Oh, and starforce doesn't do shit to your computer. theamount of community backlash towards it has generated this imaginary perceived image of it as some PC killer.
But no, you're right, it's purely because we're completely incompetent at using PC's that Starforce completely screwed up our systems. I'm glad you're around to tell us these things.
I find piracy particularly silly in that pretty much any game (maybe excluding the Halos and GTAs of the world) will sooner or later cost basically fuck all to buy. No one is asking you to drop full price on a game if you're not sure if you'll like it. Be a grown up and wait until it's in the bargain bin. You can buy some of the best games ever made for ten dollars.
This only really works for popular games, you need to be very lucky to certain titles.
While I agree that piracy is wrong in all cases, finding everything in the bargain bin is practically impossible. I know because I only buy things I find in the bargain bins. I have little money but I deal with it. Everything from Shadow of the Colossus, Final Fantasy tactics advance and Metroids of all flavors have been found, bought and played.
But it's really-super-mega-hyper-turbo-champions-edition-lucky to find any of nintendos a-list titles for 10$. I managed to find Advance Wars 2 for the gba for about 8$ new, but that was without the box and about a month ago, a couple of years after it was released. Super Mario Sunshine is, around here, still 30$ used. But someday it will be cheaper! I hope.
Oh, and starforce doesn't do shit to your computer. theamount of community backlash towards it has generated this imaginary perceived image of it as some PC killer.
But no, you're right, it's purely because we're completely incompetent at using PC's that Starforce completely screwed up our systems. I'm glad you're around to tell us these things.
EDIT: Beat'd.
I never said that starforce was only a threat if you were stupid.
Just that it isnt inherently awful because a minority have issues with it.
Or to put it another way:
Why would these companies not use starforce when less than 1% of their customers complain?
Good thread, OP, I think it's a good idea to ask and actually see some direct responses.
I pirate stuff a fair amount. Not regularly, but maybe a game every two months or so. However, I don't think my responses will really help you. I pirate, because it's free. I don't try to justify it morally, I know what I'm doing is wrong. But I can get away with it, so I do.
However, I do buy retail copies of games and movies I genuinely think are fantastic. If I play a game or watch a TV series which I think is just brilliant, I'll purchase it. KotOR, Mass Effect, STALKER, for example. All of these I pirated, played, then paid for.
Writing that paragraph above did me think of one potential answer to your question there - make your game fantastic. Not that that answer's particularly worth much either, as it's unlikely you'd deliberately make a game that you didn't think was great.
The Steam distribution service, however, I support. I tend to pay for Steam games, as those can be directly downloaded quickly, and (compared to most other games, particularly store-bought) are very cheap. They're constantly throwing out offers and reduced prices.
I think those two points would greatly aid against piracy - quick online download, and lower prices (aided by bundles and other offers) - both supplied by online distribution.
Copy protection or Online verification have never stopped me from pirating - someone'll always make a crack for those, there's always a way round. The best way to avoid privacy is to make your games more easily accessible and cheaper.
As something of an aside, I'm very much anti-piracy, despite pirating myself. It's that traditional human hipocracy - I don't want a global energy crisis, but I'll drive anyway because it's quicker.
I really hope that Stardock games are pirate'd less then other big developers. It was crazy how fast I managed to install and play Sins of a solar empire when I got it off star dock central. Crazy awesome.
I really hope that Stardock games are pirate'd less then other big developers. It was crazy how fast I managed to install and play Sins of a solar empire when I got it off star dock. Crazy awesome.
Stardock have had more people buy the digital download version from their site than they have had downloads of the game itself.
Ie, people pirated it then 'upgraded' by buying a legitimate key to play online.
I used to pirate games. Dozens and dozens of games. I'd make excuses like "I don't have any fucking money, so they wouldn't have gotten anything from me anyway," and such, but it was all bullshit; even when I started to actually have some disposable income I'd still do it. Big budget EA stuff, indie stuff, whatever; I didn't draw a distinction.
Eventually, I got really disgusted with myself. I wiped all the pirated crap off my computer, bought whatever ones I actually cared about, and never pirated a game again.
but man, I'll still download whatever DRM-stripping tools I want, because if I paid for the damn game I'll run it how I want to, and "how I want to" often includes "without draining extra laptop battery life on useless CD checks".
Question: While legally wrong is it really morally wrong to pirate really old games. Snes games for example. You can't buy it new any more so nintendo neither gains nor loses money even taking into account the theoretical income loss calculations record companies love to spout.
I really hope that Stardock games are pirate'd less then other big developers. It was crazy how fast I managed to install and play Sins of a solar empire when I got it off star dock central. Crazy awesome.
Stardock is indeed crazy awesome. I really hope Impulse takes off for them. Between that and GoG, it really does look as if some devs understand "Mo DRM!" isn't necessarily the wholly ideal scenario.
I really hope that Stardock games are pirate'd less then other big developers. It was crazy how fast I managed to install and play Sins of a solar empire when I got it off star dock central. Crazy awesome.
Question: While legally wrong is it really morally wrong to pirate really old games. Snes games for example. You can't buy it new any more so nintendo neither gains nor loses money even taking into account the theoretical income loss calculations record companies love to spout.
I really hope that Stardock games are pirate'd less then other big developers. It was crazy how fast I managed to install and play Sins of a solar empire when I got it off star dock central. Crazy awesome.
They are
That is not strictly as a result of them being DRM free.
It has more to do with them being incredibly niche games.
As a proportion of sales Stardock games are pirated as much as anyone else.
Question: While legally wrong is it really morally wrong to pirate really old games. Snes games for example. You can't buy it new any more so nintendo neither gains nor loses money even taking into account the theoretical income loss calculations record companies love to spout.
The Virtual Console muddies the water on this issue.
but man, I'll still download whatever DRM-stripping tools I want, because if I paid for the damn game I'll run it how I want to, and "how I want to" often includes "without draining extra laptop battery life on useless CD checks".
But don't you miss that *Bzzzzzzzz* as the drive spins up to 3 jillion revs / second?
I really hope that Stardock games are pirate'd less then other big developers. It was crazy how fast I managed to install and play Sins of a solar empire when I got it off star dock central. Crazy awesome.
They are
That is not strictly as a result of them being DRM free.
It has more to do with them being incredibly niche games.
As a proportion of sales Stardock games are pirated as much as anyone else.
Similarly niche games with restrictive DRM are pirated far more though.
Question: While legally wrong is it really morally wrong to pirate really old games. Snes games for example. You can't buy it new any more so nintendo neither gains nor loses money even taking into account the theoretical income loss calculations record companies love to spout.
The virtual console kind of sinks the "but you can't buy them any more!" argument for a lot of emulators. A lot of PC games are literally impossible to find though, and are never coming out again.
Question: While legally wrong is it really morally wrong to pirate really old games. Snes games for example. You can't buy it new any more so nintendo neither gains nor loses money even taking into account the theoretical income loss calculations record companies love to spout.
The virtual console kind of sinks the "but you can't buy them any more!" argument for a lot of emulators. A lot of PC games are literally impossible to find though, and are never coming out again.
There are a number of console games that are never coming out of the legal hellhole they're stuck in, either. I can't get too mad at anyone who pirates stuff you cannot legitimately buy, provided you shell out the damn money immediately if it ever gets a rerelease.
I really hope that Stardock games are pirate'd less then other big developers. It was crazy how fast I managed to install and play Sins of a solar empire when I got it off star dock central. Crazy awesome.
They are
That is not strictly as a result of them being DRM free.
It has more to do with them being incredibly niche games.
As a proportion of sales Stardock games are pirated as much as anyone else.
Similarly niche games with restrictive DRM are pirated far more though.
Well then it comes down to the market they are targeting and the mindset of their consumer.
Yes, having no protection at all on their stuff is an attractive proposition for consumers, and has certainly increased their sales, it hasnt magically converted pirates over to being fully paid up customers.
A lot of PC games are literally impossible to find though, and are never coming out again.
Apparently there is some demand for old PC games, which is why Good Old Games is coming out. So it might be possible to legally get working copies of old PC games sometime soon
The point is though, it has been markedly more successful than restrictive DRM. And lets not forget it costs money for publishers to license Securom or Starforce or whatever.
Question: While legally wrong is it really morally wrong to pirate really old games. Snes games for example. You can't buy it new any more so nintendo neither gains nor loses money even taking into account the theoretical income loss calculations record companies love to spout.
The Virtual Console muddies the water on this issue.
It does indeed.
A better question would be, should it be illegal to play an emulated ROM of a game that you already own?
I'm actually a pretty big fan of Final Fantasy Tactics. The thing is, I've never personally owned a playstation. I actually went out and bought a copy of FFT, ripped it to my HDD (a lot of people don't realise this, but playstation discs are just standard CD's, they can be read by a standard PC drive (although it's not necessarily recommended, as it can cause damage if you do it too often IIRC)), and played it fullscreen with anti-aliasing maxed out. It was awesome. As far as I'm concerned, Sony was making a loss on the playstation as it is and making their profit off the games, so I was effectively giving them more money than if I had bought a playstation and played the game that way.
The point is though, it has been markedly more successful than restrictive DRM. And lets not forget it costs money for publishers to license Securom or Starforce or whatever.
Yeah, that never made any sense to me. You, as a publisher, are spending money to add something that no customer wants, and that will not exist on the inevitable pirated version. Corporate stupidity at its finest, really.
A lot of PC games are literally impossible to find though, and are never coming out again.
Apparently there is some demand for old PC games, which is why Good Old Games is coming out. So it might be possible to legally get working copies of old PC games sometime soon
The point is though, it has been markedly more successful than restrictive DRM. And lets not forget it costs money for publishers to license Securom or Starforce or whatever.
Yeah, that never made any sense to me. You, as a publisher, are spending money to add something that no customer wants, and that will not exist on the inevitable pirated version. Corporate stupidity at its finest, really.
Do you actually have data that proves a game sells more or less based on how much DRM it has? I know there was a huge stink about Bioshock's DRM, but it still sold really well on the PC as I understand, so I'm not sure I really buy the argument that less DRM means more sales.
A lot of PC games are literally impossible to find though, and are never coming out again.
Apparently there is some demand for old PC games, which is why Good Old Games is coming out. So it might be possible to legally get working copies of old PC games sometime soon
Awesome. I hope it's a good service.
Wow, that looks really promising and I have a feeling they'll be getting a lot of my money in the future.
A lot of PC games are literally impossible to find though, and are never coming out again.
Apparently there is some demand for old PC games, which is why Good Old Games is coming out. So it might be possible to legally get working copies of old PC games sometime soon
Awesome. I hope it's a good service.
Wow, that looks really promising and I have a feeling they'll be getting a lot of my money in the future.
I hope they have Freespace 2.
They're getting the core Interplay games, the Freespace series is amongst them, I'm pretty certain. They should also getting the Fallout and Descent series. IIRC, they may also be getting the MDK series, and hopefully Earthworm Jim.
Some people just can't actually afford the games and think "Well, when I have a better job, I'll go back and pay for it."
Which again, is pretty shitty justification no? If you can't afford nice things, you don't get to have nice things. That's how our society works. You don't just get to have things because you want them. The guy who said "I downloaded Oblivion to try it out and deleted it after a week" is a fun example too. You can finish and conquer around 90% of games, including Oblivion, in a week. You didn't download it to try it out. You just took it.
If you want to try a game out, buy it. If you want to know if you'll like it before you buy it, read reviews, ask your friends if it is good. If you don't want to play games without demos, just don't play them. Do your part in telling devs that not having a demo is uncool. If you buy the game and hate it, that's your bad luck. I bought Hitman 2, it sucked ass, I still have it and I'm not particularly mad because I understand that every time you buy a game you run the risk of it sucking ass.
No, if you can't affoard nice things you can't have nice things because that would be stealing. A poor person pirating a game does not steal anything, so clearly you are wrong because they *can* have the game. If they couldn't have the game, they wouldn't pirate it, but they can. Want to see what happens in a worse economy? Look at any third world nation, all games are almost exclusively pirated. I've heard a few blurbs about how "all that piracy hurts the industry". How the heck do a hundred thousand people who make $2 a day hurt the industry? Piracy is copywrite infringement, not stealing.
Mostly I would pirate a game if I already own it on 360 (although I will most certainly be re-buying gta4 to play it online). Which is a smart decision, it didn't take long to find out that Mass Effect PC wasn't any different and modding was completely unsupported, I didn't even have to pirate it - just reading the forums revealed that.
The other thing would be something like, if I've heard mixed things about a game. VTM:Bloodlines I pirated, Fallout Tactics I pirated. I ended up buying both games, and the fallout pack that had 1 and 2 as well.
Most pirates cannot affoard the games they are pirating, labeling them as thieves completely ignores the definition of the word theft. Anyone else deserves some malice, if you can affoard a game buy it.
That said, the industry itself has proven time and again that fighting piracy by lacing their games with more and more copy protection doesn't work. If you haven't read the writeup by Stardock's CEO, you should. The more you demonize your consumer, the worse your consumer will treat you. If the RIAA and MPAA haven't proven that, I don't know what will.
Sorry, I should have been more specific and said "if you can't afford something without resorting to illegal means to aquire it" because I always forget to account for the fact that some people are awkward and obtuse.
We're not talking about third world countries where piracy is rampant. We're talking about first world countries. If you can afford a PC and and broadband internet connection, you can afford the game. People who say "but I can't afford the game so I download it! no one loses anything!" are kidding themselves. You can afford it, you just choose not to because you know you can get it for free. If you couldn't pirate it, you would either simply not have it or you would make some kind of sacrifice so you have the money to buy it. I repeat, the "I can't afford games so I pirate them" excuse is bunk.
Although I would say that if theres some intrusive and/or annoying copy protection/DRM etc attached to a game that pirating can get round relatively simply (especially if its seen as easier to pirate than jump through the hoops that the game makes you), then you might start getting some pirating who would otherwise buy.
I don't pirate, but damn if Battlefield 2 hasn't been making me envy pirates lately. It's got bugs out the ass, it requires you to keep the disc in the drive despite being almost completely multiplayer (this is a reasonable complaint on a laptop), and Punkbuster both doesn't stop cheating and DOES add another layer that can fail.
I may not pirate games, but I do avoid PC games that have extremely strict DRM because I don't want to pay for the experience of having my computer fucked with (SecuROM once made it impossible for me to delete executables). I can sympathize with people who want to play a game but don't want to put up with that bullshit.
I can also see the argument for pirating portable games (carrying around a memory stick is much more convenient than carrying around ten games), but that's a bit fuzzier.
I think "people don't want to pay for it" is most definitely the biggest reason, but sometimes piracy can theoretically provide a better experience than buying the game, even when removing money from the equation entirely. This is why I love Stardock.
Posts
And stuff like Starforce makes shit much more likely to happen.
Und mine
But no, you're right, it's purely because we're completely incompetent at using PC's that Starforce completely screwed up our systems. I'm glad you're around to tell us these things.
EDIT: Beat'd.
Well I suck.
While I agree that piracy is wrong in all cases, finding everything in the bargain bin is practically impossible. I know because I only buy things I find in the bargain bins. I have little money but I deal with it. Everything from Shadow of the Colossus, Final Fantasy tactics advance and Metroids of all flavors have been found, bought and played.
But it's really-super-mega-hyper-turbo-champions-edition-lucky to find any of nintendos a-list titles for 10$. I managed to find Advance Wars 2 for the gba for about 8$ new, but that was without the box and about a month ago, a couple of years after it was released. Super Mario Sunshine is, around here, still 30$ used. But someday it will be cheaper! I hope.
I never said that starforce was only a threat if you were stupid.
Just that it isnt inherently awful because a minority have issues with it.
Or to put it another way:
Why would these companies not use starforce when less than 1% of their customers complain?
I pirate stuff a fair amount. Not regularly, but maybe a game every two months or so. However, I don't think my responses will really help you. I pirate, because it's free. I don't try to justify it morally, I know what I'm doing is wrong. But I can get away with it, so I do.
However, I do buy retail copies of games and movies I genuinely think are fantastic. If I play a game or watch a TV series which I think is just brilliant, I'll purchase it. KotOR, Mass Effect, STALKER, for example. All of these I pirated, played, then paid for.
Writing that paragraph above did me think of one potential answer to your question there - make your game fantastic. Not that that answer's particularly worth much either, as it's unlikely you'd deliberately make a game that you didn't think was great.
The Steam distribution service, however, I support. I tend to pay for Steam games, as those can be directly downloaded quickly, and (compared to most other games, particularly store-bought) are very cheap. They're constantly throwing out offers and reduced prices.
I think those two points would greatly aid against piracy - quick online download, and lower prices (aided by bundles and other offers) - both supplied by online distribution.
Copy protection or Online verification have never stopped me from pirating - someone'll always make a crack for those, there's always a way round. The best way to avoid privacy is to make your games more easily accessible and cheaper.
As something of an aside, I'm very much anti-piracy, despite pirating myself. It's that traditional human hipocracy - I don't want a global energy crisis, but I'll drive anyway because it's quicker.
Stardock have had more people buy the digital download version from their site than they have had downloads of the game itself.
Ie, people pirated it then 'upgraded' by buying a legitimate key to play online.
do you not see that as somewhat reprehensible?
Eventually, I got really disgusted with myself. I wiped all the pirated crap off my computer, bought whatever ones I actually cared about, and never pirated a game again.
Stardock is indeed crazy awesome. I really hope Impulse takes off for them. Between that and GoG, it really does look as if some devs understand "Mo DRM!" isn't necessarily the wholly ideal scenario.
They are
Virtual Console?
That is not strictly as a result of them being DRM free.
It has more to do with them being incredibly niche games.
As a proportion of sales Stardock games are pirated as much as anyone else.
The Virtual Console muddies the water on this issue.
But don't you miss that *Bzzzzzzzz* as the drive spins up to 3 jillion revs / second?
Yeah, like I say, I realise it's completely hypocritical. There's no defense for my actions.
Similarly niche games with restrictive DRM are pirated far more though.
The virtual console kind of sinks the "but you can't buy them any more!" argument for a lot of emulators. A lot of PC games are literally impossible to find though, and are never coming out again.
There are a number of console games that are never coming out of the legal hellhole they're stuck in, either. I can't get too mad at anyone who pirates stuff you cannot legitimately buy, provided you shell out the damn money immediately if it ever gets a rerelease.
Well then it comes down to the market they are targeting and the mindset of their consumer.
Yes, having no protection at all on their stuff is an attractive proposition for consumers, and has certainly increased their sales, it hasnt magically converted pirates over to being fully paid up customers.
It does indeed.
A better question would be, should it be illegal to play an emulated ROM of a game that you already own?
I'm actually a pretty big fan of Final Fantasy Tactics. The thing is, I've never personally owned a playstation. I actually went out and bought a copy of FFT, ripped it to my HDD (a lot of people don't realise this, but playstation discs are just standard CD's, they can be read by a standard PC drive (although it's not necessarily recommended, as it can cause damage if you do it too often IIRC)), and played it fullscreen with anti-aliasing maxed out. It was awesome. As far as I'm concerned, Sony was making a loss on the playstation as it is and making their profit off the games, so I was effectively giving them more money than if I had bought a playstation and played the game that way.
Weird to think of it that way.
So stop doing it and revel in instantly becoming a better person.
Yeah, that never made any sense to me. You, as a publisher, are spending money to add something that no customer wants, and that will not exist on the inevitable pirated version. Corporate stupidity at its finest, really.
Awesome. I hope it's a good service.
Wow, that looks really promising and I have a feeling they'll be getting a lot of my money in the future.
I hope they have Freespace 2.
They're getting the core Interplay games, the Freespace series is amongst them, I'm pretty certain. They should also getting the Fallout and Descent series. IIRC, they may also be getting the MDK series, and hopefully Earthworm Jim.
No, if you can't affoard nice things you can't have nice things because that would be stealing. A poor person pirating a game does not steal anything, so clearly you are wrong because they *can* have the game. If they couldn't have the game, they wouldn't pirate it, but they can. Want to see what happens in a worse economy? Look at any third world nation, all games are almost exclusively pirated. I've heard a few blurbs about how "all that piracy hurts the industry". How the heck do a hundred thousand people who make $2 a day hurt the industry? Piracy is copywrite infringement, not stealing.
Mostly I would pirate a game if I already own it on 360 (although I will most certainly be re-buying gta4 to play it online). Which is a smart decision, it didn't take long to find out that Mass Effect PC wasn't any different and modding was completely unsupported, I didn't even have to pirate it - just reading the forums revealed that.
The other thing would be something like, if I've heard mixed things about a game. VTM:Bloodlines I pirated, Fallout Tactics I pirated. I ended up buying both games, and the fallout pack that had 1 and 2 as well.
Most pirates cannot affoard the games they are pirating, labeling them as thieves completely ignores the definition of the word theft. Anyone else deserves some malice, if you can affoard a game buy it.
That said, the industry itself has proven time and again that fighting piracy by lacing their games with more and more copy protection doesn't work. If you haven't read the writeup by Stardock's CEO, you should. The more you demonize your consumer, the worse your consumer will treat you. If the RIAA and MPAA haven't proven that, I don't know what will.
I.E. Distribution network for a game that you will offer more content for.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
We're not talking about third world countries where piracy is rampant. We're talking about first world countries. If you can afford a PC and and broadband internet connection, you can afford the game. People who say "but I can't afford the game so I download it! no one loses anything!" are kidding themselves. You can afford it, you just choose not to because you know you can get it for free. If you couldn't pirate it, you would either simply not have it or you would make some kind of sacrifice so you have the money to buy it. I repeat, the "I can't afford games so I pirate them" excuse is bunk.
I don't pirate, but damn if Battlefield 2 hasn't been making me envy pirates lately. It's got bugs out the ass, it requires you to keep the disc in the drive despite being almost completely multiplayer (this is a reasonable complaint on a laptop), and Punkbuster both doesn't stop cheating and DOES add another layer that can fail.
I may not pirate games, but I do avoid PC games that have extremely strict DRM because I don't want to pay for the experience of having my computer fucked with (SecuROM once made it impossible for me to delete executables). I can sympathize with people who want to play a game but don't want to put up with that bullshit.
I can also see the argument for pirating portable games (carrying around a memory stick is much more convenient than carrying around ten games), but that's a bit fuzzier.
I think "people don't want to pay for it" is most definitely the biggest reason, but sometimes piracy can theoretically provide a better experience than buying the game, even when removing money from the equation entirely. This is why I love Stardock.