism if you’re interested in understanding what I mean. Essentially, all of us live in reaction to the historical conditions we find ourselves in. That said, it would not surprise me if the welly protests are predominantly Astroturfed bullshit; but even that is applicable to ahistorical materialist view.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited February 2022
“ Economic anxiety” is a firmly debunked bullshit theory used to explain away real causes of things like this: Like racism, extreme right wing views, grifting, misinformation farms from Facebook etc etc.
These people are usually well off and can afford to do stupid shit without being fired or whatever. I have no time to coddle views of selfish people because they can’t tell the difference between actual scientists and racist assholes like Joe Rogan.
Let’s me clear, these shitheels have been ruining businesses and treating regular people like shit from day 1 here. There is no myth of “good people” at this sort of thing, even if a handful of them genuinely were.
the idea that there's even one single protester who is there motivated only by economic anxiety and who is otherwise a decent person without any abhorrent beliefs is ludicrous
Lucky I never said that then, because yeah that sounds pretty ridiculous!
By whom? I’d say we’re probably thinking about it from different perspectives (Marxist vs neoliberal capitalist). I think it very much is a factor.
The kind of people who show to the right wing events, and especially the ones who have violent plans, are disproportionally well off.
Yes, and your point was what, exactly? You just felt the need to lecture me about the role of the petite bourgeois?
You stated that economic anxiety was a factor in motivation for these protests. So of course we pointed out the people who go to them aren't exactly hurting financially. How are the protests motivates by economic anxiety in your view, then?
By whom? I’d say we’re probably thinking about it from different perspectives (Marxist vs neoliberal capitalist). I think it very much is a factor.
If this didn't help you understand it, then I'm not going to expend the energy again. You and I have done this dance enough times before, on very similar issues, for me to know it's not worth our time
Are we talking about the new Zealand protestors in Wellington here, or Aussie protestors or what?
Because the NZ protestors do include a lot of traditionally disadvantaged groups (at least to my understanding), and NZ as a whole is currently undergoing widening inequality, an out of control housing market that's become a full on humans right crisis, and inflation driving up the prices of food and other basics. Hell, a chunk of them are linked to Brian Tamakis bullshit I believe, and he's a known predator of the poor.
Seriously, I'm a beneficiary - I get to see & live this shit first hand. It fucking sucks! So much! I literally have a single molar on my bottom jaw left because of how fucked things are, and forget being able to afford to see a psychologist like I need for my mental health.
Point is: things are rotten in New Zealand. People are in pain. Some of them are seeking any sense of reassurence and control they can find, and it's lead them down incredibly nasty paths. Doesn't make what they're doing right, in the least.
To be clear: I don't agree with the protestors. I want them gone from my city. I believe in what the NZ government is doing to handle this pandemic, while the protestors are actively making things worse (since of they're not a super spreader event, they will be).
But they're still people, and I'm not going to let myself become a fun house mirror reflection of them - just because they've forgotten empathy dosent meant I have, or I should.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited February 2022
“They’re just people” so was the bus driver who got spat at, or the guys trying to run a business that is now down 90% or worse, or someone just minding their own place while being abused and having a fuckwit from this protest trying to rip their mask off.
My field of fucks to give about what these protestors think is *extremely* barren at this point.
To put it another way there aren’t always “good people on both sides”
lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I also very much agree with both takes, fwiw.
My fury at these SELFISH fuck sticks is so great that my phone just automatically capitalised the word. And I'm gonna leave it.
But knowing that there are likely nuanced reasons for individual folks to have gone originally, and stating that there are likely multiple reasons for each individual is not the same as agreeing with them or their chosen course of action.
And like I said: I want these fuckers gone. Their behavior is vile! The protest is idiotic, and they're doing real serious harm.
But I also want them to stay gone. Which isn't going to happen if we don't solve the rot that's makes it so easy for people to fall down these rabbit holes.
Patching a crack in the wall when the houses foundation is rotten will just mean new cracks keep springing up
As it is, I think we're sadly in for waves of these stupid protests
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited February 2022
It’s like gamergate. A handful of people were polite and well meaning, actually caring about the issue at hand. The majority were right wing agitators and culture warrior types.
Anyone noticed the protest leaders don’t publicly name themselves or represent anything going on at the protest.
Fascinating isn’t it. It’s almost like right wing tactics we have seen repeatedly all over the world.
yeah to be clear, seeking to understand the structural factors behind a resurgent populist right wing movement is not the same thing as giving individuals a pass to be arseholes. Structural problems do not have individual solutions
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited February 2022
The protesters deserve zero sympathy, zero empathy, and zero consideration. They have gone too far for their original motivations to be even slightly relevant. If they all starved to death during this while trying to make their idiotic stand the world would be better off.
Right, but the bit I'm driving at - and I may be doing this poorly, if so, I apologize - is why are people falling for these memes (in the cultural virus sense) about the virus, the conspiracy theories etc?
And I think it's too easy to just write these people off as because they're hateful idiots. Satisfying, yes, and possibly no more than they deserve given the crap that's being pulled by them.
I don't think we break the cycles that lead to people getting attacked in the streets because they worse a mask by labeling the attackers as idiots and leaving them there. That just reinforces the bunker mentality that in turn reinforces the echo chamber feeding them crap and driving them to assault people.
Right, but the bit I'm driving at - and I may be doing this poorly, if so, I apologize - is why are people falling for these memes (in the cultural virus sense) about the virus, the conspiracy theories etc?
And I think it's too easy to just write these people off as because they're hateful idiots. Satisfying, yes, and possibly no more than they deserve given the crap that's being pulled by them.
I don't think we break the cycles that lead to people getting attacked in the streets because they worse a mask by labeling the attackers as idiots and leaving them there. That just reinforces the bunker mentality that in turn reinforces the echo chamber feeding them crap and driving them to assault people.
They didn't reason and empathize their way into their positions, reason and empathy will not bring them out of them.
So, how do we fix this then? How do we defuse this entire idiotic protest without it turning violent, and without damaging things worse than they already have been?
And how do we stop the next stupid, selfish right wing protest from happening, and the one after that, and the one after that? Because currently there's no shortage of desperate people looking for an easy story to believe.
So, how do we fix this then? How do we defuse this entire idiotic protest without it turning violent, and without damaging things worse than they already have been?
And how do we stop the next stupid, selfish right wing protest from happening, and the one after that, and the one after that? Because currently there's no shortage of desperate people looking for an easy story to believe.
You order them to disperse and arrest the ones stupid or entrenched enough to refuse, in order to ensure people know it's being taken seriously so that those who are on the fence don't join up with the protests like this next time. Protests made up only of hardcore believers are too small to do anything, the hardcore believers need the "sorta into it" crowd there to amplify their numbers, and those people will not go if they know serious repercussions await.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I think the entire point is they want to turn it violent - they just don’t want to instigate it. Unlike US police, it seems our politicians/police are not falling for it though. Not that I think the police being so passive has been a remotely good thing - but it’s also a new kind of situation for them.
Right, but the bit I'm driving at - and I may be doing this poorly, if so, I apologize - is why are people falling for these memes (in the cultural virus sense) about the virus, the conspiracy theories etc?
And I think it's too easy to just write these people off as because they're hateful idiots. Satisfying, yes, and possibly no more than they deserve given the crap that's being pulled by them.
I don't think we break the cycles that lead to people getting attacked in the streets because they worse a mask by labeling the attackers as idiots and leaving them there. That just reinforces the bunker mentality that in turn reinforces the echo chamber feeding them crap and driving them to assault people.
They didn't reason and empathize their way into their positions, reason and empathy will not bring them out of them.
solve it or die, that's literally the stakes. It's easy to retreat into being a hateful person, to fall back on individual's reactions rather than seek to understand WHY they react they do (and fix it). If we don't, we'll be swept aside by fascism just like literally every other time this has happened in history
If we don't, we'll be swept aside by fascism just like literally every other time this has happened in history
All of the times fascism has risen it's because people gave sympathy and empathy to these kinds of protesters and did not come down hard enough on them early enough.
once someone has embraced fascistic beliefs they are a lost cause unless they bring themselves out of it on their own.
So, how do we fix this then? How do we defuse this entire idiotic protest without it turning violent, and without damaging things worse than they already have been?
And how do we stop the next stupid, selfish right wing protest from happening, and the one after that, and the one after that? Because currently there's no shortage of desperate people looking for an easy story to believe.
You order them to disperse and arrest the ones stupid or entrenched enough to refuse, in order to ensure people know it's being taken seriously so that those who are on the fence don't join up with the protests like this next time. Protests made up only of hardcore believers are too small to do anything, the hardcore believers need the "sorta into it" crowd there to amplify their numbers, and those people will not go if they know serious repercussions await.
Personally, I think the police have the right of it currently - ordering them to disperse and then moving in to arrest would turn it violent. And, I suspect, radicalize people on the sidelines.
(Also I'm just real leery of cheering on the police breaking up anything - NZ cops may not be the yahoos with guns that other places have, but I still wouldn't trust the fuckers. See also the recent cannabis helicopter bullshit)
Which leaves the at our current shitty impasse, which sucks. I do feel like they could be doing more with shifting/impounding vehicles? But that's another obvious tinder-box situation.
Definitely though I fear things getting violent and the protestors using that to play the matyr card.
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I've been for not wanting to be so reliant on the whims of China within Australia for decades, ironically because of the economic push by the same people (conservatives) that were happy to ship manufacturing jobs and the like overseas, and now aren't happy that China has become a dominant market force, rather than just cheap labor for Australian and American corporations.
I'd much rather have put in place measures that'd have allowed Australian businesses to compete while maintaining a strong labor force, whether through taxes, tarrifs, or some combination of effects.
But the clear racist rhetoric when doing so? That's fucking disgusting.
Also, fuck off, Clive (and Craig Kelly). I'm saddened that this may influence some people, and concerned it may be enough, but heartened that at least up to this point, these fuckers have been a wet fart, electorally, and hope it continues.
Nowadays, probably not. But at the time, just general protectionism (ie, not just China, but all places where manufacturing was done in massively unsafe work conditions) when it came to exporting jobs and manufacturing, I think it would have been possible.
But it would have required acknowledging that other countries flouting fair environmental and labour laws would mean that unions had a point.
And it might not have worked. I'll concede that. I'm not an economist, and like with climate change, the purchasing power of the US means it doesn't really matter what Australia does.
My issue is more the people throwing the big hissyfit now, are the same people that not just conceded the manufacturing exodus, but actively cheered it on, as it made Australian retailers and last-leg manufacturers significant profit margins, and spiked unions power.
It's the hypocrisy of the whining that annoys me most. "How could we have ever gotten to this point?" bemoan the people who ignored the warnings and took us to this point.
Ugh, I went into town at lunch, and it's worse than last week.
Last week as the protest was hot the occupiers were concentrated and contained at the protest. But a week later, walking through town, they're everywhere.
Not in huge numbers, but they're spreading throughout the community after being here a couple weeks and taking advantage of all our amenities and just... they're superspreading everywhere. They're on every street. Three years ago I would have loved to see so much life and vibrance around the city.
Now, Omicron's about, and I get the feeling we're about 5-10 days from a really nasty spike of cases that will be dug into Wellington. And unfortunately being in town today has made me realise I think it's going to be so much worse than it could have been thanks to these ignorant dipshits.
sorry i should offer something more constructive than that, but I don't have it.
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Oh and talking to her kid about this. So that's stressful! And horrifying (why the fuck are you exposing your kids like this you selfish assholes)
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I think you've identified the reason.
I would totally be down to stay home and not hang out with you pretty much any time.
I mean, you seem like someone who would enjoy a good boardgame sometime, and i need more boardgame buddies, so that sucks but also yes.
I gotta admit, i'm not sure how to feel about the police's actions here - I think i honestly do agree with them on de-escalation being the only safe course, and the baying for blood I'm seeing from a lot of people is really disturbing (Esp when there's the same rehtoic around police should be Doing Shit to gangs - i agree gangs suck, but they're a fucking sympton of our deeper issues, bashing heads is not going to fix shit). At the same time, this protest is well, turning into more of an occupation and it's a huge risk (i'm one of the vulnerable people - just getting my booster knocked me on my arse for multiple days and i'm still a bit weak and tired.
On the otehr hand, what, should i be getting some cars together and planning to block shit down there after this lot are done so i can protest our growing wealth inequality, underfuded medical systems, and impossibility of housing unless you're one of the moneyed class? Because apperntly you can just hold a chunk of the city to hostage and it's no big!
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
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the people that were docile were either arrested days ago or have left. the ones that are still there are likely to fight and fight dirty.
However, the protestors at Putiki were never given this much leeway.
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Yeah, this is true. There's a huge amount of economic anxiety, chickens coming home to roost in regards to prior government mismanagement of all sorts of things, distrust in media and general great and mistrust represented in these protesters.
Sadly it's all wrapped up in a shit-cake layer of self destruction, genuinely frightening rhetoric and holding everyone else's health hostage
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
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The kind of people who show to the right wing events, and especially the ones who have violent plans, are disproportionally well off.
Lucky I never said that then, because yeah that sounds pretty ridiculous!
Yes, and your point was what, exactly? You just felt the need to lecture me about the role of the petite bourgeois?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
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they are right wing fuckwits, they have zero sympathetic motivations.
You stated that economic anxiety was a factor in motivation for these protests. So of course we pointed out the people who go to them aren't exactly hurting financially. How are the protests motivates by economic anxiety in your view, then?
The ones that went originally and have since left or drifted off or whatever. Maybe less solidified right wing shit.
Like there's no real denying that Arps and Chapman are there. Or that the whole thing was essentially taken over by Steve Bannon. It was. Almost immediately.
But there were definitely some gullible fucking selfish assholes that went along at the start who aren't fully in the right wing sphere.
Or weren't when they started out, at least.
There's a lot of social stuff that feeds into this, and feeds into the right wing stuff too. It's silly to reject that as a factor when we know that it is one. Economic anxiety became such a stupid fucking buzzword for US politics that it makes folks see red and lose any reason almost as much as CRT does.
It can actually be a situation with nuance.
Well, not now. But it was before.
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Listen, it’s damaging capitalist propaganda to pretend that the inherent contradictions of capitalism don’t directly lead the types of situations we find ourselves in. And it’s especially damaging to want to bury our heads in the sand as to the causes.
Read about historical materialism if you’re interested in understanding what I mean. Essentially, all of us live in reaction to the historical conditions we find ourselves in. That said, it would not surprise me if the welly protests are predominantly Astroturfed bullshit; but even that is applicable to ahistorical materialist view.
https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/new-zealand/nunes-marx-mao/hist-mat.pdf
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
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These people are usually well off and can afford to do stupid shit without being fired or whatever. I have no time to coddle views of selfish people because they can’t tell the difference between actual scientists and racist assholes like Joe Rogan.
Let’s me clear, these shitheels have been ruining businesses and treating regular people like shit from day 1 here. There is no myth of “good people” at this sort of thing, even if a handful of them genuinely were.
If this didn't help you understand it, then I'm not going to expend the energy again. You and I have done this dance enough times before, on very similar issues, for me to know it's not worth our time
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
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Because the NZ protestors do include a lot of traditionally disadvantaged groups (at least to my understanding), and NZ as a whole is currently undergoing widening inequality, an out of control housing market that's become a full on humans right crisis, and inflation driving up the prices of food and other basics. Hell, a chunk of them are linked to Brian Tamakis bullshit I believe, and he's a known predator of the poor.
Seriously, I'm a beneficiary - I get to see & live this shit first hand. It fucking sucks! So much! I literally have a single molar on my bottom jaw left because of how fucked things are, and forget being able to afford to see a psychologist like I need for my mental health.
Point is: things are rotten in New Zealand. People are in pain. Some of them are seeking any sense of reassurence and control they can find, and it's lead them down incredibly nasty paths. Doesn't make what they're doing right, in the least.
To be clear: I don't agree with the protestors. I want them gone from my city. I believe in what the NZ government is doing to handle this pandemic, while the protestors are actively making things worse (since of they're not a super spreader event, they will be).
But they're still people, and I'm not going to let myself become a fun house mirror reflection of them - just because they've forgotten empathy dosent meant I have, or I should.
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My field of fucks to give about what these protestors think is *extremely* barren at this point.
To put it another way there aren’t always “good people on both sides”
My fury at these SELFISH fuck sticks is so great that my phone just automatically capitalised the word. And I'm gonna leave it.
But knowing that there are likely nuanced reasons for individual folks to have gone originally, and stating that there are likely multiple reasons for each individual is not the same as agreeing with them or their chosen course of action.
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But I also want them to stay gone. Which isn't going to happen if we don't solve the rot that's makes it so easy for people to fall down these rabbit holes.
Patching a crack in the wall when the houses foundation is rotten will just mean new cracks keep springing up
As it is, I think we're sadly in for waves of these stupid protests
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Anyone noticed the protest leaders don’t publicly name themselves or represent anything going on at the protest.
Fascinating isn’t it. It’s almost like right wing tactics we have seen repeatedly all over the world.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
And I think it's too easy to just write these people off as because they're hateful idiots. Satisfying, yes, and possibly no more than they deserve given the crap that's being pulled by them.
I don't think we break the cycles that lead to people getting attacked in the streets because they worse a mask by labeling the attackers as idiots and leaving them there. That just reinforces the bunker mentality that in turn reinforces the echo chamber feeding them crap and driving them to assault people.
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They didn't reason and empathize their way into their positions, reason and empathy will not bring them out of them.
And how do we stop the next stupid, selfish right wing protest from happening, and the one after that, and the one after that? Because currently there's no shortage of desperate people looking for an easy story to believe.
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You order them to disperse and arrest the ones stupid or entrenched enough to refuse, in order to ensure people know it's being taken seriously so that those who are on the fence don't join up with the protests like this next time. Protests made up only of hardcore believers are too small to do anything, the hardcore believers need the "sorta into it" crowd there to amplify their numbers, and those people will not go if they know serious repercussions await.
solve it or die, that's literally the stakes. It's easy to retreat into being a hateful person, to fall back on individual's reactions rather than seek to understand WHY they react they do (and fix it). If we don't, we'll be swept aside by fascism just like literally every other time this has happened in history
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
All of the times fascism has risen it's because people gave sympathy and empathy to these kinds of protesters and did not come down hard enough on them early enough.
once someone has embraced fascistic beliefs they are a lost cause unless they bring themselves out of it on their own.
Personally, I think the police have the right of it currently - ordering them to disperse and then moving in to arrest would turn it violent. And, I suspect, radicalize people on the sidelines.
(Also I'm just real leery of cheering on the police breaking up anything - NZ cops may not be the yahoos with guns that other places have, but I still wouldn't trust the fuckers. See also the recent cannabis helicopter bullshit)
Which leaves the at our current shitty impasse, which sucks. I do feel like they could be doing more with shifting/impounding vehicles? But that's another obvious tinder-box situation.
Definitely though I fear things getting violent and the protestors using that to play the matyr card.
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